Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: dlancast on October 26, 2012, 07:41:40 pm
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Dear Folks,
Well, winter has arrived in the great Pacific Northwest in the US and I have once again opened my indoor shop to continue the build from a kit of the "Ajax". I am choosing to build a general 1765 version of an English Frigate. As some of you may recall last winter, I finished building up the hull and am now ready to start Masting and Rigging. To me, this is when a ship begins to come to life and is a stage of the build that I really enjoy and I think I'm ok at pulling off, as long as these old fingers and eyes can still do it. So, I'll be posting with pictures as things progress and will be starting with the lower foremast.
Its nice to be back. (Oh, I managed to build a 12ft rowing skiff for a friend and have started the build of a 15ft sailing skiff for my personal use. Will resume in the spring of next year).
Cheers,
Dennis Lancaster
Bellingham, Wa. USA
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Ok, here a hopefully a first picture to show where I am at his point in the build.
Regards,
Dennis
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very nice :-))
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Welcome back Dennis, you have been missed. I will follow this keenly. :-)) :-))
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Thank you sir. I can't say this is my favorite time of the year. I call it the "dark months". Sure am glad I have rediscovered this hobby and do get a ton of enjoyment out of it. Installed the crosstrees on the lower foremast and some upper banding, am now working on the "cheeks". (no... its not those kind of cheeks... gotta love those old nautical terms)
Regards,
Dennis
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Ok, lower foremast is coming along. Banding is copper.
Dennis
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Status of the lower foremast: Trestletree and bolsters in, Tops in, installed stanchions for the top rail, gunwale, battens, top rim and holes for crows feet. Mast will be stepped today and begin rigging lower shrouds... the fun begins!
Dennis
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nuther pic....
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Beautiful work.. :-))
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Lower Foremast is now stepped. Have started sizing or "whipping" the first set of lower shrouds.. this is done on section that goes over the hounds. I may or may not do the ends that go around the deadeyes. Lots of effort that might not be seen..... errrr whot? There are details on this model that nobody will see.. that only I will know about.... isn't that what all the fun is about!
Cheers.....
Dennis
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Sizing shroud.
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Ok folks, we are on a roll. Just had to show the method I use to install deadeye lanyard. I made a spacer to achieve the correct distance. It appears sizing on the shroud at the deadeye was not used on this period vessel, so I will leave that off and only size as required to secure. Two shrouds per side, started on the starboard side and then alternating, moving aft till done. What fun!
Dennis
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Great fun at the beginning, but by the time you reach the top shrouds on the rear mast.......it is beginning to really test your patience!!!
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Yea, it does not seem to matter which direction you start the rigging. I have always done it bow to stern and as things begin to close in, I had to make rigging tools that reach in where these fat fingers cannot get..oh the joy of it all.
Dennis :-)
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deadeyes forever....
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A beautiful job.
Quick tip.......For any rigging, run your cord through a block of bees wax. It flattens the fluff.... :-)) :-))
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thank you sir! Always do run line through wax block... coordage in kit is a bit rough. Its the cat hair that I am bothered with.
Cheers! ;)
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really coming tho :-))
cat hairs lol tell me about it they everywhere :o
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Ratline time, up the mast we go, one clove hitch after another... catching an occasional cat hair or two! :o
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Starboard ratlines are in and the jib boom installed.
A side note: I broke my left artificial knee and will be going in for surgery around the end of next week to have the joint replaced. I'll be down for a few weeks before I can do model work...maybe sooner. But, I will be back.. can't keep an old guy down.
Dennis
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Dennis,
Wonderful work. I do hope all goes well next week. Let us know when you get back home at least... :-))
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Lower forestay is in served with thimble and open/closed heart lashed. Plans call for a double lower forestay.. it was done either single or double.. I'll have to think about that.
Dennis
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Black makes it difficult to show detail in pictures. Forestay is served and moused.
D.
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hope all goes well with the op and your back posting about this cracking build soon :-))
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Black makes it difficult to show detail in pictures. Forestay is served and moused.
D.
Try adding some extra light fairly close to the subject (not a flash) - a desk lamp or similar is fine. This will create some bright parts and some shadowing and improve detail quite a bit.
Don't understand being "served and moused" - sounds uncomfortable (grin)
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Double forestay.... oh why not. :o
D.
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Bobstay lashed to deadeyes just ahead of jibboom Crupper. Say Wot?! %%
D.
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Say.....magnificent.. :-)) :-))
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Lower forestay crowsfeet in.
D.
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Crowsfeet going in.
D.
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Neat work there Dennis O0 Hope to follow this one through to conclusion - might even have a go at something similar in the future.
Good luck... :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Hi Dennis,
You are making a super job of this Friget, I have been retired over 10 years and so far have built completely rigged plus self sown sails 5 ships of the early 18th/19th Century plus 3 Cutty Sarks one of which was copper plated bottom.
Now having a rest from this typre and I am in the middle of building "Paramount Alpine " Dutch tug to sail with my other motorised vessels.
Probably, God Willing I will return to the Nelson period as I would love to build another Victory a probably the Argamemon.
I will follow your build with interest.
Ceres.
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Tks Ceres,
Good on ya. You have been productive and know the joy of these period ships to build or model. I'm amazed at the talent on this forum, especially the large scale ships of the line that actually sail RC! I have brought back an old hobby of mine to entertain me during the winter months of my retirement. I once had the lurid dream of making a living building ship models....hahahaha... you know how that goes. But I did manage to sell some of my work over the years. A model of the Flying Cloud (Donald McKays Clipper) is now in a penthouse in Chicago, Darwins HMS Beagle is in an office in Monterey, California, an English Cutter is in a museum in Japan and a model of the Emma C. Berry that I sailed RC was gifted to a friend here in Washington State. It now sits as a display piece in his office. I always told myself that when I retired, I'd build ship models and after several years of no model building (I was too busy playing with the real thing and building them), I brought my model shop out of storage and am back at it and having the time of my life! Not sure if you know, but I posted the first phase of the build about this time last year on this forum. I'm sure you could find it in archives. So..... tomorrow, I go into surgery to have my left knee replaced, so I'll be quiet here for a few weeks, or until I can get off the drugs enough to model... I have a hard enough time doing this sober %% Thank you for your interest and for others following, the same.
Regards,
Dennis
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Very best wishes that your operation goes well, and for a speedy recovery.
Your build continues to fascinate me, beautiful detail work that demonstates what can be achieved.
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Thank you kind sir. Great group of folks sharing a wonderful hobby. Build on!
D.
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Couldn't resist sharing my new toy. I've been messing with a few of these cheap magnifying lamps that have not held up and constantly break on me. So I decided to spring for a quality lamp and decided on one from a company called Lite Source Inc. out of California, US. It has a 8" magnifier that came with a 3X lense loaded and a backup 5X. Light is flouresent ring with a true color light spec. Very well made and articulates to just about anywhere I want it. Always good to have nice tools.
D.
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Another shot.
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Nice piece of kit.
Everyone should have one
vnkiwi
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That reminds me Dennis, I must replace mine. It broke a year or so ago!.
Best of luck with the operation and see you soon... :-))
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Dear Folks, just a quick update that I'm 3 weeks into knee surgery recovery and its coming along just fine, but painful of course. I'm still not to a point where I can sit for hours doing rigging, but I think I'll be back on board in another week or so. I'm still lurking around and watching the action.
Regards,
Dennis
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:-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) Great to hear you are on the mend Dennis....Looking forward to you getting started again... %% %% %% %%
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glad your recovering :-))
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Dear Folks, as winter in the great northwest rages on and wind and rain howles out side my window, I am driven to read one of my new found favorite author H.M. Tomlinson, specifically his book "London River" published in 1921. What a gift this man has in painting pictures of shipboard life on old steamers and sailing craft hailing to and from the Thames. The mere mention of "Cutty Sark", speaking from the mind of a man over 90 years ago with pictures taken by his son of scenes long since gone. Talk about leaving a legacy. I don't know if our ship models will do that..... but they just might :-)
Still on the healing curve and can only sit for 20 mins at a time.... maybe another week, I'll start posting progress. Wife and friends put our tree up..... suddenly its Christmas!
Regards,
Dennis
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Hi Dennis
Sounds like you are keen to get back into it, you will soon come right...
My father, a keen trout fisherman all his life, had both knees done a few years back (in the off fishing season of course) and it has been great for him - but the fish probably regret it...
While your weather gets worse, here in Australia ours is improving nicely, should be a nice sunny Christmas with beer, BBQ and beach....
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Howdy Folks..... ahhhh, at long last, as us westerners like to say.. "its good to be back in the saddle again". First day back at the shop and rigging once again. I'm about 75% in my recovery from knee surgery and at week 5, finally beginning to feel somewhat better and it sure feels good to be back at model making.. as you all know so well. I'll be doing ratlin work for a while now to get that lower foremast rigged and then on to the lower main mast. I like to bring my rigging up that way as things begin to get pretty tight as the the masts clime. Wishing all a happy holidays.
Regards,
Dennis
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one more.....
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Nice to see your knee surgery is getting you back into shape. I have missed following your updates on this amazing build. Best wishes for a speedy recovery, and more ratlins soon O0
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Oh my, sorry for the long delay in posting. I thought I was well enough to do model work, but that turned out to not be the case. Alas, I'm back in the saddle for sure this time... whewww! What a ride and not something I would wish on anybody. Ok, back to buisness at hand. Just completed the install of the port Futtock Shroud and ratline work. The futtock shrouds carry the thrust of the topmast shrouds down from the outer edges of the top to their connection on the futtock staves, which will be lashed across the lower shrouds. (taken from "A modeller's Guide to Rigging" by A. Richard Mansir... just some trivia for ya.
Regards,
Dennis
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and another shot.
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Great to see you back and at it Dennis - lovely work to date O0
Regards,
Ray.
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Thank you kind sir. I so enjoy doing this and it sure fills the time during the dark months in the great Northwest.
Cheers,
Dennis :-)
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Thank you for yet another new rigging term - the futtock shrouds.... but what / where are the futtock staves??
[Edit] Never mind, I think I found the futtock stave - that is the piece of timber that the bottom end of the futtock shrouds is lashed to.....[/Edit]
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That is correct about the Stave. My plans do not show the lashing between the staves, but yet, I have seen it done and will probably do it. So many variations and probably dependent on time period. Yes, everything on one of these ships has a name and purpose and I will never know them all. Its a given that I will be leaving some details out. Wither that is a bad thing or not... depends on who you talk to. I as the builder, am the only person who knows the detail that is below decks, never to be seen. Why do it? Made me feel good. I keep remembering a comment made by a casual observer of one of my models..."gee, look at all the sticks and strings". That spoke volumes to me. We do it for the joy and always strive to improve the skill and learn. To me, this is like keeping history alive.
Regards,
Dennis
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Ok, moving forward. Trestletrees and cheeks installed on lower main.
Dennis
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...Trestletrees and cheeks..........
Aha some more new pieces with names....
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Yes, well.... ultimately, it just becomes a bunch of "sticks and strings" anyhows. But, its fun trying to keep the history alive.
Regards,
Dennis
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Hmmmm... "sticks and string"...
For me, I prefer the real names for these items - I have a shopping list of names for bits now.....
My wife and I are presently assembling a kit of USS Enterprise here ("Old Ironsides"); I am finding these terms are really useful.... also shows the shortcomings of the kit - for example, the picture on the box shows the boat with futtock shrouds but they are not on the plans and are not mentioned in the assembly "manual". If it were not for your mention of the futtock shrouds, I would not have gone looking for them, nor would I have been able to describe the part of the rigging that I wanted to refer to...
Thank you and keep them coming.... :-)
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I applaud you sir on doing a "joint" effort on the model build. May I suggest two books for your library. "The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860" by James Lees (still good rigging info for U.S. ships) and "A Modeller's Guide to Rigging" by A. Richard Mansir. Most helpful for those missed terms in kit building. Would love to see of pics of your build sometime.
Regards,
Dennis
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Ok, I have "Fished" the lower main mast and started application of mast bands. I like to use my copper taped that was used to make plates for the hull bottom. I cut thin strips and apply with my handy rub stick.
Dennis
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Lower main mast banding done and cross trees installed. Top will be planked and built proper fashion.
Dennis
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Bolsters installed and coppered.
Dennis
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Lower main top is now planked, battens installed, rim in. Holes drilled for deadeyes and crowsfeet. Lamp and rail installed. Next is painting then stepping the mast for good.
Dennis
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Lower main mast is painted and stepped. Next I start the lower shrouds and ratlines. I'll be quiet on the posts while that happens.
Dennis
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Looking very nice... A question if I may, how long is her hull?
Andrew
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Her hull is 2ft, not including Sprit. Total over-all length will be 3ft from end of Bowsprit to tip of Mizzen Boom. Main top will be 26" from waterline. I've been giving her size some thought, as she will be cased when completed. I have just the perfect spot to display her in our entry way. My very first ship model is there now. A square topsail'd schooner of the "Rhoda Mary".
Dennis
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Tending to lower main mast shrouds and deadeyes. In use is a spacer I made to maintain uniform distance between deadeyes. As lanyards are tightened, distance is evened out. Rigging can be a deal breaker in any model. Slow and steady as she goes!
Dennis
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Dennis: Please keep updating us on your great progress. This is one of my favourite ever build threads.
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Good day folks, Been busy with installing lower main shrouds. Just finished getting in the Preventer Stay, hearts and lashings. Stay moused and whipped. Installed the lower main staysail halyard, blocked and tied to main mast pin rail. (first of the running rigging). Attaching some pics and close up of the lower main tophead which I like to call the "Holly Street Pileup". Its kinda cool when all the looped stays converge and pile on top of each other. Next will be the main lower forestay.
Dennis
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Oops, sri.... "Looped Stays" should say "Looped Shrouds". Ackkkk.... all this termonology. Should just stick to "Sticks and Strings". {-)
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Lower main forestay installed today. Went ahead with Preventer Stay reinforcement lashing to main forestay. I am always amazed at the technology envolved in ship rigging of this era. Very logical and very strong.
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Keep it up Dan. Beautifully done so far and lots ore to do. Makes me yearn to build another square rigger!!
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Here, here, looking real good!
Can I ask a question Dennis.... why do many modellers render the rigging black, when I believe in actual fact, should be light grey?.... I ask as I've done it myself in my Puffer I built!
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Hullo Martin & I don't want to steal any kudos from dlancast :o ....but it comes back to coal tar...........BLACK treacle like substance that needed to be heated to be applied to the ropes & yards as a water proofing treatment
It was also used to seal off any loss of bodily fluids after an amputation of a limb..... >>:-( <*< ....Derek
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Here, here, looking real good!
Can I ask a question Dennis.... why do many modellers render the rigging black, when I believe in actual fact, should be light grey?.... I ask as I've done it myself in my Puffer I built!
Martin,
In the old days of sail, and quite possibly in more recent times, the standing rigging was tarred to, as suggested above, protect it from the elements. This would then appear almost, but not quite black. The running rigging, i.e. the rigging that was used to work the ship was left a natural colour.
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Goodday sirs. Well, looks like the question got a good answer and would expect nothing less. The black was probably closer to a very dark coffee color, but did appear "black" for the most part. And, of course the "running rigging" was not tarred. "A Modeller's Guide to Rigging" by A. Richard Mansir gives a very good over view on ship rigging and practices and some good history. Also, the internet has a wealth of info on the subject as well. A number of the ship model kits would lead the modeler to finish the model "natural", with no coloring. (note my model of the Rhoda Mary pictured above.. built virtually per the kit instructions with no modifications) As the modeler gains experience, and the research begins, a library is created and changes are made to better reflect accuracy in the model. Being far from perfect, I could give a long list of the errors I have made on my models. The 3ft rule truly does apply and certainly not to try to insult the general public, but the model is really a pile of "sticks and strings".. although beautifully and intriquitly rendered at best. I like to render my standing rigging black and my running rigging with a variety of colors from light tan to dark tan. I use linen line and acrylic paints and do a final wax. I built a model of MacKay's "Flying Cloud" a number of years ago. A 3 year project that was 90% scratch built along with a ton of research, the end result was a mass of rigging and chain that boggled my mind. You had to sit and stare at it to begin to see the detail. And... I did not rig her with sails, but did include a portion of the running rigging associated with sails. I will probably do something similar with this Frigate model. Hope you all are enjoying the build as much as I am. Bring on the questions.
Regards,
Dennis
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Yes, a great build Dennis. :-))
Ah, that must be it, I'm getting my running and my standing rigging mixed up.
The cold tar stuff, does it dry hard?
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Hi Martin, Well, that depends, if you apply thick cold tar down on a rope, it will never harden, will remain sticky and will smear. It is my understanding (now, I have never done this) that the tar is heated to a thin liquid and sometimes Linseed oil is added. It is then painted onto the rigging and will dry hard in a few days. To fully impregnate the rope fibers, the tar is heated to 200 degs and the rope run through copper vats to allow the tar to soak in. The smell can be impressive. I found this link: http://www.bartleby.com/23/8.html from "Two Years Before the Mast" that summarizes what they used to do at sea. Can you believe, you can still get Stockholm Tar and "Tarring Down" is done on present sailing vessels in the traditional manner.
Just my two cents worth,
Dennis
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Absolutely fascinating build Dennis :-))
Just as an aside - if you watch Royal Navy sailors, when they salute, their hand is tilted slightly forward. This is a tradition which, I believe, stems from the time when sailors hands were covered in tar from working the rigging and was, therefore, a mark of respect so that they wouldn't present a "dirty" hand to the officer or, more accurately, to the officers commission - yes, that's correct. The rating salutes the commission, not the man.
Same for all the armed services O0
Regards,
Ray.
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Just so you folks didn't think I was goofing off. Been working on ratlins for lower main shrouds. Clove hitch after clove hitch. Going to be at this for a while, so bear with me. Oh the joy! ;)
Dennis
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@dlancast,
Dennis, thanks for this thread, finding it great.
Your efforts are not wasted in posting, let me assure you. I am currently building for an "Eco Challenge" where one has to built a boat that will sail from recycled material.
Inspired by your build and with quite a bit copied from a kit for USS Constiution that I have laying around here, I have got the hull to the point where it would float, and in the last couple of days have got the masts up and just about finished the standing rigging. The hull is 12 x 600ml milk bottles, decks are corflute from an old real estate sign. I am yet to build a bow and stern shape.... Most of it is held together with 50mmm tape - no glue used at all yet...
Doing the standing rigging was just SO much fun...... loved it...
This is definitely NOT a static model it has to sail.. :-)
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At last, got the ratlines in on the lower main shrouds. Installed the Futtock Shrouds and ratlines, Futtock Staves and lower top deadeyes. Installed the Crowsfeet, threaded through the Euphroe and attached to the Forestay with single block and tackle. Something I was really not aware off. I had always thought that the crowsfeet were for support to the lower top, but actually, the crowsfeet was used as a chafing preventor for the lower main sail... go figure {:-{ . Next is to start the mizzen mast.
Dennis
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Oops, got the wrong pic up there. Here it is.
D.
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Beautiful. Simply beautiful.
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Ok, the mizzen lower mast is stepped. Glue needs to dry, then back to shrouds and ratlines (again).
Dennis
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Very much impressed Dennis - you must have the patience of a saint and hands as steady as Gibraltar O0
Lovely job :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Tks Ray, well... don't know about that. Sometimes the room turns blue and sometimes, these 68 yr old hands start to commence shaking (especially when I paint) and I have to hold with both hands... gets pretty wild sometimes. But am thankful that I can still do this small work. It is very calming and I do think it keeps my hand/eye coordination somewhat sharp.
Cheers,
Dennis
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Well, some delays dealing with doctor appts and such. Just installed the mizzen lower Preventer Stay with block and tackle, mouse and all that. Is it summer yet?
Dennis
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@dlancast:
Dennis, what is the deck item between these two masts?
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Ahhh... that would be the upper deck "Capstan". The capstan was vital for very heavy hauling jobs such as weighing anchor, raising topsail yards, or lifting guns from the hold. I have not installed the capstan bars as of yet. I will wait until more rigging is in. Hope that helps sir.
regards,
Dennis
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Lower mizzen Forestay in. Hearts installed, laced with lanyard. Next, back to ratlin work.
Dennis
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Well, I've reached another milestone today. All lower masts are in and rigged with standing rigging, deadeyes, etc. Next we move up forward to begin bringing the topmasts in starting with the foremast, which will add some more bowsprit rigging, etc. The rig on this ship is quite tall and will change her look as we go up now.
Cheers,
Dennis
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A lovely model, I have always wanted to have ago at masted vessels but my knacked fingers, eyes and hands means all I will do is make a mess and get very frustrated. Well done on making a superb frigate and for posting so that people like me can marvel at the piccies, thank you.
Si:)
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Very nice Dennis...
Having recently completed a (much rougher) square rigger mainly from recycled materials (part of an online challenge), I was surprised at just how long it too to complete the boat above deck. I found the masts (one piece masts in my case) to be relatively quick to build - it seemed to take forever to make the 15 sails, the yards and so forth and then to get all the running rigging working. Now it is completed, I am learning to sail it - that is a whole new ball game as they say - it is nothing like a sloop rig to sail.....
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Fore Topmast, trestle trees, cross trees and cap in but not set.
Dennis
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Topmast painted and "set". Standing rigging and deadeyes next. On this model, height from deck to truck for the foremast, will be 22" to give you an idea of model size. Starting Friday, I'll be quiet for a few days, as I'm having surgery.
Regards,
Dennis
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Thank you for the update Dennis, the photo's of the foretop mast give a reasonable impression of how, when complete, the masts balance up the overall size of the vessel you're building. :-))
Hope the surgery all goes well for you... O0
Regards,
Ray.
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I have been watching for the past months Dennis without further comment......still brilliant work O0
All the best for tomorrow........remember if you get a chance.... %) surgery's always have a good supply of very sharp scalpel's ...........
Very handy for cutting model rigging ropes {-) {-) {-) ..... Derek
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Thank you kind sirs for your compliments and well wishes. Good folks on this forum. I'll ask about the blades. Just a side note. I happened to pick up Xacto #11 blades in stainless steel. I like, stronger and hold an edge much longer.
Cheers,
Dennis
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Fore Topmast standing rigging in. I'll be back in a few days.
Cheers,
Dennis
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Both Topmast backstays are in, just mounted the lower Topmast forestay with detail on how it attaches to the bowsprit tensioned with blocks and sheaves. There will be two forestays for the Topmast, starboard is the lower, port will be the upper, yet to be installed. Darn, my macro lens on my camera shows too much detail.
Dennis (still sore from surgery) {:-{
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Exquisite :-)) Take care and get well soon.
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Upper Foremast, outer forestay installed. Now its back to ratlin work on those upper shrouds.
Dennis
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Well dear folks, its that time of year once again. Temps are pushing back up towards 70 and I'm in the process of waking my wood shop up. I have a 15ft sailing skiff to build, so need to get cracking. This means suspending the Frigate build until winter comes. I'll do one last post once I finish ratline work on the foremast upper and then its time to shut the indoor shop down and give the desk back to my first mate.
I have endured a full knee replacement and a bout with cancer and have survived. Life is good, so much to do and I hope enough time to do it.
Best to all, I'll be lurking, enjoy your projects and sailing this summer.
Regards and Fairwinds,
Dennis
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Dennis, good to hear that you are going Ok.
You may recall my earlier post of the Recycle Boat inspired from your fantastic build... The competition closed today, so I can publish my entry. Here are links to a couple of YouTube videos of the completed project. It has been great fun to build, very different to your detailed work (and much rougher!), but it is a functioning ship.... In the finish, my biggest challenge was learning how to sail it - VERY different to the usual sloop rigs...
Build and sailing - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zZGjFR5CYUE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zZGjFR5CYUE)
Onboard detail - https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sTj-aqYUX9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sTj-aqYUX9g)
Thank you for your inspiration!!!
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Thanks for sharing the visuals on the Eco ship. Most interesting and amazingly real looking out on the water. The physics and hydrodynamics for models with regard to ballast and control surfaces amaze me as well. I have looked into a limited amount of fluid dynamics and I guess its a molecular issue... same thing happens with model airplanes when you are talking scale. But hey, I'm no expert and you do what you gotta do to get her to go! Sailing a square rigged ship has its own set of rules for sure. Isn't tacking called "wearing around"? But, it looks like you got the hang of it and doing reverse was a gas :-)) I'm still doing ratlin work.. seems to go on forever.. all those clove hitches.
Regards,
Dennis
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Dennis,
Tacking and wearing round are both methods of changing course to change the tack the ship is sailing on, but differ in the way they achieve this. Imagine a ship sailing as close to the wind as it can and wishing to sail on the other tack. The shortest distance method is to turn into the wind so that half way through the manoeuvre the wind is blowing straight onto the bow. There is obviously no drive from the sails at this point, and the skipper relies on the momentum of the ship to carry it round until the sails fill on the other tack. This is "tacking".
For all sailing craft, but for square riggers in particular, tacking can fail if the windage (or drag) of the rig stops the ship before it has passed the half way mark of this manoeuvre. The ship now loses control and, if in confined waters, can quickly get into trouble. One way to prevent this is to turn the other way, away from the wind, and perform a large circle manoeuvre. Half way through this manoeuvre the wind is blowing directly onto the stern of the ship and of course the ship retains drive and steerage all the time. The huge disadvantage is that the ship loses a large amount of distance as it has turned away from its intended course. This is "wearing round" and is safer and surer but needs much more time and space to perform.
I hope that has clarified things and not just confused the issue!
Greg
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Re tacking a square rigger - further to Greg's comments, I can confirm that it is a bit of a challenge to get a square rigger to turn through the wind, as shown in my video previously linked a few posts back.....
To tack a square rigger through the wind goes something like this - you get a bit of headway up so you have some inertia to help drive the boat through the move. Then you set the foremast sails parallel to the wind so they do not block the move and swing the rudder so the boat turns the bow to the wind. As the bow comes round into the wind, the wind pushes on the front of the square sails, stopping any forward motion and driving the boat backwards. With a combination of the correct rudder (opposite) to encourage the stern through the manoeuvre and at the same time angling the foremast square sails so they push the bow further around through the turn, a tack can be completed. Once the bow is far enough round that the jib sails can finish bringing the bow around, all square sails are set for the new course.
The manoeuvre is also known as a "box turn", and is something similar to doing a three point turn with a car in a narrow street....
(Apologies for off topic Dennis)
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Hey, thanks gentlemen, this is interesting stuff and very much adds to the topic. Sailing a square rigged ship takes a certain technique both in models and real life. I always thought they could only "wear" a ship around to get her on a new tack. I was aware that they used the sails to "stop" the ship when docking.. and they did dock under sail! Amazing.
I'm nearing the end of the Fore Mast top standing rigging and will provide pics soonly, then I must move into my outside shop as that skiff build is well underway now. I'll be lurking and keeping a watchful eye on you guys. %)
Cheers,
Dennis
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Well folks, I'm done with the Frigate build for the summer. I have completed the upper foremast standing rigging and have moved on to building a 15ft sailing skiff. I will resume in the fall continuing on with the same on the main and mizzen masts. In the meantime, you folks have a wonderful summer sailing and building.
Fairwinds,
Dennis
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So, now we have something to look forward to later in the year - thanks again for postings to date Dennis. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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OK, Dennis, winter's knockin' on the door in the drippy PNW. I'm thinking it's time for another update soon! :}
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Well, howdy once again dear folks. Must say its been a 'very' difficult summer for me physically, but it appears that I'm getting through it all. Just a quick status update. Yes, winter is barking its ugly head and will arrive soon in the great NW. I'm busy with a 15ft sailing skiff build which will not complete this year, but is close. I do enjoy building full scale in my shop, but also long for the model work which should commence in a month or sooner. I know its off topic for this group, but here is a picture of my current project. See you all soon.
Regards,
Dennis
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I think I see why it is taking so long..... There is an extra tool!!!
A two door refrigerator with an ice maker..... That's my sort of workshop!!!
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Lovely skiff Dennis, built with same quality and attention to detail as your smaller scale "models".
Best wishes.
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I confess, the gig is up...... actually, that is where I get my ice water.
Dennis
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Ok folks, I'm back. Skiff is put up for the winter and my model shop is setup and ready to go. Next is to build the main top mast and install. Stay tuned.
Best regards,
Dennis
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Just for the fun of it. Got my skiff loaded to her trailer before storing for winter. I'm happy with the way she turned out.
Dennis (I don't know who that old guy is standing there)
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Ok folks, just so you know I'm not slackin.... got the main top mast roughed in.
Dennis
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I love it.. :-))
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Dennis,
Beautiful woodwork on the skiff! I'm currently restoring an 8' f/g dink which needs all rub rails, etc replaced around the entire perimeter of the gunwhales plus a few other bits. Perhaps when the time is right, you might allow me the privilege of picking your brain for a few tips on getting the best results. Right now I'm just trying to wrap my head around how to bend the strips when I have no vessels remotely big enough, never mind even what wood to choose in the first place. :embarrassed:
In the meantime I'll be watching your continued frigate build closely. I've been contemplating building a static square rigger for about a year now. Going to try a kit for my first attempt and have been looking at quite a few. Should have one picked out soon.
Cheers from Port Gardner
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Thankyou sir, no problem. Anyone can contact me at dllbjl@comcast.net for any off topic stuff or whatever. There are a number of fine kits available for static square riggers. ModelExpo comes to mind.
Ok, Trestletrees and Crosstress have been installed. Used brass sheves for future yard running rigging.
Dennis
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Oops, forgot the pic I wanted to include.
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Thankyou sir, no problem...
Thanks for reaching out. I'll be in touch!
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Main top in.
Dennis
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Gee, the trees look crooked, they are not. Here is another shot.
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They say "the camera never lies" - and that's another lie ! >:-o
Well done Dennis - looking good :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Main Top Shrouds begin... this will take a while. As the model builds in height, sitting and rigging becomes more problematic... I'll be standing before its done.
Dennis
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Hi ,I,ve been doing/watching your build ,I am about at the same spot in the build ,was helped by the great Jimmy James ,then I stopped for the obvious .,now coming to terms with ,its got to be started ,so I am sitting ,and the hull is on the floor ,makes it a lot easier ,also ,by the way ,have had a great lighting done to help ,a 4 foot strip light at each side ,helps out and I can see were to put the various ,love your dead eye jig ,yes we all make one to our own satisfaction ,,at times progress is very slow as there are other things which require my attention ,was presented with a shed full of books on period ships ,rigging etc ,very good reading and out of print ,when on sale they were pricey.A piece of bees/wax is a great help too ,plus the thrown away surgons tools ,happen to be lucky there ,got a good contact in the right department how are you doing for timber ,I,ve had to get the local timber turners to help me ,good honest crowd too ,plus got a hold of a great tube type steamer , it works and helps at lots .All for now ,and best of it to yourself .Dave . ;)
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Tks Dave, good suggestions. Lighting is so important. My new mag loop is providing good lighting now. Most of my lumber is coming from the kit and I do buy some strip sticks from the local hobby shop. Its fortunate that I have a good inventory of linen line plus what the kit provides (which is never enough or the right size). I always wax my line before install, plus sizing/whipping. I have various deadeye jigs, but seem to come back to the same old standby. And, yes, rigging tools are a must. I have built my own and have some old dentist tools as well, but they make my teeth hurt! ;) Got all the shrouds in and am now working on the backstays.
Dennis
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Dennis ,I got some very old Irish linen ,from of all places ,a Church ,it was surplus to wants and being a good customer ,great but needs a wash a dozen times to flex out ,has a good colour though.
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Dave, you are very fortunate indeed. Good linen is hard to find now. I lucked out one year some time ago, a gift shop in Port Townsend specialized in imports from the UK. One such item was old linen thread used by the British military during the war to repair their uniforms. I bought all the spools she had in stock immediately.. about 3 different sizes. Will last beyond my lifespan. I also have a ropewalk and can turn my own sizes if need be.
Dennis
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Folks, having some problems posting pics to the forum, so will try again and then post text separate.
Dennis
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Goodday folks, all upper shrouds and backstays for the upper main are in. I'm now working on the inner forestay of the upper main mast. I thought I would share with you what the plans show for detail on that inner forestay installation. They show using a a deadeye to the secure the stay to the foremast going through an eye and then being connected via a loop to the foremast. I cannot dispute the accuracy of this practice or support it, but have decided to go with it as it looks very "yar". I have named it a "Holly Street Pileup" for no better reason than that. I welcome any comments, having any of you seen this rigging practice used?
Dennis
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Dennis,
I have checked my HMS Victory and the fitting is very similar on her. Of course I cannot recall how it works on the real vessel.
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Thank you sir. It probably is. I have learned to trust these plans in the kit. Reported to be one of the best. Out of curiosity, I'll do some more digging in my reference library and on-line. I just find it a bit odd why they would do it that way. I suppose it gives great purchase, but still, the weak link is the "eye" either way you purchase her. The outter stay runs through a block at the head and down to the deck via a proper block and tackle. I like it though and will rig it that way. Pics later.
How's your Victory comin?
Dennis
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Blimey Dennis, I finished my Victory in 1989 after 3 years of loving labour......She is now permanently cased.
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Oops, sri mate, couldn't remember and you probably told me that some time ago. Could you post a couple of pics of the area in question on your Vic and also, I would like to see how you mounted your model. I have some different ideas.. always lookin for what others have done. I'll be placing this baby in a case as well... it will be huge.
tks, Dennis
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Inner forestay for main in.
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Inner forestay for main in per plan.
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Inner forestay in.
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Ok folks... a little problematic getting photos to post. But got them into the cloud and across the pond at last! Rigged per plan was a challenge, but it does work. Onward. O0
Dennis
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Lovely detail work Dennis. I especially appreciate well made ratlines, have attempted some myself.
I doff my cap sir :-))
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Dennis, sorry to be pedantic, but what you are showing is known as a Preventer stay. The Foremast stay runs from the foremast to the bowsprit.
I do not have a shot of that detail, although I could take one if really required. Trying to post a shot of my "Victory at Portsmouth". She is now permanently cased and was put into a kind of diorama which is a facsimile of her berth at the docks.
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I stand corrected sir.... preventer it is. I do try to be careful with my terminology, but lose it from time to time! Now to add interest, I was viewing a French Frigate model that I like to use as reference and the rigging for those stays were exactly reversed. Then I start to think which form of rigging provides the best purchase and would the main require more than the preventer? Roving through a deadeye to me would provide more purchase as opposed to running through a single block to a triple sheave down at the deck?
Love your Vic. What a cool way to support her. Wish I could see her in person!
Best,
Dennis
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The Stays, ie main stay and fore stay were the heavy supports for the masts and very often were doubled. The Preventer stay was not as heavy as it had to be adjustable.
Any time you want to fly into Malaga let me know and I will bring you to see her!
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Now that's interesting. If the Preventer had to be adjustable, I would think using the block purchase compared to deadeye would have provided more adjustment advantage. That being said.... the French may have had it right or did the designer of my plans have it wrong? This is why a good reference library is a must and even that is not a 100%. Then again, its just a bunch of sticks and strings anyhow and at this scale, the average observer is not going to see it or even care. But.... I will know its there...maddening!
Thank you for the kind offer to pop over for a visit.. wish I could. In my retirement, I'll be lucky to visit Bow, 30 miles south!
Take care sir,
Dennis
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Preventer Stay
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James Lee's The Masting and Rigging of the English Ships of War, is reported to be the authority of rigging practice on English Ships of War. Referencing proper Preventer Stay rigging practice between 1700 and 1800 shows a couple of methods which come close to what my plans are saying to do.. again, not 100%, but close enough. Should have gone to my library in the first place? Reminds me of the time I did not call the power company before I dug a post hole and hit and severed my main power coming into the house.. it was not pretty. "Always call before you dig" is the motto. They fined me $400.
Dennis
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The bottom left illustration looks to be an accurate reflection of your Preventer stay and the dates seem to be accurate. I will check another source........Underhills book on rigs and rigging, which is an excellent book does not show the Preventer stays, but as they did NOT form part of the standing rigging they would not have been tarred, but left a natural colour so they could be adjusted easier.
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Yes sir, in part, as I understand it, all standing rigging was tarred, hence was dark in color.. black works for a model. Standing rigging can be movable or tensioned and as such in actual practice, rigging involved in the charter of movement would be untarred and more of a hemp color. This indeed would have included the lanyards of the deadeye. Now, I have observed many models and color of line is all over the map. I have chosen to make my lanyards on my deadeyes black...that may not be correct. For the Preventer, I will leave the line that runs through the blocks secured to the deck a natural color of hemp. But the Preventer will be black to the running block.. Underhill's book is excellent. Tks mate.
Dennis
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I sometimes wonder if early ship builders [in 1765] had a computer hidden away some where :D
How else could they have designed ropes of so beautifully sized or proportioned ropes in tension to keep the masts in compression :o
Ask a current day Naval Architect {:-{ & he would need all of his computing power to resolve the rigging of such ships.........
Right now we see two competent MBM members discussing such intricacies.......
BTW....your fascinating build continues Dennis ............ :-))
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That is a good point. I have been in amazement for years as to the skill and expertise of early marine architects. For me, there is no better way to experience what they have designed than to build a scale model. When I place tension on various areas of my rigging, I can actually see the physics come into play and then see the logic behind it all. What a marvelous achievement in engineering and design. Even after many years and models built, I'm still a rookie. I am continually put at awe at the skill and craftsmenship of modelers here on the forum and around the world. For me, modeling old sailing ships helps keep alive that wonderful art. Build on!
Dennis :-)
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Dennis,
Go easy my friend, you are beginning to pass the bug onto me.......I too loved rigging a square rigger and imagining it being done for real in the days of old......Now where did I put that tar?
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Text to follow:
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Rigging tools, first three I made myself.. these fat fingers just will not get into the tight places.
Dennis
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Main upper stay and preventer are in now. Just installed the running and standing blocks for the Preventer.
Dennis
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Beautiful work. My favourite rigging tools were a couple of narrow locking medical clamps. They're like scissors with gripping blades and locking handles. Great for holding rigging cord in place till dry.
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text to follow
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Ok, just wanted to show the ratline work in process. One of my more favorite tasks O0
Dennis
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Dennis,
You need to see a doctor.....any one who likes doing ratlines cannot be right!!!! %%
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Oh, I was kidding.. it is pretty tedious to say the least. One clove hitch at a time. I work serpentine, back and forth until I use up the length of line, then touch each knot on the outer edges with fast glue, then snip off the excess. I try to pay attention to the tensioning between the shrouds so that I don't start pulling them together... spacing is all by eye and is not exact. Just all part of the game, but takes time.
Dennis
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But that feeling of achievement when you get it all together - :-))
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text coming
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Oh my..... ratline work does take time. Just finished the shrouds/ratline for the main upper and have been busy installing the upper mast Pendants. Picture shows my method for rigging a double purchase tackle that will be used to raise and lower the upper mast should it need to be removed for some reason. Now, my plans call for this to be installed on the model, when in fact my reference material indicates that this system may or may not be shown on a model..... shoot, its more strings, why not show it! I just finished the fore pendant and will move on to the main, then shoot some more pics of what it all looks like for your enjoyment later.
Dennis
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Pendant lifting rigging installed on the upper foremast.
Dennis
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Upper
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Ok, main top is done. On to the Mizzen. She is getting tall.
Dennis
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As Dennis says....... "She is getting tall" ...an interesting question Dennis O0 ..........what is the total height of the vessel? and also her total length .......including the bowsprit ?.....
I suppose whilst the tape measure is out %) ...also the widest beam dimension?..... Derek
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Derek, If you are referring to the model size, she is 36" long, 30" high and 7" beam. Those will be "finished" lengths and width. Of course, the case will be larger. I know this is rather small compared to some of the RC sailing models you folks mess with, but I'm having to bring the model down to near floor level to work on the uppers... royals, the same.
Dennis
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Thanks Dennis.....for some crazy reason ......I thought she would have been near square.....ie., eg., 36"x 36"......I was simply trying to understand the cost of a glass case for such a model........ O0 ......Derek
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Understand. I have always purchased unfinished wood case kits in the past and finished them out myself. That has been many years ago and I think the total cost for case and glass was $300 US. I will probably make my own case as I have the tools and material. Not sure I'm going to do glass this time, maybe Acrylic. Won't be for another year for that, or longer at the rate I'm working.
Cheers,
Dennis
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I had a case built for my Victory. Oak with Acylic panels. A beautiful job was done at a cost of about £300. That was 5 years ago.
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Footski.......
Is the case we are talking about?........is it the same scale or measuring a model Victory @ 36" long?
regards Derek
(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=40203.0;attach=130112;image)
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That is the one Derek. Model built to 1:98. It is just over 36 inches long.
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Just a quick update, Mizzen top is in, all shrouds, forestay, preventor, backstays. Working on ratlines at present and will post pictures when complete. Oh the joy!
Dennis
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Dear Folks, It is with a heavy heart that I have to announce that I need to suspend my build for an unknown number of weeks, or may not finish at all. I have been diagnosed with malignant melanoma which is now in my blood system and spine. As grime as that sounds, the type of cancer lends itself to respond to treatment very effectively and the doctors are assuring me that they can buy me time in the form of years rather than weeks. They cannot cure me at this time, just buy me time. I am currently involved in sessions of radiation to reduce the tumor and ease the pain, then I move into a new form of treament called Chemo/Bio which uses modified cancer cells that attack the bad boys. So its a wait and see sort of thing. Needless to say, the pain drugs I am on are preventing me from tying my clove hitches and doing what I want to do here, so I'm forced to stop until I can ease off that drug. I am remaining positive about all this and being sustained by my faith and network of friends who have surrounded me at this time. I will remain a lurker as always and will keep all of you updated as this moves along... until the next knot that I tie. I remain,
Fairwinds and smooth seas.
Dennis
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Dennis,
I am so sorry to hear of your illness. Keep positive and all the very very best to you and your family at this difficult time. I look forward to you finishing this very beautiful model when you have won your fight.
Barry
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I am remaining positive about all this and being sustained by my faith and network of friends
Count me in Buddy O0
You're an inspiration :-))
Regards & Best Wishes,
Ray.
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Dennis.....our thoughts are with you........'until the next knot that you tie'.......... Derek
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Dennis: Having avidly followed your amazing build from the start I was dumbstruck to learn of your greatest challenge yet. You will be in all our thoughts and prayers, until the day you can hopefully beat this challenge too.
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I'm shocked and saddened by your news Dennis. Your build is always a delight to follow. With the prayers and support of your friends far and wide I feel sure you are in a good place to beat this. I look forward to you posting many more updates.
All best wishes
Greg
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Tis the Season to Rejoice for many reasons. And I'm sure doing that. As my tumor melts away, so does the pain and I've been able to get back to tying some knots, getting that Mizzen upper "ratted" out.. the old hands are still working and wouldn't say things arn't over until the "beautiful lady sings"... More time given... each day more special and gifted with the most graifying hobby I can think of doing
Wishing all of the very best this year and into the next.
God Bless.
Dennis
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Dennis,
Not only do you build the most beautiful models, but you set an amazing example in life to the rest of us. I wish you and your loved ones a wonderful and happy festive season.
Barry
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Good day folks, its been a while and its been recovery time for me. Radiation was a bit taxing, but seemed to work for me. PET scan of my body shows the cancer to pretty much "not there". I'd say that God healed me and I'm sticking to it. Still more to go with drug therapy over the next few months, etc. Doctors are happy and giving me some years ahead. Thanks for you many kind thoughts and prayers of course. So, its back to modeling making and I'm glad to be back at it. Pictures to follow will show the start of anchor installation and the completion of the mizzen upper mast rigging. Plus one anchor float installed.
Regards,
Dennis
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attached pics:
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attached pics.
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attached pics.
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Always good to see more progress & images of the vessel Dennis....... :-))...and your health progress O0
Just watch out for that flasher taking photographs from the outside {:-{ .....Derek
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Tks Derek, weird neighbors I guess. :-)
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Dennis,
It is wonderful to have you back at work! Although we have never met, you were in my thoughts over the festive period. I am delighted things are going well for you. Now back to the building and I am happy to say, your standards have not dropped.. :-)) . Beautiful.
Just one point, if you don't mind. The anchor ring would not have been brass. A lick of black should put that right......
Barry
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Good to hear things are getting better for you Dennis. I've been following you quietly for some time and love your beautiful ship.
(And while you have the black paint out, those bands on the anchor stock are a bit bright as well %) %) Of course it's your ship, and if you want to keep the brass, keep the brass!)
Keep up the good work and the posts to keep us up to date. Good health to you for 2014.
Greg
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Yes, but that copper is so pretty... too much "bling".. around here they would call it "pimping your ride"... black paint coming out. Tks for kind comments. "Anchors Away".
Dennis %%
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Dennis. Wonderful to hear the progress on your health. Hopefully there will be many more awesome ships to build. :-))
May I ask a silly question (not knowing as much as I should about period sailing ships.)
I can understand how the anchor is raised from the seabed using the capstan, but how did they then swing it alongside to stow in that position. ie: No crane, and surely the shrouds would have got in the way.
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Tks Bob and a good question. I refer to the experts for the best answer to your question and here is what I came up with: http://www.hnsa.org/doc/luce/part5.htm#pg279 (http://www.hnsa.org/doc/luce/part5.htm#pg279) Great site and easy to navigate for what you need. It all has to do with leverage and purchase and using the yards. Admittidely I was skeptical about securing to the deadeye region, but they did do it. Anywhere from flipping a fluke over the cap rail to securing the anchor on deck. I have yet a smaller anchor to rig and it will be done closer to the cathead.
Dennis
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Many thanks for that link Dennis. Very interesting site
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Ok, starboard anchors are in.
Dennis
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more.
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I am enjoying the fine detail Dennis, great work!
This business of hanging the anchors on the side seems a bit odd, I would have thought they would be stored aboard somewhere but I suppose there is not room, also being where they are would make them much easier to deploy.... Loving it!!!
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MrPenguin - Anchors with metal stocks that can be easily moved to parallel the shank were stowed on deck for some vessels. Without the stock jutting at right angles to the flukes, they could be laid on deck and lashed down. Deep sea cargo ships of the 1900's, eg. Pamir, would stow their anchors on deck once they were clear of the shore. The anchor would be re-mounted on the rail, and be re-shackled to the anchor chain, as the ship neared it's destination.
The earlier style, wooden stock anchors of a 1765 frigate, though, were harder to "de-stock". With the stock still mounted, the anchor would take up a lot of volume on the foredeck, and the flukes or stock would interfere with jib sheets and the working of the guns. The ship would remove the cable from the anchor, once they were in deep water, so that it could be stowed below decks. Stowing the hemp cable protected it against chafe and uv-light, and also gave it a chance to dry out.
John Harland's "Seamanship in the age of sail" delves deeply in to anchor handling, if you wish more information.
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Thanks Brooks!
This is all new territory to me, watching Dennis' build with great interest...
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Installed the Dolphin Striker or Martingale. Associated tensioning block and tackle.
Dennis
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more.
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Ok, the Spritsail Yard is now installed.
Dennis
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Lovely job Dennis :-)). Must be pretty close to finishing her now. Does she have a name? I know she began as the Ajax but I think you were intending to produce a more generic model of a frigate of the period.
Can't wait to see a picture of her fully rigged.
Greg
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She's looking fantastic - great work Dennis, and educational too :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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The realism is so intense that I can't help feeling that I would not like being a sailor having to go out on that yard to get the Spritsail in.
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Thanks for the kind comments gentlemen. The model is probably a year away from complete. On top of that, everything is a bit uncertain as I battle this cancer. Doctors are very optimistic that they can buy me a number of years, but won't know for sure on that until the Chemo is completed in a few months. So far, I can still build and that helps me keep my mind focused as this is such a rewarding hobbie as all of you know. I will probably move back to complete the install of the tops on the masts, then I can begin the yards. The rigging is going to get intense to say the least. Yes, the detail is fun and I am trying to get out a "typical" English Frigate, using the great set of plans I have and backup library, plus the internet and comments from you dear people, I hope will yield a nice model.
Regards,
Dennis
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As a side note on detail. I could not resist including the "typical" "Loo". As I have read, this is how they did it, climing out onto the bow and sitting over that hole in all manner of weather, allowing the waves to flush. It was probably pretty "ripe" out there, one would think {:-{
Dennis
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Boomkins are installed. This completes the initial standing rigging for the bowsprit, so its on to the Royals.
Dennis
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Ok, the foremast is now completed and all standing rigging for that installed. Ready for yards, but first, must build the main royal mast, install and standing rigging for that. Model is getting tall. I ordered the model base from Bluejacket Shipcrafters. Nicely milled out of Cherry. I'm staining and varnishing now. Model will be mounted soon. I also ordered some very nice rigging line from Syren Ship Model Company. The owner makes his own rigging line out of linen/cotton blend using a rope walk. 3 stran is very clean, no fuzz. Expensive at $4.50/15yds in various sizes. Black, beige, dark brown. He also makes beautiful (non running) blocks from either yellow boxwood or pear. Here is the link if you are interested:
http://www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com (http://www.syrenshipmodelcompany.com)
Pictures to follow.
Regards,
Dennis
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OK....I knew I had seen the source of the white halo's reflected on the window...... :D....here it is from October 2013........ O0 ....Derek
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Derek... your fixation on halos is not irrent....... that is a UFO..... they have been following me 8)
Dennis
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All masts and standing rigging are installed. Foremast, lower yard is next.
Dennis
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Nice... :-))
Maybe it is the lighting or camera angle, but the foremast looks like it is leaning forward...?
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It is. I fought that one. There is a natural degree to rake forward, but I ran into tensioning troubles, had to re-do some of my back stay rigging, but could not get all of the rake I wanted out. I'm still assessing if I should demo the stays and rerig that foremast before continuing. I'm sitting in my moaning chair this moment. Tks for the kind tip.
Dennis
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Maybe you could tighten the foremast shroud deadeyes a bit, they should pull it back maybe...?
Or perhaps just ease some of the lines running forward from that mast (cant remember the names of them all...)
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Dennis,
She is beautiful......but that fore top mast needs some attention I am afraid. Not easy to do at this stage without releasing quite a bit of cordage! {:-{
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Sri guys, it is what it is. Too much demo to make straight. Just visualize a strong breeze coming from aft. As someone said a long time ago looking at one of my models..... my, sure is a bunch of sticks and strings. ok2
Dennis
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Dennis,
This is when it is probably most noticeable in any case. Once the spars (and sails ?) are on it will be much less obvious I reckon.
I am really enjoying this build, have learnt a lot on the way through... :-))
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Thank you sir. Believe me, I have thought long and hard on this. Ship rigging is complex and lots of physics involved where one thing affects another, that affects another. I am sorely remiss at not catching this earlier, as the error is rather deep and to make a proper correction would require de-rigging down too far. I too am hoping that further rigging and with the yards up will detract some. Sails would help a great deal and the verdict is still out on wither I want to rig with sails. I have only done that on one other model, using "silkspan" for the sails and having my dear wife sew in the seam lines. It actually worked very well. I stained the tissue with an oil based oak stain and brought in a bellow set to the sails using clear satin varnish, using a fan to fill the sails and let it dry that way... it actually worked. That model is now in a museum in Japan. Hmmmm.... I just might do it on this one. That will add another year to the project.
Dennis
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I think Mrpenguin is right Dennis. When sparred and rigged it will not really be noticeable. I like the sound of your sail system. I have never out sails on a model as I was always concerned that they would not look natural.
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I think Mrpenguin is right Dennis. When sparred and rigged it will not really be noticeable. I like the sound of your sail system. I have never out sails on a model as I was always concerned that they would not look natural.
I seem to recall someone posted a method for smaller boats than this one, where the sails (made from parchment paper I think) were cut an off shape (parallelogram I think) that made them look like they were filled all the time; they looked great. Don't think it would work with a boat this size though...
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Sails are a touchy matter on model ships.... if done right, they can be outstanding, if done wrong, they can ruin a model. I might try a few up and some furled, still thinking on that. If no sails, less running rigging.... I love to add the rigging, but boy, it gets real crazy. Much easier on a large scale model of course. I'm still amazed at the wonderful work a gentleman here on the forum does with miniture scale clipper ships... his sails are perfection and I think he uses wire to support and shape the sails.
Dennis
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Lower foremast yard is ready to mount.
Dennis
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Helper. Approaching a foot of snow today.
Dennis
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Lovely work there Dennis, even the footropes below the spars (often omitted by some modellers).
The "ships cat" appears to be showing you where it wants to be placed {-)
Regards,
Ray.
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The "ships cat" appears to be showing you where it wants to be placed {-)
If he creases that plan anymore, id show him what a foot deep in the a@@@ :) - sorry - snow is like
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I let her crease the plans... she bites! O0 Course yard is mounted and some of the running rigging installed, such as the Braces including the Spritsail, also the Lifts and Pendants. Stunsail Booms are in, but not deployed.
Dennis
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We have all learned to expect top notch work from you Dennis. You have not let us down! :-))
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I'm going to have up my game if I want my future vessel to look that good :o
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Thank you for the kind words. I think we can all agree that this sort of hobby is a labor or love and very rewarding. Perfection will never be reached, although some builders come very close. Believe me, I'm a long way from it. I know all of my errors and I have learned that I must adopt the attitude that I'll do the best I can and if I blow it from time to time, I just move on and not let it defeat me. Only when it stops being fun, is when one should stop and I'm not sure if even then.......
Dennis
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Foremast lower yard and sprit fully rigged in. Lots of block and tackle. Next is up the foremast to the Topsail Yard. I have decided not to hank on sails, so yards will be lowered to storage position. Depth of field on macro lens is tricky, bear with me.
Regards,
Dennis
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@dlancast:
Is this (highlighted) supposed to be a hook, or has something given way?
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Good eye sir.... hook, pulled open.... I closed it.
Dennis
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Foremast, Lower Topsail Yard is made, close view of the Parrels... used some very small beads and card stock and wire.
Dennis
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Out of the morning mist. Second yard is up.
Dennis
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Well technically Dennis, it is not up, it is down! If you know what I mean? Beautiful.
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hahahah... you got me there Footski. I actually had to think about that one. O0
Dennis
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Yard braces and pennants in with associated block and tackle... becoming shear madness in rigging, but all having a specific purpose and logical in dynamics. Next is the foremast royal yard.
Dennis
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Yikes! Which halyard to I yank on to hoist the royal yard?? :embarrassed:
Dennis
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Well, I finished installing all the yards on the Foremast. I still need to install some of the jib running rigging on the bowsprit even though I've elected not to hoist the sails, I can still have some of that running rigging shown. I tried an artsy shot with the camera laying on its back on the deck just below the foremast looking up the mast. As they say, "Sticks and Strings"....
Dennis
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At the most difficult stage now Dennis! Keeping your patience enough to do it all over again.... %%
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Good day folks and a big thanks to IS dept for fixing the problem on this forum. Is good to be back. Like a slow painting, my Frigate is movng along. From the bowsprit to the stern is how I work. I have completed the model up to and including the Foremast at present. Just beginning the install of the lower main yard today. Pictures to follow:
regards,
Dennis
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Lower main yard going in.
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Foremast done.
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@dlancast:
Certainly starting to look like "sticks and string" - be patient!!!
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Lower main mast yard is in. Moving up.
Dennis
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Lower main top is in now.
Dennis
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Main royal yard is in.
Dennis
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Beautiful work Dennis. Can you please explain to us landlubbers the vertical spacing of the yards on the masts. Maybe it's easier to rig the sails onto the yards from this position?
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Thank you Bob. Yes, the spacing is with the yards "at rest" ..... in their lowest position on the mast, typically when no sails are hanked on. The lower or course yards were fixed into position on the mast as far as vertical movement or minimal at best. Yards were then raised up the mast with sails on. Typical in port configuration. I have made a command descision to make just one sail for the model and that will be the Spanker (mizzen), fully loaded and rigged with all seam lines, reef points, running rigging. I have the sail rough cut out from a very light cotton that I think will look more to scale and I've giving the fabric a weathered 'wash'... it will hopefully show what could have been done with this model. I'm just somewhat concerned about time and just how much of that I have to complete this build. So far, I'm smokin along and very pleased with the progress and potential outcome.
Regards,
Dennis
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@dlancast:
Looking nice Dennis....
I am guessing that the yards are getting easier to install as you go, they should now be getting a bit repetitive. Also working higher up the masts would be easier as there are less "sticks and strings" in the way, at least that is what I found. :-))
Will be nice to see the spanker.... I found it very hard to hang for some reason, think I may have had the geometry of some of the lines wrong....
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:-)) I live in awe at this quality, my little plastic fantastic is a cheat to say the least, sparse and with little 'added' detail, hats off to you young man.
Just as a matter of interest at 1:180 if I was to replace my masts with the same timber as yours, how strong would you expect it to be, the bottom of the main mast would be 7/32 (5.5mm) or there abouts, currently my masts are brass as I thought I might have issues with the strength, and 100mm long on the bottom section reducing as it rises, do you think they would stand up to scale winds? in the next vessel I want to lighten the above water load to add more detail.
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Oh, everything gets lighter the higher you go... spars, rigging line, blocks, all of it. For obvious reason.... mainly weight aloft. Its very important to pay attention to line size as you go. One gent mentioned spar strength. All of my lower spars are "built up" in pieces, and banded for the most part... very strong methods. The rest are solid wood and tapered. One thing to remember on a static model as well, most of everything does not move.. I can move things to a degree, just to see how the dynamics work.. but for most of it. Its stays in place. A real advantage in the building process.
Soon will be coming pictures of the "Spanker" sail. I am very pleased with how it turned out and rigged it "complete". Really adds to the effect. Ahhhh... the sun is out and my shop is calling me... so much to do
Dennis
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Mizzen (Spanker) is in and fully rigged with sail and appropriate flag. Next will be to finish the yards then moving on to completing the ships boats of which I have some exciting ideas for display. Getting close
Enjoy,
Dennis
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Mizzen course yard is in. One more yard to go and then its on to the Long Boats
Dennis
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@dlancast:
Looking nice Dennis.
I seem to recall the mizzen mast sometimes does things differently...
Working on my VERY limited knowledge of this type of ship, I believe there was not normally a "course" sail on the mizzen; this was effectively replaced by the (fore & aft) spanker. I think the lowest cross member on the mizzen mast (the one you have just fitted) may actually be called the "crossjack" (sometimes abbreviated to "cro'jack") and its function is to control the lower edge of the mizzen topsail above it....
However I may well be mistaken...... :-))
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Lovely work Dennis. :-)) :-))
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Yes, very true sir. Around 1700, that aft Mizzen sail was generally a Lateen Sail, with the yard called a Crossjack. However, in 1800 period the Mizzen or Spanker sail came into practice, with the yard being termed "the Course". Many variations of course and more research needed on my part to bring in some more details. Fortunantely, there is a ton of data and research out there. Gotta love it.
Dennis
(ref. A Modeller's Guide to Rigging by A. Rchard Mansir; The Masting and Rigging of English Ships of War 1625-1860 by Lees.)
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Thanks Dennis,
I knew you would have the answer!!
It never ceases to amaze me how complex people have managed to make things around these old sailing ships, and just coming to terms with the fact that every piece of the ship seems to have a name or sometimes multiple names.
I suppose if you spent years at sea there would be long periods of staring up at all that "sticks and strings" and saying to yourself, "hmmm... now what would be a good name for that...??" {-)
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hahahah.... trust me when I say, I really don't think in the terms of terminology. They are still just sticks and strings that perform a very complex dance and I think that is what holds my attention and captivates me.... I even tug at a line that is finally attached to a belaying pin on the pin rail and look aloft to see the tip of a yard move in a predicted direction... form and function. I was watching a video of a square rigger sailing and all of the commands being given, just to move one sail... I wondered if they would ever finish the dialog before the wind died! %%
Dennis
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All yards are now installed. Ships boats remaining to complete the model.
Dennis
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Brilliant Dennis. When I got to this stage with my Victory, I simply ran out of steam and decided to leave the ships boats off the model! A decision I have not regretted. %%
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Tks Footski, Yes... tempting to case her up and be done with it. However, I have really wanted to show a ships boat being hoisted in the "launch " position, using the proper block and tackle and yard configuration. I don't believe I have ever seen that modeled before, although, I am sure it has been done. I have seen a ships boat lowered to the model base.. but that made no sense to me to do it that way. So, now I'm starting to fit out the detail of a much smaller boat, giving as much detail as I can. I'll show one boat on the ship, in her chocks and one suspended over the side with her lifting tackle.... this will take me a while.
Regards,
Dennis
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"As much detail as I can"...
looking forward to this :-))
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Tks Footski, Yes... tempting to case her up and be done with it. However, I have really wanted to show a ships boat being hoisted in the "launch " position, using the proper block and tackle and yard configuration. I don't believe I have ever seen that modeled before, although, I am sure it has been done. I have seen a ships boat lowered to the model base.. but that made no sense to me to do it that way. So, now I'm starting to fit out the detail of a much smaller boat, giving as much detail as I can. I'll show one boat on the ship, in her chocks and one suspended over the side with her lifting tackle.... this will take me a while.
Regards,
Dennis
see the excellent victory http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43574.25.html (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43574.25.html) post #49
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Thank you so much for that link on the Victory.... awesome work and yes, a ships boat going over the side or being lifted aboard! First I have seen... told ya, its probably been done already. I bow to the "master" and am always amazed at what some model ship builders can do. I'm just a hacker and I know it.... but its truly fun for those in it.
Dennis
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Smaller of the two ships boats mounted.
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Hacker - youre avin a laff aint ya guv {-) - your quality rigging etc is to die for O0
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Thank you kind sir. Its the humble side of me. This hobby has so many fine lines of expertise that when presented with a Masters work, it brings me to my knees. I have told myself over the years to just strive to do the best that I can and to keep pushing myself to improve as I go. I have discovered that its the builders who know how to bring in the realism... proper scale, weathering, color.. that when they set a camera on deck and take a shot, that the result is as good a being there! Now, that Victory, 20 plus years in the build, one gets taken away to another date and time... truly amazing. Then, with most of you dear folks, you bring all that realism onto the water and how real does that get!
Dennis
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I have sat here and read this thread a couple times, I have stared at the pictures and I just want to say what a great craftsman you are.
I know you will say you just play with it and others are better but I wish I had half your skill and a quarter of your patience.
Thank you for sharing not only your wonderful work but your knowledge and humour with us all.
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Thank you for your kind remarks sir. I am humbled. As some of you know, I am currently fighting cancer, its in my blood and bones and my doctors are working well as a team to gain me some more time. My Faith is strong and is what sustains me. I have asked God to help me finish this model so that I could leave it to the family. He seems to be granting my wish. I feel fine actually, just suffering from being tired from the radiation. My next project is to finish a 15ft sailing skiff I started last year and so do want to enter it in the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival.. perhaps He will grant me time for that as well. Life is what one puts into it and each day is to be treasured. This group has given me a ton of joy and interest and ideas to help me along the way.
Fairwinds and Smooth sailing to all.
Dennis
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@dlancast:
Dennis, keep going while ever you can mate....
You can be assured that you are bringing us great joy with your building, and we really appreciate that you have chosen to share your building with us; I for one have learnt a great deal on the way through this boat.
Our thoughts are with you.. O0
:-))
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just as an aside question - is the hull build on another thread ? - addendum - should have read page 1 again - sorry
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Sri about that. My original thread started back in 2011 with the hull and plating, etc. I tried a search and did not have alot of luck finding that original thread. If you go to page one, you will pick me up as I began the masting rigging of the model. I think I changed the name of my thread as I started by removing Ajax per the name of the kit I'm working from. I then later discovered that there probably was never a Frigate named "Ajax" (common with kits), so I changed it to a general English Frigate of 1760 vintage. Oh well.
Regards,
Dennis
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Here is a link that I believe is the hull build thread... and an image from that thread...
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,33649.0.html
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I found the original thread with the search function - I just put AJAX in and it was the second item, almost finished reading it before going onto some other job, so will need to finish it before I decide on the next project. :-))
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Tks for doing that, I knew it was in there somewhere. Small ships boat is completed and mounted.
Dennis
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Well folks, my English Frigate is essentially complete with the installation of the larger ships boat, now suspended in her cradle. What remains now is to build a case for her and get her on display. I will continue to post until that time. Must move on to the big boat out in my garage shop. Pics to follow here:
Tks for all of your kindness and support over the years. Lord willing, I do have plans to build a true plank of frame Admiralty model, open framed, min. rigging.
Best regards,
Dennis :-))
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Well ........thankyou Dennis for inviting MBM to your brilliant build thread :-))
Those 553 days have certainly flown..........congratulations..........Derek
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A magnificent build. This has without a doubt been the best thread on the site over the last year or so.
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Dennis,
Thank you for sharing this build.
I found my way to it part way through but have been back over both this thread and the hull build thread, a joy to follow.
I have really enjoyed it and have also learnt a great deal on the way through!
:-))
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thank you sir..... the build has been a real joy. I'm currently working through the mounting stages to the cherry wood base I purchased on-line. I have found a great case maker in Texas (USA) who may be building me an unfinished kit out of cherry. Awaiting his quote forthcoming. I just don't feel I have the time now to build my own and need to move on to my full size skiff build. Each day is a premium for me.
Regards,
Dennis
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... I just don't feel I have the time now to build my own and need to move on to my full size skiff build. Each day is a premium for me.
Regards,
Dennis
Do what you feel is right Dennis, after all you only have to please yourself!!
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Just a quick update folks. I have finished the English Frigate build and have been waiting on the case frame to be built. I have the frame and just got the glass cut. Case is huge and heavy. Next week, I will be having friends over to assist on assembly and setup and will provide photos at that time.
In the mean time, I have been busy with finish work on a 15ft sailing skiff that I have been building. I am also battling cancer still and dealing with radiation treatments and side affects. All in the good Lords hands how much time I have left, but wanted to get these projects completed in due time.
So, I'm still walking around and enjoying lurking on the site. Blessings to all.
Dennis
Bellingham, Washington, USA
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Thanks for the update Dennis. There must be a great sense of satisfaction as you put your lovely model into the display case. I have enjoyed your build enormously.
Have you sailed your skiff yet? You might slip a couple of pictures of her in as well - not strictly a model boat I know, but I reckon we would all love to see your handiwork.
I hope all goes for the best with the treatment.
Greg
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1:1 are still acceptable in my eyes :-))
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I can't wait to see the finished ship complete with the display case, it must look superb. I wish you well Dennis and hope you can go on battling for many more years.
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A truly awesome job sir. I have been following this build with admiration from the start.
With sincere best wishes that you are able to overcome the challenge to your health. We are all thinking of you.
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A brilliant model for which you should be very proud. Well done and I hope
your medical problems are well on the way to being solved.
Best wishes
Geoff
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Congratulations! She looks great! Don't forget to post pictures when she's in her home.
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Done.
Dennis
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She's an absolute stunner: full credit to you! :-))
Many thanks - I've loved this build - and I look forward to more from you!
Andy
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Dennis,
"Done" - just one word for all that work?
"Magnificent" I reckon!!!
Or "Awesome" if the observer is of a younger generation ;)
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Tks for the kind responses. I like to call it a labor of love. That case took 4 strong men to assist in the setup. Huge and over 100lbs (us). My vision for the next project may be open plank of frame "admiralty style". Like so many of these ship models, the fine detail work is covered up.
Fairwinds,
Dennis
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"Done" and quite simply superb Dennis.
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Fantastic job - and an excellent thread to have followed - congratulations Dennis. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Just a heads up folks. I've started a static build of a U.S. Navy Destroyer over in the Military-Navy-ship section of the forum in case anyone is interested. I'm still kickin, thank the good Lord.
Regards,
Dennis
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Good on you Dennis. I will have a look at your new build...