Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Engineering Techniques and Materials. => Topic started by: derekwarner on April 29, 2013, 03:00:55 am
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dmw_boatboy or mermod ....why not open a new thread on home use style laser cutters ....could be appreciated by many...... :-)) Derek
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This new thread has been started up on general request, to inform us all about Laser Cutters and their use in Model boat construction.
Various posts sprinkled around the site have been collated over to here, so as to keep them all under one subject title and easy to reference.
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Hi all
Right just a picture and small amount of details to start with but any questions ask away.
My machine is a Lotus LL10060 Bench top Co2 laser.It has a bed size of 100cm X 60cm which can be raised and lowered to suit the material your cutting.It is most suited to cutting but will also engrave very well. To remove the harmful fumes from the machine during cutting it is linked to a large 4 stage filter unit
It will cut any natural material and will notcut metals.
One demonstration i was show was it engraving on a lasagnia sheet!
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Where does the cutting take place and what does it look like.
What are the maximum material sizes that can be handled, surface size and thickness.
Does the CO2 relate to gas feeding to the laser rather than it beng the Ruby Red light lasers.
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Hi if you mean where is it set up that would be my converted garage but i think you mean the cutting bed
it is the blue flap with the handle in previouse picture. i will attach a picture of inside the lid.
Thicknesses can vary depending on what laser tube you have idea thickness is up to 3mm.
As i have the 30watt 6mm is really its limit where as the 80watt version can cut thicker.
One downside with cutting thicker material on a laser is when you set the laser it is set about 7mm from the material being cut where the laser beam is at its smallest point. once it hits the material the beam starts to widen and can become very unstrait.
The Co2 refers to the gas in the laser tube casing. The red light you see on laser cutters is not actualy the laser it is just a guide light the laser gives of a very bright white light which should not be looked at
ideally.
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Thank you that clarifies and answers my questions.
If you are familiar with 'old' measurements, the max thickness is about 1/4inch plywood, or similar.
At maximum depth, is the cutting line under cut from the top, or does the cutting 'beam' just get wider the deeper the cut.
Am thinking of a cone shaped beam, if I am understanding how it works.
Is there a lot of cleaning up of residue required in comparison, such as when cutting wood, sawdust, dust etc has to be cleaned up afterwards.
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This was a small creation i cut and engraved on the machine last summer.
It was used in a documentary to explain how a canal lock works.
It was all cut from clear 2mm and 3mm acrylic fitted with working gates and winding gear and took 80 litres
of water to fill it.
Some people might recognize the man next to me.
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Some people might recognize the man next to me.
The guy on the right looks like Dick Van Dyke :}
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RAAArtyGunner (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9239)Yes 1/4 inch is probably the max for good quality.
The laser passes throught several lenses which get focused to the top of the material
And yes your understanding the gap gets wider at the bottom.
you dont notice it upto about 3mm but as it gets thicker it cabn be noticed more.
With regards to cleaning you dont get must dust but the filtration system takes any away.
You do get a build up of the burnt glue and resin from the wood on the cutting bars which i just sit in bucket overnight once they get messy wipe off in the morning and off it goes.
You also need to clean the lense once a week with special flued that eats off and build ups.
With the exstraction on machines like this you have got two options 1 being internal filtration like i have
downside being the set of 4 replacement filters is around £800 and can be as often a every 6 months.
or you can have exstract to atmosfear down side being chimney vent has to be above roof hight and in some casses requires planing consent.
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having now seen boatboys setup I think I will have a tidy up before posting photos of mine :D
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having now seen boatboys setup I think I will have a tidy up before posting photos of mine :D
I spent most of the day doing that {-) you should of seen it before.
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having now seen boatboys setup I think I will have a tidy up before posting photos of mine :D
Aha, I see that Neils influence extends far and wide O0 {-) {-) {-)
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I notice many model boaters have embraced the modern WIFIF methodology when organizing their workshops
WIFIF = Where It Falls It's Filed
I believe Neil was one of the founding fathers of this system
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My baby is an Epilog Helix 50watt with a 610mm x 457mm bed. being 50 watt I can cut up to 25mm acrylic but can set it fine enough to engrave paper, I do get a tiny ammount of undercut when I go thicker than 15mm but nothing to really worry about.
I don't filter my exhaust I just run th vent over the roof which puts it high enough to not bothr the neighbors.
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I have cut 10mm acrylic on mine but its not to greatest finish but all the machines have there ups and downs.
i was kindly give a pile of red 6mm perspex yesterday so i will have a play around and see what results i get.
With the filtering i suppose its easyer down there as more space were as my my garage in joined to my
neighbours house so i dont think they would be to happy.
As it is ive sound proofed all the walls so they dont here the machine running.
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Next question how does it cut,
Set up, speed of work, etc
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All machines are slightly diffrent but with regards to mine.
1 import my cad files to laser cutting program in my case LL cut
2 arrange conponents to use least amount of material.
3 color cutting or engraving line to diffrent colors which refer to diffrent speeds and power settings
4 set line order to save on machine time
5 Place material required onto cutting bed
6 Move cutting head to centre of material and ajust lense hight to required hight
7 turn of filtration unit
8 the motion, laser, and compressor
9 press the cut but stand back and let it do its thing.
10 turn compressor, laser and motion of then filter.
11 remove cut items from machine bed.
These are the basic set up and close down jobs you do.
every week you have to clean laser lense with optic cleaner and if cutting say plywood
where the glue leaves residue on the machine bars you need to remove and clean.
Hope that answer your question
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dmw....when you mention CAD files...are these exclusively .dwg file extensions or are .dfx files acceptable?.....Derek
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For the software i use they need to be dxf files.
A lot of people use corel draw but I profer auto can as thats what i was trained on when i work
in londan as an architectural model maker.
Advise if any1 is getting laser cutting done.
when doing your drawings erase any duplicate lines to save it double running which can course
burning on that line.
Also try and join as many lines together for example if you have drawn a square in 4 seperate line that will all need cutting join then together as it reduces cutting time which in turn reduces costs.
And example i had when i first got my machine my drawing i had done was all seperate lines put itinto the machine it took 45mins to cut! so i went a join the lines together where i could the same panel
took 6mins to cut the second time!
Thats a instant saving and also the less work a company has to do adjusting the drawings the more you will save as you will get charged for things like that.
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On the laser I use, it will take PLT/DXF/BMP/AI and others, if you have CorelDraw you can export directly from CD to the laser.
We have a 40w LS6840 running with a bloody great extractor.
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On the laser I use, it will take PLT/DXF/BMP/AI and others, if you have CorelDraw you can export directly from CD to the laser.
We have a 40w LS6840 running with a 'blinking!' great extractor.
Yes mine will use those files but profer dxf for cutting but when doing engraving jobs i use bmp's
Few months back i engraved a 50cmX50cm sheet of acrylic which with an artists design it looked amazing
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.... but when doing engraving jobs i use bmp's
I haven't tried using bitmaps for engraving yet, just vector, (ai to .dxf via solidworks). I've thought about using an old 'half-tone' image as a bitmap to see how that comes out though {:-{
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Ill have a look tomorrow and see if i have anyimages of engraved items ive done also ill try the red perspex i was given.
i have engraved on a slate tile which looked really good to
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Do you find that different colour Acrylics require different power/speed settings??
I cut some for a guy at work, in dark(ish) green and red, and a pale blue, all 3mm, and they all used different settings {:-{
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RAAArtyGunner (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=9239)Yes 1/4 inch is probably the max for good quality.
The laser passes throught several lenses which get focused to the top of the material
And yes your understanding the gap gets wider at the bottom.
you dont notice it upto about 3mm but as it gets thicker it cabn be noticed more.
downside being the set of 4 replacement filters is around £800 and can be as often a every 6 months.
or you can have exstract to atmosfear down side being chimney vent has to be above roof hight and in some casses requires planing consent.
With regards to Kerf Taper -
On lower powered machines (working within their limits) - if you set focal height to mid point on the material you will get a more parallel Kerf rather that setting focal (Z) height to top. Beam will always take an hour glass pattern just depends on quality of optics, power available and depth of cut ...
Regards the component prices yep ... its an expensive game ... This winter i went through three tubes over two jobs ... and mine is a lot higher powered :(
Regards,
Kim
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dmw....when you mention CAD files...are these exclusively .dwg file extensions or are .dfx files acceptable?.....Derek
Hi Derek,
A lot depends on what the operator is willing to do and the facilities they have to convert files.
Dxf / Dwg have been industry standard, but cheaper cad & an unwillingness to allow cross over has created its own set of problems for newcomers to this field.
Regards,
Kim
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I use Coreldraw but only because the epilogs seem to be geared more towards it, I can import most files into corel so its just easyer.
Hey Kim you mention going through a lot of tubes, is yours the glass type with the watercooling system?
Any way, after a couple days cleaning I can now get a clear photo of my baby, here she is
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Phillip_Sachman/DSCF1222_zps58d310f9.jpg) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/Phillip_Sachman/media/DSCF1222_zps58d310f9.jpg.html)
Thought it might be a good time to do a service so I will put some photos up with all the covers off.
Phill
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Here she is semi naked!
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Phillip_Sachman/DSCF1205_zps1e8038cd.jpg) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/Phillip_Sachman/media/DSCF1205_zps1e8038cd.jpg.html)
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This shot shows where the laser exits the back of the machine (the orange bit) then travels through that hole and hits the next set of mirrors on the left of the photo.
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Phillip_Sachman/DSCF1215_zps9d0d4c6d.jpg) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/Phillip_Sachman/media/DSCF1215_zps9d0d4c6d.jpg.html)
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And heres the final set of mirrors that buzz around inside on the gantry, theese final ones need the most regular cleaning as they are closest to the smoke and fumes.
(http://i1357.photobucket.com/albums/q760/Phillip_Sachman/DSCF1219_zps2fcacc10.jpg) (http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/Phillip_Sachman/media/DSCF1219_zps2fcacc10.jpg.html)
Also shows the air assist nozzle (to reduce burning) and the auto focus plunger, so the table lifts automaticaly till it touches the plunger, there is also a manual focus jig for small or difficult pieces.
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I was told when buying my machine that it was also more geared around corel draw but it works fine just importing autocad dxf's.
Kim i will give that a go today see how it gets on.
CF-FZG im not sure with regards to the plastic but i might be something to do with the way the coloring distorts the laser beam.
Ouch 2 tubes what was you cutting? For my machine that £8000 a shot but its ment to last 8-10 years
Mermod the cutting head on your look much diffrent but mine is a manual head adjust with the air coming through the same nozzel ill take some picture later.
How do you clean your mirrors on the machine i have not cleaned them as it gets done when seviced.
Just remembered i need to ptfe spray the runners on machine.
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From what I understand there are two basic types of tubes, metal or glass, the metal ones seem to quote a lifespan of anything from 4 to 8 years depending on usage and quality of the seal on the tube and are quite expensive ( I think about 5000 aud for mine)
The glass tube based machines seem to be chineese made and are a fraction of the price and also offer much much bigger bed sizes but can burn through tubes pretty quickly ( I was quoted 1000 hours by one agent) plus they require a water chiller cooling system.
I nearly went with one of the glass tube machines but could get no guarantees on tube life and the seller offered to throw in a few extra tubes to sweeten the deal (and the bed size was 1200 x 800), in the end the epilog was 3 times the price for a smaller bed but with a 3 year gurantee on all parts including the tube and two days onsite training, since then the only issue I have had was my own fault, I killed the y axis motor (don't ask me how) anyway the company replaced it under warranty in three days and even sent a new motherboard at the samr time just incase ( was sent back when found not to be needed)
I knew I had made the right choice when the agent for the glass tube machine rang me and got really nasty when I informed him of my decision ( yes I was tactful)
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that makes sence mermod.
A friend of mine brought one of ebay saying are you payed so much for your machine and i got mine for £4000 it arrived no instructions no set up details could not get the software to work and the price didnt include and filtration. in the end he had to call out a uk company to come set it up and make good and
he still isnt best pleased with it .
I went and had several meetings with the companey i brought mine from and they showed me round there warehouse and them building the machines onsite.
The main machine frame does come from china they then take it apart and rebuild it fitting all the highest quality parts.
I got the best suited filter to my purpose they delivered set it all up.
They say the lenses can get knocked in transport so they do all the checks then me the wife and my brother all had training on it untill we were happy.
And was told at any point if we would like more training just pop down to there factor.
I had several question which i just rang them and they talked me through over the phone.
I Did get a phone call from the to check the code number of a parts which had be recalled so they came
and replaced it.
I think the moral is you get what you pay for and the valuable after sevice care is more than worth paying the extra for.
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Thats very interesting boatboy, I rang a company in Melbourne about centrifugal casting machines and got chatting to the owner, turns out he had bought one of the glass tube jobbies with the big specs and huge tables, turns out it was still sitting in the corner of his warehouse because no one could get it to run and the suppliers were no help at all.
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Thats the trouble if your not sure how it works and no aftersales care.
They are happy to give you all the jargon take your money the O its broken its your problem now see you later never to be herd from again.
Another chap broght a A3 cnc of there aswell and had trouble getting it to run but got it fixed now and thats ideal size for alot of hobby modellers that use styrene a lot ans you dont need filters for those.
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This certainly seems the way forward for model boat building - especially for modern, steel ships.
Having had a set of styrene sheets cut for our pre-prototype ferry kit, I have to say I am very impressed (and so is my 'old man' who is doing the actual building!!).
We have learnt a lot in the process: how material thickness can affect the cut quality, positioning and size of parts next to each other and how the cutting of one part affects an adjacent part....
I am a technical draughtsman by trade, so doing the drawing work is no problem, but talking to the guys who actually use the machines is time in the bank for me!!! Their advice is priceless.........
I can see that laser cut styrene sheets will become the norm in commercial kits very soon......
Carl 8)
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In defense of the Chinese laser cutters, I appreciate that some suppliers are a complete waste of time, (check out comments on the CNC/Laser forums). As has been said, they take your money and deliver the box, then it's up to you <*< I'd like to offer a recomendation.
We bought our LS6840 from HPC Laser, they're up in Yorkshie, but don't hold it against them, very professional, the machine was delivered, (after checking the door size and steps in the way before turning up), he set the machine up, instructing me along the way on things that need checking as part of the maintenance regimen, followed by an intensive couple of hours on how to install and configure the software, how to setup and adjust the hardware, and finally how the different operating modes affect the material. Anything extra, and they've been at the end of a telephone, plus their own forum, to provide help.
overall - :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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This certainly seems the way forward for model boat building - especially for modern, steel ships.
Having had a set of styrene sheets cut for our pre-prototype ferry kit, I have to say I am very impressed (and so is my 'old man' who is doing the actual building!!).
We have learnt a lot in the process: how material thickness can affect the cut quality, positioning and size of parts next to each other and how the cutting of one part affects an adjacent part....
I am a technical draughtsman by trade, so doing the drawing work is no problem, but talking to the guys who actually use the machines is time in the bank for me!!! Their advice is priceless.........
I can see that laser cut styrene sheets will become the norm in commercial kits very soon......
Carl 8)
I would be interested to no what laser they use for your kit as i have always been told you should not cut styrene on a laser cutter as it will damage the laser.
In defense of the Chinese laser cutters, I appreciate that some suppliers are a complete waste of time, (check out comments on the CNC/Laser forums). As has been said, they take your money and deliver the box, then it's up to you <*< I'd like to offer a recomendation.
We bought our LS6840 from HPC Laser, they're up in Yorkshie, but don't hold it against them, very professional, the machine was delivered, (after checking the door size and steps in the way before turning up), he set the machine up, instructing me along the way on things that need checking as part of the maintenance regimen, followed by an intensive couple of hours on how to install and configure the software, how to setup and adjust the hardware, and finally how the different operating modes affect the material. Anything extra, and they've been at the end of a telephone, plus their own forum, to provide help.
overall - :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Im sure the chinese machines are fine when they are built in factory but once shipped over to say the uk they have been knocked about and really need setting up by some1 who knows what they are doing.
Like the place your machine came from and they install and set it up thats great but the chinese companeys are not going to send some1 to help you or instruct you. or say how toxic the fumes are if not exstracted.
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There was a shop locally that lost it's EPILOG, and purchased a "chinese" laser cutter as a replacement.
It worked great, as described. In the first week the the biggest issue was that it took any "inch" file, and
read it as centimeters. Most people were able to work around that.
However, in that first week, people cutting thicker stock were noticing a "bevel".
The shop foreman took a two inch piece of perspex and cut a circle. The result was
an odd cone, about a 3mm smaller at the one edge. It took him another week to tweek the
mirrors, and shim the laser bed to get it to cut "straight".
Just an FYI, for those considering the cheaper generic laser cutters.
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I would be interested to no what laser they use for your kit as i have always been told you should not cut styrene on a laser cutter as it will damage the laser.
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I will find out what machine he uses.
It took me a while to find someone who was willing to do it - in point of fact, most gave the excuse that the fumes given off by the styrene was what was stopping them from lasering it. No-one mentioned damage to the laser itself.
How would it damage the laser - I thought the actual laser was remote from the job at hand and it was only the beam itself, via mirrors, that came into 'contact' with the styrene?
Carl
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Cutting styrene was okay, but PVC, Vinyl, ABS and other materials will release a clorine gas and
other vapors that will etch the mirrors and cause corrosion in the bearings and other metal parts of the machine.
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From what i was told when i brought the machine its not as such the laser it damages it melts the styrene almost to jelly which then sticks to the final lense in the cutting head and can damage it which is expensive to replace.
Also the fumes are bad and i suppose may block internal filtration units quicker but might be ok on extraction to outside.
It may just be storys but with the cost of the machine i dont fancy trying it just yet.
I was lloking at your kit which looks great by the way but what made you choose styrene over wood ?
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Cutting styrene was okay, but PVC, Vinyl, ABS and other materials will release a clorine gas and
other vapors that will etch the mirrors and cause corrosion in the bearings and other metal parts of the machine.
Ok that is very Interesting to no many thanks.
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I can't be sure, but be sure to check other forums and cross referance.
We were allowed to cut styrene. But there was a list of banned materials.
I know for sure that PVC and Vinyl were two of them. The off gassing was
Chlorine gas, or Cyanide gas, from things like PVC, and Polycarbonate.
Both gas may not be cleared using your indoor filters, and are certainly deadly.
If you are unsure of about what you are cutting, don't cut it.
I know of one other machine that was killed within a year, because the
shop thought they had an approved plastic.
[edit]
Here we go...
http://atxhs.org/wiki/Laser_Cutter_Materials
:o
There may be confusion between polystyrene foam and sheet styrene plastic.
I know many shops that cut foam core or Gator board. the foam is a Polystyene sandwiched
between paper or plastic. Other than a huge undercut, melting foam, the foam core cuts okay.
The shop I used did have a fire in the Epilog, caused by someone cutting cardboard.
They had walked away from the machine and "let it do it's thing".
I have seen balsa wood catch an ember, and seen that ember burn across the board fueled
by the exhaust fan, while the laser cut elsewhere on the pattern.
We were told after the fire, by no means leave the machine unattended.
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I was lloking at your kit which looks great by the way but what made you choose styrene over wood ?
Thanks for the compliment :-))
I chose styrene over wood mainly because the prototype ships (car ferries) are steel construction which styrene replicates well without too much preparation as opposed to wood. Secondly, whilst some of our 'more mature' modellers are comfortable working with wood, younger practitioners are more used to working with plastic, and I am hoping to reach a wide audience with these kits.
Carl
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Your welcome
I am currently in the final stages of my model narrowboat kit just trying to sort instructions out (nightmare)
I was the opersite I chose plywoods as i found them better suited to my kit also as i can cut all the main parts myself and im only 25 but i profer working with wood still.
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Im sure the chinese machines are fine when they are built in factory but once shipped over to say the uk they have been knocked about and really need setting up by some1 who knows what they are doing.
You missed my point - I inferred I wouldn't buy from china, there's no comeback at all.
That's why we bought from a UK company - they know how to set them up, and can show the purchaser how to do it too, and they give a warranty. :-))
As to cutting styrene, horrible stuff to cut and get a good edge to it - that's why we use acrylic.
The other material not to cut is polycarbonate, same reasons as PVC etc. We did cut some thin pc, (0.375mm), and it took nearly 6 months for the stink to go away :embarrassed: now we outsource the laser cutting of pc ok2
As to the vertical cut tapering that we all have a problem with on thicker materials - unless you have a minimum of 3 focusing lenses at the head the beam will always be hourglass shaped.
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I did get your point i was just trying to be diplomatic about there machines %) .
Like i had said previously its worth paying more to get the after sales and support.
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I did get your point i was just trying to be diplomatic about there machines %) .
Like i had said previously its worth paying more to get the after sales and support.
sorry, I edited as you were replying.
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No worrys :-))
I will stay with my previouse thoughts and steer clear of styrene.
And like you ill find some1 else to do it if i need any cutting.
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You missed my point - I inferred I wouldn't buy from china, there's no comeback at all.
That's why we bought from a UK company - they know how to set them up, and can show the purchaser how to do it too, and they give a warranty. :-))
As to cutting styrene, horrible stuff to cut and get a good edge to it - that's why we use acrylic.
The other material not to cut is polycarbonate, same reasons as PVC etc. We did cut some thin pc, (0.375mm), and it took nearly 6 months for the stink to go away :embarrassed: now we outsource the laser cutting of pc ok2
As to the vertical cut tapering that we all have a problem with on thicker materials - unless you have a minimum of 3 focusing lenses at the head the beam will always be hourglass shaped.
Strange you should say that, all the parts we had cut for us had lovely edges - certainly nothing a gentle swipe with a fine piece of sand paper wouldnt put right.....and you would need to do that anyway with the old fashioned method of cutting the part with a knife. I agree, the thicker the styrene the less neat the edge...but seeing as the max thickness in our kits is 2mm, they didnt come out so bad.
Would LOVE to have used acrylic.....but cost wise, just not on!!! 6 x the price of styrene. I dont think the average boat kit buying modeller would agree to a hike in kit price just because we used acrylic.....
Does cut lovely mind!!!!
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I find that when cutting styrene It's a very fine balancing act between power, speed and frequency to get a nice cut, If I'm cutting 1.5mm or less I ususally do 2 or 3 low power high speed passes so as not to build up to much heat.
Phill
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For anyone trying to convince their wives they need a laser one of the first jobs I did was to cut 400 squares of material for one of my wifes projects.
No distortion of the material from using a roller cutter and all done in about 1/2 and hour!
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I think CNC routers offer better value and versatility for the vast majority of modelmakers, as you can cut pretty much any material, and are easier to set-up and service a home.
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Could we have some comparison info/pics or alternatively a thread on the subject. O0 O0 :-)) :-))
The toxicity of some materials when using a 'laser' is of concern. O0 O0
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mmmmm circa..... 2007 a Paddleducks member did some pretty impressive work on a home built CNC laminate trimmer table .....Derek
http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2673.msg25756#msg25756 (http://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2673.msg25756#msg25756)
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For me personally I have more have allergy issues with the dust created by cnc routers, I recently set up a CNC Shark pro and the noise was unbearable (laminate trimmer type) also I have alot of shapes to cut that have square internal corners.
Also there is no need for clamping the material down with the laser which is great for small pieces of work.
As to the toxicity, I get no smell inside the actual workshop and I stick to cutting well known materials such as timber, MDF, plywood, acrylic and styrene.
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Kerf is the main sang with routing as opposed to laser cutting or waterjet. A bit of work with a set of needle files is sufficient to deal with most issues.
Noise is dependant on cutting speed.
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Ever turned a laminate trimmer on and left it running in your workshop for 8 or so hours ?
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Aha, I see that Neils influence extends far and wide O0 {-) {-) {-)
you nearly got away with that comment Raaarty..........don't normally come to threads like this as they baffle me..............but I'm still waiting for offers from members to tidy up for me %% %% %% %% %% %%
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you nearly got away with that comment Raaarty..........don't normally come to threads like this as they baffle me..............but I'm still waiting for offers from members to tidy up for me %% %% %% %% %% %%
See, I knew it, they see him here, they see him there, they see him everywhere.
Well done. {-) {-) {-) {-)
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Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I was wondering if you guys can cut carbon fibre sheet on you machines?
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Waterjet would do it, but I don't think you'll succesfuly laser carbon fibre composite.