Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: grub on October 20, 2012, 02:37:33 pm

Title: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 02:37:33 pm
We've never paid for water as there's a covenant on the house whereby the water is supplied by others, at some point the Water board have disconnected our supply and connected us to theirs and guess what? They think I'm going to pay them for water and even consent to having a meter fitted, surely they can't do this can they? If they can, what's the point in covenants anyway if they can be broken by a third party for their own financial gain. >>:-(
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: ardarossan on October 20, 2012, 02:45:26 pm
Sorry mate, I haven't got a clue.

I saw the topic title and assumed it was going to be about a Dan Brown sequel to 'The Da Vinci Code'  :embarrassed:

Andy
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 03:57:58 pm
Sorry mate, I haven't got a clue.

I saw the topic title and assumed it was going to be about a Dan Brown sequel to 'The Da Vinci Code'  :embarrassed:

Andy
{-)
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 20, 2012, 04:37:18 pm
well I dont know if this makes any sense to you with regards to your covenant - http://www.land-registry-documents.co.uk/news-blog/covenantswhat-you-need-to-know-about/
but surely the covenant is an agreement with the person who owns the property from which you were obtaining your water, so by allowing this to change they would be in breach of the covenant, maybe you need to contact a lawyer for advice, (or citizens advice bureau) If you know of any local colleges that teach law they usually have free advice clinics where lawyers give out free advice with the law students assisting (daughter is just starting her second year of law at uni).
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 05:39:11 pm
Thanks Grendel, beginning to look like I'm stuck with paying out, no way I can afford lawyers >:-o
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 20, 2012, 05:51:22 pm
thats why I mentioned the CAB and free law clinics, I'll ask my daughter when she gets home from the boyfriends tomorrow.
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 07:02:59 pm
Thanks Grendel, I've spent the day trawling the net and am feeling less confident and much poorer than I was when I began {-). Who'd have thought life in the sticks could be so stressful, last thing I need with 4 kids is a bloody water meter %).
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 20, 2012, 08:46:55 pm
Grub

I wouldn't give up so easily . . .

First question I'd ask of your water board is . . .
"if you weren't paying them for water supply (water rates or meter) before, why should you be
asked to do so now ? " - in other words find out exactly what has changed and get them to state
clearly (in writing) what the situation is, and what has changed.

I'd also ask what/who was involved in the disconnection/reconnection of your water supply.

Another approach is to find out from your neighbours (near or far) if they are in the same boat (excuse the pun!)
it may be, that if several of you are, then some form of joint action may be more affordable and effective!

Good Luck - but once again don't give in - as you say, 4 kids and a water meter is not a fair deal!

please keep us up-to-date on things if you can.

regards

Richard
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 20, 2012, 08:50:07 pm
you could also put to them that since they made the changes they are now bound by the terms of the covenant to supply you water free of charge (and let their lawyers do all the work to prove otherwise.
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 08:58:04 pm
The issue with this little lot is going to be getting them to comply I fear, July 2011 I got back from work and found a sub-contractor about to 'check' my stopcock. I told him not to touch it as it was 'mine' >>:-(, he did anyway and we awoke to flooded front gardens, mud coming out of the hot taps and a new stream running down the A41 >>:-(. They kindly replaced my boiler and that was that (except I've had no certification from Building Control), this year they've been replacing the water main and when they turned it off, we went off. So at some point (obviously when they had to close the road overnight and repair our main I think) they have disconnected our supply and connected us to theirs, now they think they are going to charge me for water and would like to come and fit a meter.
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 20, 2012, 09:22:42 pm
it is possible that you got your supply from your neighbours who got it from the mains, which would explain why you went off when the main was off, unfortunately you have come into their awareness now, so they will try and do whatever is in their power to make you pay. I still think that the citizens advice people may be able to help, at least to clarify your status under the covenant, a lot may depend on the exact wording on that, if it only states that water will be supplied  then you might be liable to be charged, whereas if it says that it will be supplied free of charge, that will mean something else.
worth getting it checked out, either that or try the money saving expert forums, there will be people on there who may have more expertise in these things.
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 20, 2012, 09:23:57 pm
Grub

your comment about "getting them to comply" may be very relevant

Do you know what they disconnected your supply from exactly ? - I'd push for them to restore the connection
exactly as it was before they started b*ggering about with the stopcock - do you have any legal cover
on your house insurance ? if you have, it may be worth asking if they could take up cudgels on your behalf.

Richard
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 20, 2012, 09:31:39 pm
Just found this

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/old_consumer_w/consumer1_energy_and_water_e/consumer1_water_e/water_supply.htm (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/old_consumer_w/consumer1_energy_and_water_e/consumer1_water_e/water_supply.htm)

You might not like what it is saying but there are one or two options open to you - happy reading!

Richard
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 09:32:00 pm
Well there's an issue in it's own right Richard, as far as I'm aware we were on a metered supply from the other side of the A41 that was metered by the MOD (I think). The water board are saying it wasn't connected there and there are no meters, obviously I can't look for myself, all I have is the covenant and the drawings showing the pipe from home to there that I'm responsible for and as I now know that pipe doesn't go there %%
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 09:35:03 pm
Just found this

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/old_consumer_w/consumer1_energy_and_water_e/consumer1_water_e/water_supply.htm (http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/wales/old_consumer_w/consumer1_energy_and_water_e/consumer1_water_e/water_supply.htm)

You might not like what it is saying but there are one or two options open to you - happy reading!

Richard
Thanks Richard, I might try The Consumer Council for Water, never heard of them before but they sound like the boys to help :-))
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 20, 2012, 09:51:51 pm
Grub

If it's any consolation I did a search on Google for "can you be forced to have a water meter"

on the second or third page it turned up, I found a comment . . .

"If it helps were a family of 6 (4 kids) and we have always been far better off with a meter fitted "

so it may not be as bad as you are expecting. As for having to start paying for a water supply all
you can console yourself is that you have 'got away' with not paying for your water for however
long you have been doing so, and put a brave face on that from now on, you'll have put your hand
in your pocket

I got away with paying very low rates on my old house (for twenty-five years!)  I bought the house
after it was fitted with central heating and a bathroom, but the council never got round to re-rating
it! I saved about £150 a year!  BTW I was advised by my solicitor (when I bought the property)
not to bother reminding the council, but leave them to sort themselves out!

Richard
  
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 20, 2012, 09:57:36 pm
surely then under the terms of the covenant the water company should be chasing the MOD for the water charges, not you, as the covenant and your deeds say the water supply is from there, then they have unlawfully changed your source of supply, so should be forced to reinstate your supply back to the way it was at their cost. well that would be the tack that I would take anyhow.
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 20, 2012, 10:01:47 pm
surely then under the terms of the covenant the water company should be chasing the MOD for the water charges, not you, as the covenant and your deeds say the water supply is from there, then they have unlawfully changed your source of supply, so should be forced to reinstate your supply back to the way it was at their cost. well that would be the tack that I would take anyhow.
Grendel

I agree entirely ! O0

Richard
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 10:11:35 pm
surely then under the terms of the covenant the water company should be chasing the MOD for the water charges, not you, as the covenant and your deeds say the water supply is from there, then they have unlawfully changed your source of supply, so should be forced to reinstate your supply back to the way it was at their cost. well that would be the tack that I would take anyhow.
Grendel
I have been asking them to change it back and f**koff but they won't play {-), they seem to think I'll just give up and not make a legal challenge but the way I see it is they've de-valued my property. Who wants to live next to a main trunk road? Not many and that is reflected in the price I'd get for my house , no water rates was the sweetner :D.
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: tigertiger on October 20, 2012, 10:17:28 pm
Hi Guys

This is a discussion that I think you two really need to have.
As this is not boat related, can I politely suggest you now take this onto the messages system here and discuss it off line.

We can then clear the topic from the boards

TT
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 20, 2012, 10:21:00 pm
Grub

Quote
I have been asking them to change it back and f**koff but they won't play laughing, they seem to think I'll just give up and not make a legal challenge but the way I see it is they've de-valued my property. Who wants to live next to a main trunk road? Not many and that is reflected in the price I'd get for my house , no water rates was the sweetner Cheesy.

just a final thought tonight, before I have my cocoa and go to bed  %% - what about telling the local papers or even a national or two ?
they love anything like this and hopefully it could shame these cowboys into behaving!

Cheers and Night-night,

Richard
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 20, 2012, 10:25:45 pm
TT

The description for this section of the forum is . . .

Quote
Chit-Chat
Almost anything you like in here...

I am not sure why you think we should clear off ?

Richard
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 20, 2012, 10:28:33 pm
plus a 3 way conversation isnt easy by pm.
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 20, 2012, 11:17:19 pm
Grub

just a final thought tonight, before I have my cocoa and go to bed  %% - what about telling the local papers or even a national or two ?
they love anything like this and hopefully it could shame these cowboys into behaving!

Cheers and Night-night,

Richard

plus a 3 way conversation isnt easy by pm.
Grendel
Hmmm perhaps TT needs a little less caffeine  {-), I posted in here because the description say's "Almost anything you like in here..." so I posted what 'I liked' that I felt wasn't too offensive (unless you're a share holder for my local water board). I just thought I might get some advice and guess what? I did :}
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: pugwash on October 20, 2012, 11:27:45 pm
Grub it doesn't neccessarily cost a fortune to have a water meter - out last house had one and as well as the normal house usage we had a half acre vege patch
which go regularly watered plus the water for the horses and the sheep troughs - probably at least as much as an average family and our water bills
were on average about £25-30 a quarter - this is going back about 12 yrs and the rates per cubic meter have doubled in our area - might be worth finding
out what they charge per cubic meter before you get too concerned.
Our present house(without a meter) costs an awful lot more than it did there.

Geoff
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: tigertiger on October 21, 2012, 12:00:13 am
It was a polite suggestion only.

There is no need for hostility
Hostile post deleted.
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: Martin (Admin) on October 21, 2012, 12:31:36 am
Yeah!   :police:
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on October 21, 2012, 04:22:05 am
The whole post should go. >>:-( >>:-(

To many if and buts and no detail, just taking up space. <*< <*<

For example, the originator failed to give details of the covenant, such as, who is it with and therefore if the covenant has been breached, his recourse is to that person/entity he has the covenant with for the  supply of water, may not necessarilly be the Water Board. O0 O0

Not too mention what else may be indicated by the covenant document/s.




Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: richald on October 21, 2012, 06:25:48 am
This will be my last post in this thread . . .

First of all my apologies to tigertiger (and anybody else) if any of my posts have appeared
hostile or offensive, I did not intend them to be.

I am disappointed that people feel this thread is irrelevant and/or should be removed,
looking down the list of threads in this chit-chat forum, the same finger could have
been pointed at lots of other threads, but wasn't.

Sorting out  problems related to covenants and land registry documents (and water
boards!) can be difficult, time consuming and downright frustrating at times - I know
I went through this with selling one house, and buying another recently - I thought
it might have been of interest to forum members.

Subject closed on my part.

Richard

BTW Martin - is the spell-checker broken? - I can't get it to work today.
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: Footski on October 21, 2012, 07:56:11 am
I have to say that I have followed this thread with interest. I did not contribute as I had nothing constructive to say, but I am slightly stunned to see a suggestion to stop it. Please keep it going and hopefully we can find out the final result.
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: DickyD on October 21, 2012, 09:01:58 am
I'm with Barry, I am also finding it interesting.   (http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p8/DickyD_photos/Smileys/thinking1.gif)
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: Raymond on October 21, 2012, 09:23:18 am
So am I
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 21, 2012, 09:27:19 am
It's an interesting situation but the whole issue turns on the wording of the covenant and the legal background to that in which case professional legal opinion is likely to be needed whether it comes from privately engaged lawyers or the Citizen's Advice Bureau. It is probably unlikely that the original covenant envisaged the fitting of individual property water meters so it may well be that the metered water charges should be made to the MOD if they are legally responsible for providing water free to the property occupant.

Colin
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on October 21, 2012, 09:42:09 am
It's an interesting situation but the whole issue turns on the wording of the covenant and the legal background to that in which case professional legal opinion is likely to be needed whether it comes from privately engaged lawyers or the Citizen's Advice Bureau. It is probably unlikely that the original covenant envisaged the fitting of individual property water meters so it may well be that the metered water charges should be made to the MOD if they are legally responsible for providing water free to the property occupant.

Colin

 :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: tigertiger on October 21, 2012, 10:06:43 am


First of all my apologies to tigertiger (and anybody else) if any of my posts have appeared
hostile or offensive, I did not intend them to be.



Hi Richald and grub,
It was not your posting that was considered hostile, no problem.
Now that the thread appears to have a wider audience I am happy for it to continue.
TT
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 21, 2012, 10:18:55 am
Grub, perhaps you need to add a model boat input, - say perhaps you are considering the cost to fill the paddling pool to test a model boat.  ok2  :-))
looks for tongue firmly in cheek smiley to insert here.
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 21, 2012, 06:38:39 pm
Grub, perhaps you need to add a model boat input, - say perhaps you are considering the cost to fill the paddling pool to test a model boat.  ok2  :-))
looks for tongue firmly in cheek smiley to insert here.
Grendel
{-)That's one of the reasons I don't want a meter, the 7000 gallon Koi pond that needs a clean out at least once a year :-)), sorry if I stirred you all up a bit I just thouht the combined years of experience on the forum might have some ideas and they did :}. The MOD are in the process of closing down the depot and it is to be sold for private housing, the covenant was with a property neighbouring the depot which was sold to a developer and has since been sold as separate units after the barns were converted. Now...In theory the guy that bought the farmhouse is responsible and so it looks like I'll be knocking on his door, that'll please him no doubt(put yourself in his shoes). I'm going to have to go down the legal route I think to at least try and enforce the covenant, I'd just rather not have the hassle. I have found out though that... If it happened more than 20 years ago and he can prove it he won't be liable, I'm just not sure where that leaves me {:-{
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: NFMike on October 21, 2012, 07:12:30 pm
... I'm just not sure where that leaves me {:-{

Paddleless on a dried up creek bed I suspect. :)
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: irishcarguy on October 21, 2012, 07:20:30 pm
I also found it an interesting subject. However Colin has a fair point in that a layer needs to read the fine print to give you advice on the best way to proceed. I think it opened our eyes as to how we are never safe from big business & government has little interest in helping us anymore. We across the pond are starting to have similar problems & as resources get more valueable it will only get worse. A boat forum may not be the best place to raise the subject but then where do we do it, it certainly has drawn a lot of comments here, some I felt were very helpful. It is now getting to the point that we must use every means at our desposal to bring government or corporations wrong doing into the open, it seems to be the only way left in many cases. All that said I hope you win in the end, don't give up. Mick B.
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: Norseman on October 21, 2012, 11:06:29 pm
Just to drop back to something pointed out earlier

Chit-Chat
Almost anything you like in here...

There is a lot of anti chit chat feelings knocking about  (not meaning you TT) and I'm fed up with it all. One thing Chit Chat offers us all is the chance to talk to other people (who share our interest in boats) about other things. It is an extension of, and an avenue to wider friendships - long may it continue to compliment all the other wonderful boards facilitated by Martin that are exclusively for boats.

I really hope you eventually  win through with your water problem Slug - but it will all take time as the water board move at a Snail's pace  {-)  :embarrassed: terrible joke wasn't it.

Dave
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: pettyofficernick on October 22, 2012, 12:17:08 am
Isn't part of the water rates for sewage system charges and other stuff as well as water supply? How does that fit into the equation, or is that also covered by the covenant?
Hope you are successful in your forthcoming war with the water board ( or whatever they call them selves these days). And Dave, quite agree mate... :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: hammer on October 22, 2012, 03:37:19 pm
Just think yourself luckey you don't live in Devon or Cornwall. You bill would be BIG.
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: cos918 on October 22, 2012, 05:11:31 pm
With Thames water ,I am in dispuite over my bill. They wacket the cost up by god knows how many % but way above inflation. I phoned them ,they just did not want to know. So I payed what I consindered a Fair price and left it at that. Got a final demand and all the usual engnored them. Havent heard a pip out of them for 6 months now. Persion who holds the money is in a stronger position to set the terms. I heard that there is talk that soon we can choise our water companys like we can with gas and eletric

john
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 22, 2012, 08:37:17 pm
Isn't part of the water rates for sewage system charges and other stuff as well as water supply? How does that fit into the equation, or is that also covered by the covenant?
Hope you are successful in your forthcoming war with the water board ( or whatever they call them selves these days). And Dave, quite agree mate... :-)) :-)) :-))
Nick we're in the sticks and on a septic tank for sewage, I think when the MOD moved onto the site and put in bore holes the well (yes well, it's in the garden still but then so's the septic tank %%) was less reliable so the farm opposite and here were connected to their supply, at some point when a new water main was put in we were connected to it...
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 22, 2012, 08:42:03 pm
With Thames water ,I am in dispuite over my bill. They wacket the cost up by god knows how many % but way above inflation. I phoned them ,they just did not want to know. So I payed what I consindered a Fair price and left it at that. Got a final demand and all the usual engnored them. Havent heard a pip out of them for 6 months now. Persion who holds the money is in a stronger position to set the terms. I heard that there is talk that soon we can choise our water companys like we can with gas and eletric

john
John when my father had the boats at Folly Bridge and Thames was privatised, the licence for the two rafts went from £40 to £800 O0. He never paid and left it to the solicitors, last we heard was when they went back to Thames and said that as we owned the river bed it was felt only fair they paid to run their water over our land, never heard anything else about the rafts {-).
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grendel on October 22, 2012, 10:21:30 pm
might be worth checking the well - you could be selling water to the water company. at very least it gives you a bargaining point, also if you do use the water from the well - even if just to water the garden / fill the kio pond flush the toilets etc, if they do put you on a meter it will keep your water bills way down. just use the mains water for cooking / drinking.
Grendel
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: grub on October 22, 2012, 10:25:20 pm
might be worth checking the well - you could be selling water to the water company. at very least it gives you a bargaining point, also if you do use the water from the well - even if just to water the garden / fill the kio pond flush the toilets etc, if they do put you on a meter it will keep your water bills way down. just use the mains water for cooking / drinking.
Grendel
I wouldn't dare use it for anything other than the garden Grendel without boiling, it's 15ft from the Victorian brick built septic and surely wouldn't have been put in nowadays. I do know though that it was an addition as you can still see where the trap was that was opened to remove the bucket in what was originally the toilet {:-{
Title: Re: Property Covenants
Post by: NFMike on October 23, 2012, 12:09:36 am
might be worth checking the well - you could be selling water to the water company.

I would keep very quiet about that well - little thing called abstraction rights means you'd probably end up paying them for the water you get out of it.