Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Bryan Young on April 29, 2007, 06:33:15 PM

Title: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Bryan Young on April 29, 2007, 06:33:15 PM
I know that this is a model boat forum...but recent threads have gone beyond that and have touched (a euphemism) on other subjects. Following on from the "Cornwall" debacle and the hoo-ha re. the military hospitals....now it is the turn of the RAF.
At a moments notice it would seem that all Jaguar aircraft are now grounded and awaiting the scrap-man.
What is the "UK" left with?
A few old Nimrods that have their own well publicised problems.
Tornado aircraft that are few and far between.
Harriers that were taken off the Navy to bolster RAF numbers (and robbing the RN of any "fast jet" aircraft).
Hercules? Tridents (courtesy of Freddie Laker). Leased (from the US) Galaxies, any VC10s left?
Given the problems that have beset the world in the last few years it really beggars belief that "our" government can behave in such a crass manner. And here is me thinking that I still believe that the prime purpose of government is to protect its citizens.
How naive can I get. BY
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: DickyD on April 29, 2007, 06:36:17 PM
Hate to say it Bryan, but I agree with you. ;D

Richard ;)
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: John W E on April 29, 2007, 06:41:14 PM
Hi all

but what is supposed to happen with the new 'Joint Strike Fighter' which was supposed to come in and replace the Harrier and also what about the 'Euro Fighter' what is happening with that now?  We should have stuck with the TSR2.

aye
john e

bluebird
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: DickyD on April 29, 2007, 06:43:29 PM
Hi all

but what is supposed to happen with the new 'Joint Strike Fighter' which was supposed to come in and replace the Harrier and also what about the 'Euro Fighter' what is happening with that now?  We should have stuck with the TSR2.

aye
john e

bluebird
What a memory, I'm impressed.
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on April 29, 2007, 06:57:40 PM
Hi Bryan
The Jaguar fleet should of been grounded years ago apart from being to
old in the 1st gulf war they have been held together with chewing gum and
double sided sticky tape (kindly donated by Blue peter) the airframe its self was at an
operational end. The squadrons that operated the jaguar are being converted for the typhoon
as that is what is replacing them.
The harriers have NOT been stripped from the navy to bolster the RAF.
What has happend is the same as the helicopters they are coming under a joint
command structure, where as in the case of helicopters everyone is trained together then
army fly army, Navy:Navy etc
The sea Harriers were binned and the Fleet Air arm Pilots fly RAF harriers and the RAF Pilots
are now trained to operate from carriers. The reasoning is the when the JSF arrives it will
be cost effective for all crews to operate from 1 base and trained on 1 aircraft and every one can
operate from any where. The biggest problem is the the Fleet does not have a dedicated air to air interceptor
the RAF harrier doesn't have an inboard combat radar that was the big difference with the sea harrier it was upgraded
with a radar specifically for this reason.
there are VC10's left but will be replaced soon with the new airbus disaster

what was it you were asking about the Hercules but they are still there and operating

If you want anymore RAF questions answered ask away :D
Colin
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on April 29, 2007, 07:03:25 PM
John

the euro-fighter (now called Typhoon) is going operational now

the JSF (Likely to be called Lightning) has been held back due to the
aircraft carrier and the french problem but this has been remedied and is on course for an entry
date of..........the MOD cant say for sure ;D

Colin
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Cargo on April 29, 2007, 07:09:28 PM
The Tornado is still a very good multiple-role fighter.
The Harrier is old but a good plane.
The Jaguars can be replaced by those two fighters.

The way goes, even in the United States, to fewer and multiple role fighters. The JSF for example can be used by the Marines as VTOL fighter, by the Navy as normal fighter on carriers and even by the Air Force.

GB is not capable anymore in developing new fighters all alone. Look at the new Nimrod, they are so expensive...
 
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Daryl on April 29, 2007, 07:30:40 PM
Well said Colin, you got there before me. I have a niece in the RAF and I worked for them for 10yrs. Things are not as black as the media paints it.


Daryl
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on April 29, 2007, 07:45:45 PM
Daryl
If you believe the media then the RAF
are going to war in handgliders ;)
Yes thing could be a lot better but the media portrays to
many thing in a negative light when it comes to the forces
and that is where a lot of things are made to look bad.
I heard this today about the killed Nimrod's crew and a mix up
when returning their bodies on the radio while working.
at 6am it was 1 body involved and a leg or arm put in th wrong coffin
by 4pm all the crews bodies were involved and all were mixed up.

In no way am I saying that it was OK to get this type of mix up but
the question is : if it started with only 1 how come 10hrs later it was all 12 crew?
obviously the medias reporting was not bias or exaggerated
and now how many parents and relatives of service personnel killed in
Iraq and Afghanistan are sitting wondering if there loved one body
was in the correct coffin

Colin

Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Daryl on April 29, 2007, 07:53:45 PM
I have had a few dealings with the media and I have found that they don't like truth getting in the way of a story, some of the distortions I have come across range from exageration to down right lies. Our armed forces do a wonderful job, when ever anything appears on the TV or in the papers its normally a hatchet job on some poor serviceman or woman. Such is the times we live in.

Daryl
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Bryan Young on April 29, 2007, 09:54:42 PM
John

the euro-fighter (now called Typhoon) is going operational now

the JSF (Likely to be called Lightning) has been held back due to the
aircraft carrier and the french problem but this has been remedied and is on course for an entry
date of..........the MOD cant say for sure ;D

Colin
Honestly, do you really think we are going to get 2 aircraft carriers? I think we have been conned again. Where are we going to get the crews from? Where are we going to get the fleet "train" from? Who or what is to protect these carriers? Lots of un-answered questions and I think I know who is going to be hung out to dry. BY
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Shipmate60 on April 29, 2007, 10:48:40 PM
Bryan,
The contract for the new carriers is now being included for a third one.
For the FRENCH.
All the buzzes so far is that they WILL be built, this does leave lots of other operational problems to be solved, but I am still optomistic for now.

Bob
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 29, 2007, 10:58:28 PM
My guess is that the Navy is playing a long game in difficult circumstances. If they can get the carriers then it will be easier to make a case for adequate support vessels for them. Remember the "through deck cruiser"?
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Bryan Young on April 30, 2007, 06:21:19 PM
Hi Bryan
The Jaguar fleet should of been grounded years ago apart from being to
old in the 1st gulf war they have been held together with chewing gum and
double sided sticky tape (kindly donated by Blue peter) the airframe its self was at an
operational end. The squadrons that operated the jaguar are being converted for the typhoon
as that is what is replacing them.
The harriers have NOT been stripped from the navy to bolster the RAF.
What has happend is the same as the helicopters they are coming under a joint
command structure, where as in the case of helicopters everyone is trained together then
army fly army, Navy:Navy etc
The sea Harriers were binned and the Fleet Air arm Pilots fly RAF harriers and the RAF Pilots
are now trained to operate from carriers. The reasoning is the when the JSF arrives it will
be cost effective for all crews to operate from 1 base and trained on 1 aircraft and every one can
operate from any where. The biggest problem is the the Fleet does not have a dedicated air to air interceptor
the RAF harrier doesn't have an inboard combat radar that was the big difference with the sea harrier it was upgraded
with a radar specifically for this reason.
there are VC10's left but will be replaced soon with the new airbus disaster

what was it you were asking about the Hercules but they are still there and operating

If you want anymore RAF questions answered ask away :D
Colin

There is a very clear and distinct difference in "mind-set" between RAF and RN pilots. This was recognized many years ago and led to the formation of the RNFC. Do all the political tinkering you want and you will still have a hiatus between the RAF and the RN...not forgetting the Army. I really cannot envisage the RAF aircrews doing ASW work or doing bouncy landings on a small marginal flight deck in bad weather.
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on April 30, 2007, 06:28:28 PM
Hi Bryan,
The RAF already do ASW work thats one of the Nimrod role.
and look at pictures from 25 years ago on board hermes RAF harriers
deployed on board going to the Falklands complete with crews.
the RAF crews have been deploying routinly for at least 5 years on board the carriers
to get the experience of carrier landing

Colin
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Daryl on April 30, 2007, 09:47:58 PM
My Niece who is in the RAf spent 2yrs at RNAS Yeovilton, cross forces co-operation is the norm now.

Daryl
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Bryan Young on May 01, 2007, 07:30:09 PM
Hi Bryan
The Jaguar fleet should of been grounded years ago apart from being to
old in the 1st gulf war they have been held together with chewing gum and
double sided sticky tape (kindly donated by Blue peter) the airframe its self was at an
operational end. The squadrons that operated the jaguar are being converted for the typhoon
as that is what is replacing them.
The harriers have NOT been stripped from the navy to bolster the RAF.
What has happend is the same as the helicopters they are coming under a joint
command structure, where as in the case of helicopters everyone is trained together then
army fly army, Navy:Navy etc
The sea Harriers were binned and the Fleet Air arm Pilots fly RAF harriers and the RAF Pilots
are now trained to operate from carriers. The reasoning is the when the JSF arrives it will
be cost effective for all crews to operate from 1 base and trained on 1 aircraft and every one can
operate from any where. The biggest problem is the the Fleet does not have a dedicated air to air interceptor
the RAF harrier doesn't have an inboard combat radar that was the big difference with the sea harrier it was upgraded
with a radar specifically for this reason.
there are VC10's left but will be replaced soon with the new airbus disaster

what was it you were asking about the Hercules but they are still there and operating

If you want anymore RAF questions answered ask away :D
Colin

In another message I asked about the commitment by RAF pilots landing on a bouncy small deck. You only referred to carrier landings. The majority of sea-borne aircraft (within the RN) are rotary wing. The RN have (or used to have???) a dedicated ship to train the RN pilots. (Engadine and latterly Argus). These vessels were vital for the training. It is absolutely pointless training pilots for "rough weather" work when undulating green fields are the only substitute.(Tongue in cheek here!). Seriously, the RN and the RAF have different objectives and merging them is only going to reduce them both.
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Bartapuss on May 01, 2007, 10:17:08 PM
Was there not some speculation not so long ago that the American's were thinking of not making the joint strike fighter available to the British navy despite them being involed in the specs for the JSF, as the USA wanted to keep them all for themselves.
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on May 02, 2007, 08:35:42 PM
Was there not some speculation not so long ago that the American's were thinking of not making the joint strike fighter available to the British navy despite them being involved in the specs for the JSF, as the USA wanted to keep them all for themselves.

Hi there Bartapuss,
the answer to your question is a BIG yes. this was because of several reasons
1) Britain wanted the ability to upgrade the JSF in future years on its own. The Americans wanted it so that if upgrades were to take place then firstly the builders would have to give it the OK and they would if it was agreed then upgrade them themselves in America.

This has been resolved and Britain will be able to upgrade them on its own.

2) The French. As bob has already said there is to be 3 carriers built: 2 British + 1 french
like most ships the carriers are being design around their biggest asset in this case the JSF apart of which is the
internal software that allows the ships to remotely upgrade the certain parts of the aircraft inflight. The Americans are concerned
that this information would be incorporated into the third carrier and the french would then sell this information on.

I am unsure where the discusions on this problem are at present

hope this helps
Colin
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on May 02, 2007, 08:56:49 PM
Hi Bryan.
I read your last post. If i am reading you right you are questioning if the RAF Helicopter pilots are able/ willing to land on RN ships.

ALL forces helicopter crews are being taught to land on ships.

this is due to the way the forces are being "reinvented". The forces of today are being set up as an expeditionary force this
means all the crews may be deployed on ships. just recently the big transport helicopters have been deploying on board naval
ships. when it comes to landing on the frigates and destroyers this is really left to the RN helicopters as they are better
equipped for these landings compared to the other services helicopters.

As I said before all the crews are trained to interact and all the training is done to the same level. once they reach the set level
then the crew goes and does a "conversion" course on the helicopter the are to fly. This includes them going and training on
the set tasking on which the will carry out.

I hope this helps
Colin
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 02, 2007, 09:11:30 PM
I'd feel a bit more confident about all this if I hadn't heard (on good authority) that naval officer training is being drastically cut back to save money. e.g. a radar course which is currently 16 sessions is being cut to 6!
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on May 02, 2007, 09:35:57 PM
Hi Colin
think about it the new officers coming thru
just now are the new generation so they can work a glorified playstation when they
arrive ;D
but seriously like you said I know a young boy about to join the army he has been
told that once he completes his basic he will be going for a 4 Wk exercise then deployed
to warmer climates. that in my opinion is not giving him enough training with his unit prior
to deployment

Colin (a differant one)
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 02, 2007, 10:00:34 PM
I suppose it is classed as "on the job training" - maybe a bit like boarding ships off Iran!
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Bryan Young on May 08, 2007, 05:50:48 PM
Hi Bryan.
I read your last post. If i am reading you right you are questioning if the RAF Helicopter pilots are able/ willing to land on RN ships.

ALL forces helicopter crews are being taught to land on ships.

this is due to the way the forces are being "reinvented". The forces of today are being set up as an expeditionary force this
means all the crews may be deployed on ships. just recently the big transport helicopters have been deploying on board naval
ships. when it comes to landing on the frigates and destroyers this is really left to the RN helicopters as they are better
equipped for these landings compared to the other services helicopters.

As I said before all the crews are trained to interact and all the training is done to the same level. once they reach the set level
then the crew goes and does a "conversion" course on the helicopter the are to fly. This includes them going and training on
the set tasking on which the will carry out.

I hope this helps
Colin
I am not trying to be argumentative here..really. I can see "where you are coming from" but surely the "pongoes", "fishheads" and whatever the RAF guys are called now they all go through their own officer training establishments. The "machine" spits them out in its own image. I could be dead wrong here, but I cannot visualise an RAF Officer in RAF uniform having the same impact on an RN crew as an RN officer. The cultures are worlds apart...notwithstanding the levels of ship knowledge etc. required by the RN contingent. During "my day", Army Officers (no matter how good they were at "what they did") had to be led by the hand when confronted by a "ship" situation. Understandably. Same goes for the RAF people. They can all fly, no question about that, but flying is only a (large) part of the job. Perhaps the answer is to go the Canadian way and merge all services. As I said, I am not looking for an argument here, but there does seem to be a lack of "joined up thinking" amongst our top-heavy top brass. (after all, they have their careers to protect)...so no change there.
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: Bryan Young on May 08, 2007, 06:00:21 PM
Was there not some speculation not so long ago that the American's were thinking of not making the joint strike fighter available to the British navy despite them being involed in the specs for the JSF, as the USA wanted to keep them all for themselves.
Hi, George. Read todays newspapers (8th May) and read between the lines re- the US intentions for the JSC. I think they are going to pull the plug. And where does that leave our forward thinking, dumbed down, headline grabbing, cost cutting, money grabbing and morally bankrupt bunch of 5th raters who have the nerve to call themselves the Government of the United Kingdom?
Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on May 09, 2007, 03:51:10 PM
Hi Brian
I don't think you are being argumentative more inquisitive but if you don't want to get
murdered don't post thing like
"Perhaps the answer is to go the Canadian way and merge all services."   ;D (just teasing)

That said did you know the Canadians have hailed it as a disaster in merging the services.
I agree with what you say in that the way that service personnel are trained specifically for their
roles.  For this reason it is clearly written down that regardless of rank if personnel are embarked
on board a ship the senior naval officer is in charge until they reach their destination, same goes with
the RAF if you are getting transported by air.

Colin

Title: Re: RAF Jaguars.
Post by: gingyer on May 09, 2007, 03:57:12 PM
Was there not some speculation not so long ago that the American's were thinking of not making the joint strike fighter available to the British navy despite them being involed in the specs for the JSF, as the USA wanted to keep them all for themselves.
Hi, George. Read todays newspapers (8th May) and read between the lines re- the US intentions for the JSC. I think they are going to pull the plug. And where does that leave our forward thinking, dumbed down, headline grabbing, cost cutting, money grabbing and morally bankrupt bunch of 5th raters who have the nerve to call themselves the Government of the United Kingdom?

If that is the case then I heard they would goto plan Z produce a maritime version of the typhoon(eurofighter)
but that would need some serious reworking but it should be possible.

the french managed it with the Rafale and that was a copy of the eurofighter

Colin