Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: bj on July 30, 2012, 09:49:46 am
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Anyone got a REMOTE kill switch on a gasser?
I have fitted external MANUAL kill switches on my petrol boats but would like to fit an electronic switch just in case I need to kill the engine when it is out in the middle of the pond.
Found this http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17063__Opto_Gas_Kill_Switch.html (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__17063__Opto_Gas_Kill_Switch.html) but ............
My engine electronics are a separate "magneto" system and not as such controlled from the Tx. This switch seems to be for CDI systems as in [url]http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uploads/502481409X7478X2.pdf[
Any suggestions to resolve the query would be welcome.
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Watch this space - we have such a beast under development. Hopefully will be available before the Blackpool show in October.
Dave @ ACTion
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cool would be very interested in this dave :-)) as would menny in the race scene ime sure
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If I need to kill the motor in the middle of the lake then I close the throttle and kill the engine ;) ;) I set idle using the throttle trim and the idle screw on the carb is thrown away.
Does your radio have a failsafe function? Should my radio lose contact on the lake then the receiver shuts the engine down, had this function on my last FM set and the present 2.4 set. Nothing to do with the electrics, the servo closes the throttle and kills the engine.
This does not work in the case of a total power loss so you could fit a black box (http://zenoah-blackbox.co.uk/support.htm) to cover that scenario.
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This does not work in the case of a total power loss so you could fit a black box (http://zenoah-blackbox.co.uk/support.htm) to cover that scenario.
Definitely a good belt and braces. Most complete runaways I've seen have been caused by sudden loss of radio power at the Rx end. Fatigued wiring on soldered connections, corroded connectors, corroded switches etc. Not to mention "radio not switched on" incidents. I would think that the black box could also be called "relay in a box". I doubt that it's anything more - except perhaps some suppression on the relay coil, but that's not to take anything away from it. K.I.S.S principles apply !!
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P106 will be that "relay in a box". We know what we're doing...................
DM
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P106 will be that "relay in a box". We know what we're doing...................
DM
Hi Dave, just to clarify - in case it's needed. My "relay in a box" comment was referring to the black box unit which Webby linked. Solely because it only provides protection against power failure. Still only a guess, because I haven't seen one, and there are obviously other ways to do the same thing. I have seen one or two of your products, and certainly wasn't trying to take anything away from Action, or Action's capabilities.
Regards:
Ian
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No offence taken. Just my clumsy way of saying that it will also trip out the spark if the Rx becomes disconnected.
DM
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The "Black Box" is the simplest of those I have seen available currently and complements the modern inbuilt radio failsafes very well.
There are a number of others out there that I have heard good things about:
Isamtech, Germany (http://www.isamtec.de/isamtec/Killswitch_NXT_Benzin.html)
Killer RC, USA (http://www.killerrc.com/products/gas_killswitch.php)
Warehouse Hobbies, USA (http://www.whhonline.com/product-p/acc1s15.htm)
Finally a comparison between a number of types: Kill switches. (http://www.asaad.com/killswitches.htm)
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I have been running a prototype Action for some years now. If you throttle servo packs up, If your power is lost due to a plug getting loss , you hit the kill switch well before the failsafe kicks in then this will do the job. I can remember my Gas Rigger on Llanberis lake a few years back stuck on 1/3th because the servo decided to pack up and stop moving. Now thats when you need a kill switch unit fitted.
I look forwards to seeing the new unit very soon Dave.
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I have just heard from Wombat this evening that the prototype P106 units are now ready for evaluation and review. More later.
DM
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The "Black Box" is the simplest of those I have seen available currently and complements the modern inbuilt radio failsafes very well.
There are a number of others out there that I have heard good things about:
Isamtech, Germany (http://www.isamtec.de/isamtec/Killswitch_NXT_Benzin.html)
Killer RC, USA (http://www.killerrc.com/products/gas_killswitch.php)
Warehouse Hobbies, USA (http://www.whhonline.com/product-p/acc1s15.htm)
Finally a comparison between a number of types: Kill switches. (http://www.asaad.com/killswitches.htm)
I did write "My engine electronics are a separate "magneto" system and not as such controlled from the Tx."
Most seem to be for CDI systems and only the Super Bee Gas Kill Switch seems to be a type to suit my application.
Roll on sucessful testing .........
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What motor and ignition are you using? Pictures of your set up would be useful.
......and not as such controlled from the Tx......
I am not sure what you mean, my ignition (Zenoah) is not controlled by the TX nor any I know of. Your wish to stop the motor in the middle of the lake (should you so wish) is covered by closing the throttle, closed carb = no petrol/air mix = engine stops..... You should set idle with your throttle trim on the transmitter so cutting the throttle can completely close the carb. The idle screw on the carb is thrown away. This is done by all gas boaters I know.
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What motor and ignition are you using? Pictures of your set up would be useful.
I am not sure what you mean, my ignition (Zenoah) is not controlled by the TX nor any I know of. Your wish to stop the motor in the middle of the lake (should you so wish) is covered by closing the throttle, closed carb = no petrol/air mix = engine stops..... You should set idle with your throttle trim on the transmitter so cutting the throttle can completely close the carb. The idle screw on the carb is thrown away. This is done by all gas boaters I know.
Yes this is fine but what happens when your throttle servo packs up at full chat and will not move the carb to close it!!!!!!! Do you keep on driving till you run out of fuel, drive over some rag placed in the water, drive it into the bankside??????? None is a good option. A working kill switch gives you a chance the kill the ignition by means of shorting out the black wire to earth on the red coil on your engine. Every Zen & other engines i have seen has this cut out wire on the coil which would be conected to a switch on the machine ie Grass cutting stuff, chainsaw to cut the engine out.
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Bill no argument from me as regards using a kill switch. I guess I was thinking that he wants to do it whilst in control not in the case of a runaway. In that case a third channel kill switch on the ignition is a good solution.
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Forgive my ignorance in this matter but the way I have read this is you would like to have a switch to turn off (or switch to NC ie to ground) if the need requires.
So could you not use a normal RC switch with a relay and have the NC set to shut off the coil. if the Receiver looses its signal I am sure that the relay will return to NC hence stopping the motor and if you need to you can switch your transmitter channel to KILL the motor if required
Or have I got the wrong end of this thread....
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Forgive my ignorance in this matter but the way I have read this is you would like to have a switch to turn off (or switch to NC ie to ground) if the need requires.
So could you not use a normal RC switch with a relay and have the NC set to shut off the coil. if the Receiver looses its signal I am sure that the relay will return to NC hence stopping the motor and if you need to you can switch your transmitter channel to KILL the motor if required
Or have I got the wrong end of this thread....
Yes you are right. However the new unit covers alot more. If failsafe setting is reached the unit will cut the engine. If you lose power for what ever resson it will cut the engine and you can you the switch on a spare channel to cut the engine. Trust me having a unit like this in a race petrol boat /race boat can only bring you a bit of added safety. I have used a Action prototype one for the last 2 years and it has proved its worth several times. One day i hope the BMPRS & others will not let petrol boats on the water without one of these units or something like it fitted, 52" of pertol boat out of control is not funny.
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Yes you are right. However the new unit covers alot more. If failsafe setting is reached the unit will cut the engine. If you lose power for what ever resson it will cut the engine and you can you the switch on a spare channel to cut the engine. Trust me having a unit like this in a race petrol boat /race boat can only bring you a bit of added safety. I have used a Action prototype one for the last 2 years and it has proved its worth several times. One day i hope the BMPRS & others will not let petrol boats on the water without one of these units or something like it fitted, 52" of pertol boat out of control is not funny.
What about runaway Nitro boats ? :} Don't just concentrate on Petrol, what about runaway Electric boats as well ! :} A runaway 80mph fast electric missile isn't funny either :o
Anyway I'm sure it's been said before but if a failsafe (whether it be a separate unit or one in the TX/Rx) is set up correctly it should shut down the throttle to tickover or completely stop the engine and also throw the rudder to either port or starboard. We need to look at the reasons for a boat going into failsafe mode or indeed runaway mode in the first place: :-))
Poor set up
Poor maintenance: inc. low battery/forgot to charge them/corroded connections (made worse if running in sea water), incompatible crystals in the Tx/Rx (40/27mhz), forgetting to extend the Tx aerial, blimey the list goes on......human error
Forgetting to switch the Rx on....human error :}
As a matter of course when racing at BMPRS meetings OOD's normally check boats for failsafe operation and indeed will not let a boat race if any glitching,failsafe not operating or other failure is noticed :-))
I'm sure we will in the course of time evaluate new products as they come onto the market to see if they can improve our already high standard of safety :-))
Regards
Scoop
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What about runaway Nitro boats ?
Not a problem, Killswitch Nitro. (http://www.isamtec.de/isamtec/Killswitch_Nitro.html) Electric not a clue {:-{ {:-{
I have seen that many with twin hydros in the USA run 2 receivers and 2 battery packs.
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Forgetting to switch the Rx on....human error :}
There you go....human error, I of course meant to say Tx and or Rx :}
Scoop :embarrassed:
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So as a KISS idea then a RC switch with a relay that requires signal to hold open the relay contacts would work, if the signal is not there then the NC circuit leaves the ignition system to ground = no go. if the power to the system fails then the relay returns to NC = no go
You would need to activate the RC switch to get an open circuit in order to start your motor and in order to activate that switch you need to have the Tx and RX systems turned on. turn either OFF and the relay will close and so motor stops
R
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So as a KISS idea then a RC switch with a relay that requires signal to hold open the relay contacts would work, if the signal is not there then the NC circuit leaves the ignition system to ground = no go. if the power to the system fails then the relay returns to NC = no go
You would need to activate the RC switch to get an open circuit in order to start your motor and in order to activate that switch you need to have the Tx and RX systems turned on. turn either OFF and the relay will close and so motor stops
R
Correct :-))
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Correct :-))
....unless your radio has a failsafe which stops all the servos at the last known good signal - apart from the throttle (which is generally set to run to a slow/stop position). The other standard failsafe situation returns all channels except throttle to a neutral position. Either of these would allow the relay switch to stay closed i.e. the spark would not be killed. We have tried to cater for all eventualities with this unit.
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if its a petrol 2 strok why not just earth the engine via a micro switch operated by servo
or use what the full size outboards use for a kill switch, simple pull off toggle to kill the engine.
phill
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So as a KISS idea then a RC switch with a relay that requires signal to hold open the relay contacts would work, if the signal is not there then the NC circuit leaves the ignition system to ground = no go. if the power to the system fails then the relay returns to NC = no go
North Queensland RC used to do a little unit that did exactly this, I have one on a Zenoah 26 in a model aircraft. Unfortunately they are no longer producing them.
The only alternative that I am aware of is to build your own using the RC CAM Bit-Switch (http://www.rc-cam.com/bitsw.htm) circuit driving a relay (example S2 on the RC-CAM page).
Steve
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North Queensland RC used to do a little unit that did exactly this, I have one on a Zenoah 26 in a model aircraft. Unfortunately they are no longer producing them.
The only alternative that I am aware of is to build your own using the RC CAM Bit-Switch (http://www.rc-cam.com/bitsw.htm) circuit driving a relay (example S2 on the RC-CAM page).
Steve
Please see reply #22. If a single relay switch is really what you want then this one has both NO and NC contacts - and doesn't involve strapping a microswitch on top of a servo (sooooooooo crude) - http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P43.pdf (http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P43.pdf)
DM
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Hi everyone,
If I have a boat with a petrol engine with no form of kill switch, what do I need to add one? I currently have a 2-channel radio and I would like to keep it if possible. I have seen some Opto kill switches but I am unsure if this is the right thing and how would I wire it in?
Reece
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I would always fit a kill to a petrol engine, but I am from a model aircraft background and I don't know if this is normal practice for boats.
You haven't said if the engine is electronic ignition or magneto.
Electronic ignition - Put an opto cut (either the Rcexl (http://www.innovative-rc.com/rcexl-opto-engine-kill-switch-p-411.html) or the Smart-Fly (http://www.innovative-rc.com/smartfly-ignition-cutoff-p-45.html)) between the ignition battery and the ignition unit.
Magneto ignition is more problematic. You need a relay. NQRC used to do a nice unit, but they aren't operating any more. One of the Action (http://www.component-shop.co.uk/html/switches1.html) switches will probably do the job, but I don't know anything about them. If you are up to it you could homebrew one using the RC Cam bit switch (http://www.rc-cam.com/bitsw.htm) design.
You will need another channel to drive the opto cut or relay unit.
HTH
Steve
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Hi Steve, thanks for the quick reply. It is an electronic ignition so I just need another channel and an Opto Cut. Thanks again, Reece
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you could use a small servo and a micro switch to ground the ignition out.
or look at battleswitch or pico switches
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Sit tight - we're working on one.
Dave M + Wombat
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There are a few available from the simpler failsafes that work by shutting the throttle with loss of signal and low battery to more sophisticated that kill the throttle even if power is lost.
Different types can be found at Prestwich (http://www.prestwich.ndirect.co.uk/radioservo.htm) (loss of signal, low power), Blackbox (http://zenoah-blackbox.co.uk/Products.htm), UK (loss of power), Isamtec (http://www.isamtec.de/isamtec/Killswitch_NXT_Benzin.html), Germany (on demand, loss of signal, interference, low power, loss of power) and Killer RC (http://www.killerrc.com/product-category/kill-switches/gas/), USA (on demand, loss of signal, interference, low power, loss of power).
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you could use a small servo and a micro switch to ground the ignition out.
The problem with this is that it doesn't kill the engine if there is no power to the receiver.
Steve
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Thank you all for your advice. I just really had no idea! Expect more silly questions in the future! Reece
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The problem with this is that it doesn't kill the engine if there is no power to the receiver.
Steve
a lot of electronic failsafes of this nature thou dont work with a lot of 2.4ghz unit especially the futaba ones,
the method of a small micro switch with a return spring does try to offer an alternative that if set up correctly should work should power be cut
i did for get to mention the spring in the above post !
mark
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Sit tight - we're working on one.
Dave M + Wombat
will these work with 2.4ghz futaba systems ?
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will these work with 2.4ghz futaba systems ?
Yep - that's one of our test radios. Test units will be sent out shortly.
DM
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a lot of electronic failsafes of this nature thou dont work with a lot of 2.4ghz unit especially the futaba ones
The Rcexl and Smart-Fly opto kills work with Spektrum (I have them in planes). The only issue with the Rcexl is that I wouldn't use it if the receiver power rail is > 6V (although I am aware of people who do). I can't comment on Futaba.
Steve
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The Rcexl and Smart-Fly opto kills work with Spektrum (I have them in planes). The only issue with the Rcexl is that I wouldn't use it if the receiver power rail is > 6V (although I am aware of people who do). I can't comment on Futaba.
Steve
due to the nature of the way the futaba fasst receivers work if the work on spectrum they wont work on futaba !! not sure about the other way round !!
i looked in to this when i first moved to 2.4ghz back in 2008
i know action electronics tried to do a failsafe cut out a few years ago but not heard much more about it !
the problem is now futaba have started to introduce other new handsets that have a different carrier not sure if theres other problems there ?
mark
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i know action electronics tried to do a failsafe cut out a few years ago but not heard much more about it !
This had been withdrawn from the market before we took over ACTion in 2007 and was a general failsafe unit, not an engine-specific job.
The unit we are working on will not necessarily be sold as an ACTion item. It has an on-board relay so will cut off the ignition if Rx power is lost. It will also cut off when a valid throttle signal is lost or when a failsafe-level signal is received or when a command to kill the ignition is received via a second channel.
We will test it on Futaba S-FHSS and FASST, Planet T5 and Spektrum DX5e and DX6i sets. Unfortunately Futaba have started mucking about with decades-old industry standards and we may have to offer different versions for their various sets.
Watch this space.
DM
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I've used the Super Killer Bee on both Futaba Fasst and Spektrum DX7 and DX7s without issues. when my dx7 was going "xxxxx" it use to cut the motor out... It was doing its job...when I changed to the newer dx7s it was perfect again.
Can't fault the thing... They also have a configuration with 2 channel radios so it will cut out if it detects loss of signal.
Nice piece of kit. Shame it is'ent waterproof.
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Update after a day's testing:
SparkOut works 100% with FASST and S-FHSS Futaba systems. With FHSS it works OK as a straightforward cut-out on failsafe signal or power loss. It just doesn't permit the facility of using a second channel to cut the ignition by flipping a Tx switch. I've also had 100% results with a Spektrum DX5e and a Planet T5.
Pre-production units will shortly be going out for evaluation and Dr Wombat will have a look at the FHSS limitation.
BTW the unit can be fitted into a small ABS case or wrapped in heat-shrink. Access is required to a small tactile switch for programming but it's no great job to waterproof it again with a piece of tape.
DM
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Sounds a nice bit of kit.:)
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For further discussion please see the research and development section.
Topics merged.
Ken
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Update after a day's testing:
SparkOut works 100% with FASST and S-FHSS Futaba systems. With FHSS it works OK as a straightforward cut-out on failsafe signal or power loss. It just doesn't permit the facility of using a second channel to cut the ignition by flipping a Tx switch. I've also had 100% results with a Spektrum DX5e and a Planet T5.
Pre-production units will shortly be going out for evaluation and Dr Wombat will have a look at the FHSS limitation.
BTW the unit can be fitted into a small ABS case or wrapped in heat-shrink. Access is required to a small tactile switch for programming but it's no great job to waterproof it again with a piece of tape.
DM
Finally , I started the thread and now I can add that I have also tested one if Dave Milbourne's "SparkOut" units and it does work with a HiTec Optic 6 2.4GHz Tx.
I did have some problems to get the set up correct, possibly because I already have an external "kill" button fitted. I found space in my existing radio box for the small assembly. True that I have only tested it in my garage but it will hit the water later this week. I am confident that this unit will do exactly what I want and make my boat safer at speed.
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This Kill Switch is now available from Doc and Dave Electronics. Please see posting on Traders board and also website for further details http://docanddave.co.uk/ (http://docanddave.co.uk/)
DM
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Forgot to mention that the FHSS limitation referred to above is nowt to do with our piece of kit. It's the Futaba 6J which is the problem, in as much as it only allows four channels in its FHSS configuration. If you switch to S-FHSS it's fine. You won't find this anywhere in their documentation.
DM
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Having just bought my first gasser ( two in fact, Zenoah G260PUMs both going cheap on Ebay) this thread got me thinking re the failsafe requirement under BMPRS racing rules. Having had a look around I bought one of these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111113338056?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111113338056?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)
It promises to be able to be used on a switched channel as a kill switch, also working when loss of signal is detected or loss of power to the Rx.
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Thanks for this, Spearfish. Our prices have had to be 'revised' - a lot! Units now £20 (4-cell) and £24 (5-cell +). Both include UK P&P.
It's not been a good day.......... :((
DM
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Thanks for this, Spearfish. Our prices have had to be 'revised' - a lot! Units now £20 (4-cell) and £24 (5-cell +). Both include UK P&P.
It's not been a good day.......... :((
DM
Hi DM,
Can I assume from your remarks that what I have bought is one of yours?
I have had the chance to try the little beast out on the Futaba set up that I intend using with the Zen. It is a T6EX transmitter (2.4 Ghz) using a FrSky compatible Rx on 6v. With the failsafe turned off on the transmitter, you can set the RX to use what control positions you want in the event of a loss of signal, e.g throttle fully closed, full right rudder or whatever.
Using this unit , I can switch off the motor using Ch5 at will as this is the 2 position channel intended for undercarriage on this Tx when used in a plane. On switching off the Tx to mimick loss of signal, the throttle closes and the unit activates and cuts the ignition to stop the Zen by earthing the black wire from the coil. Just like it says on the tin or rather the extremely clear instructions provided with the unit!. Really very pleased with this. Now just need to buy a second one to go with the other Zen.
I was wondering how best to mount it close to the engine while keeping it clean and dry. Just realised (being a photographic dinosaur still using 35mm film) that it fits very easily into a 35mm film container which should be very easy to postion in the boat and to seal. Fits into one of those Terry spring tool clips for easy access.
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Your transmitter allready has a built in failsafe in the event of a loss of signal only thing it wont do is if there a loss of power it wont work,im asuming this kill switch will do that ?.
Ive never personally used a kill switch I just use the built in failsafe on the radio,ive lost signal once in that time and it worked fine, but ive never lost power all my connections are fitted and held with small zip ties so they cannot come apart unless I want them to,not saying these aren't a good idea just saying ive never used one..
Mart
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Hi Mart
The failsafe will close the throttle to it's lowest setting , which may or may not be low enough to completely kill the motor.
This switch gives me the option of 1) killing the motor at will from a switched channel if I need to ( panic button?)
`2) When the failsafe operates the throttle closes AND the ignition gets killed so should be safe.
I haven't tested it yet by pulling the RX battery out while it is operating. The instructions do state that it does kill the motor since the contacts on the gismo go to the same state as they do when signal is lost or the Tx 5th channel switch is used.
Not too worried if this does cut the engine or not as like you I have never lost a battery connection and use largish capacity Rx Nimh's with those little battery condition indicator LED gismos fitted on most boats. Just have to say that the FrSky compatible receiver I am trying seems to have a better choice of failsafe options than the Futaba receiver that came with the TX.
In my last post, I took Dave's comments at face value and assumed he meant thanks for publicising one of his bits of kit. Rereading it, I think that he was being cryptic and wasn't too pleased that I had highlighted some other bit of kit that was cheaper. I am sure that his works just fine in the situations that it was designed for, I was just pointing out that I had found something that suited me and that it worked with Futaba FASST kit which was something queried in earlier posts. Not trying to upset anyone
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Its not hard to set the failsafe to kill the engine,you just set it so it completely close the throttle,works for me anyway ok2 .
Mart
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Its not hard to set the failsafe to kill the engine,you just set it so it completely close the throttle,works for me anyway ok2 .
Mart
Hi Mart,
I have no experience with the modern gassers, so I am not sure just how effective the carbs are in shutting down the motor completely. With my old Gannet, once started it was very reluctant to stop without a manual kill switch.The old carb on that didn't really like shutting all the way! but hopefully things have progressed since then
With this , I can be sure of it. Also the Futaba Tx/Rx combo I have only has failsafe on one channel (3) whereas , if I kill the failsafe on the Tx, the Frsky Rx gives me failsafe on all 6 channels so I can set the rudder to go hard over one way to circle the boat as well as throttle close and kill switch operating.
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Usually on the carb I remove the idle screw if it has one, throw it away then I set throttle to fully close the carb,engine will not run simple.Idle screw is not needed it gets in the way ,once removed carb can close properly.
Mart
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Having just bought my first gasser ( two in fact, Zenoah G260PUMs both going cheap on Ebay) this thread got me thinking re the failsafe requirement under BMPRS racing rules. Having had a look around I bought one of these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111113338056?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111113338056?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649)
It promises to be able to be used on a switched channel as a kill switch, also working when loss of signal is detected or loss of power to the Rx.
these dont work with futaba fasst system or silimar ! i have checked the out the best failsafe by far on the market is the sparkout by docndave
mark
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these dont work with futaba fasst system or silimar ! i have checked the out the best failsafe by far on the market is the sparkout by docndave
mark
I don't wish to get into an arguement, but it works perfectly with my 2.4ghz 6EX tx and both the FrSky rx's that I have