Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Neil on February 19, 2013, 10:02:18 am

Title: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Neil on February 19, 2013, 10:02:18 am
I have always wanted to take a perfect photgraph........but I don't think I could ever get one as good as this one that I have just found on Shipsnostalgia........take a look............pure brilliant.
http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=366961 (http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=366961)
 
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: thegrimreaper on February 19, 2013, 10:09:05 am
You have to register to view the picture you link to Neil
 
Mark.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: sailorboy61 on February 19, 2013, 01:19:56 pm
Not detracting from a good photo, but it doesn't really fit the rules for a great picture composition wise at least. What is great about it is the capturing of some excellent conditions, but that's generally down to patience and the right time in the right place! (Oh, and I don't claim to be a great tog by any means, but I've a decent grounding in it).
 
Well if that doesn't put the cat amongst the pigeons.....................    <*<   >>:-(    >>:-(
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Neil on February 19, 2013, 03:17:06 pm
I don't give a stuff about rules and regs sailorboy......to me it's an excellent picture....who gives a stuff about rules and regs if it's immensly pleasing to my eyes.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: sailorboy61 on February 19, 2013, 03:44:50 pm
As I said, not to detract from the photo which is indeed pleasing to the eye, and each to their own, however, you do care about rules and regs as clearly shows from your builds, you wouldn't put something that didn't belong on one of your boats even if it looked OK.
I know a little more about photography than I do about model boats, which isn't difficult. I respect your skills and knowledge as a model maker, I was just commenting that in my opinion it's pleasing but it isn't perfection.
 
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on February 19, 2013, 04:46:59 pm
Surely rules are made to be broken, how do we advance anything if we stay within the guidelines given to us by others. I give you the Impressionist movement as a prime example. Considered way beyond what was acceptable at the time, now we paint through a stencil on a bit of wall and thats art!
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 19, 2013, 05:00:46 pm
Quote
you wouldn't put something that didn't belong on one of your boats even if it looked OK.

I don't think that is a fair analogy really. Much photography is artistic in many respects such as soft focus shots intended to give atmosphere rather than clinical verisimilitude. Certainly there are guidelines such as the rule of thirds and you will tend to take better photographs if you are aware of and follow them but as Unbuiltnautilus says, rules are made to be broken as long as you lnow what you are doing, otherwise we wouldn't have had masterpieces such as Turner's paintings.
 
Colin
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Stavros on February 19, 2013, 06:45:56 pm
All I will say on Photography is When is a picture a Proper picture and STRAIGHT OUT OF THE CAMERA taken properly with the correct appature,correct speed etc etc etc and NOT a Photoshopped or played with image...........................NOT a lot of the about belive you me............now thast what you call a contreversial statement..I used to HATE camera club comps as all my pics were straight out of the camera and not photoshoped exactly as I saw it whether there was a whatever in the way it was NOT removed
 
 
Dave
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 19, 2013, 07:25:19 pm
You can't always trust the camera Dave. I took some local pictures last week of the trees on a hill all covered with snow. It was just like fairyland. But because it was so white the camera underexposed the scene and I had to use Photoshop to bring it back to what it actually looked like.
 
Also, you can take photos in a badly lit model boat exhibition and they all come out too dark. Photoshop allows you to bring out the missing detail and show you what you actually saw.
 
Colin
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Neil on February 19, 2013, 08:08:56 pm
but it isn't perfection.

it is to me, and that's all I'm bothered about!!! >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on February 19, 2013, 08:18:29 pm
Surely rules are made to be broken, how do we advance anything if we stay within the guidelines given to us by others. I give you the Impressionist movement as a prime example. Considered way beyond what was acceptable at the time, now we paint through a stencil on a bit of wall and that's art!

Try telling me that when I am booking you for speeding, illogical %% %%   {-) {-) {-) {-)
 
RULES provide order from chaos O0 O0 O0
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on February 19, 2013, 08:22:28 pm
I don't give a stuff about rules and regs sailorboy......to me it's an excellent picture....who gives a stuff about rules and regs if it's immensly pleasing to my eyes.

 
 :police: :police: :police: :kiss: :kiss: :kiss:
 
 {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on February 20, 2013, 04:22:31 pm

Try telling me that when I am booking you for speeding, illogical %% %%   {-) {-) {-) {-)
 
RULES provide order from chaos O0 O0 O0

I am fairly sure breaking laws is a bit more dangerous to your on going freedom than breaking rules. I wasn't advocating going out and driving the wrong way down the street at 100mph.....Chaos rules, Mayhem, not so sure the world is ready for that :}
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: unicorn on February 20, 2013, 04:38:13 pm
 ok2 ok2 ok2 ok2 ok2 ok2 ok2 ok2 ok2 ok2


  Rules are for wise men`s guidance and fools to obey!!!!!!!
         
                                               :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: john44 on February 20, 2013, 06:34:40 pm
You can't always trust the camera Dave. I took some local pictures last week of the trees on a hill all covered with snow. It was just like fairyland. But because it was so white the camera underexposed the scene and I had to use Photoshop to bring it back to what it actually looked like.
 
Also, you can take photos in a badly lit model boat exhibition and they all come out too dark. Photoshop allows you to bring out the missing detail and show you what you actually saw.
 
Colin

Colin when I first started photography some 40 years ago we had to use range finders, light meters,calculations, and faster and slower film bellows for macro shots
so for shots in snow we would use a fast shutter speed/or small aperture depending on what we wanted from the shot.. I am talking 35mm etc.
All the fun has gone out of photography LOL, {-)
I have lost count of the good pic,s I missed due to having to work out speed and aperture settings. I will stick to my digital.
films for now

john
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Colin Bishop on February 20, 2013, 07:13:58 pm
John,
 
I started photography 50 years ago with a Box Brownie and yes, I came to use rangefinders exposure meters, different film types and speeds etc, etc.
 
In the end you had to wait to see what you had got.
 
In these digital days the camera and the post processing process are seamless as you are simply woking on the digital image file whether in the camera itself or on your PC afterwards.
 
Obviously you can fiddle with the digital camera settings when you take the photos if time permits but sometimes you just have to take the picture on automatic and sort it out later and I have no problems with that.  At the end of the day it's about capturing the image you want.
 
Colin
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: john44 on February 20, 2013, 08:57:05 pm
Exactly right Colin O0

john
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: grendel on February 20, 2013, 09:52:09 pm
thats what the cameras that can capture the raw image are all about, that image has much more depth and colour range than a standard picture, it is literally as the sensor sees it with no film settings applied, thus all of the processing can be applied manually.
Grendel
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: irishcarguy on February 21, 2013, 10:05:59 pm
I have to disagree with the statement that you had to wait to see what you had got. I have some 30,000 slides on file. When I pressed the button I knew exactly what I had taken, the down side was there were no surprises when I got my processed film back & I opened the box or package. Today it is not photography it is graphic art. The true art of photography was seeing a picture that you wanted & then having the skill to record what you wanted on the film. This is 30 years of failure & practice speaking & hundreds of thousands of frames shot until I could get the image I wanted 99% of the time. Mick B. 
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Norseman on February 21, 2013, 11:37:15 pm

RULES provide order from chaos

Order is the most temporary state of chaos

Dave
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: vnkiwi on February 22, 2013, 04:01:32 am
ok you lot. <*<

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and in Neils eyes he is quite correct in his statement.
How can you tell him otherwise, you don't have his eyes.
Just because you think its not to your liking (or rules) doesn't make you right and Neil wrong.
You both could be right, both wrong, or beg to differ, doesn't change how Neil see's it.
I better grab ma hat, ma coat, and skeedadle under the door  :-))

cheers
vnkiwi %)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: ardarossan on February 22, 2013, 09:09:48 am
Having checked this thread several times as replies have followed Neil's OP, it isinteresting to see all the differing opinions regading photos and photography.

With it being such a wide-ranging subject, I don't think there is any way that there can be a singular definitive answer to what constitutes 'the perfect photograph', despite some valiant attempts to do so. It's purely subjective and about as likely to yield a result as asking what makes the perfect piece of music.

Anyway, frustrated at not knowing what the photo in question actually was, I just registered on the shipsnostalgia.com website to see it.
Not being slightly interested in the composition, or balance, or whether it had been touched-up or how atmospheric it may be, or the 'honesty', etc, I just wanted to see it. So, when the image was finally revealed, I couldn't believe my eyes, with my IMMEDIATE reaction being "It's not level!"

Therefore, my conclusion is that although Neil says "I don't think I could ever get one as good as the one that I have just found on Shipsnostalgia....." I do think that he can certainly improve it's quality by rotating it slightly so the water isn't on a slope.

Andy
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: vnkiwi on February 22, 2013, 09:18:47 am
the photos perfect Neil.
better than anything I have taken
cheers
vnkiwi
 :-))
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Neil on February 22, 2013, 09:21:15 am
ok you lot. <*<

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, and in Neils eyes he is quite correct in his statement.
How can you tell him otherwise, you don't have his eyes.
Just because you think its not to your liking (or rules) doesn't make you right and Neil wrong.
You both could be right, both wrong, or beg to differ, doesn't change how Neil see's it.
I better grab ma hat, ma coat, and skeedadle under the door  :-))

cheers
vnkiwi %)

that is exactly the point I was making with my further comments Kiwi when others tried to tell me that I was talking through my assienda......thanks for your comments and support.
 
neil.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: vnkiwi on February 22, 2013, 09:27:45 am
Neil,
That's one brilliant photo.
I've not been able in 50 years of photography, mainly marine, to come close to that.
Had some real good ones but that beats any of mine.
cheers
vnkiwi
 :-))
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: ardarossan on February 22, 2013, 10:43:29 am
Neil and vnkiwi, Would you mind confirming that we are all looking at the same image please, because I'm starting to have some doubts?

Andy

(http://s20.postimage.org/rg1qybnd9/Neil_Photo.jpg)
Neil's 'perfect' photo? Really?
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Artistmike on February 22, 2013, 11:24:17 am


I would like to make the point that in pre-digital days a good photographer had access to a dark-room where some of the techniques that are used in photoshop could be carried out manually, cropping, altering exposures, colouring, using filters etc etc etc...... Not all great photos you see from pre-digital days are as they were taken straight out of the camera..... Digital procedures are often based on earlier non digital ones.....
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Martin (Admin) on February 22, 2013, 11:36:39 am
 
Very good point Mike!

 Even 'Snappysnaps' did some post production image processing with your 126 film!  ok2
 
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Bowwave on February 22, 2013, 03:37:19 pm

I would like to make the point that in pre-digital days a good photographer had access to a dark-room where some of the techniques that are used in photoshop could be carried out manually, cropping, altering exposures, colouring, using filters etc etc etc...... Not all great photos you see from pre-digital days are as they were taken straight out of the camera..... Digital procedures are often based on earlier non digital ones.....
I have to agree. Most of the post photo digital work carried out on a PC could be achieved in a dark room .I submitted contact prints, a selection was made and the rest was down to the work in the dark room. On occasions the editor would   include notes requesting this or that  photo, cropped, features highlighted, contrast adjusted.  It was a messy procedure  and the  bathroom was often  full of  prints drying off . 
Bowwave 
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: LarryW on February 22, 2013, 04:50:00 pm
 I like this one... :-))   larry
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Netleyned on February 22, 2013, 04:53:42 pm
Boat ain't vertical :D :D

Ned
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Neil on February 22, 2013, 04:58:21 pm
Neil and vnkiwi, Would you mind confirming that we are all looking at the same image please, because I'm starting to have some doubts?

Andy
(http://s20.postimage.org/rg1qybnd9/Neil_Photo.jpg)
Neil's 'perfect' photo? Really?

 
eeerrrr not quite andy..........but a gudun all the same {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: LarryW on February 22, 2013, 05:19:41 pm
 hi
 nice to meet a critic,  <*<
               try these  :-))
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Bryan Young on February 22, 2013, 05:54:56 pm
Photography….Oh dear. Another of those subjects that arise periodically. At least this one hasn’t as yet descended into veiled personal abuse!.
      Before the average person got a camera the main material was the use of the “Glass Plate”. No film. Half plate or Full plate. These were normally reproduced as contact prints….but just take a look at the sheer quality of these. I would refer you to eyeball the wonderful photos in the “Ships In Focus” journal for an object lesson in photography.
Then came the “Box Brownie” sort of camera. Two settings (sunny or cloudy). Click. Go to the local chemist and get the film processed.  Usually contact prints again. Lenses were crude to say the least, but the results gave pleasure to millions.
Along came 35mm cameras. High end or Low end….casual and personal picture taking became affordable. Then people began to fabricate their own darkrooms. Not cheap by any means. But still all in “Greyscale” (or black’n’white for us oldies). Bits of paper stuck on a stick would shield over-exposed bits. All very messy, hot and time consuming. And then cleaning up afterwards. But it was all we knew back then (1960s).
Buying packs of paper was always a trial. Kodak? Agfa? ….what contrast do you want? It was all a total education, and it took time to learn. The enlarger itself could be a real handful. If you weren’t careful it was easy to incinerate a negative such was the heat given out by the lamp.
I once taught a Chinese crew how to use the enlarger to project Gothic Script on to a white painted canvas so we could have a better than usual gangway screen. It worked, and saved a fortune.
But along came digital. No more messy darkrooms. Magic. Do it all “in the light”. But the old techniques still work even though they are all electronic.
An eye for the light, shadows, lampposts growing out of heads and that sort of thing. In general you may as well leave the camera on “Automatic” unless you want a bit of differential focus (Aperture setting).
The “eye” and composition will do the rest. Happy snapping! BY.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: yewgarth on February 22, 2013, 06:07:43 pm
I think it's just an average pic too if that helps?

Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Netleyned on February 22, 2013, 06:13:25 pm
I think it's just an average pic too if that helps?

Well said that man :-))

Ned
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Stavros on February 22, 2013, 06:49:25 pm
Oh interesting this so can someone explain to me therfore why there is need to edit and photoshop as every camera these days has a histogram and if you can not read it to define if the appeture is correct then it is time to hang up the camera...my pics never get editted as I used to use film and slide and mistakes were very costly.When you used to use film and slide you had to get everything right,so why cant you do it now.
 
 
Dave
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Bryan Young on February 22, 2013, 09:13:13 pm
Oh interesting this so can someone explain to me therfore why there is need to edit and photoshop as every camera these days has a histogram and if you can not read it to define if the appeture is correct then it is time to hang up the camera...my pics never get editted as I used to use film and slide and mistakes were very costly.When you used to use film and slide you had to get everything right,so why cant you do it now.
 
 
Dave
Because it's easier ...."click" and there's your masterpiece. Seemples. Or not.....BY.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Neil on February 22, 2013, 09:24:12 pm
I think it's just an average pic too if that helps?

if your comment helps you to come to terms with it, in anyway shape or form...........who am I to argue with it or you {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: RMH on February 22, 2013, 09:25:11 pm
I edit all my photos as I only shoot in RAW format which do need editing to be able to view them properly but the results are far better than capturing in JPEG. I also enjoy the process of editing to produce the result I want and not what the camera or one click software thinks I want. But hey, each to their own  :-)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on February 22, 2013, 11:12:10 pm
I edit all my photos as I only shoot in RAW format which do need editing to be able to view them properly but the results are far better than capturing in JPEG. I also enjoy the process of editing to produce the result I want and not what the camera or one click software thinks I want. But hey, each to their own  :-)

I knew it was only a matter of time before nude, AKA raw photos, would be discussed  :(( :(( :((
 
Hope moderators are following this thread and delate any RAW photos.  O0 O0 O0 %) %) %)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: irishcarguy on February 23, 2013, 08:00:50 pm
I agree that a lot was possible in the dark room but the negative still had to be good to get a good print. The point missed by most up to now is that when you shot with slide film & sent it away for processing ,what you got you got.Though I have seen attempts at slide manipulation most was awful. When teaching we insisted that the students used slide film because when the button was pressed the photography was done & we could see the mistakes & talk of ways to correct them next time. Slide film also had a lot less exposure latitude than print film so exposure was critical. Today with Photoshop & other forms of manipulation the sky is the limit. If honest one must admit the first question that comes to mind when we see a great picture was how did they manipulate it. Photo's are no longer accepted as evidence in court either. Mick B.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on February 23, 2013, 09:01:50 pm
 
" Photo's are no longer accepted as evidence in court either. Mick B. " Mick B.
 
That is a very relevant point, as well as, what you see in the photo may not be what was actually shot, but the final result.
Especially now that 'cut  & paste' to produce any result, is freely available to all.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: vnkiwi on February 24, 2013, 01:24:05 am
Bryan, very nicely put.
What you describe say's it all as so similar to my photographic path. Some glass plate negs have so much crisp clear detail that its unbelievable for such old equipment
Thanks for sharing
vnkiwi
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Artistmike on February 24, 2013, 06:40:51 am

That is a very relevant point, as well as, what you see in the photo may not be what was actually shot, but the final result.

Surely you're not suggesting some photos may not actually be real !

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8235/8471874310_cca90489e9_b.jpg)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Artistmike on February 24, 2013, 07:24:25 am
Some glass plate negs have so much crisp clear detail that its unbelievable for such old equipment
vnkiwi

There is a common assumption that new technology is better but in terms of photography that certainly isn't the case yet, direct transfer of light to the medium of film or glass plate preserves far more detail than commercially available digital cameras at the moment.

When I was in the army, doing some research that required some very exact detail in taking an image, we eventually resorted to a pin-hole type technique, as even a lens was causing too many aberrations to the final image.

Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: yewgarth on February 24, 2013, 08:03:30 am
Surely you're not suggesting some photos may not actually be real !


(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8235/8471874310_cca90489e9_b.jpg)

Huston we have a problem



Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: vnkiwi on February 24, 2013, 08:07:27 am
Hi ArtistMike,
Agree with you, modern technology is a lot easier to use as far as camera's go, ie point and shoot and still get disent exposure etc without even trying.
With glass plate, the operators skill was what counted, and having had the privilege to be allowed to scan some in my research, was amazed at the content captured, simply amazing, and so far better than modern digital has yet achieved, or what I achieved with my old Nikon F1.
cheers
vnkiwi
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Netleyned on February 24, 2013, 08:16:05 am
Our accident evidence and reporting pack used to include a polaroid camera as a court of enquiry would not accept any other photographic evidence

Ned
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Norseman on February 25, 2013, 11:58:05 pm
Neil finds the photo appealing so it is ....
I think the subject has the potential to be much improved ...
Someone else will simply hate it because it doesn't. Comply...
Mainly subjective responses

To be honest I don't think portraits have ever been better than the Monochrome images of the movie eras. It was an art form for the skilled artisan.

Dave
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: irishcarguy on February 26, 2013, 06:25:32 am
Photographs are very subjective, what is good to one person is poor to someone else. I once had an image rejected in a joint club entry for a national competition. I submitted the image as a private national member & the image & won 1st place,there were some shocked faces when the national results were shown at the club. It is still my favourite winning ribbon. Mick B.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Norseman on February 26, 2013, 04:06:43 pm
It is still my favourite ribbon
Mick in ribbons  :o .......... now that would be a classic O0

Dave
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: dave301bounty on February 26, 2013, 07:44:28 pm
did you have a good time dave .. :-X
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Norseman on February 26, 2013, 10:49:02 pm
Off topic so I''ll be brief
Prague was great and so cheap too. Planing to go again but in hotter weather.
Wonderful architecture and beer ....... and Slivovitch  O0

Dave
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Charlie on March 05, 2013, 10:37:06 pm
I think this one is rather good :-))
http://www.flickr.com/photos/26499880@N08/8528768307/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/26499880@N08/8528768307/)
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: irishcarguy on March 05, 2013, 10:53:31 pm
I agree with you Charlie, it has all the elements to make it good. Mick B.
Title: Re: PERFECTION IN PHOTOGRAPHY
Post by: Norseman on March 05, 2013, 10:54:22 pm
I wouldn't mind seeing a professional print of this

Was that a knock at the door?

Dave

Sorry wrong link - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1339132/Lighthouse-transformed-fairy-castle-encased-sparkling-ice.html