Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: pettyofficernick on February 19, 2013, 07:44:22 pm
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Just watching the above film, and it has just got to the point where the 'evil genius' has meddled with the ships computer control system, burnt out the engines at the click of a mouse, disabled the ships communication system and generally caused mayhem and uproar. Now, my question, to all practicing seafarers is 'Is it possible on a modern vessel equipped with these systems, to any extent, even allowing for movie exaggeration for someone to do this? Surely all these systems can be manually overided so the ship can operate conventionally if it has to.....
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Digressing to aircraft, the new Joint strike fighter which Australia is looking to buy is fully computerised and it was stated (ABC Four corners program) that should the software systems fail in combat, they have already failed in tests, then all control of the aircraft is lost.
No manual means to save the plane.????????????????????
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Just watching the above film, and it has just got to the point where the 'evil genius' has meddled with the ships computer control system, burnt out the engines at the click of a mouse, disabled the ships communication system and generally caused mayhem and uproar. Now, my question, to all practicing seafarers is 'Is it possible on a modern vessel equipped with these systems, to any extent, even allowing for movie exaggeration for someone to do this? Surely all these systems can be manually overided so the ship can operate conventionally if it has to.....
C'mon Nick, you know better than that. Nobody is going to be responsible for doing something that isn't their job, and the only other option is to report the various faults and hope to get them fixed in timme. However, as they will have to be authorised, before being processed and raised with the relevant contractors. The contractor won't commit until they have surveyed the perceived faulty system and produced a full evaluation, which will then need to be approved by the employer, and confirmed with a job order. This will require a scheme opf works with all appropriate standards noted, and that's before we include penalty clauses and the other small print. Then there's the quotation itself, scheduling, budgeting, sub-contractors, insurances, health and safety, blah, blah, etc...
It would be easier to give the ship away, and let the evil genius sort it out!
Andy
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C'mon Nick, you know better than that. Nobody is going to be responsible for doing something that isn't their job, and the only other option is to report the various faults and hope to get them fixed in timme. However, as they will have to be authorised, before being processed and raised with the relevant contractors. The contractor won't commit until they have surveyed the perceived faulty system and produced a full evaluation, which will then need to be approved by the employer, and confirmed with a job order. This will require a scheme opf works with all appropriate standards noted, and that's before we include penalty clauses and the other small print. Then there's the quotation itself, scheduling, budgeting, sub-contractors, insurances, health and safety, blah, blah, etc...
It would be easier to give the ship away, and let the evil genius sort it out!
Andy
Indeed but they must have a backup system, emergency stop button or whatever, and a diesel engine of any sort can be disabled ans stopped without electricity, like damaging the fuel system for instance. or the emergency steering position, or don't they have those anymore? As Raaaty says, the JSF has no manual backup system, its just 'fatal exception Error'...plummet.......
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Just to extend to another winged system, When the Argentineans attacked with Exocet, it was stated that the only method of stopping it was to chuck vast amounts of metal at it (Phalinx/Goalkeeper).
I often wondered if the French had been attacked with its "Own" missile the answer would have been the same?
Can't imagine any systems manufacturer wouldn't build a failsafe into their product.
Regards Ian.
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Speaking of the JSF's computers, the reason that the aircraft can't fly without computers is that modern fighter aircraft are't aerodynamic anymore. In the case of the Eurofighter Typhoon, the computers "twitch" the foreplanes hundreds of times a second to compensate for the lack of aerodynamics. If the computers fail in the air then the aircraft is unflyable and unrecoverable.
Andrew
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Back to boats, specifically tugs. ASD tugs are controlled by micro processors but do have emergency override controls by buttons. These are to satisfy elf and saferty peeps and classification societies. Being an awkward sod, in addition to testing in port prior to departure I have used them at sea to test the practicalities of the controls. It takes at least two people to operate on a boat with the minimum safe manning crew of 5. I found it was impossible to steer with in calm weather. In an ocean swell ........... . I have also hand steered an ASD tug from the Sunda Strait to Capetown due to auto pilot failure. It is tough, very tough but doable. A 3 day passage from Bilbao to Dublin in a Voith Schneider tug with no autopilot and a purely mechanical system was hell and I would never do it again. It's similar you flying a helo, you can't let go. They have no directional stability (that's why they're so manoeverable) and therefore a nightmare in a seaway. Modern marine engines now all have electronic fuel pumps and governers due to the need for economy and anti pollution legislation. If these fail you can't drive em with a bit of string anymore. Unmanned machinery spaces require a massive alarm and auto control and shutdown system. Great in harbour working but no goodin ocean condition. We rapidly run out of men. It takes 70 days to steam a tug across the Pacific. With everything working and 5 crew it's tough. You have to be there when the electronics act up and your only backup is a satC set. I shudder just thinking about it.
Jerry.
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Speaking of the JSF's computers, the reason that the aircraft can't fly without computers is that modern fighter aircraft are't aerodynamic anymore. In the case of the Eurofighter Typhoon, the computers "twitch" the foreplanes hundreds of times a second to compensate for the lack of aerodynamics. If the computers fail in the air then the aircraft is unflyable and unrecoverable.
Andrew
Sorry, if they were not aerodynamic they wouldn't fly at all, a brick isn't aerodynamic. Modern fighters are designed to be aerodynamically unstable for fast manoeuvre response so the pilot interferes with a balanced platform, not the same as unaerodynamic. Now a missile is a different case.
Regards Ian
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Speed 2 film: I suppose it's "technically" possible but many things are possible on paper... technically!
If I remember that particularly awful film correctly, isn't that the one where they hand crank the bow thruster and turn the whole speeding ship?!?!?!?!
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That's the one, highly unfeasible indeed, they also opened 'ballast' doors and started flooding habitable compartments to slow the ship down......
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what gets me with this type of film is.............
WHY NOT JUST SWITCH OFF THE IGNITION!!!!!! :P :P :P
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what gets me with this type of film is.............
WHY NOT JUST SWITCH OFF THE IGNITION!!!!!! :P :P :P
or disconnect the fuel lines...
Another on is snakes on a plane
Quick fix for that movie is to set the aircon to "well chilled" and wait
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what gets me with this type of film is.............
WHY NOT JUST SWITCH OFF THE IGNITION!!!!!! :P :P :P
That's the trouble with keyless ignition - you can't.
The problem with most of these is that you can't just suspend your disbelief; you have to unplug it entirely.
On the bow thruster note how about the remade Poseidon Adventure? Not sure if that was just bonkers or a major continuity error. By contrast the original PA was/is actually quite believable I think.
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The problem with most of these is that you can't just suspend your disbelief; you have to unplug it entirely....
On the bow thruster note how about the remade Poseidon Adventure? Not sure if that was just bonkers or a major continuity error. By contrast the original PA was/is actually quite believable I think.
These inferior 'action' movies are aimed at the most gullible audiences, and as long as the audiences don't appreciate that they are gullible, Hollywood will continue to cash in.
It's a 'Catch 22' situation though, whilst the word and definition for the word 'Gullible' continues to be excluded from every dictionary, the gullible won't learn, and will keep falling for the con.
Andy
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Sorry, if they were not aerodynamic they wouldn't fly at all, a brick isn't aerodynamic. Modern fighters are designed to be aerodynamically unstable for fast manoeuvre response so the pilot interferes with a balanced platform, not the same as unaerodynamic. Now a missile is a different case.
An aircraft doesn't need to be aerodynamic to fly, (just look at an F4, a classic example of 'you can make a house brick fly if you stick big enough engines on it'), but it does help with acceleration, top speed, and fuel economy.
Modern fbw fighter aircraft are designed to be 'mildly' unstable about the pitch axis for various reasons that include agility and fuel economy.
Someone mentioned previously about the Typhoon - pulease, get your facts correct before spouting garbage!
Getting back to the OP;
Yes, there's no 'mechanical' backup mode, due to there being no mechanical connection between stick and control surface. However, there are 3 or 4 layers of redundancy built into the control system to allow for multiple failure modes, the lowest one being an emergency hydraulic system and a direct electric link between stick and control surface, (this is as 'manual' as you can get).
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But getting back to the original title of this thread Speed 2 - Cruise control, I question why it would be watched in the first place? Martin was being generous to a fault when describing it as awful.
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There was nowt else on, and I was only half watching it anyway.......
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Nowt else on??? Dont they do that test card thing these days?
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Nowt else on??? Dont they do that test card thing these days?
Now you come to mention it, I don't think they do, not seen it for years.....
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no they put speed 2 cruise control on instead.
Grendel
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That's the trouble with keyless ignition - you can't.
I seem to recall HAL being threatened with a reprogram job involving a fire axe. That seemed to work OK.
Anyway, in all these films involving a super-villain with an unlikely headquarters, what I want to know is, what built the thing? I mean, how did the job get advertised in the job centre?
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I take back all I said about how bad Speed 2 is. I have just lost two hours of my life that I will never back watching Battleships. A so called friend told me it wasnt too bad at all really.
He lied.
Words fail me that I actually watched it to the end.
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I take back all I said about how bad Speed 2 is. I have just lost two hours of my life that I will never back watching Battleships. A so called friend told me it wasnt too bad at all really.
He lied.
Words fail me that I actually watched it to the end.
Perhaps he had been watching Mega Shark vs Giant Octopus. Anything would be good OK not quite terrible after that.
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I saw the first part of that - until the wife switched over, the only redeeming feature was it had boats in it.
Grendel
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On boats that are computerised the fuel flow etc is all done electroncally, however, there is a manual fuel shut off, also you just need to pull the fuses out to kill the system :) I read that on some ships if the RPM increases into the red zone for 5 mins then a manual trigger shuts off the fuel feed, starves the engine.
Si:)