Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: Ramon on January 05, 2013, 10:00:41 pm
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Hi - following this comment on the Serenity and Vela thread -
Ramon
How about posting some pictures of your new boat. I have seen only a few pictures of a Focus but nothing up close. Like to see inside the hull and some nice profile pictures. I know you will enjoy this terrific hobby!
Boomer
Here are a few pics taken when sailing today which I hope may be of interest to some as well as 'Boomer'
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-0vcvj94y09U/UOh31IzlctI/AAAAAAAAGtk/l1CMUvPPRGA/s640/Focus%2520001.jpg)
This was the first one bought for myself around September
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-J6Vu-8a03uA/UOh4fkzWTTI/AAAAAAAAGuE/n-UWgx9eYg4/s640/Focus%2520023.jpg)
The second one - for the 'missus' following encouragement from the great bunch of guys at the Norwich Model Boat club came a couple of months later
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q-_C46HMZZM/UOh4JbkgJQI/AAAAAAAAGts/BAQrzyHZhVc/s640/Focus%2520012.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_SYq35rhgMg/UOh4NzEeP_I/AAAAAAAAGt0/GrFu5ndWwt0/s640/Focus%2520008.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RIOWKi_ijsM/UOh4UD184cI/AAAAAAAAGt8/ItB6sHQZK04/s640/Focus%2520002.jpg)
A few small mods have been made - following the fore stay breaking on the intial outing all the rigging was replaced with 100 lb braided line. Batteries have been increased to 6v to improve the winch speed and the winch system in the first boat was changed to a continuous loop.
Biggest drawback was the link type fittings which are closed as a butt joint which can and did open and pull apart. This was solved by opening them up and twisting out of line slightly. Then, holding in a vice, the inner faces were filed at a taper to allow them to be closed 'overcentre' which has proved very successful.
Other refinements have been to provide better adjustment of the sails - not exactly neccessary - just 'me'.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fdmoXF_wx4I/UOiGyre40EI/AAAAAAAAGu4/DevRiQbNk78/s640/Focus%25200001.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QiHAl_aEDR4/UOiG7zlUUkI/AAAAAAAAGwM/oesSd4rKq_E/s640/Focus%25200002.jpg)
The R/C comes ready fitted as here. As the batteries are now 5 cells they dont fit quite as well as the 4 cell packs hence the band to stop them moving
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aMMePotg3dA/UOiHiVhlU_I/AAAAAAAAGwc/iQgXC6gR0qE/s640/Focus%25200006.jpg)
With what appears to me as a very nicely moulded glass resin hull everything is included except the batteries - this is my first 'ART anything' model and I was very impressed with the overall quality despite the small items mentioned above. Apparently - according to those who know such things - (I/we are on a very steep learning curve right now to make such a comment) it sails well too and is certainly providing a great deal of enjoyment. At least one longstanding NMBC member has purchased one since seeing it and several have expressed an interest.
As said hope this is of interest to someone
Regards - Ramon
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they both look very well presented , i took up model yacht sailing a couple of years ago , which i find very relaxing , hope your enjoying it as much as i do ?
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Looks nice Ramon
I've been over to eaton park a few time now with my 1m to do some testing. I'm a club member at the Broads club that sail at Filby broad. I live in holt though so eaton is a bit more convenient for some testing.
Maybe see you up there sometime? Are you planning on racing at any stage?
Steve
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Hi guys, as you may have read on the other thread this is a new venture for me though I have made models of various kinds for many years.
Although that includes a few boats I have only ever 'thought' about making a yacht but have never really quite found the right moment. The decision to buy this ARTS boat has turned out to be the right one at this point in time and I find sailing it more and more infectious each time it goes on the water. My thoughts are very much to building something later this year.
Racing ? well NMBC race each Saturday March through October so as yet I haven't had the pleasure but despite my initial reluctance to get involved competitively I am beginning to see the potential attraction. Several stay after the racing and that's when I and my wife have been so warmly welcomed - we are now there most Saturdays Steve, look forward to meeting you sometime.
Regards - Ramon
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Racing is great fun as it feels like an achievement at the end of the day and gives you something to go for. I've only been doing this since September last year, coming from model aircraft and am really enjoying the bankside banter that goes around!
I was racing my IOM yesterday at the Oliver Lee cup at the Chelmsford club site, it was excellent to meet some of the best racers around and gain tips on boat setup, so much so the first race after one of the guys "tweeked" my boat I managed a win in the B fleet and moved into the A fleet for a few more races.
This is a really enjoyable hobby and if i'm around i'll pop over to Eaton when they are not racing to say hello.
Steve
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Hi Ramon
Considering the focus as a potential yacht for later in the year
I'd be interested to read in more detail about the continuous loop winch conversion you performed on the first yacht
regards
BB
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Hi BB,
As I've already said this is a completely new venture for me but it is on a background of modelling for many years. I do not however have the experience of sailing/yachts as yet to be able to comment knowlegeably but for what it is worth this is what was done and the reasons why.
Firstly the yacht comes with fixed sheeting points on both booms and equal run out on both sheets. Consquently the jib is allowed to move through the same arc as the main boom. With both booms out on the run that meant the jib was too far out - well past 90 degrees and spilling wind.
After reading as much as I could find about this situation I decided to fit a closed loop to eliminate the single strain on the winch and adopt a method of restricting the jib sheet movement. To me this appears to be working well - how it is seen by others with far more experience remains to be seen and I'm certainly open for constructive critiscism.
The yacht's existing system is fitted with an after pulley at the rudder
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3E6TfsPzuCc/UP15hRvsiyI/AAAAAAAAG7s/8MrL9Wr836Y/s640/DSCF1582.JPG)
The forward pulley is accesible by removing this sheeting housing
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-c7UNmY3OXtU/UP15j7XDZGI/AAAAAAAAG70/HhbWkQcwCT8/s640/DSCF1583.JPG)
The closed loop line is in two lengths attached to the winch drum at each end and a number of turns applied both ways. Using a length of soft copper wire as a hook the line was taken through both pulleys and siezed to two thimbles. The tension was applied by another seizing between the two eyes. This was the third attempt - the first had a spring between which stretched, the second had a stretched 'O' ring which appeard fine until the next day when overnight the thimble had cut through it with the tension.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aynCZ2k0TZw/UP15nmG8u2I/AAAAAAAAG78/gcBLsOnzHJs/s640/DSCF1584.JPG)
The sheeting lines are attached to the aft thimble. The main sheet goes straight to the main sheeting post but the jib sheet goes aft to a turn around (made from 3mmdia stainless rod) first then forwards to the jib sheeting post
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Bog77PC0Ozg/UP15p1jDKAI/AAAAAAAAG8E/qD76bfGeigA/s640/DSCF1585.JPG)
The jib travel is limited by this small (yellow) restrictor. The position for this was determined by gently squeezing a cut down crimp to the line and sliding it along to a position that had the boom out about halfway. By gently pulling the jib out by hand with the restrictor against the sheeting point the sheet was pulled through until the position was found for the crimp to be set. The restrictor was then glued to the crimp with some thick PVA type glue.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-RKSw_IPWa8Q/UP15tp-_G_I/AAAAAAAAG8M/rckUjhiZZ8c/s640/DSCF1586.JPG)
So far this has worked well - for me - it has certainly cured the air spilling from the jib. As you can imagine this is a steep learning curve and how it will be seen as experience is gained remains to be seen.
Since the last post we now have another Focus in the Norwich Club and with others interested it bodes well for the coming season.
Hope this helps you BB and anyone else who may have an interest
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon
Thanks for all the photos and information. The hull is certainly nice looking and the graphics eye catching. Builders from that part of the world like "loud" graphics - Color sells! I wish they'd look at a few pictures of real racing yacht to get a few better ideas. Nonetheless, this latest entry seems like they have improved some things - your modifications seem to be improving the boat making it a viable investment.
Enjoy ! Thank you for your informative posts!
Boomer
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Thanks Ramon
quite a bit to digest there - I'll probably come back with a "have I got this right" drawing shortly :)
Regards
BB
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Hi Ramon.
If I have interpreted your text correctly Hopefully my attached diagram will be correct ?
The only question is the winch spindle - I take it this is a dual reel spindle so that as one winds out,
the other winds in (two "drums" vertically stacked)
That part didn't come across in the images and I have seen some online pics of the inside of a focus
where the winch servo reel is actually enclosed
regards
BB
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Hi Boomer, BB,
Glad to be of help.
The graphics - well unfortunately you don't have a choice as these are already applied and under a layer of gloss clear topcoat. Incidentally I have been very surprised just how durable this clear coat is. On more that one occasion I have ended up with the yacht rubbing against the wall on the opposite side of the pond and unable to pull away. First time this happened that was my instant though - that the paint would abrade but no, no sign of it. I have to say though if it were down to choice most of those graphics wouldn't have been applied ok2
BB Yes you have it correct, that's exactly it. The enclosed drum you refer too is the type fitted as standard but I made a new drum as the original had a very rough surface on the top section which was not used on the original set up. I was concerned that the line might pick up on the rough surface as this is obviously used with this system.
Good luck with yours if you get one , if there's any thing else I can help with just let me know
Won't be sailing tomorrow that's for sure - pond is still frozen but a thaws on the way so maybe next week
Regards - Ramon
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Hi, folks.
Would like to point out, referring to bigbloke's diagram above, that the sheeting line takeoff should be from the left side of the loop tensioner.
The reason is that if there is a strong pull from the sails - when gybeing say, the tensioner might stretch causing the loop going round the aft pulley to go slack and maybe come off the drum.
Regards,
Mike
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Thanks for that input Mike - another step on the learning curve :-)) I am assuming though that this would be if the tensioner was stretchable eg a spring or elastic.
As there is no stretch in the system above - the 'tensioner' is cord and basically solid - would the situation you describe still occur?
Whatever, it's worth noting and getting in the habit of using the 'correct' one and I shall re rig it at some stage.
thanks - Ramon
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As there is no stretch in the system above - the 'tensioner' is cord and basically solid - would the situation you describe still occur?
Hi, Ramon,
I should think that would be OK.
Worth checking the tension from time to time though as most cords will stretch - even Dyneema does a little bit.
A lot of people use a stainless steel spring or a rubber "O" ring.
Good luck
Mike
I've put the text into quotes above
Ken
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Hi Mike and Ramon
Thanks for the feedback . I'll update the diagram for the benefit of those following in my footsteps.
To ensure I understand your point correctly, you are advocating that the sail line comes off
The "left hand" of the two white circles with red borders in my diagram (i.e. what would be the front tensioner)
because if the sails are pulled hard, the force from behind will pull the loop tighter onto the front
pulley rather than slacken the line from behind risking the release of the back pulley.
I think if I were to make this mod I would make the tensioner from some brass rod, pillar drilled on the ends. and tapped
then screw in some tensioning hooks:
loop line--ring-Hook----Threaded shank---[SMALL PIECE OF BRASS STOCK]---threaded shank--Hook-ring--loop line
Regards
BB
who BTW after 39 years of kite making and flying is a black belt at re-braiding snapped lengths of spectra / dyneema :)
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To ensure I understand your point correctly, you are advocating that the sail line comes off
The "left hand" of the two white circles with red borders in my diagram (i.e. what would be the front tensioner)
because if the sails are pulled hard, the force from behind will pull the loop tighter onto the front
pulley rather than slacken the line from behind risking the release of the back pulley.
Hi, All
Yes, certainly if you are using "dynamic" tensioning i.e. spring or rubber.
Mike
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right then!
as I committed to the other day heres the updated diagram :
I cant edit the first one (past the window of editing) so would be grateful if a mod could update the original diagram in my post above
server side please, then delete this one ?
Much to my surprise By chance, I am now a yacht owner again! managed to acquire a cheap blue / black focus in VGC locally :-))
rigging is a bit shocking ! dont like those crimps at all - im going to re-rig with kite bridle line and fishing fittings
regards
BB
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Hi BB, Congrats on acquiring a Focus.
I replaced all the original rigging on our two yachts after the forestay snapped on the first time out. I don't know if it's overkill or not but I used 100lb breaking strain braided fishing line and small fishing tackle crimps.
Should be able to get out this weekend if the winds not too strong - at least the ice has gone!
Regards - Ramon
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Ramon
Could you please advise the make of the fishing line you used
Thanks
dickyp
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Hi Dickyp,
It is Berkely superstrong green braided line -. 011" dia 100 lb breaking strain - it was expensive but got it for less than half price ;)
Ramon
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Ive used 100lb "climax" kite bridle line (I had a few spools of it here from kite making) and bowsies from nylet to re-rig the mast on mine thus far.
the original line and crimps were appaling.
Seems to run very nicely now other than two minor niggles :
on a downwind power run (I forget the yachting term :embarrassed: sails forming a "V" ) in a stiff breeze it tends to push its nose down into the water
whereas otherwise when tacking it tends to ride slightly "nose up"
The jib sail seems to dump wind and flap which I'm still "fiddling" with . Ive moved in the front boom fitting by about 10mm to increase sail
curvature and it seems better but waiting for the next stiff breeze sort of day to go and test it out in anger.
Grateful for any expert feedback on jib sail adjustment and curing the nosedive !
Im genuinely surprised at how much public interest it generates, the most common question is how long the engine runs for as the majority
dont believe that it pops along so nicely in only 5-6mph of wind.
I'm waiting on a BSW bolt to arrive so I can mount the waterproof micro DVR camera case on the rudder access housing , then I can take some "on deck"
video from the local pond. :-))
Regards
BB
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Nose diving means too much sail, too much wind and a need for a fuller bow section
Mast rake can help but even my Mar head does it when the wind is up and I have the wrong sails rigged
Ned
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I wouldn't worry about the nose diving, my IOM does it when the wind is up and I have the wrong sail set on.
Steve
Ps the sailing term you want when running downwind and the jib is on the other side to the main is "goose winging".
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Grateful for any expert feedback on jib sail adjustment and curing the nosedive !
I don't claim to be an expert %%
However from my experience, to reduce pitchpoling (nosediving) on a downwind run, try moving the top of the mast forward 30-50mm. This will reduce the sail power (particularly high up) when running downwind. On a downwind run, you may get better overall speed by sailing a broad reach rather than goosewinging directly downwind and the boat is a bit easier to control. The quickest distance between two points is not always the shortest.....
RE your jib adjustment - increasing the curve in the foot of the jib may also reduce jib power - this can result in excessive weather helm (boat turns into the wind during a gust).
Hope this helps...
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Hi BB and others,
I'm still in the learning stage as you know but the characteristic of 'nose diving' on a run happens with mine too and I notice especially if rudder is applied. Last weeks sailing saw some very smooth conditions with an unusually consistent smooth but low airflow. The week prior and just the opposite - I would say the boat was on it's limits but it did still handle the strong wind, in comparison several IOMs had reduced sail. Regarding this nose diving effect there seemed little difference week to week
One thing that the strong wind appears to have done is stretch the sails slightly on both mine and Sue's boats. To a favourable point that is as this week there were several comments form seasoned members as to how well they were set for 'flat' ripstop. How long they remain like that only time will tell.
From the outset the boat would 'luff up' (one term soon learnt ok2 ) very quickly. After experimenting with the camber on both sails to see if that would have an effect the advice was to move the boom forward by moving the pivot (on the boom) rearwards - I drilled and tapped a series of holes at 10mm spacing rearwards from the original hole and started in the third hole - 20mm back. The effect of that was readily noticeable and the luffing tendency eased considerably. I have felt no need to move it further back though it will still show this tendency if the sails are in and heeling - I'm learning quickly that the sails not only drive the boat but but also have a great influence on its handling %) .
One thing I can say with certainty - I should have took this up years ago :-)
BTW we now have three Focus's - Focii? in the club and the very favourable comments and interest from other members makes it look like that that will probably increase before too long
Regards - Ramon
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i have now fitted a dv-80 micro dvr camera (in a waterproof case) to the rudder cover .
need to file down the bolt head a little more yet. still sitting a bit high.
still tweaking the camera angles and need to sail on one of the bigger local ponds for best effect
[first passes werent too inspiring as the cameras still a bit high and the pond I tested on is a bit short]
also the wind was less than 6mph {:-{
what i might do is extend the camera behind the boat on a 'boom arm' by a few inches, as though its
following rather than directly on deck.
bit stuffed at the moment as the BBmobile is on the ramp with no gearbox so not getting out .
regards
BB
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i have now fitted a dv-80 micro dvr camera (in a waterproof case) to the rudder cover .....
...........what i might do is extend the camera behind the boat on a 'boom arm' by a few inches, as though its
following rather than directly on deck.
My best results with onboard video were with the camera mounted about 50mm above deck, close to the backstay just below boom level. Aim it so it looks out through the mast/shroud gap on one side or the other. Tried a long bracket out the back (about 300-400mm) but it was impossible to get stable enough
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will give that some thought. thanks.
sadly today the rudder shaft broke off flush with the deck [it was only in about 60cm of water at the time so i was able to recover the rudder itself]
it seems the original shaft had been cross drilled making the shaft weaker at the fixing point.
I now need to drill out the old shaft and epoxy in a new one, but theres nowhere round here i can buy metal rod on a sunday so it will have to wait until next week. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
not doing too well on mechanicals this week !
regards
BB
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Hi BB - I know the feeling {:-{
Last week we had the first virtually flat calm day experienced - hardly a movement. Despite this it's a long way to go without trying so on the water it is. Suddenly realised the sails weren't working and lo the sailwinch had gone. Rudder was okay so it was more than likely the servo. Took it out once home and sure enough dead as a dodo. The single loop system seemed to have jammed somewhere as it was very stiff which had probably overloaded the servo however once removed there was no jamming evident but that front pulley had become very stiff on the plastic shaft that it rotates on.
Saw some 'King Max' (as fitted) winches on the bay for 16 quid - more torque and metal geared too so bought two. Very fast dispatch but first thing noticed was that they had no makers sticker on them though there was a clipped piece of card from a King Max box in one of the bags. Second thing noticed was that they were much slower that the one as fitted. Set them up to test them and the first one tried would rotate six turns from fully in to fully out but once brought back in again would slow right down and then just continue to rotate until the stick was pushed forward again where it would do six turns from there and so on and so on. {:-{ {:-{
Emailed the seller who to be fair said they would replace it - which they have done by return - first thing noticed when it arrived today was that this one did have the 'King Max' label on it.
In the meantime having tried the second one which appeared okay it was fixed it in place and the system rerigged having given everything a clean and polish. Just trying it out before fitting the sheets and it too died {:-{ {:-{ {:-{ I have no idea what caused that.
I had a Eurgle winch that was being saved for something else so fitted that which so far appears okay - and much faster too.
I felt the company reponded positively to the fault but at 16 quid you can't expect too much I suppose - Caveat Emptor springs to mind. I'll probably fit a Hitec at some stage as they apppear to be what is most used by others at the club - which is probably what I should have done at the outset %) .
I did google King Max and was surprised to see they offer a fair range of winches - from the low torque version fitted as standard to the Focus up to a 'High End' Metal geared version. I emailed them to see if there was a UK supplier and/or could I purchase direct but so far have received no reply.
No sailing today though - just too bloody cold!
Look forward to seeing your deck level video
Regards - Ramon
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where are you ramon ? our group had six yachts out for our regular saturday morning sail yesterday even though it was trying to snow ! jon
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Ha ha you hardy souls - or should that be brave fools :D We're at Norwich and with a raw Nor' Easter found it much warmer in the workshop though ok2
Regards - Ramon
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A note to anyone who shears off the rudder shaft on a focus [below the servo arm fitting] and plans to remove the original and refit a new m3 brass / stainless shaft....
dont drill it out of the rudder ! even with a proper pillar drill!
my recommendation with 20:20 hindsight would be:
put rudder in a vice with a 3 layer wrap of self amalgam tape to protect it
heat up the broken shaft open end with a blowlamp allowing the heat
to conduct along the shaft down into the rudder.
once the heat is working , pull out the old shaft directly away from the rudder with pliers
the hidden shaft end is knurled prior to epoxying and grips like fury.
youre then left with a nice m3+ a bit hole to epoxy your new shaft into.
regards
BB
[who did try to pillar drill it out! ]
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Hi Ramon
I've just read your thread through from the beginning I became so engrossed that I mist an auction I had been watching for a 2.4 trannie, are well if I wait long enough I guess three more will come along. However I enjoyed the read as it was the first explanation I have seen on the rigging of a winch as I am also a very newby,
Hi BB,
is it possible to copy and dow load your diagram to another file please.
Regards Dave
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Hi Dave
Text is such a flat medium, I'm not sure if I followed your request.
Were you asking to take my [second - as the first one is not optimal] rigging diagram above and use it elsewhere ?
or were you asking If I could convert it into another format and mail it to you ?
No problem personally with the first one (probably a good idea to cite this website as the source) ,
the second I can also sort out in a few days (the original source file is archived on a remote server).
Regards
BB
Who is now on the second repaint of his newly repaired rudder due to a slight oversight (Air bubble) in the epoxy filling department :embarrassed: ...DOH!!
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Hi BB
I was hoping to down load to a paper copy for back reference when I am ready to install into my boat. So it would be very much apprciated if you could E-mail me a copy. as you can see from my thread I'm a long way from being ready to install.
Regards Dave,
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Hi Dave,
im assuming you are browsing the forum on a pc running windows ?
if you put your mouse over most web page images, press the right mouse button , there should be an option like "save image as" or "copy image". this will allow you to save a local copy on your pc for offline review/printing
alternatively press [alt][printscrn] on your pc keyboard, open up paint, then paste in the whole screenshot and use the lasso tool to cut out the bits you want to keep.
regards
BB
[whose rudder is now properly filled and levelled and the final coat of primer will be applied this evening] :-))
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Hi Dave, BB, Nice to see your work Dave - I'm intending to do likewise as soon as the current project comes to an end.
Glad you fixed your rudder BB - couldn't go last week as we were at the model show in Peterborough (plastic modelling) so have not tried out the new winch as yet - Roll on Saturday :-)
Ramon
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:-) :-))
thanks BB
it's easy when you know!
Regards Dave
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One point of note for anyone considering a focus....
But before I go into it I need to caveat it - it could yet prove to be inexperience on my side! ok2
It does tend to suffer from excessive "snap weather helm" (which I am reliably informed is the correct nautical term for
the action of a yacht when hit by a significant gust of wind causing it to turn directly into the source of the wind - and
stay there - until you haul in the sails , straighten the rudder and wait for the wind to define the next choice of direction!)
I have read online that the best way to reduce this is to lean the mast forward somewhat more (2-5cm) when setting up
but I haven't really had time to prove it.
I have now done away with the factory "bathroom chain" that attached the front of the jib boom to the deck and replaced it with
110lb break climax kite bridle line as I was sick of having to re-crimp the damned chain every outing! >:-o
Quite by accident I discovered that shortening this new line by about 5mm results in a dramatic increase in forward speed but the
yacht is more reticent to "goose Wing" on downwind runs, tending to keep both sails on the same side.
Having seen many yachts with them I also fitted a "tracer" of ripstop to the mast crane as a guide to where the wind was
coming from. My largest local sailing venue (Llantarnam boating lake in Cwmbran) is proving to be VERY frustrating for yachting and I'm tending
to switch my venue to the smaller pond at fourteen locks canal centre (1m north of M4 J27) which isn't as big a place to sail but has better wind.
The prevailing winds hereabouts are from the north in winter and the west at other times of the year. Cwmbran lake is situated in a south facing valley
and is flanked on either side by tall trees - particularly dense leylandi trees. These cause a lot of odd gusts and dead patches which you can
see on the surface of the water. a run of more than 100m has thus far proven impossible! hence the tracer to better understand what is going on.
But what is interesting (to me anyway) is that I expected the tracer to spend the majority of its time streaming horizontally out to the side
of the boat as I run across wind...but it doesn't ! It seems to spend the majority of its time vertically upright ????
I assume therefore, (please feel free to correct me) that this is caused by my mainsail, rather than taking the wind and dragging it across the
sail and aft producing forward motion, is pushing a significant component of the wind up the mainsail causing an updraft that the tracer is sitting in ??
If this assumption is correct I assume I have to adjust the sail in some way to change the "section" of the sail to reduce this , producing more forward
motion . Can anyone shed more light on the matter please ? Its certainly not what I expected to find !!
regards
BB
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Hi BB - have just read this and take on board your experiences with interest. We too found the excessive weather helm would catch us out when first sailing our Focus but as previously said this diminished considerably by moving the jib forward about 20mm. I don't think this is ideal however as this then opens up the gap - as opposed to the slot - between.
I haven't been able to get to sail for three weeks now but apparently we now have a fourth Focus in the group and the first thing this latest member did (haven't met him yet) was to reduce the jib height considerably and bring the boom much closer to the deck which apparently had an improvement on this weather helm situation also.
Sounds like you are on that same track shortening the height using line, I certainly agree that the links are probably the worst attribute in the whole package but overall I still think it shows remarkable value for the initial outlay - just needs a degree of tinkering with ;) . I have fitted a balance weight to the jib boom and this has improved the ability to goosewing considerably.
Despite the comments made about the sails mentioned previously we've been thinking that the next step is to fit them out with something more efficient and was discussing about getting this underway with one of the other guys within a couple of weeks. However, your remarks about the telltale tracer are worth persuing. I shall do the same to mine and let you know if I get the same results. It does look as if a fair amount of power could be being wasted but like you I have no experience by which to determine if that is a normal occurance so as you say it would be nice to hear from someone that does.
To keep some kind of uniformity what size have you made your tracer and what point did you attach it to the mast crane?
This Saturday sees my first race :o - now that should be enlightening ok2
Regards - Ramon
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@bigbloke:
Snap weather helm - sailing along with wind on the beam, hit by a gust, the boat heels (more than it was) and turns the bow quickly into the wind and stops... I assume it happens with the wind from either port or starboard side. If it is worse one side to the other, then your rig may not be vertical side to side (aligned to the keel fin).
I believe a prime cause of this (from my experience with other boats, I do not have a Focus) is in the sail setup. The sudden turn is the result of the jib losing its drive quite a bit before the main as the boat heels in the gust. As a result, the mainsail turns the boat...
Suggestions - increase the jib power - flatten the jib by both reducing the curve in the jib foot and also by tightening the jib leech with whatever adjustments are available. If you are running a jib topping lift, I suggest removing it in stronger conditions. Also make sure the jib boom is pretty much parallel to the main boom (not further out than the main boom).
Additionally you could reduce the mainsail power a bit by lengthening the vang (if it is adjustable) to increase the mainsail leech curve.
In any case, it will not take a great deal of change for a marked improvement....
Hope this helps
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Hi again All and thanks for your comments.
Ramon,
The tracer is 1cm high and 20cm long made out of carrington (novare) ripstop nylon
I simply made it 24cm then folded the closed end over twice with cyano glue so the
first cm is stiff and was hole punched to take the tie on.
I fitted it to the mast crane where the backstay fitting attaches using a larkshead knot
Im going to make a second "proper" one as time permits with black and white chevrons
as this will show up better at distance (the current one is black only)
Having contemplated both your input and Mr Penguin's I am going to try 2 things :
1) Im going to fit a bowsie onto the jib line fitting to see if theres an improvement in shortening it slightly.
2) I have used a Quad kite bridling technique (image attached) to allow jib height adjustment
relative to the deck. all ive done is taken a length of 100Lb breaking strain line , folded it in half, then put a series of overhand knots :
at original "chain" height,
my "discovered by accident" height
and half that height again
finally sealing the open ends with a lighter
The loop end is then larkshead knotted to the jib boom and the original "caribena" (the "sticky-out sideways bit" in my attached image) refitted
I'll pop my bicycle GPS onto the Hull (its waterproof) and try to get some speed data across
a few good runs to see what the "real" difference is speed wise
regards
BB
P.S. - realised i've lost my "jib stiffeners" on the jib trailing edge so I picked up some clear plastic sheet used for comb binding and made a few dozen "spares" :)
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.....Quite by accident I discovered that shortening this new line by about 5mm results in a dramatic increase in forward speed but the yacht is more reticent to "goose Wing" on downwind runs, tending to keep both sails on the same side.
Having seen many yachts with them I also fitted a "tracer" of ripstop to the mast crane as a guide to where the wind was
coming from.....
@BigBloke:
On a downwind run, you may find that a broad reach (sailing slightly off downwind with both sails one side) is actually faster than goose-winging directly downwind. With sailing, the quickest distance between two points is not always the shortest.
With your "tracer" or masthead pennant - I find these of great value. However, avoid using something too large/long as it will cause excessive heeling when sailing with the wind from the side. I use a 100mm piece cut from a plastic shopping bag on a 100mm piece of piano wire - light, flexible, cheap...
The "jib stiffeners" you mention are generally called battens - they are used (mostly for the mainsail) to hold the leech of the sail in shape.
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well....ive managed to get out but things went a bit awry.....
I can confirm that lowering the jib boom has improved the forward speed of the boat even in very low wind.
need a breezyer day to assess weather helm improvements.
anyhow half way along / right in the middle of the pond I noticed the boat was sitting a bit low in the water....then the rudder stopped...then the sails wound in without my touching the controls....and then......nothing ....except it started raining like fury. :( nothing I could do except shelter under a large leyandi tree, don my waders and wait for the boat to run aground.
upon recovery I found that the drain plug had fallen out , and the receiver was waterlogged. nothing to do but pack up and come home. I subsequently found the plug on the side of the pond where I started from.
fortunately washing the receiver in distilled water and drying it off has brought it back to life again but wont get another chance to sail until next weekend.
regards
BB
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Been there didn't buy the t shirt 8)
Make sure the servos are dried out.
Give it a couple of days in the airing cupboard
with the hatch open.
Ned
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No airing cupboard in this house Ned , modern open plan living :)
They're currently in the attic on top of the combi boiler where they will stay until probably next friday
I did however, go to buy the T-shirt - but as usual they had nothing in a XXXL :)
regards
BB
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The "jib stiffeners" you mention are generally called battens
Thanks for that Mr P. I suspected they might be (They are for kites as well) though these
days people just tend to fit "stand offs" to sport kite frames. Haven't seen a kite design with a battened sail since
the late 80s / early 90s.
Regards
BB
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Comiserations BB - hope it all dries out ok for you.
I didn't even bother to put my nose out of the shed today the weather was so foul over here.
Our bungs are tied onto the back stay connector - doesn't stop you forgetting to put it in %) but it does prevent you leaving it on the pondside ok2
BTW - Re the sail winch servos - I tied to order a couple of Hitec 785B servos from a regular model mags 'big page' advertiser's web site. After putting in all details it wouldn't go any further. Tried to contact them by phone to make sure the order had/hadn't actually gone through only to get an answer phone telling me they were closed but opening times were Monday to Saturday 9- 5pm but I could always order on line {:-{ This was Thursday at 9.30 O0 Finally got through at around eleven. 'Ah the web site has been causing problems what would I like? Took all my details including my card number first only to then tell me they had none in stock and if I phoned back tomorrow they could tell me when they might come in. I was really impressed with this and asked for my card details to be destroyed. I was assured they would be shredded - time will no doubt tell.
A quick Google found the 'Servo Shop' - Steve Webb Models. Very good price - best I found including the postage, so ordered them Thursday afternoon - arrived this morning. That's what I call Bl--dy Good Service! No connection just very satisfied.
They are much bigger than the standard servo so some surgery is going to be required.
Hopefully next Saturday will see some improvement in the weather :-)
Regards - Ramon
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two more minor failures here sadly
the hatch cover cracked where the locking screw goes through it. i just patched it with a thicker layer of epoxy resin on the inside , sanded it down with some p600 and i'll dab some white onto it at the weekend.
tried to get in a half hour sail on the oxfordshire canal after work tonight before going to the hotel, but the port side mast fixing (deck "handle") snapped mid sail. Managed to get everything back ashore but need to find a substitute fixing until I can source something properly.
managed to meet up with the local club on sunday and ended up coliding with a sub! [sorry Chris!] as far as I know theres no damage to either party. Was quite a "clonk!" when it hit !
Regards
BB
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Hi BB - another week gone and still no sailing - weather even worse this Saturday.
If you mean the small plastic fitting screwed to the deck where the shrouds attach I have a couple of spares as I replaced mine with aluminium ones - PM your address and I'll send them to you.
One item that is really fragile if you have it fitted is the plastic spreader on the mast tensioners - both ours have split and collapsed. I made an ali fitting for one but the other is running without them - can't see any difference at this stage.
Ramon
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thanks for the offer Ramon.
I've lashed up a temporary "loop" of stiff wire to keep me afloat but i plan to do the same as yourself and replace them with all metal ones.
I noticed the starboard side had also cracked but has not yet broken through.
which make of deck eye did you retrofit please ? nylet? or somewhere else ? if the centres are the same it makes sense not to create more holes and i'll order half a dozen! ok2
yes one of the two steel spreader mounts has snapped several times and has been epoxyed back together . one spreader arm actually dropped into the silt of the pond but i got it back with a powerful magnet from a broken car radio antenna base that i keep for such events (larkshead knotted to a multi-thousand foot reel of kite string!)
I have 2 thoughts on replacing the fittings:
option A) to replace the steel rods with tubes which i will thread on the inside, then drill out the mast and pass through a short length of threaded bar (screw shank) which will have a nylock nut either side of the mast , leaving two open threads to screw the tubes onto
option B) to see my friend who has a lathe and comission him to make me two "cups" which will screw to each other through the mast and will be internally threaded to take the steel spreaders (which i will tap to the ID of the cups)
my friend lives about an hour away by car so option A) will minimise my carbon footprint :)
regards
BB
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@BigBloke:
Re your spreaders - not sure what your mast is made from - this may not be relevant if yours is carbon fibre....
Have a look here, about 1/3 down the page (search for "spreaders")
http://www.rcsails.com/rigbuilding.html (http://www.rcsails.com/rigbuilding.html)
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Hi BB, Mr 'P',
The masts are extruded aluminium of flat section Mr P. The spreaders I was referring to were those facing forward at 45 degrees or so for the topmast tension - not sure what they are actually called - not those for the main shrouds. This top spreader is a very basic plastic moulding which really isn't strong enough - both ours broke in transport. Maybe yours BB, didn't have them fitted - Sues boat is running without them.
I dont know if there are any commercial deck plates available that will suit the recess but I made them from a small piece of ali tee bar...
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jwObzbRPdxQ/UVXdBI1lcCI/AAAAAAAAHZI/aAyCEaXDrpg/s640/DSCF2423.JPG)
One of the more negative things with the 'fittings' I've found is that the screws, screwing direct into the un-reinforced fibre glass, can easily strip a thread and soon become very loose. I have solved this (so far that is) by epoxying a strip of hardwood beneath the deckplate areas. It's obviously awkward to get at so I did this by threading a chord through one of the screw holes in the deck pulling it out of the hull with a piece of bent copper wire. This was passed through a hole in the reinforcement then back through a second hole with plenty to spare - these holes predrilled to match those in the hull and suitable for the screws to bite into. Another line was passed through the second hole in the deck, brought out and attached to the first - enabling the first line to be brought back through the second hole. The block was smeared with epoxy then the lines pulled tight - to bring the block up to the inside surface and in place - and then taped to the hull until the epoxy had set
Once the epoxy had cured the line was pulled through and the deckplate screwed into position - very sound - so far ok2 - I'm keeping my fingers crossed the backstay won't need doing which might be a lot more awkward to do.
For the main spreaders I like your idea of a hole through the mast and a small piece of threaded rod to replace the main spreader/shroud attachment - simple, effective and practical. Don't know if you're doing it but this could also retain a wire shroud connection too. I've already made ali attachments but if I hadn't would definitely adopt this idea :-))
Hoping to 'get some in' tomorrow
regards - Ramon
-
...For the main spreaders I like your idea of a hole through the mast and a small piece of threaded rod to replace the main spreader/shroud attachment - simple, effective and practical. .....
regards - Ramon
@Ramon - no need for the rod to be threaded - the shroud tension holds the tubes on the wire. Just push the wire through the mast and pop the other side on as you rig the boat pondside.... works for me... The only real tension on the spreaders is compression in any case...
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although a different yacht , my old kyosho seawind had speaders which were held onto the mast by two small self tapping screws , the actual spreader was a section of flat alloy bent at 90 degrees where it meets the mast ( one each side ) the mast is a groovy one so an oval profile . the mast and sails are now fitted to my brother in laws mrp australia 2 , the hull is long gone ! jon
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@Ramon - no need for the rod to be threaded
agreed....but three times I have almost lost the spreader bar now and its getting tiresome. it almost always pops transporting between pond and stand. the threaded bar idea was born from frustration rather than mechanical need.
even the manual says to glue the wretched things in ! ;)
no sailing this weekend due to family commitments sadly but maybe an extra hour in the week now the clocks have gone forward.
regards
BB
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snuck out late on yesterday for a crafty hours sail on the pond "across town". Well... I've got to
make the most of the extra hour!
Although light on arrival the wind soon started to gust up significantly and true to
form the damned port spreader dropped off ...this time in the middle of the pond
so that's it !! <*< war is declared on the main spreader!
last night I ordered the brass tube
tonight the mast gets drilled and the stainless spreader mounting bar gets fitted
already dug out the tap and die set .
I will however need to make some additional small plates for the lower stays to attach to
it did serve to confirm however, that lowering the Jib-boom-to-deck distance has improved,
but not cured the snap weather helm!
Meanwhile the temporary-replacement-for-the-broken-deck-eye has been replaced
with much stronger fishing swivel and a loop of bridle line . until I can order in the new ones
at least I have the restoration boat to work on now whilst not sailing :)
Regards
BB
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PS Also got some wood to make a decent solid fold up stand - the factory one is going !
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@Bigbloke:
It strikes me that there must be something going on with these spreaders.... By rights, the spreaders should always be under tension so there should be NO WAY they can "pop out"
I saw on another forum that the rigging is considered to be very poor on the Focus. If it is like many of the other budget boats (eg Monsoon, Hurricane), the rigging will be very stretchy, causing all sorts of grief.
The usual remedy is complete replacement of the standing rigging with 100lb or better Spectra or Dyneema (expensive in fishing shops but available cheap on eBay) like here: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/top-class-DYNEEMA-braided-BRAID-Spectra-braid-orange-Fishing-Line-6lb-100lb-/380502856534?pt=AU_Fishing_Clothing&var=&hash=item5897bcd356 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/top-class-DYNEEMA-braided-BRAID-Spectra-braid-orange-Fishing-Line-6lb-100lb-/380502856534?pt=AU_Fishing_Clothing&var=&hash=item5897bcd356) for under $10 - Available in lots of colours. I have bought this item from this particular supplier no problem.
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Hi BB, Mr 'P' et al,
Mr 'P'
The spreaders supplied are no more than a steel rod that plugs loosely into a plastic housing held only by the shroud tension which sits in a shallow groove at the outer end.
Our two boats have had all the rigging replaced by 100lb Dyneema but this will still occasionally slip that groove during sailing. If it does with the housing as supplied you end up with BBs situation. As said before I made new shroud plates and threaded the spreaders to screw in but Malcolm our other Focus owner replaced his spreaders with ally tubing and captures that onto the shrouds with a bent piece of wire that plugs deeply into the tube. If they do come out the spreader just slips down the shroud.
I found a very nice small and short swivel attached to a small LED torch for £1. 25 at a local store which has now been transferred to the jib - remains to be seen how it will last but first appearances give the impression it's stong enough
After a five week gap finally got on the water on Saturday - It was like starting all over again - well out of touch {:-{
then the transmitter died so I spent the day watching Sue. Not sure what was wrong with the tranny, the LED flashed alot before finally going out. Changed batts but nothing. Brought it home, recycled everything and it would appear that the LED has a faulty connection as testing the current today and poking the probes on it began to work again. Couldn't re-solder it as my iron is way too big - know a man who can though ;)
Regards - Ramon
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Yes well aware of spectra and dynema and the joys of braiding lengths of it back together :}
I have quite a few hundred metres of both here in fact ! mostly bought in the nineties / naughties
from 35 Lb for indoor flying / zero wind flying of icarex ultralights through to 500Lb breaking strain
for my big Parafoils (dual and quad line kites for buggying) I've been a kite maker and flyer for around
40 years - it used to be cheaper than RC O0 )
because of the difficulties (by design) in knotting either line type I don't consider it really the most effective
for mast rigging, and hence I use 130 Lb break "climax" bridle line :
http://www.climaxlines.co.uk/ (http://www.climaxlines.co.uk/)
which can be both knotted and heat sealed .
it also has the advantage that if you want to mark off a preset position you can "pick" the white inner through the
black outer, "flash" it with a lighter leaving a white marker, with no appreciable loss in overall strength.
I agree though the rigging supplied with the yacht was VERY inferior, but the brass rod arrived in the post today
so by bedtime tomorrow I will have rock solid, nylocked and threaded spreaders that will resist falling off by design
:)
the mast being "pill-shaped" in cross section does have a tendancy to bow and with the aluminium crane can actually be
a bit top heavy
Dont know if thats what contributes, but its history now ! :)
regards
BB
who is measuring up for a new "suit" of sails or three - dont like the printed artwork on the stock sail
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Right! halfway there :-))
Quick diagram of the new main spreader arrangement (attachment)
basically the shank of a long stainless bolt was passed through the mast section and nylock nutted to the main mast
two lengths of brass tube were cut and internally threaded so that they would fit onto the steel bolt. there are lovely and rigid :-))
I found two other cheese head slotted stainless screws with the same diameter head as the brass bar
I took two 6mm lengths of brass bar 1mm less than the OD of the main brass tubes , slid the first one over the shank of the "swivel screw" , then internally tapped the
second one to the thread of the "swivel screw.
finally I pushed in the assembly and carefully applied cyano glue the OD of the piece of brass bar nearest the swivel screw head.
This provided a nice neat "slot" for the rigging to slip into but if I need to tilt the mast to reduce weather helm etc then the angle of the "slot" is always optimal to the
rigging and cannot pop out of the end of the tube.
The new sails are on hold as the white ripstop I have here wasn't of good enough standard to use . more ordered
regards
BB
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Well the main sewing is done on the new "A" suit
final rigging after getting the fittings after work today
I have to say that 30+ years of kiting and kite-making weren't as much help
as I had though they should be and the future "b" and "c" rigs will be made
more like the jib and applique any detail on !
But on the plus side Ive learnt a heck of a lot ! and will probably make a new A suit
after the B and C
Just don't look too closely :)
regards
BB
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Nice looking sails!!!!
I avoid sewing by using double sided tape - works great, quick and easy, no puckering when you get the tension wrong. It is very very sticky, no chance of it coming apart...
I use this:
https://www.radioyachtsuppliesaustralia.com/products/Double-sided-self-adhesive-tape-6mm-%28sail-seams%29.html (https://www.radioyachtsuppliesaustralia.com/products/Double-sided-self-adhesive-tape-6mm-%28sail-seams%29.html)
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Using the IOM chart kindly Supplied by MrPenguin (thanks again) in another thread, I calculated
the vertical and horizontal scaling ratios between the IOM A, B and C Rig.
I then took extensive measurements off my factory sails, input them into excel ,
and calculated the corresponding dimensions for scaled "B" and "C" rigs for the
Focus.
I decided to make the "C" rig first as it has been absolutely h-o-w-l-i-n-g here for
quite a few days, and I had a few "offcuts" that I wanted to use up .
Still a work in progress but the C rig is going to look soooo tiny against the A rig mast :)
{The picture below is of the factory "A" mainsail and my "C" mainsail - no its not the jib! :) }
Regards
BB
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Yes the C rig looks small but that would be correct.
I made a B rig for a similar boat using the same information and that looked odd with a foot of mast above the sail, but it was great in a blow - not so good in light / changeable conditions of course. I managed to source another mast and cut some off it, looked better and was perhaps a bit better as there was less weight up high.
The other trick is to make the sail sets easy to change. These luff rings from Tower Hobbies are great for the mainsail
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAPKT&P=7 (http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAPKT&P=7)
For the jib I have a separate boom for each sail set - easier to swap the jib with boom attached I found.
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Hi BB - you've made a nice job of those :-)) . We are on the cusp of doing likewise but I have my head down into another non related project at the moment which needs to be finished first before I can give this some focussed (oops !) attention.
Keep us posted how the differing sets work out - I noticed this week last just how much snap weather helm this boat suffers from - as the mast is pretty much fixed in position from what I read I think the only way to deal with that will be to make the mainsail slightly less wide or the jib slightly fuller. Any thoughts on that Mr P?
We enjoyed our first race day, we came where you would expect but we did enjoy ourselves :-)
Regards - Ramon
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I noticed this week last just how much snap weather helm this boat suffers from - as the mast is pretty much fixed in position from what I read I think the only way to deal with that will be to make the mainsail slightly less wide or the jib slightly fuller. Any thoughts on that Mr P?
Yes its interesting in that the chart from Mr Penguin suggested that for IOM the maximum
permissible foot width for the A suit mainsail was at the time (if memory serves) 360mm ?
I noticed that the focus mainsail is noteably wider for the same length of hull - my data below reflects the dimension differences
key to table:
top of mainsail (width = near to zero )
|
|___ 3/4 height width
|
|____ 1/2 height width
|
|______ 1/4 height width
|
|__________ base width
format of data = <dimension (from above diagram)> <IOM typical values (2003) > <focus values (2013)>
base width : 350-360 410
1/4 height width: 305-315 355
1/2 height width 235-245 275
3/4 height width 135-145 182
I have yet to try the new "A suit" Sunday will be my only opportunity probably
Hopefully I will have the "C" suit finished by then just in case . Were pounded by the atlantic winds here and I dont
think the A suit will like 20mph ++ :)
regards
BB
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Thanks for that BB. That would seem to confirm the thinking is possibly some way in the right direction. I was looking at the Thetis design on the Nylet site the other night and could not but notice how proportionately different the sails are to one another on the Focus to those of the Thetis
Weather looks good here for tomorrow - fun sail only for the Focus this week. Racing for the first time was not as stressful as anticipated though and we both enjoyed it. 'Should have done this years ago' %)
It would appear we now have five Focus in the club but so far have only seen three on the water.
Ramon
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based upon the Chart from Mr P, and assuming I have my formulas right:
A suit to B suit height scaling factor = 0.7375
A suit to C height scaling factor = 0.55
A suit to B suit width scaling factor = 0.9714
A suit to C suit width scaling factor = 0.8889
regards
BB
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...- I noticed this week last just how much snap weather helm this boat suffers from - as the mast is pretty much fixed in position from what I read I think the only way to deal with that will be to make the mainsail slightly less wide or the jib slightly fuller. Any thoughts on that Mr P?
Snap weather helm is always a bit of a challenge, particularly when you have few adjustments available to you. It is caused by the sails stalling - however the jib stalls first, leaving just the mainsail driving - this turns the boat into the wind
A few suggestions:
1) Sheeting angles - typical rule of thumb setup for the booms is to haul the sheets right in, then set the booms so the main boom points at the transom corner and the jib boom points at the shrouds. I have found that having the jib boom a bit closer (eg pointing halfway out to the shrouds) will reduce weather helm (keeps the stall points closer together)
2) Mast position - while the mast foot is fixed, you can still move the top of it - moving the top of the mast forward 20 or 30 mm helps reduce pitchpoling (submarining) when running downwind and would also reduce weather helm.
3) Sail foot tension - get this about the same for both sails - there should be about 20mm of curve in the sail foot. Flatten the sail more in strong weather, curve it more in light winds
4) Jib leach tension - if using a topping lift ease it off or remove it in strong weather, also increase jib halyard tension to keep the sail reasonably flat..
There is a good IOM sail tuning video here that may be of value. You may not have all these adjustments available directly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5JaeKpDvMl8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5JaeKpDvMl8)
Another excellent one on sail tuning a Micro magic is here. While smaller, the principles are just the same:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mwk8DTptrwY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mwk8DTptrwY)
Hope this helps
-
word to the wise .... DON'T try my direct scaling approach for the Jib sail ! {:-{ {:-{ {:-{
It just doesn't work >>:-(
There's not enough "pull" on the back of the Jib to keep the boom elevated properly
I'm going to pick up some card from "The Range" later and re-model it based upon the revised angles Ive come up with
by "wire-framing" the jib boom "in situ"
mainsail doesnt seem too bad though
regards
BB
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Good news and bad news today....
Delighted to report that the new "A" sails seem, by pure fluke not engineering design, %% considerably better.
The 60 degree angled stripes (french seamed) naturally stiffened the sail so that it "hangs" with a natural curve
and produces different "twists" in the lower and upper parts of the mainsail as a result.
At the same time it did mean that when I tried to push the luff into the mast slot the first time it wouldn't go :embarrassed:
so I needed to add a "luff pocket" (folded "v" of fabric ) to the leading edge. I was slightly concerned that the extra weight
would slow things down more but no such issue it seems to be flying!
However...The blasted sail servo wound out ...and promptly didn't wind in again >>:-(
I ended up sailing to day by manually winding the winch in 2/3 of the way and just sailing using the rudder.
Ramon, how did you manage to get the sail servo out ? the back screws are practically hidden by the winch drum.
I take it the drum comes off first then the servo ?
anyway time to follow your earlier post and visit the servo shop I think.
Heres a pic of the focus on its maiden voyage with the new A Suit
Regards
BB
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Hi BB, Mr P,
I was out most of yesterday and watched the box last night %)
Firsts BB good to hear you are pleased with your sails - we are still debating what to do but think before we have any made will do tghe same as yourself.
Sorry to hear your winch has gone - as you know mine gave in quite quickly but Sue's is still going strong. I now have a Eurgle fitted but it ticks all the time -built in morse code distress signal. Yes you need to take the drum off first to get at those screws.
I found the service and price at the Servo shop extremely good - just be aware that the Hitec servo is considerably bigger than the normal size and that you will have to modify the servo tray accordingly - I haven't given this any thought at the moment - but it shouldn't be too difficult apart from the access problem.
Thanks for the suggestions Mr P. I don't want to appear dismmissive but I have tried all you suggest to combat this (SWH) characteristic but your comment on the sails particularly the jib stalling speaks volumes.
I have experimented with sheeting angles but this does not seem to have a great effect nor does raking the mast forward make any significant difference to it either.
We had quite calm conditions yesterday with the odd small turbulence, even under these conditions the boat is trying to veer and needs constant rudder input. Malcom one of the other Focus owners has increased the area of his rudder by 1/4" on the LE and 1/2" on the TE, nothing on the length. It is also approximately twice the weight but has apparently not had a detrimental effect on the trim. He didn't have it out yesterday but said he'd tried it during the week under windier conditions and this had improved this tendency considerably. The more I look at other boats - particularly the one metres and MH'ds however the more I feel drawn to the fact that the sails are out of 'balance' (?) - far too much mainsail to jib area.
It'll be a week or two yet before I can give this total attention and do as BB, making new sails to see if this theory stands up but until then thanks for the help Mr P and hope you get your winched fixed asap BB
Regards - Ramon
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found some 6v, 55g heavier rated (9 kilo) 4 turn winch servos for about 15 notes each
allegedly they're the same footprint as the king Max SW4805-4PA fitted to my focus
ordered a pair (component-shop.co.uk who I've had excellent service from over the years)
so will pass on their performance when they arrive.
Regards
BB
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Not sure if these are the same winch - smaller than the standard sail servo - I have used them a couple of times for projects (boats up to 700 mm), seem to be Ok.
They come in 4 and 6 turn variations, would suggest 4 turns is probably enough for this application.... However I am doubtful that these are big/strong enough for a 1 metre boat in stronger conditions
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__20854__SW4805_4PA_Sailwinch_Servo_6_13kg_45g_0_70.html (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__20854__SW4805_4PA_Sailwinch_Servo_6_13kg_45g_0_70.html)
This may be too big and is 6 turns:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18742__Vigor_VSD_11AYMB_MG_HV_Extra_Large_360_Degree_Winch_Servo_0_75sec_50kg_150g.html (http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18742__Vigor_VSD_11AYMB_MG_HV_Extra_Large_360_Degree_Winch_Servo_0_75sec_50kg_150g.html)
For my one metre boats I am using EXI B1226 - there are lots of equivalents about
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the 4805-4pa is the factory standard servo on my focus MrPenguin
And I would agree it seemingly doesnt have the raw "grunt" as both
myself and Ramon have found.
Ive gone for the 5513-4ma, which is metal geared and allegedly can haul
in twice the sail load.
regards
BB
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Hi BB,
That was about the same price as I paid for my replacements which proved to be very poor quality - they didn't come from the Component Shop though. They were sold as metal geared King Max 5513s but had no King Max labels on them - though as said previously the replacement did. I felt the original winch did a reasonable job but as Mr P points out they are not up to the task when the load gets a bit heavy.
My thinking was the same as yours - metal gears, more torque - should be an improvement, but I don't think mine were true KM servos. I'll look forward to hearing how yours turn out.
Regards - Ramon
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Ive found the Kingmax website and this servo:
http://a20068124.oinsite.yh.mynet.cn/_d274975026.htm
is what King max themselves declare suitable for an IOM scaled boat
I might see if I can find one and keep the 5513's for a pond yacht I'm currently renovating / converting.
being only 30" long it should meet that demand.
[edit] googled around - no-one seems to stock this one [/edit]
regards
BB
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As can be seen below - my revised approach to a "C" suit (High wind) is going to be quite a bit different
to my first attempt ;)
I'm going to knock up some plain white prototypes (for speed) , test them, then make coloured new ones of the
variant I'm most happy with.
fortunately I have a job lot of white ripstop that I can use for testing
Murphy's Law dictates that as soon as I start sewing though there will be no gales for weeks :)
regards
BB
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@bigbloke:
You may find this site of value for sailmaking:
http://www.stirling.saradioyachting.org.au/sailmaking.htm (http://www.stirling.saradioyachting.org.au/sailmaking.htm)
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wow ! not half MrPenguin !! Many thanks indeed - VERY interesting
Just got home from a couple of days up country with work . The new servo..well servos.. have arrived .
It took a bit of working out to get them back on and winding to the right place but once I worked out that
A) I had got the drum on at the wrong angle and B) it was winding backwards it was no problem.
These servos are indeed metal geared , much heavier than the factory stock ones and seem to wind tighter.
The drum also is directly compatible with the one fitted to the focus so no undoing of knots etc
For Ramon's information they came in King Max cardboard boxes and were kingmax labelled (see pic below)
regards
BB
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Hi BB - Good to hear you got sorted.
Just taken a look at the Component Shop - wished I'd have known about that before trying the supplier on E bay. I'm convinced the first two were copies of some kind - very poor as said but the replacement appears to be the same as what you have. Given the original is/was a bit marginal for the task in hand hopefully these metal geared slightly higher torque will prove adequate. I think I'll order one at that price to see - after all Sues one is probably going to give up the ghost before too long %)
I'd like to get hold of a couple of the higher torque winches your link referred to - I tried emailing the King Max sales again but it came back as unavailable. Maybe the Component Shop can get them? - I'll ask.
Regards for now - Ramon
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just took the new "A sails" out in a real howler (gusting 19mph !)
they rattled like crazy, weather-helmed as you might expect but pitchpolling is less and
straight line performance is way faster
only niggle was it appears to have overpowered the rudder servo connecting rod ! (sailing
to the left when it came out of the pond) %)
ready to make the "C suit" now !
regards
BB
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seems my rudder repair wasn't strong enough for the bashing it took the other day. new shaft fitted, twice as deep into the fin with two sections crimped to prevent the shaft from rotating in-situ. now to refill and respray.
imminent redundancy and death of my car may curtail my activities for a while so not in a rush to fix it.
regards
BB
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it seems that at the same time as breaking my rudder shaft I broke the fitting where the rudder shaft connects to the con-rod that routes to the servo. <:(
looking for an impromptu source for a fix, i happened upon a terminal block strip (3 x holes) from a ceiling rose (electric light fitting) which amazingly seems to have fitted the bill perfectly!
regards
BB
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i tend to make rudder stocks which have an angle bent onto the lower end of the stock , or have a section of flat bar soldered onto the stock , to give the blade something to hold onto . all of my yachts get fitted with solid stainless steel linkages from the tiller to servo with adjustable keepers at each end of the rod . tried to use some plastic keepers earlier in the week on an old r36 ive restored , they survived just ten mins in the lake before they both failed ! hope you can get mobile soon , i know how difficult it can be getting a yacht to the lake without a car . jon
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my redundancy has been deferred to 31st of December and a new car has been sorted, but unfortunately the mast base of my focus has snapped in two.
Finding new work for the new year has kept me off the water
(that and apparently needing permission from severn-trent water to sail my yacht ... don't get me started!! >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( )
Whilst the part is only cheap no-one has stock so Ive moaned at ripmax via facebook and am now awaiting
via one of their resellers 3 replacement parts ('cause its bound to break again!)
I'll update when i find out how long its going to be
regards
BB
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hi all,
it seems that it will probably be a good few weeks (i suspect as much as 3 months?) for the parts to arrive
on the "slow boat from china".
However, i have been in touch with a very helpful chap called Alan at Ripmax ( the importer) who found a broken boat "somewhere", whipped off the necessary part and sent it on to me FoC to keep me going until the 3 spares arrive :)
fitted the piece on the weekend and discovered that the elastic band that tensions the winch had failed so more running repairs needed - maybe next weekend? ;-)
regards
BB
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the joy of improvising , re the elastic band , many yachts are tensioned by using hat elastic which is available from good fabric shops in most towns / cities ( try fabric land )
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do you still have this as i have joysway focus mk1 which i got cheap but it didnt come with instructions with it was wounding if i could get a copy off you
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This site may be of interest if you have not already found it.
http://www.shipshaperc.com/index.php/forum/joysway-focus
Ned
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Hi does anyone know where I can purchase a main mast mount, mine broke <:( I have tried all the on line stores in The UK and also Ripmax who import the spares but they say its a discontinued part <:(
I cant just throw the yacht in the skip! what to do?