Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Glue etc. => Topic started by: steviejay0 on June 22, 2013, 12:37:34 am

Title: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: steviejay0 on June 22, 2013, 12:37:34 am
Hi everyone,
another newbie question I`m afraid.
I`m just starting a boat build from a plan of the Veron River Police Launch and I am just wondering what is the best glue to use ?
Ive been an aeromodeller for many years now and have got a few glues already.
I`ve got Cyano (thick / thin), Aliphatic, 5 min Epoxy and Evo Stik weatherproof PVA wood glue.
Are any/all of these suitable for  :} boat building ?
This is my first attempt at this, so I dont want it falling apart in the water !!
I`ve always fancied building a boat properly as opposed to just buying one ready made, although there are some lovely boats out there.
I also have a plan set for the Sea Queen as another future project if this one goes ok.
Cheers chaps,
steviejay0
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: kmmbcwebmaster on June 22, 2013, 06:56:20 am
Yes they are suitable for boats  :-))
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: derekwarner on June 22, 2013, 08:24:29 am
steviejay0...use the search facility here on Mayhem..........there must be a thousands words posted in threads on the subject
....... :o  some prefer some or each of the types you nominate....others have alternate preferences.......spend a few hours reviewing the thoughts of others experience........
 
Derek
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: roycv on June 22, 2013, 08:38:21 am
Hi Stevie, nice plan to start with.  Ply and balsa work well and PVA glues are good as well.  You are going to cover them with varnish or paint so they will be waterproofed.
Re building the Police launch, if I remember correctly the cabin floor and the skinning of the lower hull form a sealed volume, I would avoid that, either by having a section of the floor lift up or not having the floor continuous from stem to stern.  If you get a leak in the skinning you will have to dig up the floor to deal with it.
So also make sure you varnish the insides of the hull skin.
I often look at the plans with the intention of building then something else catches my eye.
good luck,
Roy
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: rickles23 on June 22, 2013, 08:45:48 am
Hi,
 
I have always used Aquadhere Exterior!
 
Regards
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Robin smith on June 22, 2013, 09:52:25 am
All of these are ok, I use cyano for tacking and holding.Regards Robin
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Circlip on June 22, 2013, 10:05:07 am
Cascomite, forget the cyano's
 
  Regards  Ian.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: pettyofficernick on June 22, 2013, 10:19:20 am
Polyurethane adhesive is also very good, moisture activated and gap filling, it foams as it is curing and sticks like the proverbial to a blanket.
http://www.modelboatbits.com/shop/article_MBB-MBPUR/MODELBOND-PUR-%28-250-ML-%29.html?sessid=4Vvq9HpcIWZPYMVLPyw440OU1eee2ooHd2rbIKbAUWQNWVY1fGgcF43uRChOlQnm&shop_param=cid%3D21%26aid%3DMBB-MBPUR%26
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: steviejay0 on June 22, 2013, 10:22:59 am
Thanks for all your replies everyone.
At least I can use the glues that I already have and wont have to buy any specially.
I like the idea that roycv said about having a removable section of flooring to access the inner hull to check for leakage.
I know I have quite a way to go yet, but where on this boat would be the best place to put the receiver ?
I`m going to use Spektrum 2.4 Ghz cos I already have a good supply of these bits. I was thinking of using an AR500 receiver as it has one of the aerials on the end of a cable, which would enable it to be run up the inside of a mast, thus being a bit higher. I was thinking of mounting it up under the cabin roof or in the cabin dashboard. Is this a good idea or would one of the cheap Orange receivers be okay? I have both.
Regards,
Steve
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: pettyofficernick on June 22, 2013, 10:27:44 am
If you are using 2.4 gig, have the receiver as far above the waterline as possible. 2.4 does not like traveling through water...
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: steviejay0 on June 22, 2013, 10:30:51 am
Thanks pettyofficernick, I`m not sure but is that the same glue as the stuff called "Gorilla Glue" ?
One of my mates used that a couple of times on some aircraft parts and ha said that it expands as a foam when it cures.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: malcolmfrary on June 22, 2013, 10:33:53 am
Quote
where on this boat would be the best place to put the receiver ?
As above, but it doesn't need extremes - you are probably not going to sail it in waves higher than the cabin, so the business ends of the aerials only need to be that high.


Foaming adhesive does expand - thats why the parts being fastened together need to be securely clamped together.  Or pinned.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: pettyofficernick on June 22, 2013, 10:35:19 am
That's the stuff, another brand is Alligator Glue. It is really good stuff, great for bonding to GRP, you just need to clamp job up so it can't move when glue expands....
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: steviejay0 on June 22, 2013, 10:37:07 am
Im only using 2.4 Ghz as I already have all the gear.
Would I be better off spending cash and getting maybe a 40 Mhz set or is that unneccessary?
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: pettyofficernick on June 22, 2013, 10:39:49 am
No need for that, I use 2.4 in all my boats, I is just not suitable for submarines. The beauty of it is you only need one transmitter to run a few boats....
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: steviejay0 on June 22, 2013, 10:46:42 am
I`m hoping that my boat doesnt do the submarine thing !
I must admit I am a fan of the 2.4 Ghz, asI have plenty of spare model memories on transmitter. I also love the freedom from frequency control pegboards and accidental model commands from other rogue transmitters.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on June 22, 2013, 11:02:28 am

Yes, lots of glues to choose from but the ones you already use ( and know ) will do nicely too.
 Remember, as use use the glue of your choice, wipe off as much excess as you can so as not to inhibit your paint or varnish.  :-))
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: steviejay0 on June 22, 2013, 12:54:01 pm
Thank you to everyone who replied to my first post on here.
Sorry I went a bit off the original topic and started talking about radio instead of glue !
When the boat starts to take shape I will see if I can work out how to post a few pics of the build as it progresses.
Im hoping to go to Wings and Wheels model show at North Weald next weekend to stock up on some materials and it will make a nice change to look round the boating area in more detail whereas I usually concentrate on the flying bits.
steviejay0
 
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: fastvee on January 25, 2014, 11:03:59 pm
Hi, just starting my first wooden kit build (aero-naut diva)  and was thinking what do I need to not completely ruin the chances to keep this one floating...

Locally I can get some PVAc D3 glues, but no idea if these ordinary wood glues will be ok to use on boats.  I will coat the hull inside with finishing/laminating/30min epoxy or waterproof boat paint later but want to be sure I am not climbing to the tree backwards.

I do have a lot of no more nails glue that looks like same white stuff like other wood glues but I cant be sure if that is ok also. (used that to fix some chairs)


The instructions say UHU hart is good also, but rather not use these smelly things.


Or is it best to just use 30min epoxy, that would make the progress slow thought.


-Pate
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Arrow5 on January 26, 2014, 08:02:47 am
See if Titebond III is available locally, it is water resistant , water based cleans mistakes and drips with wet rag, no smell.  Coating interior with thin epoxy is a good idea apart from waterproofing it will close gaps and strengthen  the whole structure. Post some pictures of the build, inquiring minds etc.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: roycv on January 26, 2014, 08:30:35 am
Hi I have now been using PVA glues on several models and the viscosity of the glues is a probable guide as to strength.  I bought some 'cheap' but runny PVA white glue and it was not so good.  The last glue I bought was a builders  type glue in a tin and that is very good.  The consistancey is of double cream.

I recently 'up-cycled' a large cardboard box (ex flat screen TV) to be a home for my latest model boat and there was a fair bit of cutting and glueing and I used the thicker glue, put on with a 2 inch wide paint brush, very successfuly and it dries clear.
regards Roy

Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: kmmbcwebmaster on January 26, 2014, 09:22:50 am
PVA is a general all purpose glue but it is not waterproof ,when PVA comes into contact with water its returns to its white state and becomes soft again .
A aliphatic type glue like titebond lll is a better choice as for sealing the inside of the boat I use a water based varnish to seal and protect the timber .
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: fastvee on January 26, 2014, 10:12:29 am
How about the poly glues?  -found this at the local store  http://www.casco.eu/index.php?contentID=126&productID=670&productcatID=99

Will start looking for titebond III.


edit: titebond III ultimate is what we need right?

Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Arrow5 on January 26, 2014, 12:18:50 pm
Correct, not very fast drying, water based but worth the wait. Plus gives you a little shuffling time. Dries slightly yellow so wipe off excess.  Dont forget piccies <*<
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: fastvee on January 26, 2014, 01:04:16 pm
Couldn't  find that locally so I ordered 2x 8fl oz  bottles from uk ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/251321090879).  If my imperial to dl understanding is good that is about half a litres of the stuff. Should be enough for few boats.

Will start build thread when all the stuff I ordered arrive here.

Thanks everyone for your help.

-Pate
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Chris G on January 26, 2014, 03:31:13 pm
You could try one that I use regularly and that is Unibond- no more nails wood adhesive. It glues all woods is weatherproof and dries clear as well as quickly always useful if you are impatient like me.
I have used it on 2 models now and neither have fallen apart. This glue is a good price at Wilko's. look out for a black 120g container.
Happy modelling Chris G   
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: essex2visuvesi on January 26, 2014, 03:40:11 pm
I'm using this stuff successfully :)


http://www.shop4glue.com/aliphatic-resin-wood-glue-large-waterproof-sandable-yellow-resin-wood-adhesive-500ml-bulk-bottle-40-p.asp
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: fastvee on January 26, 2014, 04:10:52 pm
Hi I do have a big pack of that no more nails stuff, but not in a hurry, the boat is still on the plane from germany to here.

Now I need to think about varnish... -any ideas what to use, locally international classic and some hempel stuff are easily available.
is there a how to stain/varnish a model boat article in here somewhere?
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: rickles23 on January 27, 2014, 07:04:03 am
Hi,

Re glue: I am now using a 'superglue' for wood.

It is made by a timber company and is useful to tack on difficult pieces prior to using a wood glue like Aquadhere.

Re: stain/varnish, I use the normal everyday stain or varnish and finish off with a coat of satin clear!

Regards
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: david48 on January 27, 2014, 11:05:18 pm
 Go for Titebond III as said before a it of movement time ,clamp if possible it's god stuff
David
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Mad Scientist on September 22, 2014, 12:13:36 am
Here in North America, the American National Standards Institute (ANSI) is the 'go-to' authority for glue. They have 2 standards significant to Mayhemers - Type II (water-resistant, a.k.a. 'weatherproof) and Type I (waterproof).

Titebond II meets the Type II standard, and Titebond III meets the Type I standard.

Here's a useful article on the subject: http://www.bolderbond.com/pdf/woodsmith.pdf

Tom
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: StarLocAdhesives/FiveStar on September 25, 2014, 04:54:09 pm
We have the same thing in the adhesive trade in Europe , grades listed in D`s measured to EN204 standards in the UK ( equiv. to European standards ) we use the same tests for them in the UK as well as at our other factories in Bulgaria and Czech Republic.


EU standard grades are


D2 non water resistant
D3 is waterproof for exterior use
D4 is waterproof for continuous immersion


Our aliphatic resin glues ( yellow carpenters glues ) and Waterproof PVA glues are waterproof to D4 standards when used correctly
 
Title: Wood glue
Post by: Lother42 on November 29, 2017, 03:13:50 pm
Hi, bought a second hand Billings Mary Ann kit and looking for recommendations on best type of glue to use on hull frames and planks, and also best filler to use on hull once planked, thanks
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: dougal99 on November 29, 2017, 03:34:01 pm

An Alipahatic, waterproof wood glue is the thing you need.


As for filling gaps. Cover the outside with paper masking tape and push car body filler out from the inside. After sanding, cover hull with fibreglass tissue and resin.


HTH


Doug
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Fred Ellis on November 29, 2017, 04:30:13 pm
I have used Gorilla Glue  (https://www.screwfix.com/p/gorilla-glue-wood-glue-532ml/83299) in the past, it seem's to work so far.
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Netleyned on November 29, 2017, 04:48:09 pm
I wood use wood glue for gluing wood :D


Ned
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 29, 2017, 04:53:43 pm
Yes those Gorillas do stick together...  :-)

Aliphatic for me every time these days although I was tempted by a tin of Cascamite in an ironmongery store in Suffolk at the weekend. At £3.99 it seemed a bargain.

Colin
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Lother42 on November 29, 2017, 06:22:34 pm
Thanks for all the info.
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: T33cno on November 29, 2017, 06:54:08 pm
Hi Lother


I also use Aliphatic resin. Quite cheap on ebay but likely expensive to Orkney.
Best price around £12.50 delivered here for 500ml of Deluxe Materials product


My Billings hull
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-dK98Q7f/0/bc58c913/XL/IMG_0568-XL.jpg)
If you cut your planks close fitting the Aliphatic resin will easily fill minor gaps. Unfortunately the wood in their kits is not always best quality and thus the filling is mainly poor surface of the planks
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-q8mVzZp/0/7a1d5f4d/X3/IMG_0557-X3.jpg)

I used this putty for the  external filling
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-FbDCDhd/0/03201493/XL/IMG_0586-XL.jpg)


(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-QBrJwqP/0/3a01d72c/XL/IMG_0589-XL.jpg)


My hull is sealed and reinforced internally with glass cloth and resin


(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-P7Zb5r2/0/fcd75278/XL/IMG_0502-XL.jpg)


Filler primer


(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-rZ3Vr4n/0/ec6edff1/XL/IMG_0637-XL.jpg)
Intermediate filling
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-MprRhzT/0/edab4901/X2/IMG_0610-X2.jpg)

final primer


(https://photos.smugmug.com/Smitt-Rotterdam/i-M6Xgfh5/0/658788c2/XL/IMG_0711-XL.jpg)


Good luck and please show us pictures of your build  :-))
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Buccaneer on November 29, 2017, 07:12:29 pm
Hello Lother

I'll join the queue and recommend Aliphatic Resin from Deluxe materials. For T33cno: Interested in that squadron Products Green Putty. Where do you get it, and how much is it please?

John
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: T33cno on November 29, 2017, 07:15:34 pm
Hi John
Local model shop for me but reasonable price on ebay delivered.


Green or white, consider the primer colour.


https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/322177496920?chn=ps&var=511085394819&dispctrl=1&adgroupid=48658149354&rlsatarget=pla-380363405669&abcId=1128956&adtype=pla&merchantid=113701138&poi=&googleloc=9046326&device=c&campaignid=857333742&crdt=0
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Lother42 on November 29, 2017, 09:14:33 pm
Hi T33cno, thankyou for all your info and pics, very helpful, both items ordered from EBay, got the glue for £12.50 with free postage so can't complain at that, Thanks
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: T33cno on November 29, 2017, 09:29:06 pm
Great price! I was looking at £12.95  :-))
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Lother42 on November 29, 2017, 09:48:33 pm
My mistake, £12.95 it was indeed, still very good price though, :-))
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: T33cno on November 29, 2017, 09:50:05 pm
My mistake, £12.95 it was indeed, still very good price though, :-))
Around £7 for a small bottle in a shop so yes its a bargain
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: bj on November 30, 2017, 09:22:50 am
looking for recommendations on best type of glue to use on hull frames and planks


Think we have been here before on a different thread .....
There are wood glues and waterproof wood glues ranging from D1 to D4 grades - see http://www.constructionchemicals.co.uk/blog/2015/07/13/what-are-d1-d2-d3-d4-adhesives/ (http://www.constructionchemicals.co.uk/blog/2015/07/13/what-are-d1-d2-d3-d4-adhesives/)
Best price for a waterproof grade see https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Adhesives+%26+Sealants/d180/Wood+Adhesive+%26+PVA/sd3198/D4+Wood+Glue/p61864 (https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Adhesives+%26+Sealants/d180/Wood+Adhesive+%26+PVA/sd3198/D4+Wood+Glue/p61864)


Found it  - See http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43780.25.html (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43780.25.html)
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: Martin (Admin) on November 30, 2017, 10:22:08 am
 
Great post BJ!   :-))
Title: Re: Wood glue
Post by: bj on November 30, 2017, 04:19:30 pm

Great post BJ!   :-))


Combine threads?
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Martin (Admin) on November 30, 2017, 04:48:35 pm
 
Topics Merged   :-))
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: tizdaz on December 09, 2017, 03:50:21 pm
I use Titebond 3 Ultimate Wood Glue (I purchased Titebond 2 by mistake at first which is only water resistant!) But Titebond 3 Ultimate IS waterproof, very good stuff...to be honest its the only wood glue your going to need, i know some hobbyists use different types of wood glue for different applications. But im pretty sure this would cover them all, Waterproof/Strong/Easy to sand & Non-toxic no need to worry about fumes! price wise.. Cheapest place i found it was http://www.tyzacktools.com/products/11-titebond-iii-titebond-wood-glue-glue-titebond-original-wood-glue.aspx £8.20 Delivered! (use the £1 reward during checkout which must be an offer they have on at the moment?) which is a bargain as most places its around £10-15 for 16oz!


(http://www.titebond.com/Libraries/BrandToutsSpotlight/TBIIIFrontCoverWNTB.sflb.ashx)

Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: derekwarner on December 09, 2017, 08:17:45 pm
 :-)) yes Daz........simply the best  O0........................... Derek
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on December 09, 2017, 11:25:20 pm
Consider this;

The only gauge of waterproofness which should always be used to check the varasity of waterproof claims, is to make up scrap joint and fully immerse it in water for over 24 hrs. O0 O0 O0
If the joint holds, no weakening, try pulling it apart, then it is waterproof, otherwise the glue is only water resistant. :-)) :-))

Let the buyer beware.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: T33cno on December 09, 2017, 11:27:52 pm
Interestingly some spec sheets say water resistant whilst saying waterproof on the bottle. Deluxe Materials are guilty of this.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: tizdaz on December 10, 2017, 01:13:08 pm
aye, ive always looked at it as: water resistant is basically splash proof, no more & waterproof as submergable.. I used this theory from when i was a child with watches! alot of wrist watches would advertise as "Water Resistant" & lots of people automatically thought "waterproof" ..but 2 totally different meanings, so be sure it clearly states Waterproof (& even then i'd still read the small print!) if you want a fully waterproof product!


As for titebond 3, its 100% waterproof (took this snippet from there website..


"What is the difference between the ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II water-resistance specification?Both of these tests are conducted using 6” by 6” birch laminates glued together to make three-ply plywood. The test for Type I is clearly more stringent than Type II, and involves boiling the glue bonds and testing the specimens while they are wet.Type I testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 1" by 3" specimens, boiling them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 145°F oven for 20 hours. They are boiled for an additional 4 hours, then immediately cooled using running water. The specimens are sheared while wet, and the bonds must pass certain strength and wood failure requirements to pass the Type I specification.Type II testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 2" by 5" specimens, soaking them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 120°F oven for 19 hours. This is repeated for a total of three cycles, and the bonds must not delaminate to pass the Type II specification."[/font]
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: Neil on December 10, 2017, 08:40:07 pm

BUT, And it is a BIG BUT, for the model boat builder who probably puts his well built, well painted and well finished model on the lake for probably at the most I hour a week does it really matter whether the wood glue you use is waterproof or water resistant.


I have seen Marcle card models, especially the 84" SD14, completely built from card sailing happily in  the water for an hour or more, and the glue used was normal PVA.


The secret in waterproofing is not in the glue/adhesive that you use, but the finishing coating.....the paints, undercoats and finally the varnishes and finishing coats, that you put on to cover the timber that you use.............if that finish is sound, then water will not penetrate, and the time your boat is on the water is negligible in the grand scheme of things anyway.
Title: Re: What is the best wood glue to use ?
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on December 11, 2017, 01:47:56 am
aye, ive always looked at it as: water resistant is basically splash proof, no more & waterproof as submergable.. I used this theory from when i was a child with watches! alot of wrist watches would advertise as "Water Resistant" & lots of people automatically thought "waterproof" ..but 2 totally different meanings, so be sure it clearly states Waterproof (& even then i'd still read the small print!) if you want a fully waterproof product!


As for titebond 3, its 100% waterproof (took this snippet from there website..


"What is the difference between the ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II water-resistance specification?Both of these tests are conducted using 6” by 6” birch laminates glued together to make three-ply plywood. The test for Type I is clearly more stringent than Type II, and involves boiling the glue bonds and testing the specimens while they are wet.Type I testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 1" by 3" specimens, boiling them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 145°F oven for 20 hours. They are boiled for an additional 4 hours, then immediately cooled using running water. The specimens are sheared while wet, and the bonds must pass certain strength and wood failure requirements to pass the Type I specification.Type II testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 2" by 5" specimens, soaking them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 120°F oven for 19 hours. This is repeated for a total of three cycles, and the bonds must not delaminate to pass the Type II specification."[/font]

Let the buyer beware.
The above is not waterproof. Its name is Titebond and the manufactures tests are for testing for a tight bond, not a waterproof joint.
As Neil's post indicates, the finish is important, however if the finish gets a bump, say by ramming and is breached, so that water can get in to the timber, then what is the good of only four hours getting wet. In reality waterproof is probably not essential for model boaters, as the boat is not wet for long periods of time.
Manufacturers boast, you have to think smart and do your own research hence, let the buyer beware.