Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: Landlocked on February 09, 2013, 03:56:36 am
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Hi,
Well, I've built my first tank. I won't be attempting a boiler anytime soon but it was a good learning experience.
Built it from .025 in copper. Probably thicker than it needed to be. I could only do the first two bends with vice jaw mounted blocks -- two small a diameter. Placed the sheet between two hardwood strips and used my thumbs and then a body work hammer.
Forward loop is a feedwater preheater. After bushing is for draining water with a syring. After tube is bent to bounce exhaust off of wall to help with separation.
Ken
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Looks a good design Ken........& matched to the TRV :-)) ...........a little sanding, priming & black enamel together with the copper & brass fittings will be a very professional build O0
The dryer coil will get an internal ambient temperature increase even with a lower hot liquid level............
In the exploded view .......I think you may have shown the inlet/outlet condensate endplate 90 %) no........ :embarrassed: 180 degrees out of WACK O0 ...so when assembled, the dryer coil will get an internal ambient temperature increase even with a lower hot liquid level............
Keep up the postings ......we enjoy them O0 ........Derek
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Hi,
Well, I've built my first tank. I won't be attempting a boiler anytime soon but it was a good learning experience.
Built it from .025 in copper. Probably thicker than it needed to be. I could only do the first two bends with vice jaw mounted blocks -- two small a diameter. Placed the sheet between two hardwood strips and used my thumbs and then a body work hammer.
Forward loop is a feedwater preheater. After bushing is for draining water with a syring. After tube is bent to bounce exhaust off of wall to help with separation.
Ken
Ken,
Your exhaust inlet to the tank is O.K. as the exhaust pipe on your engine is pointing aft, can I suggest that you solder a pipe into the exhaust end flat to the bottom and put a piece of Silicone tube on it ( the kind that the Fly boys use for fuel ) with a stopper in the tube.
When finished steaming for the day shut the steam exhaust from the tank to the funnel and the engine while running will pump the water and oil condensate out of the tank and into a container for disposal.
What are the 2- connections on the tank top for, does the one with the 90deg bend go to the funnel ? if so you can use silicone tube to link up to the funnel and then it's only a matter of pinching that tube to pump out the condensate
at the end of the day.
What is the other vertical pipe on the tank top for ?
Your installation looks good, nice job.
George.
Derek,
it's a water heater not a drier.
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Derek,
I wish I could take credit for thinking about whether the coil was immersed in the condensate or not.
What isn't evident from the first photos is the back wall is angled.
I bent the coil as tight as I dared and then fitted it so the coil was horizontal in the square section. I staggered the tubing lengths so I could fasten the lower union (going to the boiler) before fitting the section to the pump. I was concerned about getting the fittings made up since the tank is tucked under the side deck and can't go in and out already made up with the boiler and engine.
On the prototype, the boiler casing was green with the engine a darker red. I'll probably go with black for the tank. Any advice on paints? I think enamel on the tank and engine is ok but not sure on the boiler end. Concerned it will get too hot but burner end is hidden so maybe we're ok painting only the aft end. The true engine enamels are all the wrong colors or minimum order is a gallon.
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George,
Elbow joint is to go to the funnel. It's threaded into a 1/4-40 bush so I may change it to a union. Unfortunately, almost all my piping ended up on the starboard side so I having to fit the piping in layers before determining where the next layer will run. Exhaust will be the last layer. Desire to do it in copper but might change it to rubber.
I've chosen to keep the piping runs fairly long with gentle bends so I have lots of "spring" as I fit things in and out.
Vertical tubing in center is the blow out line (see new photo). I plan on using tubing with a plug. I'll probably trim the length down but better to build it long than short.
Ken
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George,
Elbow joint is to go to the funnel. It's threaded into a 1/4-40 bush so I may change it to a union. Unfortunately, almost all my piping ended up on the starboard side so I having to fit the piping in layers before determining where the next layer will run. Exhaust will be the last layer. Desire to do it in copper but might change it to rubber.
I've chosen to keep the piping runs fairly long with gentle bends so I have lots of "spring" as I fit things in and out.
Vertical tubing in center is the blow out line (see new photo). I plan on using tubing with a plug. I'll probably trim the length down but better to build it long than short.
Ken
Ken,
Yes I am with you now, the pipe from the top of the tank is what I suggested only being soldered into the end plate at the bottom which keeps the pipe tucked in and out of the way.
If you use tubing to the funnel you can blow out at end of the day by blocking the exhaust and it will pump out int a container for disposal, good idea for the sloping floor in the tank which will let you pump out all of the sludge.
Try some of the Auto shops for engine black heat resistant paint, it is available in Mat Black which I have used on some of my boiler ends. ,don't know about gloss.
George.
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Ken......VHT market a range of high temperature engine enamels as George noted...it is available in gloss black.....you bake it in the oven to increase its hardness & chemical resistance
George....... :embarrassed: yes of course a heater not a dryer {-) .....Derek
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Thanks,
I'm hoping to find them in brush on versions. My luck with spray paints is very low.
Ken
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Thanks,
I'm hoping to find them in brush on versions. My luck with spray paints is very low.
Ken
Mike,
It's the brush on version that I use, have a look around your local Auto accessories shop, if you can't find anything there try a D.I.Y. store and look at radiator paint.
Jerry with his S.L.Weir launch build used radiator paint on his engine and boiler so you could have another read at that.
George.
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Well, it's painted. Too many brush strokes. Even sanded between coats and thinned it a little.
Figured out how to mount it to the tray so I can lift it in and out with the tank installed and lines made up.
Ken
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Well, having built the condensate tank, I was ready to build the feed tank.
I built a cardboard mockup to check fit. I angled the walls from top to bottom to more fully fill the volume in the flared bow sections. I considered flaring them out from the fore/aft perspective as well but decided the slight additional volume wasn't worth it. Total volume is about a pint.
I placed the feedtank in the frame bay I had planned for the gas tank. I thought about moving the gas tank one more bay forward but was concerned about being nose heavy. I decided to located the gas tank over the shaft. The valve will protrude through the deck but without a fiber optic probe, I don't think it will be visible from outside.
I used a vice mounted die set to put flanges on the sides and front and back. I decided to use a lap joint instead of a miters at the corners where the side and front/back flanges overlapped. I should have used miters since I ended up with too big of gaps in two corners and had to solder in some filler pieces.
Soldering on the bottom proceeded with no trouble. I had pre-tinned the flanges. I added a baffle plate just offset from centerline to minimize the sloshing from side to side. Pretty close fit top to bottom but about 1/4 in gaps on the sides. I would have preferred smaller gaps but I was out of copper.
I drilled all the fitting holes one drill undersized and then crept up on the fit using a reamer. I was concerned with the bit grabbing and tearing the hole sides. Worked well.
At the last minute, I thankfully spotted in SailorGreg's Solent steam launch build log a reference to a breather tube for his tank. Decided to place it on the centerline and curve it on the inside to almost reach the top to minimize any full tank sloshing pushing some water out.
Soldering on the top was a struggle. My design hadn't taken into account the need to clamp the acute angles at the corners. Bottomline, the side seam solder melted and they sprung out a little. A close look at the picture will reveal my use of epoxy putty. :((
I added a sight gauge. There really isn't much useful length but I had one already. Since the whole feed system is being installed more from a sense of engineering principles and not operational need... in for a penny, in for a pound.
I used a couple of 1/4-40 threaded sleeves from PM Research to thread the 90 degree elbows and stop valve directly together. The offset is needed to avoid the gas pressure control valve assemble occupying the centerline.
Last pic shows the full layout. I need to fit the servos for the engine (I'm going to use the ACTion throttle/shifter mixer) and (re) build the bridge deck that will straddle the front of the boiler (I decided I needed more ventilation -- anybody have a source for 1/16 scale mesh decking?) before I can run my gas, feed, and feed return lines. It's March but I should meet my April float test/steam up goal before I take my summer break.
Ken
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Hi,
What's the group consensus? Run the exhaust along the outside of the stack or into it?
Into it would avoid a non-prototypical extra piping topside and could/should help with the draft but is it worth the hassle? I remember a post where it created too much draft.
My stack has to pass up through two decks. I'll need to section it regardless. I haven't decided whether to run rubber or copper tubing for the exhaust.
My feed tank post shows my configuration.
All thoughts greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Ken
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Hey landlocked %) ...possibly you could ask a Moderator to link all of your previous threads on this build into one single thread O0
Your wish is my command
The makeup water tank looks good....is that a baffle on center ?....the reason I ask is somewhere down the track [retirement?] I am faced with the need for a similar tank as the sailing water I can use is salty or brackish >>:-( [our member southsteyene knows this]
I have considered a water gauge glass as a necessity as will be bottom drain isolation valving, topside venting or breathing of the tank isolation valving & check valve prior to the boiler....etc
We look forward to more text & images of your steam build............ :-)) .....Derek
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Ken, I have five steam powered boats, two of which have the exhaust piped to the funnel. I am not sure how much difference to the draft through the boiler it makes to have the exhaust inside the funnel, personally I have not noticed any difference either way. I will not run it up the funnel any more just because of the mess it makes. I have an oile collector in the exhaust line and I have an adjustable lubricator so I can cut the oil supplied to the engine to a minimum (and get a long run out of one fill of the lubricator) but even if I do this the exhust steam still leaves a mess on the aft cabin so from now on it is out the side for me. It does not seem to make an oil slick in the lake but there is enough to make a stain, especially on a white cabin. Just my opinion and i am sure that others will beg to differ and suggest a taller funnel perhaps. Cheers, Ian.
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I must say I like the exhaust inside the funnel. Had on trouble with spots on the outside of the model, even on my 12 year old Glen Usk. The plus side lots of steam out funnel on a cold day.
Derek . I have sent you 3 PMs have you receved them. Geoff
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Any water and oil making its way into a hot funnel tends to make it sizzle and pop especially if you forget to empty the condensate tank. It is also messy.
I have even had the burner on one model go out when too much water went down the funnel. I think the condensate tank is too small on that model.
I am in favor of a separate out let. I have been thinking of a 2 prong approach with a condensate tank where liquid is drained away so it does not get forced out up the funnel or into the lake.
Any ideas?
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Hi,
I fitted a condensate / oil separator on my steam boat with the oil-free water being syphoned from the bottom of the separator to drain externally. Previously I had a condensate collector which would fill up only after 20 mins steam with the Stuart D10 engine. With this set up there is no need to empty the separator other than a few times in the season when it is advisable to flush out the collected oil with a detergent.
There is an internal baffle plate to direct the incoming condensate away from the steam exit stack which is not connected to the main boiler stack. The discharged water is free from oil, but one must remember to top up with clean water on startup otherwise the initial oily condensate will get discharged overboard!
The current separator has a feed heater coil which raises the temperature from about 9degC to 96degC.
Ian
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Flashtwo,
I never thought about piping the clean bottom layer directly overboard. My deckplate/tank vs waterline level won't support it, there won't be a void for the steam.
When I started, I wasn't planning on the feedpump and I felt comfortable about the condensate tank size. We'll see which is the limiting factor, my gas tank or the condensate tank.
I would love to be working in the D10 size range instead of the TVR1A -- so many more features one could add. I did full size steam in the Navy.
Ken
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Hi,
What should I fill the stern tube with? I thought I would smear some petroleum jelly at the bushings and then fill the tube and its standpipe with cooking oil. Any particular type better? Peanut oil? Canola? Whatever's in the cupboard?
Figure that would be the most environmentally friendly way of doing it.
Ken
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Is the stern tube copper or brass? Brass gives a nasty reaction with vegatable oils. It becomes some sort of gell/gum. I know this by experince,
as a clockmaker I sometimes get repairs that people lubricated with vegetable oil and find this ugly substance on the brass plates. I fill my tubes with petroleum jelly.
Henk.
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Henk,
The tube is brass.
I had heard that filling the entire tube with petroleum jelly produces too much drag on the shaft.
Maybe I need to find the piece I cut off and soak it in some stuff.
Thanks,
Ken
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Well the piping's done.
Water is in the tank and boiler, feedpump primed, oil in the lubricator, gas in the tank. Now I just need some courage and nice weather.
First test will be in the garage without the shaft hooked up. If all goes well, I'll hook up the shaft and test float her. If that's successful, layup for the summer and it'll be superstructure building next fall.
Stay tuned.
Ken
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Well,
That was exciting!!!!
I have a gas leak from or around my gas control valve. Immediately after the flame pull back into the burner, the whole front end was a burning! I quickly shut the gas tank valve -- glad I moved the tank to the aft end.
Demonstrating my Darwin award skills, and after I repeated the phenomenon, I attempted to isolate the leak. I screwed in the pressure adjustment on the gas control valve. When attempting to relight the burner, nothing happened, until enough butane had leaked (still on the first match, I'm not totally a neanderthal) to fill the hull at which it all flashed over -- I no longer could qualify as a missing link either since I now have no hair on my knuckles.
I made up a jumper to contect my tank to directly to the burner. Successful light off. But, I had tried to only partially fill the tank and I obviously hadn't understood the fill until liquid comes out concept. The flame quickly went out on low gas. Still not understanding the concept, I put some more, but not enough gas in -- the venting noise during fill spooked me. This time, the very cold tank told me I had lots of gas expansion.
Third times the charm. The frost on the tank tells me I should let it warm up before trying again.
Stay tuned for tomorrow's update!
Ken
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Goodness Landlocked....take care >>:-(
Is this not a MacSteam gas tank shown below in your setup?
"I have a gas leak from or around my gas control valve".......
I don't quite understand the origin of the leakage ...... <*< .....Derek
(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=41750.0;attach=120469;image)
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Derek,
That is a MacSteam gas tank! It, and its gas shut off valve, are fine. The leakage is coming from the gas control valve that's located between the burner and the feedtank at the right side of the photo. This photo is missing the gas line running from the tank along the far side of the boiler and connecting to the top of the gas control valve (as well as the water line from the feedtank).
I removed its outlet (lower portion of the photo) and used a 6in piece of copper tubing to connect the tank (perched in the framing below the boiler) to the burner to allow further testing.
My tank filling has been taking place outside, not in situ.
Once I get steam up and test the rest of the system, I'll hook up an air supply to the gas control valve system and use some soapy water to test the joints. I suspect it's coming from the control valve stem but might be the inlet joint.
Ken
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Hi Ken, while reading this post something jumped out at me. There's something that doesn't sound right about your gas tank filling procedure. You're not actually filling with a gas but with a liquid. Any "expansion" occurs immediately the first bit of liquid goes into the gas tank until pressure in both filling can and gas tank are equalised after that liquid goes by gravity into the gas tank. When the gas tank is full liquid will splutter from around the filler adapter nozzle. During filling there should be no "venting noises" only, if you listen carefully, the tolnk toink sound of liquid drops falling into the gas tank and the tink tink sound of gas in gas form going up into the gas filling can, just as you would if you were filling with water. When tank is full it shouldn't be very cold and should certainly not have "frost" on it. Cooling of the gas tank only occurs when gas is being used as the latent heat of evaporation needed to turn liquid to gas is sourced from the outer part of the gas tank. You may feel the filling can get slightly cool during emptying and to speed up the filling wrap your hands around it. I have a similar piece of kit and my gas tank takes about 45 to 60 seconds to fill. My launch is an open boat and I fill my tank in situ(against general advise) the small quantity of gas that leaks when tank is full and filler removed doesn't go pop on lighting the burner. If, as occational occurs, the burner goes out and fills the boat with gas I just tip it out and relight. No pops or singed hands and eyebrows! That does however occur if you tilt a full tank when lit (launching boat) and as a result the burner is supplied with liquid and you get a big yellow flame out of the flue. Scary but not a problem. Just turn off the gas. As to your leaking gas control valve, I can't speak cos I don't have one but I would find and stop that leak BEFORE I raised steam.
Best of luck, it's looking great.
Jerry.
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Once I get steam up and test the rest of the system, I'll hook up an air supply to the gas control valve system and use some soapy water to test the joints. I suspect it's coming from the control valve stem but might be the inlet joint.
I notice this is posted on April 1st.
Don't worry about leaks, just keep it all well polished.
Regards Ian.
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Landlocked.........sorry ...I missed a point in your earlier posting......is your gas regulator a BIX029?........
Whilst I understand & agree with the comments/recommendations from Jerry C as below..........if you have an issue with the spindle sealing of the gas regulator....take it up with the manufacturer
It will not be self healing >>:-( ...nor self correcting <*< ......Derek
(http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/images/Burners/BIX029.jpg)
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Ken don't shout at me but if you are using the bix029 then I think you may have the gas feed and burner feed the wrong way round. It's not too easy to see on the last pic. The gas feed from the tank should be on the nipple nearest the adjusting screw. Derek can you post a pic of the bix029 fitting diagram?
Ken if I've got it wrong I apologise profusely.
Jerry.
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http://www.forest-classics.co.uk/bix029.htm
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I quote Professor Henry Higgins, "Damn, Damn, Damn, Damn!"
Jerry, you called it. The diagram that came with it is clear but I obviously didn't mentally make the flip when inverted it with the screw on top.
Having now successfully filled the tank, I understand the liquid vs gas discussion. Once I got well into the filling, the venting sound that had me so concerned ceased.
Thanks for everyone's help. Tonight's busy but stay tuned.
Ken
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It's easily done Ken. I had to look at it several times and it messed with my head before I opened my mouth and put my foot in it. Glad you're sorted. Interesting boiler you have there with the burner other end to the sight glass etc. Did you ask for it that way specially? I found with the burner on 'tother end a lot of heat comes out of the burner air slit impinged on the lower sight glass fitting causing water in tube to boil. I got round it by putting an aluminium plate between the two. I also put a fine copper wire inside the glass. It works but we don't know why.
Jerry.
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Jerry,
Yes, the boiler is semi-custom.
Because of the configuration of the prototype, the steamboat Sabino, my engine and funnel locations were fixed without enough room for the burner between the boiler and the engine. So I needed to have the burner at the front end. Mike worked with me to extend the funnel end so the steam valve and the sight glass could be visible on the aft end.
The fine wire in the sight glass might be providing a wicking surface to disrupt the surface tension of a steam bubble. I can't come up with a scenario for it to transfer enough heat around to impact the boiling rate within the tube.
Ken
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[size=78%]Well,[/size]
One step forward and a couple backwards/sideways.
Got steam up - sorta. The first steam I saw was the vapor coming off the mineral wool I had wetted during the filling process.
Jumped the gun and didn't let pressure build high enough before I started to play. Since I didn't fill the level to high in the sight glass, I ran out of level before I really learned enough. I'll try again tomorrow night.
I think my timing is off on the TVR1A -- even after I rocked it back and forth to clear the water, it didn't want to run reliably. Might still be a water issue but I did yank on the linkage a lot when I was trying to sort out the electronics. I did learn that I didn't lap my inlet valve covers well enough.
Before I re-do my tubing for the gas control valve, I'm going to get new union nuts/nipples. I've learned that not all manufacturers' fitting are interchangeable and in my silver brazing learning curve, I did melt some fittings so I might have done some mismatching.
Ken
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Ken it will be very satisfying when you do get it going. O0 O0 O0
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Well,
It's spring, sort of. We had snow here in May. Outdoor chores and fun have shut down the pond yacht project until October (but a long heat wave in August could result in some progress).
While waiting for replacement unions, I broke things down and tested my TVR1A on air. Discovered many key bolts had loosened up between the upper section and the lower. I have tiny open end wrenches on order. I can't use my tube type spanners (note my universal mixing of terms) with the exhaust/intake manifolds in place.
I have a short list of design improvements to go with my attempts to fix my errors when things restart in Oct.
I met (sort of) my goals for the past winter. Mechanicals assembled and tested (fortunately I was not specific on my list -- I never said "successfully" :-) ). The float test was the only item lacking and I could use the tub if things get too cold too quickly this autumn.
Thanks to all for the hints, help, and encouragement.
Enjoy the summer!
Ken/Landlocked
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Well,
The summer heat wave has arrived, a little later than normal. Peaches are picked and the first apples are coming in. I'm working on re-caulking the seams for the juice box for the apple cider press. Caulk isn't setting up. Tube must have been too old. I'll give it one more day before scrapping it off.
Meantime, I've done some minor work on the project. I decided not to try to mimic prototype insulation and did some (semi-) fancy rope work. I did continuous half-hitches around the longer piping sections leaving a spiral ridge and a turk's head on the upper section of the lubricator.
I redid the feedpump bypass valve/boiler inlet piping area (pictures to follow next time I pull the power plant out of the hull). After the checkvalve didn't seat with the elbow in the horizontal orientation and blew the boiler into the water tank, I decided reorient it to vertical and use elbows and sleeve couplings to pull things together. Made the piping run from the preheater in the condensate pump much simpler/straighter.
I cleaned up some stray solder on the gas fittings and hopefully they'll now stay tight . I'm stripping the flux off of my silver rods and relying on what I apply prior to heating up. Hopefully this will keep the solder where it belongs.
After a preliminary float test, it'll be back to testing the mechanicals.
Stay tuned.
Landlocked/Ken
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Here's yesterday's promised picture of my redone feed piping and insulation. I changed my plans and decided to do some air testing before the float test. As you can see when compared to my earlier post, the big "S" curve in the preheater outlet is gone.
I was glad to confirm that I could wiggle out the plant with most of the piping intact. l have to disconnect the feedtank supply and return, the gas line near the rear-mounted tank, and the servos.
Exhaust pipe routing is still to be determined. I'm currently thinking of running it into the stbd side of the funnel with a union. I think I can thread a 90 degree elbow onto the end of the union threads followed by a pipe running part way up the funnel.
Landlocked/Ken
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Another hot day so -- to the cool cellar and my steam plant.
Tried to run it on air. Not good. Ran well with direction lever down but barely moved with it up. <:( Similar to last Spring's steam test.
Checked coarse timing, no issues. Took off aft end cover and tweaked valve position. I think it ended up back where I started. Still no joy
I'll have to remove the boiler from the base plate to get to the front cover and maybe the feedpump as well. Not in the mood to try anything more tonight. >>:-(
Landlocked/Ken
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. ;) ...& Ken says......"I'll have to remove the boiler from the base plate to get to the front cover and maybe the feedpump as well"
As you know Ken....there are a few experienced members here with the TVR engines........may be best to consider their thoughts/comments first........
However from your points, simple maintenance needs to be able to be carried out without major structural removal of components........
This is not a criticism ........just a learning point for all members & me included....keep us posted...............Derek
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Balancing access to components with fitting things into the prototype's available space is always a challenge. I just didn't think think adjusting the timing was simple maintenance. It ran ok on air last fall before I started working the live steam part. I had a lot of bolts loosen up when testing on steam last Spring.
As a submariner, space for maintenance was usually not there. It seems like we had to always had to remove three layers of stuff to get to the part we wanted to work on.
I needed to remove the boiler at some point to paint the floorboards, so it's not all wasted effort.
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Topic renamed. :-)
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It was just under 100 degree F today and will be for the next four days so I getting more project time. I'll wish for the heat in about 3 months.
I've run-in my engine on air for about 3 more hours. Much better. Tomorrow I'm going to re-solder the union ring onto the inlet pipe and reassemble for a steam test.
I decided to run my exhaust up my stack.
Tapped a 1/4-40 hole in the side, threaded a union through it and into an elbow. Internal exhaust pipe is currently taller than the stack but that's temporary. It allowed me to hold the elbow in position to engage the threads as the union penetrated the pipe.
I have to tilt the exhaust aft to match the original so there's still some tweaking to be done. Bend it, or cut on the 1/2 angle and solder back together, or make sleeved joint from a botched up angle fitting from the big world and just cut the pipe into straight sections? I'm leaning to the sleeve idea since there's two decks for the pipe to penetrate and should/could make post steam up reassembly easier.
Thoughts?
Landlocked/Ken
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Too many outdoor chores during the holiday weekend but final got a chance to steam it up.
Looks like my face polishing efforts didn't solve my gas line leaks. Soapy water showed relatively small bubbling. Steam didn't want to come up. Not sure if it was from restricted flow or low gas levels.
I jumped out the pressure regulator and steamed up with my test connection from the re-filled tank to the burner.
Pressure built up ok to 30# and started the run in. Feedpump pumped well in an open circuit mode and I started to close down on the bypass valve but not quickly since I wanted level to come down a bit more in the gage. Pressure didn't want to stay above 20# with throttle 90 degrees open. Without being in the water, not sure what that means at this point.
The solder joint (ring type) between the steam line and the throttle valve/lubricator inlet failed. Checking with Jerry at Clevedon if I can shift to a more standard cone. Trial fit up seemed good but only a thin contact line. Maybe some grinding compound to soften the edge?
Thoughts?
Ken
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Pressure built up ok to 30# and started the run in. Feedpump pumped well in an open circuit mode and I started to close down on the bypass valve but not quickly since I wanted level to come down a bit more in the gage. Pressure didn't want to stay above 20# with throttle 90 degrees open. Without being in the water, not sure what that means at this point.
Ken,
The boiler pressure will fall when running your engine on the bench, the steam is going thro' your engine without doing any work, when you get the boat into the water you will find that the pressure will stabilise as the engine starts to work.
I can't comment on your troubles with gas leaks but how about a small drop of thread lock sealant on the threads,
I use Loctite 243 ( Blue in colour ) don't use P.T.F.E tape as the L.P.G. melts it and it will gum up in the pipe to the jet.
You seam to be having trouble with the connection to the Lubricator, how about a coned nipple Silver soldered on to the pipe line, if you are unable to silver solder you can soft solder the nipples as at the pressure that your engine runs this will be enough.
George.
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Ken this is the method I have used. With no problems on all my gas lines. Geoff
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One step forward, one sideways, one backward -- oh wait, that's the box step. :}
No concerns anymore on performance of boiler. I was too new to recognize a partially plug jet. Not sure what I swallowed but boy, what a difference!
Any thoughts about leaving the BIX gas regulator out of the circuit are gone. I couldn't keep the safety from lifting with the engine spinning as fast as I dared.Lost a valve linkage, looks like the bolt backed out. Once cool I'll re-tighten. Fortunately on the non-feedpump end. Is this a routine thing with TVR1As? Thinking about thread lock but not sure how to keep it off the sliding faces. Maybe if I applied it from the back side.
used a nipple union on the steam inlet to the throttle instead of the ring. I used a little fine grinding paste followed by rubbing compound. Not sure if I really did anything. Joint seems to be working OK.
My repair to the outlet side with the ring is holding. Not much length on the TVR1A inlet manifold to slide a nipple, would place the joint right next to the solder joint for the first steam chest. I would HATE to de-solder that while trying to attach the ring.
I'm a little concerned about the rate at which my condensate tank is filling. My feed pre-heater coil may be acting too much like a cooling coil and the steam isn't going up the exhaust.
Not having a whistle (yet) to bleed the residual steam off with, I've learned to disconnect the water supply to keep the collapsing steam bubble from drawing water through the feed pathway and leaving me with a high out of sight boiler.
I think I'm going to try soldering new gas lines with nipples one more time. I'd like to claim my silver soldering technique has improved but... {-) If they fail again, I'll look at Hammer's technique (I'll need a source for tiny 'o' rings). Don't think I need thread lock to help with the leaking (but I may need it for vibration reasons), the soap bubbles are from the pipe area on the back of the nut.
Ken/Landlocked
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Ken, O ring available from Polly Engineering on this side of the pond. So must be a source your side. Geoff
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Geoff,
The model live steam hobby, both boats and traction engines, seems to be much more popular on your side of the pond. I'm sure there are "O" ring suppliers for all sizes over here but finding them retail is not easy.
I've already used Polly Engineering, Clevedon, MaccSteam, and Forest Classics as suppliers. Shipping and time really isn't that bad. Thank goodness for PayPal.
I have my new gas lines soldered up. I've changed fluxes and my soldering went much better. Picked up more camp fuel and I'll have another go at it this weekend.
Right now I'm watching America's Cup. Doesn't look good for the home team.
Ken
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Ken, it looks just great from this side of the world!! :} :-))
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%% {-) :embarrassed: %% %%
It works!!! Everything in the circuit except the feed tank and electronics!
Some concerns mid run when I couldn't maintain steam pressure with the regulator back off but then realized I hadn't fully opened the gas tank valve and the gas cooling had dropped the supply rate to the regulator down from light off.
Some concerns about condensate tank capacity. Looks like the current limiting factor at about 5 minutes. I'll do a precision capacity measurement and then get you'alls opinion if I need a bigger tank (although I suspect I'll try to figure out a buddy tank system, given the pre-heater I've built into this one).
Thanks for everyone's help and encouragement -- on to the test float!
Landlocked/Ken
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Hi,
I measured my condensate tank capacity because I was concerned it was filling up too fast.
Measured out at 140cc's. Is this too small for my 3 1/2 inch MaccSteam boiler w/ a feedpump?
Thoughts?
Landlocked/Ken
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Ken, my de oiler tank is 70cc. My plant similar to yours. 70 cc perfectly adequate for up to 50 minute run. So what's the difference?
1) my tank is lagged and what isn't lagged is polished brass. Yours is unlagged and satin black, perfectly configured to radiate heat causing condensation.
2) the exhaust steam pipe from exhaust manifold on engine is black plastic, which also radiates heat causing exhaust steam temp to drop.
3) my feed water heater(economiser) is in the funnel, yours is in the de oiler tank, further cooling the exhaust steam. Many people use the de oiler to heat the feedwater without issues though.
Conclusions:- lag all steam manifolds, pipes from boiler to de oiler exhaust and de oiler tank itself. (In steam, See "Jerrys Steam Launch Wear" about page 3 for how I did it.
I think all the above will improve the duration of your de oiler. Best if luck.
Jerry.
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Jerry,
I was coming to the conclusion that the lack of insulation was the issue. Exhaust manifold for certain (and I'll re-do the inlet manifold and steam piping. I did them and then I had the union ring soldering issues). I don't think the rubber hose between the exhaust manifold is a problem. If it was hard plastic yes but rubber itself is an insulating material. I'll probably start with cotton twine again before trying something as impressive as your work :-)) [size=78%] [/size]
(although I discovered that my cotton twine has some synthetics in it when I didn't trim the steam line back far enough and it melted instead of burning >:-o ).
My de-oiler design is probably not helpful either. I put a bend inside the tank on the inlet pipe to try to "fling" the oil out. That bend points down and back and ends about 1/2 way down the tank. Once it's half full, the exhaust is bubbling through the condensate!
I don't think the standard vertical slats design would look very good in my case. I'm thinking thin plywood over the ceramic wool. I might try two layers in spots if I can do it without having to do major piping re-work.
It's been a long time since I studied black body heat radiation. Black paint and heat absorption I understand but is black paint and heat radiation really a significant factor?
System is back in the boat and electronics hooked up. I'm going to do a basic float test to check trim to calculate how much weight I can budget for the superstructure and then it's initial sea trials. Hopefully this weekend but the heat wave is breaking and there are outside chores waiting.
Landlocked/Ken
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It floats!! :}
The good news is not that it floats but it took 6 lbs to bring her down to her marks. Boiler and feedtank were 1/2 in the sight glasses. Might be able to squeeze in another pint between the two.
Should leave me plenty of margin for the superstructure -- plan on using a lot of thin plywood and styrene.
Hopefully it's not an omen but found string algae on the prop (or should I say wheel in proper steamboat fashion?) when I lifted her out.
Hope to get a short steaming test this weekend. Pond is too small for anything more than confirming basic functions.
Here's a couple of pics. The hull is all wrong but I thought "African Queen" with reviewing them.
Landlocked/Ken
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It steams! :-) It steers! :-) It crashes into the side of the pond! :}
First test sail went well aside from minor annoyances of a plugged orifice and a loose grub screw on the shaft coupling (fortunately on the accessible side – may need to add some openings in the gas tank deck).
Everything worked well. The pond was just too small.
Rapid throttle changes generated a lot of splash with the wash. Once she’s trimmed down to her lines, should be less.
Rudder response seemed adequate.Hard to tell in the small space.
I may give her one more test and then I’ll start working on insulating the de-oiler, the steam lines, and start building the superstructure.
Noticed a comment on the forum about condensation issues if there’s too much distance from the boiler to the whistle.Thinking of mounting the whistle control valve next to the boiler and then mounting the whistle by the stack.
Has anyone had experience with that amount of distance between valve and whistle?
The challenge will then be to figure how to slide the superstructure in place over 10 inches of unsupported tubing with the whistle in place.
With luck, I’ll be able to thread it through the stack standoff shielding on the second deck and then secure the whistle with a union.
Thoughts?
Landlocked/Ken
Layout corrected. Please use the 'Preview' before you transmit.
Ken
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Where's the video?
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:(( None, operator error due to insufficient training.
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I had to take a couple of weeks off. I've developed "trigger finger" in my left index finger (I'm a lefty). Looks like surgery in the future but I gave up on "rest" and am working around the pain. Hard to yield a knife when you can't put down pressure using your index finger.
I've built a jumper from the feedpump to the boiler, cutting out the pre-heater. It's my backup plan in case insulating the condensate tank doesn't give enough add'l steaming time.
I've started insulating the condensate tank. I'm going to use ceramic wool covered by 1/32 mm plywood. I'm using standoff strips to glue the plywood in place with the wool cutout around them.
Things are cooling off quickly outside but I hope to get some more test steams.
Stay tuned.
Ken/Landlocked
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Ken,
If you were closer I could recommend a very good surgeon, I had "trigger finger" in my left ring finger years back. Went through the three cortisone shots routine, but ended up with surgery. Have had no problems since with that finger, but am now having problems with my right hand so am back to the cortisone shots.
Regards,
Gerald.
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Gerald,
Thanks for the news the surgery works. Mine is scheduled for the 31st. Two fingers, index and ring, both on left. Wish I knew what caused it. The cortisone shot made the index worse.
Ken
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Making progress with the condenser insulation. Three sides and one end done. The other end piece will need to be split into two. Can't slide over the unions.
I'll build a cardboard template for the top. Took me three tries to get the one end done and it only has one penetration! {:-{
Stuck my arm into the "trial basin" to clean leaves out of the filter basket. I will NOT be doing anymore sea trials this Fall. I might get an external steam test if I get the insulation done before Indian Summer comes and goes (and my surgery comes. Once the tank is done, I'll do the string work on the manifolds and piping. Hopefully the fingers will play nice and let me do it.
Here's the current status.
Ken/Landlocked
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This weekend felt like I did the box step again – one forward, one sideways, one backwards, and then sideways again.
I finished insulating the tank. Technique of gluing to the tank mounted strips worked well. Challenge was the seams where the covering plywood met. Used tape as clamps but not as even as I would have like (one step forward).
Since I sized the tank to fit between my frames, I had to trim away about half of the frame width to accommodate the extra length. Here was where I took a step backwards. My Dremel sander did a great job but when trying to square out the corners with a small chisel (and here is where I’m going to blame my awkward, trigger finger induced grip), I didn’t control it well enough, it slipped off the frame and straight through the hull. Any remote chances of another float test this season was gone. I may sister the frames but I’m thinking the fiberglass mat and epoxy coating had made the hull into a monocoque structure.
Leaving the hull repair for another day, I turned to the various pieces of piping. The feed lines fitted up ok but the thickness of the bottom insulation had raised the tank up to where the steam outlet elbow interfered with the feedpump outlet. (one step sideways). I could have used a double male union fitting but that would have probably necessitated a new discharge line. Making lemonade from lemons, I decided to add a 90 degree valve to be able to use steam back pressure to blow the condensate tank contents out the drain tube. Screwing the valve directly into the tank bushing would still not have given me the required clearance so I used the dbl union and a female sleeve to stack the valve a little higher.
But, here’s the other step sideways. Now the steam outlet interfered with the steam line to the engine! After annealing the outlet line, I was able to get enough clearance which was good, I didn’t want to strip the insulation from the steam supply line to anneal it again!
I’m still hopeful I’ll be about to do a steam up on the porch and get an assessment of my new condensate tank fill time, both with and without using the pre-heater, before the weather’s too cold.
Stay tuned.
Ken/Landlocked
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Greetings all,
I'm back in action after my surgery -- some residual issues that should eventually go away but much better. However, I was disappointed to notice that I still had the most current post -- from 27 Oct -- in this part of the forum! Somebody has to be doing something interesting.
Even though my last post shows my "final" piping configuration after insulating my separator, I'm rebuilding it again, already.
After reading XRAD's post about his condenser, I realized the through flow of feed through my separator was nearly as much as his cooling flow. I had been foolish and sending all of the feed through the tank and then splitting the return flow from the part going into the boiler. Now wonder my separator was filling up so fast! It was trying to be a condenser.
So, I've checked and there's room to split the flow before the condenser. I'll need to redo three of the lines - which of course I've already wrapped in twine.
Stay tuned.
Landlocked/Ken
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:o & Ken says......"I'll need to redo three of the lines - which of course I've already wrapped in twine"
Never fear Ken...I have 100 yards of genuine OZ 100% cotton twine left........just holla if you need some O0
PS...it is so old it is prior to metrication so is a nominal 0.058" diameter {-) .....Derek
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I thought you guys down under used wool for everything! :}
Looks like the yarns have a pretty tight twist. Shows how old it it.
The real headache is untying all half hitches I did along the length of each of them (or at least the one that think I can shorten and reuse).
Ken
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Making good progress. Of course with a -24 C windchill outside, there's not as much competition for my time.
I was able to shorten, rebend, and and reuse enough tubing that I didn't have to dip into my raw stock expect for the still-to-be-built return to the feed tank.
The three silver soldering operations went quickly. Amazing what the right flux will do for you.
Once I rewrap the lines with twine, engineering work should be done till the Spring. My goal for the winter is to get the bulwarks/railing built around the maindeck. A couple of external walls would be nice. I'll probably throw some pics on a new thread in the Steam portion of the forum and leave this thread for engineering type work.
Stay warm!
Ken/Landlocked
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It's cold but it's going to be a white Christmas. :-))
I thought I was shifting to a new thread in the other section but I realized that I have several engineering-based decisions to make as I went so I decided to keep this thread going go a while.
Whilst the decking the main deck, to stay relatively true to the prototype, I had to build a cross-walk over the front end of the boiler (where the burner is). I built the first one last winter and didn't leave enough height to clear the final boiler position (I think I forgot to add the lagging thickness). For its replacement, I decided that it would be wise to provide some more ventilation to the area. I'm using aluminum window screening as the perforated decking. It's soft enough that I could use a broad wood chisel to cut it to size without the distortion shears wanted to add (please don't tell my wood shop instructor -- also please don't tell my English teacher I mixed up except and expect in the last post).
We'll see how it works.
Ken/Landlocked
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Coming along nicely Ken. Did you fix the hole in the hull yet? Of course, if you keep using your chisels to cut metal, they probably won't damage the wood so much next time ;)
Merry Christmas - stay warm! (Although I am UK based I am spending Christmas with relations in southern California - 80 degrees forecast for Christmas Day! :-)) )
Greg
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Greg.
Hole in hull is patched and sanded. Single digits Fahrenheit today. Wind chill in the minus teens. The melt last week wasn't enough to clear the ice off. Instead of smooth ice with a couple of fluffy inches of snow, we have pebbly ice with a couple of inches of crusty snow plus 2 inches of new fluffy stuff. Looks like no ice boating this year unless we get a good January thaw. >:-o
Must be a 9 hr flight from England to LAX -- too long but not as bad as LAX to Sydney which about 14 hours. If I get to go again, I'm thinking a stop over in Fiji! :}
Don't forget you sunscreen.
Ken
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Enjoyed reading about the build interesting proto type Ken :-))
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We’re getting ready to clean out the garden pond so I’ll have my test basin back. Time to get back to work on the engineering.
Last autumn, as I tried the fool’s errand of trying to find a single setting on the feed bypass valve that would maintain boiler level, I noticed that a small change in the handwheel position would change things from too far open to too far closed. So, I thought I could use my water level control system to control a solenoid that, through linkage, would cycle the valve across the sweet spot.
I tried mounting a ball joint on the periphery of handwheel but the limited lever length seemed too short. So, after a short stop to order BA thread taps, I made a lever arm. I ordered two 5V solenoids from a robot supply shop, a small and a medium. The attached pictures shows my trial mock up.
First impression is the basic concept is sound but my repurposed servo arms, cut down from four to two, are too short to multiple the very short throw of the solenoid to sufficient distance to move the valve’s lever. It also appears the return spring on the solenoid is too weak to push the valve lever back open.
The “medium” size solenoid is too big to fit inside a single bench seat/lockers. I’m thinking neither the raised seat height nor the push/pull shaft will be particularly noticeable through the windows.
First plan is to try to find/make a different set of linkage arms and beef up the solenoid return spring. Plan two is the bigger size system.
Any thoughts out there?
Landlocked/Ken
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Morning Ken.......without knowing the brand or type of your bypass feed valve......you could consider
1. Use a standard servo modified for 360 degree or continuous rotation
2. Rotate the bypass feed valve body to the same axis to that as of the servo [same torque value in both directions]
3. I suppose the only issue will be understanding if the unseating torque will be sufficient to overcome the induced seating torque previously
In engineering practice, the unseating torque of a high tensile fastener can be 1.5 times the seating torque that was applied
My reason for interest is that I have recently installed a paddle shaft axis boiler feed make up piston pump & an auxiliary electric drive with the identical pump....so am in the same boat in trying to understand if it is possible to achieve an answer without some sort of optical level device in the boiler itself..............Derek
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We’re getting ready to clean out the garden pond so I’ll have my test basin back. Time to get back to work on the engineering.
Last autumn, as I tried the fool’s errand of trying to find a single setting on the feed bypass valve that would maintain boiler level, I noticed that a small change in the handwheel position would change things from too far open to too far closed. So, I thought I could use my water level control system to control a solenoid that, through linkage, would cycle the valve across the sweet spot.
I tried mounting a ball joint on the periphery of handwheel but the limited lever length seemed too short. So, after a short stop to order BA thread taps, I made a lever arm. I ordered two 5V solenoids from a robot supply shop, a small and a medium. The attached pictures shows my trial mock up.
First impression is the basic concept is sound but my repurposed servo arms, cut down from four to two, are too short to multiple the very short throw of the solenoid to sufficient distance to move the valve’s lever. It also appears the return spring on the solenoid is too weak to push the valve lever back open.
The “medium” size solenoid is too big to fit inside a single bench seat/lockers. I’m thinking neither the raised seat height nor the push/pull shaft will be particularly noticeable through the windows.
First plan is to try to find/make a different set of linkage arms and beef up the solenoid return spring. Plan two is the bigger size system.
Any thoughts out there?
Landlocked/Ken
Ken,
I am assuming that you are trying to balance the pump to your boiler on the bench and not in the water driving the boat.
It's very difficult under these circumstances to get the by pass just correct as the steam is rushing thro' the engine without doing any meaningful work.
There has been several pumps made the same as yours for the TVR engine and all seam to be working with no problems in the water under load using a bypass valve to keep a Maccsteam boiler like yours filled, so can I suggest that you wait until you get your pond cleared before trying to set your bypass valve with the boat in the water.
I have been watching your build and must say that I admire your workmanship, I look forward to see it progressing .
George.
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George,
The quick answer is yes, I'll try to find the just a little too far open/a little too far shut point under load in the pond. The lever is threaded so I'll lock it in place with the original handwheel nut. Right now, I'm just trying to get the linkage working right. I think I can get about 70 degrees of turn which, at least when dealing with the system unloaded on the bench is more than enough to straddle the sweet spot. Regardless, I'm going to try to keep it from ever seating the globe valve to minimize the unseating torque. I've noticed the phenomenon Derek mentioned (although the 1.5 factor was news but seems about right).
I'm using a BF Industries water level control system that gives me a on/off switch for a pump or solenoid. I would love it if ACTion could turn that signal into a rotational signal to drive a servo a set rotation, then I would use a chain linkage from a servo to spin the valve shaft and wouldn't have to fine tune the sweet spot (HINT, HINT!).
Right now I'm trying to find time in my schedule to visit my local hobby shop and see if I can adapt something from the aircraft side of the hobby. My part bin has let me down.
Stay tuned.
Landlocked/Ken
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Made it to my hobby shop and came back with the right size servo arms. I'll trim the third one off when I'm done playing.
Came to the conclusion there wasn't enough room within a single bench locker to fit the solenoid and the linkage so...
I moved the solenoid aft and tried a new linkage arrangement. Things were encouraging but there was too much friction for the small solenoid to work.
The medium size solenoid would pull in OK but the spring wasn't strong enough to push it back out. I had set up the linkage to multiply the travel to get the most movement of the valve level I could.
So, I moved the outboard push arm's attachment point out to increase the lever arm as well as moving the forward push arms point inward. Things moved much easier. I get about 50 degrees of throw from the valve's lever so I'm hoping that's enough to find and straddle the "under load" sweet spot. I'm going to "go final" with this concept.
The bad news was I poked a hole in the hull with a file while enlarging holes in the underdecking to position the pivot shaft's blocking. Damn. >>:-(
Stay tuned.
Landlocked/Ken
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Well,
I had every intention to run Sabino through another set of engineering trials on the pond this summer with the boiler level control circuit in the system. But... after I did my full assembly this Spring, I came to the realization that my design wasn't going to work and all the air went out of my balloon.
I had tucked the gas jet under the side decking when I thought I could also finish the interior to scale and now there is no good way to get to it if the orifice clogs. Between cooldown time and more significant than anticipated disassembly/reassembly needs/time, a clogged orifice will end any reasonable length session at the pond (reasonableness being established by outside forces ;) )[size=78%].[/size]
While there's room to port to relocate the gas pressure regulator assembly, there's not enough room to rotate the gas jet assembly vertical without interfering with the deck house (which of course I finished last Spring) so I brooded all Summer and skipped the too hot August project period. With the waning length of day and some Autumn temps, I'm now motivated to get started. I think I can slide the front edge of the deck house forward without too much of a Frankenstein appearance. First step is to get started on the piping rework.
Stay tuned.
Ken/Landlocked
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Good luck with the changes Ken. I'm sure you will get it sorted soon. And when you have fixed it I bet you don't have to remove the jet for ages! Of course if you'd left it alone it would clog very time you raised steam O0
Greg
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Hi Ken,
Your launch is coming along nicely, now that the warm weather is passing you will be able to get it completed, great build so far.
I don't want to highjack your thread but here is a pic which may remind you of of your past now that you are landlocked, I was out with Mrs T and now seeing your post reminded me of your past.
It was taken on the South side of the Firth of Clyde opposite Dunoon just past The Cloch light house, I hope that you can see what the subject is as it may be a bit small.
Regards
George.
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George,
Thanks for recalling my past. It could have been me in 1983 when I arrived by submarine on my first visit to Scotland. At first I thought it might be the US SSBN that recently visited Faslane but the sail/fin makes it look like one of yours.
By the way, we had a wonderful cruise through your fair land in August on the Lord of the Glens to include a transit of the Caledonian canal.
Ken
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I finished reconfiguring my burner piping a while back but never posted a picture of the engineering side. I checked to make sure I had the in and outs in the right spot (see posting earlier in this thread) :} .
Second shot is the overall engineering layout. Upper (stbd side) has the solenoid and linkage to control the bypass valve and the port side has the electronics for the level control. Eventually, if I ever finish the interior, they'll be covered by side benches.
[size=78%]Ken/Landlocked[/size]