Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Bob K on January 11, 2013, 10:19:14 am
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Some build kits whilst others say they only scratch build, but what exactly is scratch built?
Airfix are kits, even if the builder has done considerable conversion and extra detailing, plus successfully converted the model for radio controlled sailing. A lot or original work involved.
They are incredible models of ships such as HMS Victory that could take an expert modeller up to two years to complete, but this would probably also be defined as a kit as the parts are pre-marked and come with an instruction manual.
Is "scratch built" solely defined as having bought just raw materials and worked to plans and photos? Obviously they have not made the batteries motors Rx and probably many other parts used, and may even have bought some ready-made fittings and crew figures.
If one has used a fibre glass hull and made the rest from raw materials and plans this would probably still not count as scratch built ?
How do you properly define "scratch built" ?
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I'd define "scratchbuilt" as building the hull and superstructure and adding bought fittings such as weapons, deck furniture, etc. Props and rudders don't count.
Using a GRP hull makes it semi scratchbuilt.
Modifying a bought boat I'd call "kit bashing"
But that's just me!
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This is a subject which has been the subject of heated debate in the past on here although I can't be bothered to look for it now!
The term 'scratchbuilding' is generally held to mean constructing from generic or raw materials which were not specifically intended for the job in hand as opposed to purchasing items which are.
Thus you can have a scratchbuilt hull (plank on frame), scratchbuilt superstructure (ply or styrene etc.), scratchbuilt fittings (moulding your own cowl vents) and scratchbuilt running gear (make your own shafts, tubes & rudders and cast your own propellers). If it is a steam powered model then you could even have a scratch built engine but electric motors and of course batteries are not regarded as a practical proposition for obvious reasons.
So any given model may or may not incorporate elements of scratchbuilding in its construction. Apart from the personal satisfaction of making your own stuff it is only an issue if you enter the model into a competition when the judges will need to know how much of it you have made and how much you have bought.
Simples....
Colin
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http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6182.msg61008#msg61008 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6182.msg61008#msg61008)
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128 letters in 2008. That took some reading. :} :} :}
ken
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Ooops. Sorry. Did not realise this might have been a contentious issue. I asked out of personal interest only as it was a frequently heard model making term.
Thank you Gentlemen.
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Some of the rivet counters of the modelling world will even argue that you must draw up your own plans. :o
For fibreglass. If you mould your own hull, and several of our members have done, this counts as scratch building.
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Bob, I don't think it's a contentious issue really. If anyone gets het up about this then they are probably a little too tightly wound.
"To each his own" and as long as you're enjoying the activity who really cares if it's scratched, bashed or thrown on the water right out of the box.
In some of the other modelling fields, competition rules state that only a certain percentage of a model can be "bought" to still qualify as a scratchbuild. The real answer would be "get a life" As long as the model gives it's owner the satisfaction of a job well done who cares.
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I wonder why they use the word 'Scratch'
Anyone have opinions on this.
Ken
ps Glad you brought it up Bob. An excellent subject.
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I asked the judges at Blackpool this past year when I entred my 3 lifeboats into the comp as although I had designed them some years ago I was using a quantitiy of Dave Metcalf owned fittings from the old Lifeboats I had designed.
They told me that it is considered a scratch built if a commercial hull is used, and/or no more than (if I remember) 20% of the fittings/fixtures are bought comercially and used on the model.
That does NOT include propellors, chain or prop shafts.
so there you go.....and they were using MPBA rules I believe, to judge the models
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ps Glad you brought it up Bob. An excellent subject.
Thank you Ken. Maybe there is no true definition for "scratch built", apart from perhaps the expert opinions of competition judges who evaluate what proportion of parts in a build are truly from unrelated raw materials. Otherwise even one bought bollard could technically invalidate it, or a project started by one person and finished by another.
Interesting !
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I wonder why they use the word 'Scratch'
Anyone have opinions on this.
The only sources I found both quote the same thing.
This use of scratch derives from a line or mark drawn or scratched into the ground to indicate a boundary or starting-point in sports, especially cricket and boxing. That meaning of scratch goes back to the late 18th century. From there it came to apply specifically to the starting point, in a handicap, of a competitor who received no odds: "Mr. Tom Sabin, of the Coventry Bicycle Club, has won, during last week, three races from scratch." (Bicycle Journal, August 18, 1878).
It was later applied figuratively with the meaning "from nothing", and it was used thus by James Joyce in Ulysses (1922): "A poor foreign immigrant who started scratch as a stowaway and is now trying to turn an honest penny." Thereafter it was taking up in cooking once boxed mixes and prepared foods became widely available. Today it is a badge of honor to be able to say one made a culinary delight from scratch.
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Different competitions have their own rules so there is no definitive meaning of a 'scratchbuilt' model. If you enter a competition you are bound by the rules of that competition and the interpretations of the judges.
Back in the 1970s there was more of a consensus as to what constituted a scratch built model but in those days you simply did not have the commercial offerings that we now take for granted. Anyway, unless you are entering a competition it doesn't matter how much of the model is built and how much is bought as long as you are happy yourself. Certainly not worth arguing about!
Colin
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Anyway, unless you are entering a competition it doesn't matter how much of the model is built and how much is bought as long as you are happy yourself. Certainly not worth arguing about!
Colin
totally agree Colin.
neil.
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Scratch building ( as far as I was informed ) was starting with a plan as the basis and constructing everything else or that's what the ME exhibitions (past tense) seemed to advocate with in some cases, downgrades for the use of some "Incorrect" materials.
At the end of the day, it's whatever floats yer boat. Build as museum quality and risk sailing and getting attacked by a rampant Swan/Duck or child? or to enjoy flobbing about on yer pond.
Scratch builder supreme? at this point Krishna.
Regards Ian.
Have to qualify my last sentence by saying "using the resources available to him" rather than being able to pick anything from 'tinternet.
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No you are all wrong :} All scratch built means is you scratch your head a lot when building , thinking how in the world am I going to do that :-)) :-))
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On another vein, luv this "Restoration" :-
http://www.woodyboater.com/classic-boats/the-raising-and-restoration-of-wa-chee-we-an-amazing-1923-ditchburn-class-racer/ (http://www.woodyboater.com/classic-boats/the-raising-and-restoration-of-wa-chee-we-an-amazing-1923-ditchburn-class-racer/)
Regards Ian
Looks a bit like a scratch build to me.
Re, the thirty year old Yard broom.
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Some of the rivet counters of the modelling world will even argue that you must draw up your own plans. :o
... and your own full scale original vessel?!?!!! %)
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Scratch building ( as far as I was informed ) was starting with a plan as the basis and constructing everything else or that's what the ME exhibitions (past tense) seemed to advocate with in some cases, downgrades for the use of some "Incorrect" materials.
At the end of the day, it's whatever floats yer boat. Build as museum quality and risk sailing and getting attacked by a rampant Swan/Duck or child? or to enjoy flobbing about on yer pond.
Scratch builder supreme? at this point Krishna.
Regards Ian.
Have to qualify my last sentence by saying "using the resources available to him" rather than being able to pick anything from 'tinternet.
I agree about Krishna, His models may not win the Super Accurate Cup but he gets some fun out of them.
Actually I was thinking of outsourcing my builds to him, should be done in a week or two. :-)) :-)) :-))
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I agree about Krishna, His models may not win the Super Accurate Cup but he gets some fun out of them.
Actually I was thinking of outsourcing my builds to him, should be done in a week or two. :-)) :-)) :-))
A week or two, why is he on a go slow :}
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A week or two, why is he on a go slow :}
Well, he does have 30 boats of his own to build too!
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this is a good subject you chose Bob.
and to quote a fellow "Colin" and "Niel" there no need to worry unless your entering Comps....
i have the rule book published by the Naviga (World Organisation) its close on 45, A5 pages from those about 10 of them covers a class that most would call Scratch built, most important parts extracted, the MPBA should have the rule book as well..
1. true-to-original scale model ships built according to technical documentation without using commercially produced parts.
2. The following tolerances are allowed in the F2, F4 and F-DS classes:
Length of the model up to:
500 mm 1000 mm 2000 mm 2500 mm longer
+/- 3 mm +/- 5 mm +/- 8 mm +/- 10 mm +/- 12 mm
Width of the model up to:
50 mm 150 mm 300 mm 600 mm wider
+/- 2 mm +/- 2 mm +/- 4 mm +/- 5 mm +/- 6.5 mm
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Gosh! I thought this hoary old subject had been put to bed ages ago.
As far as I recall it’s always been a subject that ends up in acrimony.
I consider myself to be a scratch builder. I’ve always built my own GRP hulls, and in the “early days” made all my own bits’n’pieces. Once I proved to myself that I could make a bit, I had/have no qualms about buying the equivalent commercial item. I mean, paying 25p for an funnel stay eyebolt knocks spots off spending about half an hour making one. The same goes for things like the triple sheave lifeboat fall blocks.
But again, it all depends on the scale of your model, and many items are particular to that individual model. I couldn’t give a brass farthing about “kit” or “scratch” or anything in-between…..as long as the builder has put his best efforts into it. What does annoy me are those “builders” or buyers who just clag bits together as quickly as possible and really haven’t a clue or any real interest in the actual model. That sort of attitude, to my way of thinking, just cheapens the work done by those who do care. BY.
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Well said Bryan
:-))
vnkiwi
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Or take a look at Krishna's builds - they are pretty much what I would call scratch built.
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On the other side of the big pond ,We over here judge R/C models in Scratch, Semi Scratch,Semi Kit , Kit ,Stand off, Stand away and don't look at me.
Most of the clubs here say if you want to win something you have to run in the water.
The Square rigged vessels we put in there own class.
But we also judge by vessel type and category.
Best of show and Judges Choice or Sponsor's Pick.
The person I am still trying to copy was Don Ferguson ( Bandera, Model boats mag. 1988 May)
Don left us in 1998 RIP.
Gary
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Of course there are few of us who (are even more insane) and use only original shipyard plans and spend huge amount of time looking for photos, drawings,... and only then copletely mess things up {-)
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Of course there are few of us who (are even more insane) and use only original shipyard plans and spend huge amount of time looking for photos, drawings,... and only then copletely mess things up {-)
I tend to use the original ship-builders plans when possible. But I also had access to the plans of the ships I was sailing in/on.
The main thing about "scratch" building is that you will, in all probability, be creating a completely unique model. Hence one "unique" to every 100 clone kits. BY.
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I wonder why they use the word 'Scratch'
Anyone have opinions on this.
Ken
PS Glad you brought it up Bob. An excellent subject.
OK, How about this.
Its not used much these days, but commonsense, Simply put, to start from 'scratch' is to start from the beginning.
Therefore, 'scratch' building a model, eg a boat, is starting from the beginning, the plan/s and building the model to eventual completion.
Items 'bought', hulls, fittings,etc,etc, are not scratch built, they are commercially sourced.
It the follows you can then have degrees of 'scratch' built.
Such as fully, 100% built by the model maker
Partial (pick a number), 50%, 25% built by the model maker.
Not scratch built, that is a kit, bought with all items supplied and assembled/put together by the model maker.
Also any items made/added to a kit is 'kit bashing' namely altering the kit either to improve it or alter it to represent a variant of the model %) %) %)
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That makes the most sense. List what you have built from materials, and list what has been purchased.
Very difficult to police this sort of thing. You can have items scratchbuilt by third parties, and claim it as your own work. Then there is 3D printing and CNC machining- are these items scrathbuilt becuase you have drawn them out on a computer? It's still a skill, albeit different from hand crafting.
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I agree with the majority. The parts I make myself from say, 'whiltling wood' and 'shaping plastic', gives me more pleasure than glueing on a manufactured part.
I cannot say that my boats are totally Scratch built but I do like to add my own hand made version of something. It's the fun of our hobby and the pleasure we get from achieving it that matters.
Cheers
Ken
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Every tug that I make, drawings and pictures of the real tug back everything up at shows.
In the kits that I produce all 21 of them and drawings of the old stuff that I have measured up and made lines for , I photograph every tug .
It's like you walked around on the deck with a camera going click every 2 meters.
I have had some members of the club get frustrated by not winning anything so at Public Judged events I don't bring anything.
Even then their are some fellows that still complain about me not having anything there.
Look at Model boats mag. April 08, May 06 Cover shot.
In the phrase scratch , Yes make Everything ,In the full respect to scale reproduction in miniature.
The Vessel should look like the crew had just left her at the dock.
There is the option of weathering or Bristol new.
Gary
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Scratch and Scale are not related. You can scratch build an entirely fictional boat (or train, plane, car, tank, ... )
Does either matter? It's up to the individual in the comfort of their own home, but if you are displaying or competing then it does matter. I would suppose that if you lied about the level of build and won a prize, then if discovered you would be guilty of fraud.
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Yes, true the 2 are not related .
You can make a shoe box float and run and call it scratch .
The difference between men and boys is the cost of the toys.
Gary
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Quote
"The difference between men and boys is the cost of the toys
Gary"
Not necessarily
vnkiwi
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I made my first model boat when I was 14. I am now 72 and still building model boats. I have completely scratch built boats and made them completely from kits and most shades in between. I enjoy model making, I make them for my own enjoyment and couldn't care less if someone wants to be picky about how to catagorise them. I'm happy with them and if someone else gets some enjoyment from them well thats an added bonus.
It's a hobby, it's fun, enjoy it.
Wizard
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well said
Have to agree
cheers
vnkiwi
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Hi guys
Well so far I have refurbished (almost done now) two old boats I had bought. But mainly I have been happy to buy hulls then work against the rest myself. When I get round to doing my long and very hard researched Kalakala it will be all scratch except the innards and prop.
I like to follow the various build threads and though I love to see scratch I can also appreciate other types. Also if a kit gets someone into the hobby then they may later move to scratch? Now having said all that - if you have a model of a real vessel then I feel you should know enough about the vessel to answer peoples questions at the lake.
Dave
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One thing I have learned from innocently asking this question is that descriptive labels are dangerous. As I never intend entering competitions the term may be largely irrelevant. Every build is in some way unique, embodying the makers individual skills and preferences in a way that incorporates such additional challenges that they may wish to set themselves.
To aim for a ship that will be totally unique on the lake it could be said to avoid tugs and fishing boats, but those are perhaps the most popular build subjects, so again irrelevant. Your choice is personal, as is how much love and effort you are prepared to expend. We all have limits that we try to expand as we progress. It is all about personal satisfaction and pushing the envelope.
Frankly a couple of the most desirable models I have seen started off as kits.
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Just out of interest, what were they?
Andrew