Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: JayDee on December 15, 2012, 11:40:57 pm
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Hello,
I would like offer my condolences and sincere sympathy to all the Mothers and Fathers and all the Persons that are suffering in the tragedy of Newtown.
JayDee.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20734267 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/20734267)
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And so would we all.
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Here here.................It has brought me to tears, and those parents and teachers who have lost loved ones and witnessed the carnage will never fully recover........a tragic outcome for a country that so specifically wants it, in it's constitution, to "have the right to bear arms"
something wrong somewhere,
God bless them all in these dark times and I can only wish peace upon them.
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Our hearts do go out to all those torn apart by those dreadful events. Yes let's wish them whatever peace they can find Neil, and let's also wish a little peace for ourselves too. We bear the scars of the many evil acts that the tv news brings into our lives so frequently. There is no comprehension possible for us as to the workings of such sick minds.
Dave
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A truely tragic event. What else can one say? I feel so sad and helpless when i read of things like this. Rip John
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The problem in America is that the gun culture makes it all too easy for sick minds to obtain weapons of mass slaughter. Why do they feel that the civilian population need to be able to buy assault rifles for heaven's sake?
Colin
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Such a selfish, unnecessary waste of innocent lives.... . deepest sympathy to all the families.
I wonder if the 'founding fathers' could have time travelled, 'right to bear arms' would be the first thing to be torn out? (BTW, what the intention of that clause?)
... but how do you fix it retrospectively?
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The 'Right to bear Arms' is enshrined in the US Constitution but that was over 200 years ago when people were running around wearing swords. One might have hoped that civilisation had moved on a bit by now. You look at the Americans with their love of guns (apparently 47% of households have at least one) and then at the Muslim extremists in the Middle East proudly waving their guns around and wonder just how much difference there is...
Colin
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You would probably have to ask the founding fathers that one Martin, but probably something along the lines of "so that ordinary Americans can take up arms to defend their State or country in any time of war". I don't think they ever thought that when the constitution was written that one line would become so significant in history.
Mark
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I live in a gun crazy society where gun owning absolutists rule the country with ridiculous ideas based on a loosely worded US Constitution and translated by the US Supreme Court justices, that states that is a given right, as a US citizen, to bare arms. What is wrong about this is that the US Constitution was written when guns were very primitive and the militia were the people the 2nd amendment in the US Constitution was written for. Now we have weapons made for killing hundreds of human beings in a matter of seconds. These weapons can be bought at gun shows, the Internet and by private sales, without any background check or waiting period. Over 40% of gun sales are sold in this manner. It is akin to having a gun supermarket next door to an insane asylum .
What is crazy is that an automobile legally requires users license, liability insurance and a disabling switch.
Nothing is required for gun ownership. If there would have been a law making gun owners lock up their guns in a gun safe, this horrendous act of murderous evil may not have happened.
America needs to eliminate all hand gun sales and assault weapons. America would still have enough number of weapons to last another 50 years for more killing sprees like the Newtown massacre. We must begin with the maturation of our society somewhere in time.
I think Piers Morgan has the smartest resolution . Stop selling man-killing guns.
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An act of sheer horror.
The families who mourn the loss of a loved one but they were saved the sight that the emergency teams
Have witnessed and will now never forget.
You have to feel for them all.
Martin google "charleston hestons gun room" and look at the pictures regardless of what the founding fathers said or meant with the regard to the right to bear arms I am pretty sure this is not what they had in mind
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An act of sheer horror.
The families who mourn the loss of a loved one but they were saved the sight that the emergency teams
Have witnessed and will now never forget.
You have to feel for them all.
Martin google "charleston hestons gun room" and look at the pictures regardless of what the founding fathers said or meant with the regard to the right to bear arms I am pretty sure this is not what they had in mind
Although I'm sure he owened some don't think they wer Hestons but another gentleman Named Stern, so just as bad really
http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/gunvault.asp (http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/gunvault.asp)
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I think Piers Morgan has the smartest resolution . Stop selling man-killing guns.
I think that is the only sensible thing I have ever heard Piers Morgan say other than he was leaving this country for another..........sadly for our US brethren he chose you.
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Although I'm sure he owened some don't think they wer Hestons but another gentleman Named Stern, so just as bad really
http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/gunvault.asp (http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/gunvault.asp)
Larry, as you say regardless who owned there is still 1 question WHY??
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How very sad.
Deepest condolences to the families who lost a loved one in this tragic event.
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As Many have said Deepest condolences to the families who lost loved a one in this tragic event.
As to Why..We shall again probably never really know killed himself.
And even with this tradgedy I doubt anything will ever change as it will take a very brave politician to try to even get outlawing guns changed. And i think it would take a lot longer than 50 years to get it sorted.
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Martin google "Charlton Hestons gun room" and look at the pictures regardless of what the founding fathers said or meant with the regard to the right to bear arms I am pretty sure this is not what they had in mind
:o
http://tinyurl.com/c6py6d4 (http://tinyurl.com/c6py6d4)
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So sad and a meaningless loss of life America should get in line with other Countries and BAN GUNS
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
Dave
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Hmm, ban guns. Yes that works, no-one has died since we did that?
Have a mate that lives in Michigan, and he has a license to carry, local police would take about thirty minutes to get to him in the event of an armed attack on him and his. Ban guns? good idea, but the three coyotes between him and his car would love that and "They're more frightened of humans" brigade?
Not when they're b***dy hungry.
Ban cars, they are the biggest killers. O0
Regards Ian.
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Despite the population of the United Kingdom not having similar access to guns as our cousins in the United States, lets not forget that we have been subjected to similar events here.
Unfortunately, we have also seen perpetrators of these types of tragedies using a selection of alternate weapons, including Machete's, Grenades, and even a 'Transit' Van in a recent Hit-&-Run spree.
Whilst it is easy to blame 'Guns' and 'Gun Culture', lets not lose sight of the fact that they are just a convenient weapon of choice, and it's the murdering scum-bag using the weapon (any weapon) who is responsible, and not the weapon itself.
Although it isn't an ideal solution, one can only speculate whether the tragic event at Sandy Hook would have been prevented if the school was patrolled by armed security.
Deepest condolences to everyone affected by this tragedy
Andy
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Down here in darkest Surrey you'd be lucky to get any response at all - but then I'm not expecting to be attacked by an armed gang anytime soon.
Andy, I appreciate the argument that guns don't kill people, people kill people which is quite true. But having a gun makes it a heck of a lot easier to kill people. Using close up weapons such as knives etc. is much more difficult as people can run away and the assailant is more likely be be disarmed so the casualty list is likely to be a lot lower than if a gun is used in a given situation.
Also, shooting people is relatively easy, you just point the gun and squeeze the trigger (like a video game I suppose). Sticking knives into people is a lot messier for the assailant.
Quite possibly we have a similar proportion of homicidal mentally disturbed people to the US, the difference ois that over here they are much less likely to have access to firearms. In the few cases that they do then you do get shootings on the US scale.
Possibly if the school had armed security then things might have been different but who wants to live in a society where you need armed guards in schools?
Colin
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Yes sadly man can find a way to kill with anything to hand. So only the severest of deterents will reduce the numbers. Nothing will stop it completely.
Society here has chosen not to hang murderers, then we choose to release them later on. Then we cry when some of them murder again..... Quite a few people are slain by previously released murders. Same with rapists and paedos - why do we act so surprised?
Don't you sometimes feel the media revel in these events?
Dave
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In most cases the perpetrator takes their own life so deterrents are out of the question.
Guns can be obtained if needed in UK, but nearly all of this type of shooting in US or UK
are by people who already have the weapons in thei posession either legally or illegally.
Ned
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are by people who already have the weapons in thei posession either legally or illegally.
How many types are there??????????
Regards Ian
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2
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TURN OFF THE NEWS.......
Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :
"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.
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It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.
CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.
You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."
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I think that the right to bear arms is enshrined in the Constitution so that fellow americans can band together to rebel, and defend themselves, against oppressive regimes such as that of King George. Given that they now elect their own governments, the Constitution may be a teensy bit out of date.
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Regarding ,Charlton Heston,s collection ,they are all film extra ,non work ,the man collected them ,men collect most things ,its just unfortunate Charlton is not around to answer that .The media do love these horrible events ,they sell papers whatever ,but hey ,whats news ,this world is going worse ,there is law full killing going on across the world ,Afgan to name one place , glass houses spring to mind ,a friend and dear confidate of mine was found dead three weeks ago ,the causes are not known yet ,no mention in paper ,just a statistic ,the mental case who did these horrible deads will meet his maker ,wo betide .
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The 2nd amendment is an amendment . That can be amended again with the American citizens will.
The fact is that America is using prisons as mental institutions. 56% of prisoners are mentally ill.
Ronald Reagen dismantled the mental health care in America, many years ago.
The gun lobby would install a gun shop in a mental institution, if the could get away with it.
The mentally ill shooter could have been put away , if the mother would have had the fortitude to do that.
She could have stored her guns in a gun safe. This should be a minimum requirement to obtain a gun permit, as well as requiring a liability insurance policy for each gun owned. We require this for automobiles, why not guns ? America could require that all gun sales require background checks and waiting periods. This would have averted the Newton Hook School shootings.
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I think that the right to bear arms is enshrined in the Constitution so that fellow americans can band together to rebel, and defend themselves, against oppressive regimes such as that of King George. Given that they now elect their own governments, the Constitution may be a teensy bit out of date.
Quite right, viewed objectively, Americans do seem to be in denial on the subject and simply refuse to face up to it. The original intentions of the framers of the Constitution have been twisted out of all recognition. As said previously, I'm sure they would be horrified at the current interpretation being placed upon the 'Right to Bear Arms'.
I have visited the States on a couple of occasions and it is weird to see the signs in the airports reminding passengers to ensure that any firearms are placed in their checked baggage. It does make you wonder just what sort of society this is. By contrast, when travelling to Canada you feel that you are in a much more civilised society.
Colin
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The Americans I have been fortunate enough to meet have all been very nice people and altogether civilised. As everywhere there are vociferous groups that drown out the quieter voices of sanity.
Dave
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As everywhere there are vociferous groups that drown out the quieter voices of sanity.
Those would be the American gun lobbyists.
They blackmail every political candidate that asks for sane gun control.
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Having watched a couple of programmes about gun control, it beggars belief that someone
with an ID, can go into a gun shop, on a whim, a by a gun and enough bullets, to shot up
a whole town...... and no one, NO ONE thinks that strange?!?!???
The news reports are saying guns sales are going through the roof..... which I do understand,
many people are plane ____ scared!
Quite rightly so in my opinion! :((
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What is a real pity is that the fanatical fundamentalist absolutists were preaching to the Republicans that if Obama was re-elected that he would ban all guns. This caused record massive gun sales in November and this month. It is easier to ban lawn darts than assault weapons because gun lobbies are not selling darts.
America is easily swayed by conservative tv and radio, even though they are speaking untruths 99% of the time. America had a much higher literacy rate once upon a time but now we are mostly dumbed down to the level of sheeple.
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Australia banned unregulated gun ownership a long time ago, but it is still possible to own guns - if you have a legitimate reason. For example, farmers are allowed to own guns for vermin control. Members of rifle and gun clubs are also allowed ownership, as are genuine collectors. However, in all cases a permit must be obtained, which requires a test of the applicant's knowledge of gun laws and the safe keeping of weapons. There are also strict rules governing the storage and safe keeping of weapons and ammunition. Assault weapons, such as the AK47 are totally banned.
Nevertheless, it is still possible to obtain guns illegally, as evidenced by the number of drive by shootings in Sydney recently. Criminals will always find a way to circumvent the law, but strict gun control definitely makes it more difficult to obtain such weapons. News reports of President Obama's comments following the Newtown shooting suggest that he may be seriously considering tightening America's gun laws, although he will face stiff opposition from the red neck brigade.
Peter.
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From one of our polititans.
Unfortunately we still have shootings as it is still to easy to buy them but at least there is some control down here. It took the Port Aurther massacre to bring in the controls.
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FOX NEWS preaches extremism. And they are the exact opposite of National Public Radio.
They despise www.factcheck.org
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It took the Port Arthur massacre to bring in the controls.
Very true, Brian. Unfortunately it usually take such events to motivate politicians >>:-(
Peter.
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I know this is a terrible tragedy but what can you expect in a country when not only can you keep
semi-automatic rifles but there don't seem to be any restrictions on their security.
I used to have a couple of fairly inocuous .22 rifles - one for target shooting and one for rough shooting
they had to be kept in an approved steel gun cupboard with two locks and bolted to the wall/floor. The ammo was in
a locked compartment within and that had to have a different key. My certificate and security precautions were checked
every 3rd year - as was my requirement for having them. ( had to be in a rifle club and had to have land to shoot over)
If they have to have their guns because the constitution allows it at least make it law to have some form of security
so the children can't get ready access to guns/ammo
Geoff
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Quite Geoff, there seem to be a lot of accidents in the US where children get access to their parent's guns with fatal consequences.
Colin
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Hello,
Everybody agrees that the first persons on the scene at the school saw things they will never forget.
The photos taken of that scene should be published Internationaly, so that nobody ever forgets.
If they were published, Guns would be handed in by the lorry load.
John. <:(
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So true !
We should never forget the faces of the children. They had so many years of life to live.
What a ripple affect of insanity.
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Some disturbing stats quoted by New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg today.
- Every day gun violence takes the lives of 34 Americans.
- During the Presidents 4 year term of office 48,000 will be killed by guns.
- Since 1968, and the assassinations of RFK and Martin Luther King, roughly 400,000 Americans have been killed with guns, more than in WW2.
Figures incomprehensible to us average Brits, where gun related deaths are approx 0.1 per 100,000, against 320 in the US.
Against this the bad guys there are usually far better armed than the Police, and in remoter rural areas it can take half an hour for a 911 response following an attempted break in where burglars are frequently armed.
America is a wonderful nation, but has some serious problems. I have visited gun shops there, and have been both amazed and frightened just looking at what they have for sale.
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There are parents training their kids in the States to shoot at the age of 5 or less. They can buy rifles designed & built for kids. It is BIG business. We had registration of rifles in Canada but the present Government got rid of the act, even though the country's police forces wanted it kept.The US National Rifle Association was involved in getting rid of the law. The gun culture in the U S is insane & actively promoted by the National Rifle Association of which Heston lobbied for at every opportunity. It is a sick country with regular police swaggering about with pistols on their hips & shotguns & rifles in racks in the back windows of their 4 wheel drive pickup trucks. It is still the Wild West but no longer with a horse & a single shot rifle or hand gun. You have to experience it to believe it, it is not possible to describe how bad it is.Kids 10 years old take loaded guns to school & is not isolated either. Nothing will be done & it sadly will all be repeated again & again & the innocent will die, what a sad & lost society. Mick B.
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This topic started as a reaction to the tragedy in Newtown, Connecticut and is now deviating into debate about guns and gun control.
Whilst both are emotive subjects, and are evoking a broad range of responses, they are not what one would normally expect to encounter on a family-oriented modelling site.
Now, before anyone thinks this is a 'Non-boat related Chit-Chat' argument, don't worry, just bear with me for a little longer as I've had a thought which I'd like to share.
Following Pres. Obama's speech including a presentation of the necessity for change at the Memorial Service, and as more information is released through the media, this topic is inevitably going to become a political subject (if it's not already). Therefore, I wonder if maybe 'we' could also use this awful event to makes some changes too.
I've noticed that some of the non-boat related topics are started due to the seriousness of the subject-matter. These subjects also seem to generate reasonably similar opinions as 'commonsense' generally dictates the overall response.
However, as these subjects are often only relevant at the time they are occurring, and frequently become the source of a secondary 'debate' about the prevalence of non-boat related issues, could we not use them to do something positive as a model-boating community?
Quite simply, once a topic (such as this one) has been started, and if, after a short period of time the depth of feeling is obviously leaning a certain way, maybe an email (or similar) could be sent from the Mayhem Forum to advise the 'subject(s)' of that topic of our thoughts at that time.
Whilst not suggesting that the Forum takes any formal stance and, using this topic as a prime example, could we forward a 'group' correspondence to the community of Newtown advising them that at this time, a number of members of Model Boat Mayhem Forum would like to them to know that our thoughts are with them?.
We could also send a message to an 'official body', stating that this subject was raised on our Forum, and that a group of like-minded contributors do feel moved to announce that we hope steps are put in place to reduce the possibility of something similar happening again.
As I said, this is just a initial idea and I'll possibly regret writing it when I think about it for longer. However, whilst not wanting to become revolutionary, reactionary or political, it does seem a shame that we are all moved to add a reply to various subjects as and when they are raised in the Chit-chat section of a site where we share a common interest, but do wonder whether many of us put the same effort into making a comment where it might make a slight difference.
Andy
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Consideration and empathy are our watchwords here. :police:
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Andy,
Good idea.
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Think you are barking up the wrong tree Andy - the American society has got to be SICK - a gunsmith was
interviewed on BBC News and said yesterday he had his best days sales in 20 years and would probably exceed
it today. With that sort of mindset do you really think they would listen to reason with regards to reducing the number
of firearms. I do sometimes think they live on a different planet to the rest of us.
Geoff
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Nothing to do with mindset Geoff, the guy sells guns for a living and not everyone sold is for a killer. Totally understandable the sales increased for personal protection.
There are many in this country I wouldn't trust with a peashooter.
Regards Ian.
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And they are all in Westminster :police: :police:
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Whilst not suggesting that the Forum takes any formal stance and, using this topic as a prime example, could we forward a 'group' correspondence to the community of Newtown advising them that at this time, a number of members of Model Boat Mayhem Forum would like to them to know that our thoughts are with them?.
We could also send a message to an 'official body', stating that this subject was raised on our Forum, and that a group of like-minded contributors do feel moved to announce that we hope steps are put in place to reduce the possibility of something similar happening again.
My embolding.
While I believe that non-boating discussions are acceptable in 'Chit-chat' I think that any sort of 'group' action like this on non-boating matters would be wholly inappropriate. It would inescapably suggest that the forum has taken a formal stance.
If there are people that think transmitting their thoughts or whatever to complete strangers 3000 miles away will help, then they can and should do it themselves personally - it will likely be more effective than a somewhat impersonal message from 'a forum' anyway.
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I fully agree with you Mike, we should never become a forum on a mission to right the wrongs of this world, there are more than enough sticking their nose in where they should not already. Mick B.
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I guess what I find depressing is waking up one morning, and finding out that
some 20 year old madman on East coast, and a gunsmith on television represent me,
the people I know, and the rest of the United States...
I don't own a gun, I have never owned a gun, I have never seen a need to own a gun.
It's the local police that scare me, should I get pulled over for a traffic infraction, and they walk up
to my automobile with their hand on their gun... The police actually scare me a bit more than
any person on the street.
{:-{
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Most gun owners weapons cause injury to those people nearest.
My wife and I previously owned handguns for protection, when we traveled on business with large sums of cash. When my wife retired, we kept the gun in a locked tool box in the garage. The lawn mower kid stole our toolbox, with the gun, and was twirling the gun in front of his friends when it discharged and blew his finger off.
He did not mow our lawn after that.
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A commendable idea Andy, but I agree with the others that is not for the Forum as a whole to take a position on this. personal expressions of sympathy may well be appreciated by those who have suffered from this tragedy but one thing is certain and that is that advice on gun control from a bunch of Brits would be regarded as offensive by all sections of American society.
There is a major cultural gulf between the UK (and probably much of the rest of Europe and many other countries) and the US on this issue. We find it quite incomprehensible that civilians would want to own weapons of mass slaughter while in the US, the majority of the population appear to regard it as being an inalienable right and perfectly normal. As has been pointed out above, the immediate reaction to the tragedy has been for citizens to buy more guns 'for their own protection'. Just how that is supposed to work in practice I simply can't imagine. If somebody shoots you then you are unlikely to be in a position to fetch your weapon and shoot back - you'll be dead!
Trigger happy untrained civilians with military weapons are a menace and are just as likely to shoot the innocent as the bad guys. There don't appear to be many, if any, recorded instances where interventions by heroic gun toting civilians have saved the day against deranged madmen with assault rifles but there seems to be some sort of inbuilt assumption that this is a realistic scenario. The record of supposedly trained law enforcement officers is not great in these situations either. When they open fire innocent individuals are rather prone to get hit.
Given the number of guns in circulation in the US and current attitudes, it seems impossible that any realistic curbs can be enacted, things have simply gone too far and the US will just have to live with regular tragedies on this scale however unpalatable that may be.
Something seems to have gone badly wrong in the American psyche and it may take generations before it can be resolved. People tend to think that Americans are just like us but 3,000 miles further West. They aren't, they are foreign with very different mindsets under the surface veneer. People also think that Russians are sort of East Europeans really, but they aren't either, they think in very different ways that we would not be very comfortable with.
It's a rough old world really.
Colin
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Please, can we not talk of Guns and ownership any more, but return to the actual event and any further news.
ken
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Please, can we not talk of Guns and ownership any more, but return to the actual event and any further news.
ken
Is there any point in repeating here what we can all see on the news anyway?
Andy
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Ken,
I don't see what further news there will be. A lot of children are dead and the citizens of the town are understandably finding the attention of the US and world press intrusive and upsetting. They need to be left to come to terms with their terrible loss. There is little if anything we can do to assist in that process.
What this event has highlighted is the general attitude held by American citizens to holding military grade firearms and I think that a lot of people have found this to be alarming and unhealthy Given the position that America takes in effectively leading the Western nations I think that it is a concern for us all as it must colour the policies that they adopt. I used to think that the Americans were essentially the same as us but this, and a couple of visits over there has demonstrated that it isn't the case at all. They have a myth that America is a shining city upon a hill but I think they are deluding themselves.
Colin
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Thread closed out of respect for the Children of Newtown
Let the children Rest in Peace