Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: raflaunches on July 13, 2013, 08:39:45 pm
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Hi everyone
Last Friday (5th July) I visited Ron Dean at Deans Marine, when just before I had to rush away to look after the house whilst my sister had her baby, I ordered the HMS Hannibal. Despite me disappearing soon after ordering the kit a week later I went back to see Ron catching him loading his van for the Kirklees show. As promised a complete kit of the Hannibal was there waiting for me. With my Dad I watched Ron open up the big box for me to inspect my latest buy. With all the fittings to fight through, two giant sheets of brass, three fittings trays full of white metal and resin, a beautiful sycamore planked deck and two plans we eventually came to the hull and superstructure pieces. A fabulous GRP hull and battery deck were certainly the pride of the kit! :-))
I've now got to finish my MV Imperial Transport so I can start this beauty, I've got to make up my mind which version I want to build?! The 1898 version or the post 1905 (1917) version in WW1. Decisions decisions! Really looking forward to starting her so the Victorian fleet that many of Mayhemers so dearly want to see... :-)) ;)
Many thanks to Ron and his team at Deans Marine for preparing the kit in such a short amount of time and the brilliant quality of the hull and fittings.
P.S I got to see Rons latest product... His steam plants and engines... Truly magnificent and very affordable I think, I'm even tempted!
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Hi everyone
I thought I would show some of the kit's contents, the GRP hull, GRP superstructure/battery deck, the two etched brass sheets and the sycamore planked decks.
The hull and superstructure sitting on the kitchen table, note that I'm not allowed to build it there under pain of death from Mum!!! <*<
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2rh4jew.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2i11t6p.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/vgsnz7.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/mww7qx.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/71ie88.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/qy6bfq.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/wsjwx2.jpg)
A bit of information about the HMS Hannibal:
She was one of nine Majestic class battleships built for the Royal Navy between 1894 and 1898. They were the biggest and most powerful warships the Admiralty had ordered up to that time. Armed with four 12inch guns, two in two covered barbettes (note that they were not turrets as we know them to be), a secondary battery of 6inch QF guns in casemates along the hull sides, another secondary battery deck of 4inch QF guns on the main deck and eventually on the masts in the fighting tops six 6pdr guns! Truly armed to the teeth!
They were just as revolutionary as the Dreadnought which made all the previous battleships obsolete over night, they were the first to incorporate the 12inch gun, telescopic range finding sights, Harvey 9inch armour, and 6 & 4inch QF guns into one ship. Hull wise they were essentially improved Royal Sovereign class battleships which made them classed as First class Battleships whilst the Royal Sovereigns and others were relegated to Second class Battleships.
Another advantage they had over previous classes of British battleships were their excellent sea keeping abilities due to their high freeboard. Unfortunately war taught British designers the value of compartmentalisation, the Majestics did not have proper compartmentalisation in the engine rooms, the result that when majestic was torpedoed in the Dardanelles she could not counter flood and she capsized.
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Wow Nick, that kit is truly awesome. I was very very tempted a year and a half ago, but after seeing the vast array of etching sheets plus trays and trays of fittings descretion overided and I came home from Ron's with HMS Amazon instead.
If you've only been playing the pipe organ for a couple of years then perhaps Tocata and Fugue in D Minor is a 'wish' that has to wait for more experience and a huge amount of free time.
One day I aim to build that though !
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Why what have heard Bob? Is my little secret out about my added feature for the Hannibal! I'm going to have a recording of Holst's The Planets: Mars- The Bringer of War playing loudly from inside her! :}
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Why what have heard Bob? Is my little secret out about my added feature for the Hannibal! I'm going to have a recording of Holst's The Planets: Mars- The Bringer of War playing loudly from inside her! :}
Only one tune for British Victorian Warships - Crown Imperial by William Walton.
Looks ike you are going to have a lot of fun over the next few years.
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Why what have heard Bob? Is my little secret out about my added feature for the Hannibal! I'm going to have a recording of Holst's The Planets: Mars- The Bringer of War playing loudly from inside her! :}
Are you going to name her "Thunderchild"?
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Are you going to name her "Thunderchild"?
You're not the first the mention the Thunderchild, my mum rang me up and said the very name too, perhaps we are all mad! :} I can just see her sailing on Wickies lake starting with Mars- Bringer of War, followed by Crown Imperial, then Jeff Waynes War of the Worlds! That would be truly epic! :-))
I will truly enjoy building this model, I'm currently reading Brian King's Building Late Victorian Battleships to assist with the build. Hopefully I will due the model justice.
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Looking forward to seeing this one Nick! I'm not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but RA Burt's third volume on British Battleships 1889-1904 is due to be released soon if it's any help...
James
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Looking forward to seeing this one Nick! I'm not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but RA Burt's third volume on British Battleships 1889-1904 is due to be released soon if it's any help...
James
Hi James
Good to hear from you, I've got this particular book on my pre-order list on amazon for the last six months waiting for it to arrive, should be brilliant to read and see some excellent plans and photos. I'm currently reading through the extensive instruction book, certainly a little book in its own right!
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Check this out it's quite cool!
http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/colossus/index.html (http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/colossus/index.html)
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You're not the first the mention the Thunderchild, my mum rang me up and said the very name too, perhaps we are all mad! :} I can just see her sailing on Wickies lake starting with Mars- Bringer of War, followed by Crown Imperial, then Jeff Waynes War of the Worlds! That would be truly epic! :-))
I will truly enjoy building this model, I'm currently reading Brian King's Building Late Victorian Battleships to assist with the build. Hopefully I will due the model justice.
We have been tempted to build a martian war machine to match our manned battleships in scale, its probably one of them 'great idea, dont do it!' thinks though!!
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We have been tempted to build a martian war machine to match our manned battleships in scale, its probably one of them 'great idea, dont do it!' thinks though!!
Wouldn't want to try to get the rc to work in a Martian tripod, its bad enough in a model boat! {-)
Check this out it's quite cool!
http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/colossus/index.html (http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/colossus/index.html)
Absolutely fantastic, well worth the read and the playing with animations, many thanks TailUK. :-))
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The Colossus animations and descriptions are brilliant. Thanks, TailUK
Toby
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Very glad to read that you've taken the plunge with this model. You won't regret it, believe me, and on the water it is the most wonderful thing afloat.
I suggest right at the start you make a decision about which ship it is going to be, because all 9 of them (the largest class of battleships ever built) had subtle and not so subtle differences. I have seen models of Caesar, Hannibal and Majestic (and my own Mars) based on the kit, so there's plenty of others to choose from if you fancy something different.
I've not been able to find a builder's model of any of these ships (If anyone knows of one, please advise!) but the model of Russel in the imperial war museum has much detail in common. Surprisingly there are two surviving ships: Mikasa in Japan is virtually a Manificent and Texas, in Houston, the last surviving Dreadnought, answers many detail questions as well as being equipped with triple expansion engines.
The Burt book referred to would be a good idea and was not available when I built my model so I used instead a pair of articles by the same author that appeared in 'Warship' Vol VII (1983). This is possibly the same material that appears in 'British Battleships'. One of the illustrations shows the individual configurations of the ships, the main points being:
Main deck torpedo net shelf vs. upper deck
Striking (stepped) topmasts vs. concentric
Foremast through the bridge vs. behind it as in the kit
Turret shape different in the last ships
I decided to scratch build the bridge structure because I wanted the 'mast through bridge' configuration and also suspect that the deckhouses printed in the kit are a little overscale. Compare with Burt's elevation drawing. I also built the masts from K&S tube rather than the wood supplied and have not regretted the decision. I made the torpedo net booms from tube as well as I thought the supplied white metal castings would be vulnerable. (You will need to make these anyway if you are going to have an upper deck net shelf as in most of the ships.) I made the davits from brazing wire endlessly filed and emery'd to a taper section for the same reason.
One thing I would do differently is to add very substantial bilge keels because she is a snappy roller in a short sea of the kind you can get at Wicksteed. By substantial I mean strong, keyed right through the fibreglass hull and secured with P40 on the inside so that no leaks are possible. The same goes for the net shelves because this is where one's grip goes when handling what is quite a heavy model.
Apart from those details, I followed the kit and used virtually all of the supplied fittings. I used car heater motors because with 12 poles you can have to the props turning about 1 rev per second and gave her differential power, which I would say is essential.
This is a truly wonderful kit of a wonderful ship and a tribute to Ron and his team. In my case it spawned a fleet of Victorian warships, none of which would have happened if I had not walked into his showroom that day and out again with that gigantic cardboard box. Ron should be justly proud when he sees these models at the shows. Thanks, Ron.
Here's Mars
(http://www.viewing.com/Mars/CIMG0846%20large.JPG)
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The Majestic is most incredible "kit" I have ever seen. Wonderful job Ron. One day I want to build one. I nearly did a couple of years ago. I need more practice first though :-))
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the majestic class was not the thunderchild ship in war of the worlds. The description more resembles HMS Polythemus, as the thunderchild was described as a torpedo ram. The misconception came from the artwork on the album cover which depicted a majestic class battleship.
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Hi Victorian
Many thanks for the advice and information, I'll try to find a copy of Warship Vol VII, I have Volumes 1-4 so hopefully I can get one off eBay. It was your model that I first saw at Warwick a few years back, Tony Newstead has lent me a picture of Mars, Kent and Pelorus on the inside pool. I was that impressed by your models that I have always promised myself that I would build a Majestic class battleship (once I had saved up!). In fact Tony Newstead has asked me to 'get a move on'! so we can have a fleet regatta of Victorian warships, probably two Majestics, a Kent, his Russia cruiser, SMS Emden and who knows others might turn up! Might be a couple of years away though! I'm looking forward to building the kit, looking through the list of Majestics left which leaves:
Victorious
Illustrious
Prince George
Jupiter
I'll wait to find a copy of Warship Vol VII to find which ship to build before I start like you recommended at least then I can start gathering information on that particular ship. At the moment HMS Prince George or HMS Victorious looks interesting with their service histories but who knows I might change my mind! {-)
Any way many thanks to Ron and his team once again for producing and updating the kit, I'll definitely be keeping a build log of her once I start.
the majestic class was not the thunderchild ship in war of the worlds. The description more resembles HMS Polythemus, as the thunderchild was described as a torpedo ram. The misconception came from the artwork on the album cover which depicted a majestic class battleship.
I thought it strange that the book described a different ship when I read it a few years back but never thought much of it but you are right it definitely describes Polythemus to a T! :-))
The Majestic is most incredible "kit" I have ever seen. Wonderful job Ron. One day I want to build one. I nearly did a couple of years ago. I need more practice first though :-))
Hopefully between us we can complete the nine ships of the class! :-))
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Now that would definetly be worth a day out to see!
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In fact Tony Newstead has asked me to 'get a move on'! so we can have a fleet regatta of Victorian warships, probably two Majestics, a Kent, his Russia cruiser, SMS Emden and who knows others might turn up! Might be a couple of years away though! I'm looking forward to building the kit, looking through the list of Majestics left which leaves . . . . .
Victorious, Illustrious, Prince George, Jupiter
I thought it strange that the book described a different ship when I read it a few years back but never thought much of it but you are right it definitely describes Polythemus to a T! :-))
I really look forward to following this build Nick, it might give me the confidence to take on one of the three remaining ships.
As to your excellent fleet meet suggestion, my HMS Polyphemus is currently in for a major refit due to "exceeding its design depth" but will be back on the water in a couple of months.
Bob K
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Hello all you Majestic class pre dreadnaught fans. Here is a shot of my Caesar on her maiden voyage at Eastnor castle in 2010. She is one of the two in the class to have circular barbettes which I vacuum formed myself. The second shot is her with Victorian's Mars at the International model boat show. So far only a fleet of two so let me know where and when we can gather for the full review. Cheers Graham.
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Hi Graham
Many thanks for the pictures of Caesar and Mars, we will keep you informed of the potential fleet review, fingers crossed that I'll be able to start her soon. :-))
Best regards
Nick B
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I forgot to mention, I've found a copy of Warship Vol VII and with any luck it should be on its way to my address for me to read and digest- one step closer to choosing one of the nine Majestics! :-))
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Excellent news that you found that so quickly. It took months when I tracked my copy down.
The PRO (National Archives, Kew) have photographs of virtually every ship from this period, normally shown as new and maybe other times. Their 'search engine' is almost impossibly befuddling, but the staff personally or on the phone are amazingly helpful. They also have many of the ship's logs which you are allowed to read and even photograph.
The Imperial War Museum have a library in a building around the corner in S London with much fascinating material including many photos of ships. An appointment may be required. An excellent card index (like a computer, but works!) will lead you quickly to any relevant material and you can copy at modest prices.
No-one's responded to my question about a builder's model: as the most powerful battleships ever built at that time, and many from private builders, the Majestics must have had builders models. Where are they? Surely someone here (Colin?) knows of one?
I've discovered many other previously unkown models in my travels, but never these ships. In this period, the builder's models were astonishingly accurate and reveal intricate details that you can never deduce from official plans or endless photographs. (OK it's often said that the models represent the ship 'as planned', not 'as built', and careful checking against the usually pitiful collection of surviving photographs is a must).
This is a dangerous question for me because if I ever do find a builders model of a 'Majestic', all I'm going to learn is about the innumerable mistakes that I've made in the model! But my still unfinished 'Niobe' simply would not have been possible without the discovery of the fabulous 'Amphitrite' in the store room at Barrow and the more workmanlike, but very accurate 'Diadem' in the now closed Science Museum gallery.
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Excellent news that you found that so quickly. It took months when I tracked my copy down.
Yes, I spent most of yesterday evening hunting the Internet and eBay for a copy and when I found a copy for a relatively low price, I bought it without hesitation. RA Burts book isn't due out to buy until September so at least I can do some early reading.
Hopefully one day a builders model does appear even if does mean that our models could be inaccurate compared to it. But as I found out with my Insect class gunboat when I had almost finished the model I discovered a photo of the ship in the era I was building it to but my model was wrong, so I was left with the difficult decision whether to rebuild or leave it alone. I decided on a 50/50 solution and rebuild the obvious differences and leave the rest.
I've found some pictures in an old book called 'old photographs of the Royal Navy' by Wilfred Pymn Trotter of the Majestics, I'll try to upload some of the pictures for comparison but it does have some very interesting pictures of Victorian era warships.
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Further to this discussion of elusive Majestic builders models (where's Colin when you need him?), here's a snap of Vengeance in the Vickers Museum at Barrow in Furness. Vengeance is very similar to the Majestics in detail and I've tried to capture some of this in the Mars model.
Incidentally, Vengeance might be the very finest of all builder' models, finer even than the glorious Minas Gerais, last seen tucked away in a dusty NMM store.
(http://www.viewing.com/Barrow/DSC01185.JPG)
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(http://www.viewing.com/Barrow/DSC01185.JPG)
Some mind boggling detail on the Vengeance model: that torpedo net shelf looks to be soldered wire strips into a frame.I also look at the working hinges, with visible fixings. I put working hinges on certain areas of mine and it's things like this that eat time and enthusiasm away.Mine nows sits in pieces, very nice pieces, but still unassembled.
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Hi Victorian
Thanks for the picture of the Vengence for reference, it'll certainly help with the detail work.
I received my copy of Warship Vol VII on Friday and I have been reading it in all my spare moments at work during my tea breaks! I have definitely decided to build HMS Prince George, the third of the Majestics to be built in 1895. Reading about the modifications carried out on Prince George compared to her sisters I was curious about the reference to having 'larger starfish' than Majestic. Doesn't give how much bigger they were than other Majestics but at least I know to modify them closer to the time, I also have to create 'stepped masts' to identify her from her sisters.
I managed to buy a photo off eBay of Prince George when she was completed in her Victorian colours, hopefully it will be reasonably clear to see some of the detail work!
Hi Pondweed, hopefully one day you'll finish her... I'm still trying to finish a model I started 8 years ago!
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Hi everyone
Hopefully during my two weeks leave I will be starting the hull fitting out with the prop shafts and rudder posts, etc.
However whilst I was looking through some old threads, with links to Mikasa, I wondered why the ships cowl vents on most Victorian era ships were painted red internally. Was there any benefits of being painted red or was it just that it looked good?
Just wondered... :}
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Whilst not a Majestic class pre-dreadnought my Canopus (1/96 scale) may be of interest. She is steam powered (Cheddar models Puffin unit) and as you can see from the link has guns that fire!
I would suggest you build her in the Victorian colour scheme as it looks really good for models of this type.
As suggested elsewhere in this thread, maybe we should all try to meet up one day and have a pre-dreadnought fleet day!
Good luck
Cheers
Geoff
http://wmunderway.8m.com/gallery29/gallery29.htm (http://wmunderway.8m.com/gallery29/gallery29.htm)
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Hi Geoff,
Thanks for showing us the Canopus in all her glory!
Have you gone off scale with the running gear atall? The reason I ask is that I'm drawing up a similar installation with about the same displacement in a similar 1880's 'battleship' hull so I'd need similar performance, pressure, revs etc. assuming similar 40mm' ish props. Even the original power at about 14,000shp is similar.
Any thought would be appreciated :}
Thanks
Tony
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Tony,
Not really nearly all was to scale. The propellors were at least 40mm and four blade so rather larger than original but I found that the larger props gave better speed and greater economy. Steam engines only have so many "bites" of steam to work with and they like low rotational speed with big props.
I used a single "Puffin" engine geared one to one to two contra-rotating props and I get 25/30mins duration and near perfect scale speed. The boiler is a Cheddar models Puffin mk 1. If you can get a mk 2 it has about 40% more water capacity so you will get a longer duration. There is no differenec in size/weight just the flume goes in one end and out the top the other rather than a reverse flow such the funnel is the same end as the burner in the mk 1.
Operating pressure is about 25/30 psi with the safety valve set to 45 psi.
On Canopus I had to open up the main deck 6" gun ports to get sufficient air into the hull. A better way would be to use a small computer fan but basically all the ventilators work as you need a lot of fresh air for reliability.
Canopus weighs in at 35 pounds and is 52" long and about 10" wide if I remember. She still sails occassionaly at my home water in Southend.
An earlier post asked about the colour inside the vents. I'm not aware of any reason other than asthetics. If looking at the Mikasa site the vents have venetian blinds accross but this is only to keep the rain out of the museum ship. In practice no such blinds were ever fitted in any navy.
Cheers
Geoff
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The propellors were at least 40mm and four blade so rather larger than original
Thanks Geoff,
Project J will be 48" x 10" with a displacement of about 29lbs so not that far away but it's the prop size and the pressure that I'm concerned about. The design speed was the same as Canopus so I may have to employ similar 'adjustments' ;)
Having used steam on a previous, slightly smaller, vessel with a similar hull shape and with scale props (Size and pitch), it was hard to keep the speed up a lot of the time, hence my question.
Thanks for your help and I look forward to meeting as and when the regatta happens, as long as foreign navies are not banned!
Regards
Tony
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Tony,
Foreign navies not banned as we need something to shoot at!! :-)
If in doubt make sure you have room for larger props. I seem to recall with Canopus 50mm 4 blade were too big and were counter-productive.
Good luck with your project.
Cheers
Geoff
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Merci mon brave %)
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Tony,
I just checked the prop diameter on Canopus they are 4 blade 55mm so larger than I remembered.
Cheers
Geoff
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Thanks Geoff, I may have to 'fiddle' the shaft angle to suit. :-))
Regards
Tony
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Seems that Mayhemers are mind readers, the prop size was my next question! ;)
Thanks Geoff for answering my question about cowl vent colours, sometimes there is a practicable reason why the Navy did what they did with ship fittings but like you say it's probably aesthetics.
It certainly looks good for a Victorian fleet review in the future, even if we have a few ships under different colours :-)) .
Regards
Nick
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Regarding vent colours, I don't have any definitive information. Considering these were the last ships built to fight the French, it's possible that the effect of a set of glaring red eyes looming over the horizon might have been a consideration! I don't think I've seen a contemporary builder's model that doesn't have the cowls red on the inside, allthough the outside is often left burnished. You can also see red interiors on some contemporary postcards
Another factor is the crucifix shaped grille that's supplied in the Hannibal kit. Most builders models omit these, although Cressy does have them. They are difficult/impossible to see in contemporary photographs and I omitted them in Mars. However, I recall a wreck diving show on TV about Majestic and lo and behold there was a cowl with the cruciform grating!
Here's Cressy (In the Ships of the Sea Museum, Savannah, Georgia)
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Okay, just in case anybody was wondering what the purpose of the crucifom grill was, and the funnel grills. The idea was to place canvas covers over them to restrict the draft when drawing boilers/cleaning out ash etc. The grills just supported the canvas covers.
Geoff
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Thanks for that explanation Geoff and indeed they are clearly visible in this picture of Hannibal.
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Hi everyone
Thanks to you all for the extra information about cowl vents, etc.
Well, now I'm on leave for two weeks I have a chance to start to build the HMS Prince George, I managed to find an original photograph of her from 1898 showing her in the original Victorian colours.
Phase 1: The building stand
(http://i40.tinypic.com/sm5con.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/14lswnc.jpg)
I built the stand from 20mm soft pine using the templates in the instructions, note to anyone building the kit after me that the stern template will require some adjustment to match the shape of the hull perfectly, but we are all modellers so we should be able to modify as we go along! I used PVA wood glue and screws to make the stand and covered it with some sticky backed foam to prevent the hull being scratched.
Tonight or tomorrow I will file the excess GRP off the hull and glue the hull beams into position.
I will have to modify the torpedo net shelf to fit just below the deck like the original Majestic, the kit is closer to Mars or Hannibal but as Victorian pointed out that each vessel was different in layout, its all down to research to find which layout was fitted to what ship. If anything it will be a little easier than the Hannibal or Mars fit because of the proximity of the shelf to the deck, I will have to scratch build the torpedo net arms/derricks because the ones in the kit will be too short.
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Hi. There are quite a few articles on t'internet and these might be helpful:
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/albion.htm (http://www.cityofart.net/bship/albion.htm)
http://www.gwpda.org/naval/nets.htm (http://www.gwpda.org/naval/nets.htm)
These shelves are going to be very vulnerable to handling damage. In Niobe I keyed the net shelves strongly into the hull by leaving tabs on the shelf that engage with slots in the hull, sealing with runs of thick cyano and reinforcing the back with car filler. I don't know how that will work out with the upper deck shelves. (These adhesives will stick to both plasticard and fibreglass).
I've used the same technique for the bilge keels.
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Hi Victorian
Thanks for the links to torpedo nets, I thought I was going a bit nuts because I have only found one picture of Prince George with the torpedo net shelf on the upper deck but after some careful reading I remembered that in 1903-5 all Majestics had their shelfs moved from the upper deck to the main deck so confusion averted!
In the two pictures below show the part required to create the running gear for the model. The prop shafts are the standard 4mm dia stainless steel with a brass outer shaft. The props are not the finished item for the working model, as Ron said to me they are there for testing and fitment of shafts only.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2lxbif9.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2d2g8c4.jpg)
The next picture shows the holes to be drilled and filed out to fit the running gear, the two prop shaft exits, the A-frame brackets and the single hole for the rudder post.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2mxpv1c.jpg)
The next pictures show the port and starboard A-frame brackets in situ.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/28br5l4.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2j31d37.jpg)
The next picture shows the prop shafts sitting in their holes tacked in place with a spot of superglue.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/19mcmw.jpg)
The two items brought together in harmony, tacked together once again with superglue (temporary)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/f0snya.jpg)
The proposed power plants- two 12v car heater motors from a VW Polo.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2ly0o5s.jpg)
The props and shafts in place to ensure that everything lines up- luckily it did!
(http://i44.tinypic.com/91a3kh.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/dcx6px.jpg)
The forward and quarter decks temporary fitted in place with the battery/superstructure sitting on top.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/24y5nr4.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/jzk12e.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/drdthv.jpg)
Hopefull the decks and motors will be fitted soon... :-))
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Nick.......in the eleventh image below we see a dimple cap on axis of the end plate on the 12 volt electric motor
This usually suggests a single ball [bearing] in the dimple which acts as a thrust bearing due to the EMF produced under load ...ie., the electric motors are designed for a preferential direction of rotation only
From memory you have used 12 volt car ventilation motors before in previous vessels....but have you trialed twin motors with one counter rotating?
Many years ago I used a similar setup & the 12 volt motor running backwards constantly chattered as the EMF was dragging the armature off the thrust ball.......the same motor provided greatly fluctuating current draw.....
As I have acknowledged.....electricity is a black art for me & I have little real knowledge...suffice to say this EMF is used in reverse as the principal for Demag cronical rotor brake motors in industrial applications ....Derek
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Nick.......in the eleventh image below we see a dimple cap on axis of the end plate on the 12 volt electric motor
This usually suggests a single ball [bearing] in the dimple which acts as a thrust bearing due to the EMF produced under load ...ie., the electric motors are designed for a preferential direction of rotation only
From memory you have used 12 volt car ventilation motors before in previous vessels....but have you trialed twin motors with one counter rotating?
Many years ago I used a similar setup & the 12 volt motor running backwards constantly chattered as the EMF was dragging the armature off the thrust ball.......the same motor provided greatly fluctuating current draw.....
As I have acknowledged.....electricity is a black art for me & I have little real knowledge...suffice to say this EMF is used in reverse as the principal for Demag cronical rotor brake motors in industrial applications ....Derek
Hi Derek
When we started to use car heater motors many moons ago, my Dad being a rather inquisitive kind of chap noticed on the first motor we fetched out of a Vauxhall Cavalier had two + labels on the terminals. He connected them up and like you say the motor turns in both directions. We have used this method on several models to have either in-turning or out turning props, and works brilliantly. We were actually unaware that what the dimple cap on the axis of the end plate meant- now we know, many thanks for clearing that up, we just knew that it worked! :-))
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But doesn't the thrust from the prop load the shaft?
Regards Ian.
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Many moons ago, I needed two heater motors to drive a pair of "Kenlowe" fan blades, - cooling a radiator fastened to a Ford Ten side valve engine. The two I got, both "Smiths", looked exactly the same but rotated in opposite directions when fastened to a battery. Reversing the connections didn't alter it but on removing the end bell of both, the internal wiring connections showed a difference. by altering the "Wrong" one to the same as the "Right" one, both rotated in the correct direction and could drop the temperature by 20deg. in about a mile. Providing the thrust is through the motor to the "Blind" endcap, it shouldn't make any difference.
Regards Ian.
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But doesn't the thrust from the prop load the shaft?
Regards Ian.
Hi Ian
I've just spoken to my Dad about this, he said that we use a thrust washer fitted between the coupling and the prop shaft to prevent this happening.
Regards
Nick
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? Surley (don't call me Shirley) between the prop and the proptube?
Regards Ian.
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? Surley (don't call me Shirley) between the prop and the proptube?
Regards Ian.
Yes, that's what I meant to say, not the coupling! :embarrassed:
Regards
Nick
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This is the beauty of pin or ball type couplings, no thrust on the motor shaft, the propshaft although driven floats. Not something it can do with Huco's.
Regards Ian.
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Mars is powered by two car heater motors supplied originally by one the traders since getting into scrapyards isnt so easy nowadays. They run beautifully and are not sensitive to direction with Direct drive and adequate but not excessive speed. The shafts have to be inclined sharply because of the motor diameter. Ideally this shaft would run horixontally along the keel to the crankshafts in the bottom of the engine.
Props are Swan foundry Vicdtorian pattern (sorry cant remembervwhat size but 4 blade and similar to the Deans ones and I cant speak highly enough of the product. When I lost a prop from little Pelorus through over enthustic reversing in a weed tangle, prop shop made me the exact replacent with an improved locking arrangment.
The big cruiser Niobe has two heater style motors which use the traditional Smiths frame but are in fact 24v hydraulic pump motors oprated on 12v in the boat. The drive is transmitted by a 2:1 step up timing belt driving the smallest pulley available, so that the shaft lies right in the bottom of the hull. These motors share the 12 pole design of the car heater motors but are far more powerful. I didn't know about the dimple but these motors run in sintered bearings and run equally in eith direction.
The specially made shafts have a huge sealed ball bearing at the engine room end to take thrust loads and the belt tension. The shafts have the most positive prop locking nut arrangement I can come up with. The only snag is that if heavy handed, there's so much torque that the belts can be made to skip at any amount of tension and that the Captain is able to water ski behind his command. The bow wave thrown up is very plausible at a scale 200 kt, resembling Froude's model tests.
Incidentally, if you do loose a paired prop, don't dispair. A bras disc of the right diameter with radial notches cut by tin snips and bent to the approximate profile of the surviving prop will work so well you will struggle to tell which is which. Solder one of the locknuts to stop it spinning.
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I have also been using car blower motors in my various battleships for a good number of years without any issues. Mine came from a Talbot Horizon and look very similar to the ones in the pictures. I run mine in parallel on 6 volts and the current draw is about 3amps in all full speed, which is quite adequate.
I have used identical motors with one electronise speed controller in Lord Nelson 1908 (45 lbs) Canopus 1899 (35 lbs - when electric powered) and Neptune 1918 (60 lbs) and in all cased found the motors worked just as well in either direction.
On a practical basis I measured the stall current on these motors and it was in excess of 20 amps each on 6 volts! I therefore installed a 10 amp in line fuse between the battery and speed controller and a 5 amp fuse for each motor between the speed controller and the motor. This worked in practice as on one occassion I sailed Neptune in some loose ice and a chunk got wedged beteen the prop and hull and the torque tore the engine out of it's mounting inside and blue the 5 amp fuse leaving the other motor and speed contoller fully operational.
In terms of taking the thrust I typically use the end of the prop shaft with a couple of brass washers. On the inside just the locking nut and more washers for reverse and I have never had any issues. It's all set up so there is no direct thrust loading on the motors.
You will find the motors perfectly quiet and extreemley long lasting. In fact I now have two spares which are earmarket for Iron Duke 1916 @ 1/96 scale. Just started the final plans for this beast!
Enjoy
Geoff
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Radio-Controlled-Boat-Rc-HMS-Goliath-Battleship-Scale-1-96-/290961342855?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item43bea5c187 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Radio-Controlled-Boat-Rc-HMS-Goliath-Battleship-Scale-1-96-/290961342855?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item43bea5c187)
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So by looks of things I'm not the only nutter who uses car heater motors then! Thanks for the extra information about them, as a popular supermarket says 'every little helps'!
Hopefully this Sunday the hull will be ballasted to see how much extra weight that 'might be' required to sit her at her waterline. I've been quite busy adding internal bulkheads and the alike to compartmentalise the hull. I have built up the engine mounts using some mahogany looking hardwood from a building merchants and keyed in place with superglue then coated it with fibreglass to prevent it breaking loose (has happened to me before! :embarrassed: ). The bulkheads are off cuts from my Dad's HMS X1 project and with a bit of modeller's fettling they fitted, these will create the smoke generator box- I will be using MMBs 24v Foggy Unit Mk 2- it will also allow me to add ballast boxes wither side of the foggy unit, once ballasted the the box will be covered with 1/8" ply and the ESCs will sit on top. A place for everything! ;)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2efnblj.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/177o9j.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/11h70gw.jpg)
I have also started to paint the inside of the hull, we prefer to see a painted interior to seal everything in and to make everything look nice and clean.
As per the instructions I cut out the rudder shapes from the 1mm plastic card sheet, located the brass rod from the fittings pack and glued the rudder together. The only difference is that I filled it up with P-40 car filler to give it some shape and weight.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/29zr6g0.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2w1tmh4.jpg)
I am not 100% sure about the accuracy of the rudder shape as the drawing in Warship Vol VII shows a squarer rudder shape and a different hinge position- as I get along I'm sure we will find out what is correct! :-))
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Nice progress and good to see another Pre-Dreadnought under construction. I believe the rudders on these ships were unbalanced and were mounted direct to the keel post so for complete accuracy you may need to move the rudder closer to the keel post, but then again it is under water and will work perfectly well the way it is. I'll check on the rudder shape from my plans when I get home if I remember and will report back.
Don't forget to build a turret turning mechanism in and allow some good space beneath the turrets if you want to get firing guns. I have various methods some proven and others still on the drawing board!
Look forward to further progress and pictures.
Regards
Geoff
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Looking good. The MMB 24V misters are really good, and will 'smoke' for up to an hour. Making rudders look like keelpost hinged is fun, getting aqll the pintel details realistic, but should be a lot easier than the rudders on your gunboat. Please keep posting :-))
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Thanks Geoff, I would be most grateful if could confirm the rudder hinge location for me, regarding the turrets I was informed by Ron Dean that some GRP versions might be available in the future because Colin in Germany has bought one too and is converting it to Mikasa, in the process he is making some GRP turrets so fingers crossed!
I'll try to take as many pictures as possible for everyone Bob K, the rudder should be easier even if I have to rebuild it, the gunboat was serious fun to get to work properly especially replacing the servo for a bigger metallic geared version! I have quite a few MMB foggies saved up now, so I don't have to keep swapping them from model to model, so simple and brilliant to use, just gives that impression of steam,. I've got to modify the funnel from the foggy to convert it to a twin so I visit to the builders merchant might be coming again soon.
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she's coming along nicely, screaming for a set of prop shop vintage era props, the level of detail on ships of this time frame can drive you crazy( I'm at least half way there!!!) from looking at photos she will show a large amount of chain, take a looks at the 3D printed chain at the floating drydock .. ships of this vintage may of had different styles of rudders even in ships that were of close design, it was an age experiment and advancement with ships being reworked before completion and often obsolete when launched.. I'm in the middle of 2 month yard period to finally get my beast from just runnable to finally finished.. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929997
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Hi tghsmith
Thanks, yours looks fantastic too, the level of detail in the kit is good but looking at period photos you begin to realise the extra fittings that you need to add yourself! I'm saving up for some prop shop vintage props, I love the quality and the feel of cast bronze propellers! If the weather holds the hull will be ballasted tomorrow morning, I've already planned for two 12v SLAs, two car heater motors, and a foggy unit, so I'm hoping that not too much more ballast is required. I'll have a look at the floating drydock for the chains, I luckily found some for my 1/32 scale river gun boat from MMB several years ago that looked perfect and was hoping to find some nice linked chain for the Prince George so fingers crossed it'll look the part.
Look forward to seeing your Brooklyn finished too, Victorian era ships seem to have that 'something' about them, :-))
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i am also pleased to see some more of the Older types of ships... :-))
my friend down the road is building Hannibal "Victorian style"
he is using the Deans kit and modifying it according to the Admiralty plans, and a book by a known gentleman..
here's his main gun...
sorry for jumping in... hope you enjoy your build as my friend his enjoying his..
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the picture of your friend's main gun, it looks fantastic! Hope I can make mine as good as his.
I've been looking through some books which have given me some ideas for future Victorian era vessels:
The old Warspite looks interesting with her massively curved hull sides, I have plans of an old gun sloop called HMS Basilisk which looks very appealing!
I was going to ballast the hull today but the weather was not the best so its been postponed until next weekend.
I've been looking through the prop shop catalogue for props and I can only find the 43mm and 76mm diameter four bladed props in the vintage section, I think the props on the majestic class in this scale would be approx 50-55mm. Any ideas which props I should use? I want to keep it scale-ish, there are some Rabosch brass props in the correct size but I don't know if they'd look right for a pre dreadnought.
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Hi Nick
there are a lot of interesting Victorian era vessels.... from big battle ships to small mine layers
to give you an idea what the Raboesch props look like on the Hannibal..... i think they look OK, then again i am not one of the bigest rivet pickers.. :o
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Thanks Colin
They look the part, I'll be ordering some of them from Ron this afternoon, I'm hopefully taking the hull to Ron's Open Days in a few weeks time and would like to have the hull ready for some trials on his boating lake. I'm taking the kit back to work with me next week so I've got something to do at night time, its very strange, a lot of RAF lads seem to be interested in her! So fingers crossed she'll look something, ready for the open day.
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Hi everyone
After a hectic week at work (if you know my current job is you'll know what I'm on about!) I couldn't do any work on the Prince George- quite annoying but hey that's life in a blue suit (whoops RAFisms :police: ).
When I returned home on Friday I decided that I would use the plans in the Warship Vol VII in conjunction with the kit plans, which meant that the rudder had to be remade.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/15dt54k.jpg)
So after the decision was made I removed the old plastic card rudder and the rudder post from the hull. Using the plans I drew up a new rudder on to some thin brass sheet, and filled in the old rudder post hole.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2a4nuvp.jpg)
I found some brass rod which was the same diameter as the old rudder post and shaft and carefully soldered them together, not a perfect job but looks more accurate, just needs a proper clean up.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/wukux3.jpg)
In addition to the new rudder I decided that the prop shafts looked too skinny so once again with the plans in Warship Vol VII I beefed them up with plastic card strip coated in car body filler, smoothed whilst wet and sanded round in shape. A bit more filling and sanding is required on the shaft to finish it off, I've only done the port shaft at the moment but it makes all the difference.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/a1laht.jpg)
A special thanks to Colin-d for showing me pictures of the Rabosche props and Deans Marine for the quick delivery, they arrived Thursday morning, they really do look the part, they are only temporarily attached to show everyone what they look like.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2wdx0zb.jpg)
The hull will be ballasted tomorrow morning at Wicksteed Park model boating lake, so we will see how much lead will need to be added to the batteries, motors, foggy unit and the deck/superstructure.
HMS Prince George will be on display on Saturday at the Deans Marine Open Days, hopefully looking a bit more majestic!
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Hi everyone
Took the hull to Wickies today for the ballasting trials {-) What a laugh!
The hull got some attention before it even reached the water from some of our local sailors, but she eventually got launched- no champagne but some bread and butter pudding cake from a club secretary was eaten in its honour!
However, plans never go as planned and sure as water being wet I quickly realised that what I had bought with me was not enough- no way near enough!!! :embarrassed:
Initially I had two 12v 7amp/hr SLA batteries, two 12v car heater motors, and one 24v foggy unit Mk 1from MMB.
The hull sat there laughing at us! So out came two 6v 4amp/hr batteries- nope still not much happening! Another two batteries came out, then all 5lbs of lead sheet I had brought from home (no I didn't nick it- honest :police: ) and still it sat 1.5inches too high.
So WPMBC members gathered what they had spare and promptly a tub of lead was sitting on top of the motors, still not enough, Chuffy lent me two 5000amp NI-Cads, Nigel put in his big battery pack, and some small rx batteries were put in!!! At the end of twenty minutes she still sat 1/4" higher than she should but it was enough to test her stability- very good in the calm waters but only time will tell what she will be like in rougher conditions!
I took her out and we went home to weigh the her, it was a big shock to discover that the ballast I bought with me weighed 30lbs! So with the extra ballast borrowed from the club it looks like she will be weighing at approx 32-34lbs!
(http://i44.tinypic.com/33w4a9z.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/1238b5i.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/34o7t6v.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/142u22q.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/1218ria.jpg)
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http://www.wmunderway.8m.com/cgi/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1302198198/3#3 this method has worked for me,
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Same as Canopus at 35/38 pounds overall. Predreadnoughts are quite stubby in hull shape and indeed take quite a lot of ballast to bring them down to the waterline. Being quite beamy they are also very stable.
In Canoups I used concrete blocks cast to shape sitting either side of the boiler and deliberatlety not too low as otherwise models tend to "bob" a bit.
You need have no concerns in building lightly with this model!
Enjoy
Geoff
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Hi Nick,
i could show you an Admiralties plan Rudder... :-))
and with a bit of luck, we can have a chat at the Deans Open days...
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Hi
This project is looking good! When I built Mars, I got my grandson (about 10 at the time) to help with ballasting the hull in the bath. When we had it trimmed to the waterline, I got him to weigh the hull and everything we put into it and multiply the result by 96 cubed. The result came out at around 14,000 tons. So we weighed a battleship in the bath! Incidentally, he got an 'A' in GCSE maths just the other day.
In operation Mars carries 2x 12v 12AH gel cells for deep draft or 1x 12AH + 1 x 6AH for shallow draft. She can run for at least 6 Hrs on one 12AH cell. One note is to thoroughly restrain these heavy batteries. When I had a runaway with the old 40 Mhz radio, she went full astern into a parked rowing boat and the 12AH battery slid right aft, almost submerging the quarterdeck.
I'll bring Mars to Ron's open day, along with the soon? to be complete Niobe.
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I'm certainly enjoying myself with the build, especially when I'm not working! Might be working 12-14 hour days- boo <:(
With regards to the ballast trials yesterday I was just quite surprised how buoyant the GRP hull is- I'm usually used to a much heavier hull made from wood, our first model a 1/12 scale RAF Air Sea Rescue launch weighed in at 30lbs but half of that weight was hull!
I'll be looking forward to chatting to you all and comparing our models at the Deans Marine open days.
Colin- I would really like to see the original Admiralty plans of the rudder most grateful for your offer, I'll see you at the open days.
Tonight I have cut out the port 3pdr bow gun in the hull and built up the casemate, and marked out the stern walk. Tomorrow night the starboard bow gun will be cut out and made and maybe build all the 4inch guns whilst the glue dries.
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I massively re-inforced the sternwalk with radial 1/16" rods about 1/2" spacing which were sandwiched between the .040" plasticard layers and then heat welded with a big soldering iron on the inside, squashing the layers together. Then the radiating rods, about an inch long, were encased in a solid clod of P40 on the indside. This paid off during the runaway episode when the sternwalk took the full force of the impact!
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I was looking at a similar method when you mentioned your runaway episode, I have to be careful with my insect class gunboat in reverse and in tight turns near the lake edge because the rudders project about 3inches from the stern! The only difference is that at least I can make the stern walk stronger!
Tonight I have made the 4inch 12pdr guns for the port secondary battery, made up of five white metal parts, I cleaned up and super glued the parts together, next I will be cutting the vac form gun shields away from the sheet and gluing them into position. I'll upload the pictures this weekend.
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So far tonight...
I have been studying the drawings I have to locate the torpedo net shelves and have marked them out on the hull, does anyone know why the shelves are at different heights?- there is a clearly visible step between the outer shelves and the middle one.
Any way, I have drilled out the supporting rods for the stern walk but taking on Victorians advice I will be fixing them in place with P40. Unfortunately I can't stick the stern walk floor plate into place because I forgot to pick up the plastic card sheet from home with that part on it! :embarrassed: But at least it's ready for application when I go home on Friday. I'm making the starboard 4inch guns tonight to finish off the visible secondary armament on the superstructure. More pictures will be upload when I get home.
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Hi everyone
been very busy today with the build, I'll start with the pictures from last week of the 4 inch guns.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/sn1hzt.jpg)
The guns of course don't sit on the shelter deck roof, they sit beneath in the currently closed doors on the superstructure, but it gives the impression of being armed to the teeth!
(http://i43.tinypic.com/b84i86.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2igdhnd.jpg)
This is the picture I'm using for colour and basic layout of the model, apart from a picture of the launch of HMS Prince George this is probably one of the earliest photos of her (sorry about the flash!). You can see the torpedo net shelf which I have marked out on the GRP hull but if you look closely at the bow in front of the anchor bed you can see the 'bow chaser' 3pdr gun enclosure. The strange thing about it is if look through a magnifying glass you can see that the gun is being sheeted in which leads me to believe that either she is being repaired or being completed ready for service.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/x2l6bp.jpg)
More pictures to come... :-))
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Next batch...
the bow chaser 3pdr gun enclosure has been marked out with Tamiya tape and chain drilled.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/1676l9l.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2dgq9gy.jpg)
The sternwalk support brass rods tacked in to place with super glue.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/53v1mx.jpg)
The sternwalk floor glued together, using Victorian's method- two thinner floors sandwiching the brass rods to create a strong, resilient section. The eagle eyed members may notice that the ship has been named using plastic letters- Prince George lives again!!!
(http://i40.tinypic.com/xqceqh.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/bj0he.jpg)
I've started to add the supporting brackets from 0.8mm plastic card, drilled in the centre to create the lightening hole.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/282q783.jpg)
I have also built the battery trays and decided to have three 12v 7amp/hr SLA batteries so I don't need to use an inverter to power the 24v foggy unit. I am building the ballast trays into the hull so using maths I have worked out that with the batteries, motors, foggy unit and hull weighs approx 15-18lbs which means that I only need to add 12-14lbs of lead ballast which makes life a bit easier.
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Hi Mick B....when you use term the "sternwalk" ...I assume it has nothing to do with walking........but just to provide a support profile that in plan view would protect the extremities of both props & rudder....is this the case?..................Derek
(http://i40.tinypic.com/xqceqh.jpg)
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everything to do with walking, if you were the captain or high level officer, basically a private deck.. mainly used in port, at anchor or fair weather....
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From the WIKI people.....
"A sternwalk is a balcony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcony) on the outside of the hull on the stern of a ship, usually reserved for the highest-ranking officer on board. They became less common on warships in the twentieth century".
I find this amazingly %% %% %% %% %% %% %% dangerous & questionable :kiss: .....Derek
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All the Queen Elizebeth class had them. in todays culture, it's where the smokers would have to go O0
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>>:-( Absolute rubbish warsipte :embarrassed: in the Majestic Class vessels..... smoking was permitted
On the bridge & in the following ...War Opps Rooms, MCC, FCC, Turrets, BCM, boiler rooms, turbine rooms, auxiliary rooms & steering compartment's etc
Together with Officers & crews mess & quarters
Some exceptions were powder & shell handling rooms.......... <*< ..............
Todays vessels .....do not have or require a stern walk..........but do have as necessary angular tubular buffers over the extremities of the propellers.........Derek
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The stern walk also indicated that the vessel (usually a battleship) was a flagship and was used by the Admiral and his staff since his night quarters were located in the stern (least amount of vibrations and not subject to waves smashing into it like the bows!).
Also regarding the sternwalk HMS Prince George was rammed (accidentally) by her sister HMS Hannibal when they were in the Channel Fleet, off the coast of Spain, Prince George was holed badly below the waterline and was in serious danger of sinking, when she reached Gibraltar the stern walk was awash! She was patched up and returned to Portsmouth to be repaired properly. Prince George did have a reputation of being an unlucky ship she was involved in no less than three collisions involving a battleship (HMS Hannibal), a German Armoured Cruiser (SMS Friedrich Carl), and another British ship- an armoured cruiser (HMS Shannon). One of the only bits of luck she had were during the Dardanelles campaign when she was torpedoed but it failed to explode!
When I was on HMS Edinburgh the deck area beneath the flight deck was used for the smoking area, but not whilst the helo was in use above for obvious reasons. Sternwalks are not needed now because the pomp and ceremony of visiting VIPs do not require cabins anymore with private walkways and the lack of space on modern vessels do not allow for such frivolous decorative features. They are, after all, warships not luxury cruisers or liners but back in the late 1890s it was all part of the prestige of the fleet.
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Statement was in jest, :o though unsure now if they ALL had sternwalks, I remember them on the anatomy books plans.
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Ships with photos showing sternwalks:
Majestic
Caesar
Prince George
Hannibal
Mars
Jupiter
Magnificent
Victorious
Illustrious
Hannibal
Errr .. that's it.
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;) .....are they also not vessels that show a.... "support profile that in plan view would protect the extremities of both props & rudder"......... <*< ...time to get seriously serious O0 ....Derek
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seems I mistook a stern gallery for a stern walk :o , need to get the Ross book out.
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Surely the stern walks were simply a vestige of the old stern galleries provided for captains/admirals on the old wooden walls. Traditionally the men berthed forward and the officers aft with the Royal Marines between them as a sort of buffer.
In the days of the sailing navy this also made sense because the ships were conned and steered from aft on the quarterdeck which was quickly accessible from the officer's quarters. When steam came in designs slowly changed so that ships were conned and steered from the bridge up forward. However the officer's accommodation remained aft by tradition. This was inconvenient as it could be a long walk forward and possibly dangerous in heavy seas and there were experiments whereby the officer accommodation was moved to the bridge area but this proved to be unpopular with both officers and men.
As for comfort, the stern was actually one of the most uncomfortable locations while at sea due to the vibration of the screws directly below but tradition is tradition!
Colin
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Stern walk, HMS Exmouth, sub depot ship(and my school) Scapa Flow during WW2.
Jerry.
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Wavy Navy! Wow, what an amazing picture Jerry. Thanks for posting that!
Presumably the door to the admirals' quarters would have been something like that, but protected by a heavy outer door when at sea.
I had not heard of that Exmouth before. A steel ship, built in the form of an East Indiaman in 1905! Here's the view from outside, found on a site called Worcester III (http://www.hms-worcester.me.uk/page8.html).
(http://www.hands-on-illustrations.co.uk/big/mn/8/8.jpg)
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brings a new meaning to name iron side
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This is how I knew her as HMS Worcester. 1964-66
Jerry.
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Wow, that's some fantastic pictures, it would make a brilliant model especially with the submarine. :-))
Thanks for correcting me Colin, I'll have words with my navy chum for giving me duff info! Never mind I suppose he was pulling my RAF crab leg! {-)
Back to the model...
I was reading and studying the pictures in Brian King's Modelling Late Victorian Battleships hoping to find some reference to torpedo net shelves and was quite surprised to see some pictures of his HMS Magnificent hull side. The torpedo net shelf was not a solid plate as I imagined but was a very intricate and almost decoritve lattice work. I presume that it was for drainage and possibly weight saving it certainly is more challenging to build or replicate without using etch brass. Brian King's model did not have the torpedo nets fitted so it was a lot clearer to see.
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Clearly the "Stern Walk" has been explained by Jerry C...& Colin & is indisputable....having said this, the angular plate on the Majestic Class vessel & mounted over the rudder & propellers has I suggest nothing to do with walking, but is simply a protection device for warships when reversing {-) ......
Colin is also correct when referencing the constant vibrations & drone noise in the aft hull structure created by the propellers.........Derek
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I'm not sure about the 'angular plate' in these ships. Nothing visible in these two pics, unless I'm missing something ...
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O0 ...checkmate to you 'victorian' ..... :o ........these images clearly show a 'walk' area by the stern & access from the quarters of the [assumed] residing senior Officer .......
Again....having said all of this........ >>:-( the angular stern plate depicted by Mick B on his build has little to do with this............ :o Derek
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Regarding torpedo net shelves, this photo of Vengeance makes it clear that they were indeed gratings. I regret not realising that before, because an etched grating would be simple to produce and less potentially damaging to the hull in handling.
All a bit academic if you are going to cover it up with netting of course. The shelves were probably narrower than in some models as well, witness this picture of Triumph, found on this site: http://www.cityofart.net/bship/albion.htm (http://www.cityofart.net/bship/albion.htm)
Edited to say there's some problem with resolving the city of art website here. Google for 'Anti torpedo nets' and you'll see the pic about half way down the article.
(http://www.cityofart.net/bship/hms_triumph_nets.jpg)
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The stern walks on ships were for purely decorative purposes and to provide a space where the Captain and senior offices could meed undisturbed and out of sight of the crew. Their structure was lightweight and indeed some of them were latice like structures on the floor to reduce impact damage from a following upsurging wave. Think of the forces on the sternwalk if a wave hits it? It was not uncommon for them to be damaged during a storm or in some cases ripped off.
In no way were they intended to provide any "bump" protection to the propellers or rudder. A little though will show there is no really effective way to stop an 18,000 ton ship when it hits anything as the kinetic energy will simply crush any structure, or be crushed by any structure it comes into contact with.
All battleships were a mixture or ordinary plating and armour of various thicknesses. The ordinary plating being no tougher than a merchant ship.
As an aside, the problem was if you use thin armour 2"/3" say then it protects the hull from splinter damage but 2"/3" is just the right thickness to detonate an armour piercing shell which would otherwise have passed right through without exploding. Victorian battleships tended to have thin armour at their ends partly to protect against splinters and small arms fire and secondly to act as a support to the ram. Also battleships evolved and originally big guns were very slow at firing so their 6" secondary battery was an integral part of their main armamant and not as we now class it as their secondary armamant. Thin side armour would protect against a 6" shell so was valuable but as time went by and the stamndard 12" guns rate of fire increased it became irrelevant.
In terms of the torpedo shelf I have seen various pictures some appear to be solid with small holes drilled into them and others are indeed a lattice type structure but unfortunatley detailed pictures are quite rare.
On my model of Canopus I have used very thin plywood as the net shelf and this works well because it is always the net shelf that takes the impact! It should probably have been a series of very closley spaced bars as again they would not want the impact of a solid wall of water hitting it and causing damage.
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Well it's been a long week already working 13 hour shifts but at least I'm half way through this week. :-))
Thanks to Victorian and Geoff for answering my question about the the torpedo net shelf, tonight and last night I glued the 1/8" plywood deck to the deck beams using superglue, I realised that some of my filing of the GRP hull was a bit excessive so I've spent tonight adding some plastic and filler to the low points and filed the rest to a nice regular flat level ready for the final deck to be fitted. Looking forward to this weekend to meet everyone at Ron's Open Day on Saturday.
Derek- I'm still not sure to what you are referring to as the angular stern plate, the item I have fitted and made from plastic card and brass which fits on the stern is most definitely the floor of the stern walk or gallery. There are some small brackets that are being glued beneath this to act as the support brackets for the floor of the stern walk. As Geoff has pointed out that the need for protection for the rudder and propellers is rather pointless because of the tonnage and size of the vessel- no piece of metal other armour or hull plating is going to stop a 160000 ton battleship from hitting anything especially reversing into the rudder or propellers.
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OK....granted that a 16,000 ton ship going astern.....etc, but consider a tug boat out of control approaching from the stern :D ....the tug would conveniently hit the stern BOOMERANG or kidney shaped plate before contacting the propellers or rudder <:(
However if a tugboat is out of contention, how about steel cable or ropes.........why do most warship type vessels with propellers that protrude outboard of the plan footprint of the vessel have a curved tubular lattice work over the foot print of each propeller? :((
The location & shape of the plate & it's physical sizing is more than a co-coincidence ........ Derek
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Hi Derek
I think it's just co coincidence, we are thinking from a modern 21st Century point of view instead of a Victorian one. The actual structure is quite flimsy in comparison to the hull or even the props or rudder.
The actual floor print of the stern walk doesn't cover the props and only just covers the rudder, I think they were more for show than any practible purpose. Even on later vessels like the dread noughts they were nothing more than decoration and a tradition dating back from the sailing warships of the 17 and 18 centuries. Judging by the amount of collisions the Prince George was involved with including a ramming from the stern didn't damage the props or rudder, I think the stern walk wouldn't stop much not even a tug!
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http://www.cityofart.net/bship/site_nav.html here's a good time waster, put lots of era photos in one place...(ps I really wish the Brooklyn had a sternwalk, most of the ships she ran with did,)
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I have a theory on how the Majestic Class stern walks were protected. Whilst up at Ron Dean’s Open Day today I learned that one of the submerged torpedo tubes was mounted in the stern.
My rationale on the reason for this was if a nearby ship appears to lose steering control, in a manner likely to cause damage to the stern and vulnerable stern walk, a torpedo could be launched to eliminate the threat, in the much same way that modern Phalanx CIWS close protection guns are used today.
Maybe early torpedoes were not that effective, which is probably why both rear tubes and stern walks were later eliminated.
%% %% %%
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Brilliant concept Bob! Love the idea of someone shouting out the orders for that on the bridge! %% %% :-))
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Brilliant concept Bob! Love the idea of someone shouting out the orders for that on the bridge! %% %% :-))
Or from the Stern Walk ?
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Or from the Stern Walk ?
Thinking about it, it would be the best place to control it from! Up close and personal with situation! {-)
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Well it's been a few weeks since I touched the hull but now the tiring 12hour shifts are over and last weeks barrack block 'bull night' and station commanders inspection is behind me I can make a mess in my room again! :D
After speaking to Colin-d at Ron's open day I have decided to contact the NMM plans section for some original ships plans. After a friendly chat via email with the curator he has suggested buying the 1896 plans as they show more information than the original 1893 versions, so I will be buying a copy of the upper deck, side profile and bridge plans to complement the kits plans. Like Colin's friend in Germany I have now decided to sand off the majority of the raised details like the portholes and the ladder strips and using photos and the plans that I will be getting soon to mark out the new positions, remember that this hull is of Hannibal, one of the last Majestic's to be built whilst Prince George was the third to be built, so the hull fittings would be different- all part of the modelling process, some would call it fun! :-))
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Hi raflaunches and everyone else
I'm enjoying reading this thread and all the extra input is very interesting, great subject
please keep the pic's coming ,
good luck with the rest of the build
spud
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Hi nick, don't point the finger at me.... its not my fault.. lol
but if you would like any of the photo`s you have already seen, drop us a line and i will get them to you..
the ladder strips can also be seen in my Inflexible Build.. :-))
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It's a great plan to get the Admiralty drawings. I hope your'e not opening too big a can of worms!
Not trying to teach egg sucking here but when you transfer the portholes from the Admiralty drawing remember that the are shown in perspective. If you make a printout directly from the plan and drill through it they will be in the wrong place because of the curve of bow and stern. Don't ask how I know that!
I strongly reccomend you get whatever photos the PRO (National Archives) have of Prince George. They usually have pictures dating from the comissioning. The staff there are extremely helpful and will take you on the phone to the correct record which is just as well since their online system is virtually impenetrable. The record will be in a section called ADM / Photographs of Ships and the pictures are usually of very high quality.
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have just fought the predred porthole battle with my brooklyn(photos were a great help in getting correct placement).. painted glass hull(no gellcoat) tom's modelworks photo-etch 16" and my resin cast flap type were glued to the hull (well over 150 combined) the hull was painted with final topcoat colors, sharp scribes and small scrapers were used to define the internal edge and remove paint from what would be the porthole "glass". clear gloss coat with a little dark tint added was then painted to smooth even finish to the "glass" ..
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Hi everyone
I'm glad, that like me, you are enjoying the build so far, and once again thanks for all your support and advice. I dread to think what I have let myself in for {-) , I almost completed my build of the HMS Gnat gunboat then was sent a photo that I would have liked to have seen at the beginning of the 2 year build!
As Victorian points out that pictures show what the ship really looks like there are some hidden detail that are 'blurry' on the usual pictures available (well on the ones I have anyway!) and it's nice to see what some of this is. When I saw the build by Colin-d's friend, I was initially overwhelmed by not only the quality but by the amount of extra detail that you can't normally see with out the original plans. I learnt this from the Gnat build when comparing the modelling plans with the admiralty versions and WOW what a difference! I'm not going to do every nut and bolt or rivet but enough to busy the hull up a bit.
The only problem I envisage is that the build of Prince George will take a little longer than originally thought ;) but that will much more fun for all of us- I'm sure?!! {-)
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I think we've discussed this already but I finally got my back ordered copy of Burt's British Battleships 1889 - 1904 from Amazon yesterday. Bizzarrely this was at a new reduced price of £27.90! A true bargain for anyone interested in the Pre-Dreanought era. My eyes go out of focus when I get to the part on Mars so I can't see the discrepancies too clearly. I hope he's not doing a book on Protected Cruisers.
Incidentally Niobe will be on the Northampton SME stand at the Midlands Model Engineering show next week if I can get the rigging done by then!
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One thing to remember about the Victorian/Edwardian pre-dreadnoughts was that many ships fittings were designed to be moveable, steam winches, booms and the like which complicates the issue somewhat!
Remember cowling vents were rotatable in many cases and removeable in others when the ship went into action.
There is a book available on Edwardian crusiers by Friedman I think, which is quite interestinf and worth purchasing. Have you seen a copy of The Royal Navy at Malta 1865 to 1906? This is a large format book full of pictures of Victorian pre-dreanoughts taken by a local photographer/family on glass negatives. It's a very nice reference book, more of a general nature but still very interesting.
Enjoy
Cheers
Geoff
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There is a book available on Edwardian crusiers by Friedman
Doh! Exactly what I was afraid of. Well it's too late. Niobe is as complete as she's going to be and going to the MMEE show today. Any revisions due to what looks like an excellent book (On order, £25) will have to wait.
Thanks for that reference, all the same.
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2016130 a few photos and links on predred activities over here.. white and buff brightens the day!!!!
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Hi everyone
Don't worry I haven't fallen off the edge of the world- though it felt like it!!! :D
I have just spent the last week holidaying in South Devon/Dorset near Lyme Regis, the only downside being the absolutely terrible phone and internet signal. It took me several hours to read some of the posts on this thread due to poor download speed in the area! However, I have taken notes and have ordered the book suggested by Geoff so I am looking forward to it arriving sometime next week. Whilst twiddling my thumbs waiting for the signal to return I have read cover to cover R.A Burt's British Battleships 1889 to 1904, and as Victorian has pointed out it's a fantastic read especially the chapter referring to the Majestic class but the others are just as good.
With regards to the build to far I have ordered the plans last Saturday so I am just waiting for them to arrive in the next couple of weeks- fingers crossed for this week! :-))
Thanks for the pictures and suggestions- Victorian hope you enjoyed yourself at the Engineer's Show at Warwick, the Friedmann book is also excellent covering the Pelorus class and the 'Niobe' but your models are brilliant and the pictures are good in the book but you can't see as much detail as you would lie to see- the problem of too many men wanting to have their picture taken getting in the way of all that important stuff that us modellers like to see!
I'll be looking through the Majestic section again tonight... can't keep away! :}
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Well guess who was a very happy chap this morning? ok2
My plans arrived this morning and I was eager to see what I had spent my money on and needless to say I'm not disappointed. For anyone considering buying this particular set of Majestic drawings they are from 1895/6 and were modified in 1904 denoted in brown ink it helpfully states on the corner- unfortunately I have black and white copies so can't see what the actual modifications were but in conjunction with pictures I have bought and been sent by Victorian I can start the build again. In addition the drawings do show the torpedo net shelves in the original position on the upper deck, and it's not what I expected, I'll try to get a decent picture of them to show what I mean but at least some of the items in the old photos are a lot clearer now once you can see what they are meant to be! Another piece of info I was made aware of by Colin-d were the positions of the five torpedo tubes, the drawing clearly shows the stern tube directly beneath the stern walk, his friend in Germany has already made his torpedo tube so I was treated at Deans Marine open days to his fantastic build pictures- can't thank you enough Colin for sharing those pictures.
Plans for this week- go to print shop and have drawings reduced from 1/48 scale to 1/96!
- mark out the portholes and other details on the GRP hull
- remove some of my previous detail (stern walk support brackets) and replace.
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Hi everyone
I managed to get some shots of the plans- not easy due to their physical size! Two of them are almost 9ft long!
Any way, I have concentrated on the stern walk and stern section to show the admiral's walkway and the stern torpedo tube, the final picture is of the torpedo net shelves, I thought that they would be one continuous length but as you will see they are split up in to many shorter lengths.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2j0mff5.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/102m7tc.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/28s4uxe.jpg)
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If I'd had those drawings when I built Mars it still wouldn't be finished.
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If I am interpreting the drawings correctly, in the plan view we have two elliptical deck plates equally off axis with the centreline of the hull, then in the stdb aft elevation view we see one pipe angled down at about 40 degrees
Are these the hawse pipes for stern anchor chains?........
It would be fascinating spend a few hours viewing old engineering drawing detail.......Derek
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Corrtect!
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the final picture is of the torpedo net shelves, I thought that they would be one continuous length but as you will see they are split up in to many shorter lengths.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/28s4uxe.jpg)
So if I understand the lowest drawing correctly, the net shelves are only sited where gun positions are sited right up to the deck edge?
So ordinarily, the net shelf is inboard of the deck edge and because the gun positions now occupy some of that deck edge area, the have had to fashion net shelving that protrudes from the side o the ship.
Why was the net shelf hatched out? Was it removed during her life span and had her plans altered to this affect?
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Hi Pondweed
You've pointed out another unusual feature of the net shelves which I was going to ask about, why were they not continuous?
The cross hatched areas are, I think, the alterations made in brown ink mentioned on the top corner of the drawings. After reading RA Burt's book British Battleships 1889 to 1904 and talking to other mayhemers the net shelves were relocated to the main deck level below the 6inch case mates in 1904 as part of a class modification, probably easier to deploy them or easier to use the 6inch guns.
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Nick B.... engineering Drawing convention over the past say 100 years is that if a section or component is made redundant or eliminated, the exact areas are outlined & cross hatched as shown below with those three rectangles along the deck edge ....and a reference text describing what, when, why & how etc they were removed should appear somewhere on the Drawing...... so depending on the time line you are modelling would determine if you were to include or leave the elements out.....Derek
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Yes the diagonal 'lines' through the plan lines is how drawings were modified in early 20th C as I've seen this before a few times. Derek, does the colour of the hatching have any special meaning?
RAFL, of course, the original plan is in colour... the NMM only prints the plans in b&w.
I've only ever met continuous net shelving... some of it is pierced with holes/slots and some is a plain, flat sheet... but reading up on it, if you go to page one of this thread and look at the image of Vengeance, the heads of the net booms poke through between the shelving. This is the correct way to house the booms on these ships and explains the spaces in the shelf.
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Hi Pondweed
I've just looked through the pictures of Vengeance and its like a light bulb has switched itself on-it all makes sense now! :-))
Judging by Brian King's book- Modelling Late Victorian Battleships- he represents the net shelves in this way but you can't see whats beneath them because either the picture is cropped or too fuzzy to see the net booms.
I have, in my career so far in the RAF, only used and seen aircraft drawings to work from so understanding how the Admiralty and ship designers/builders show modifications and changes is completely new to me. In the aircraft world they draw a completely new drawing but obviously the size difference between aircraft and ships is the main point which prevents ship drawings being produced like this years ago.
To get back to the model, I will be building her as new or at least before 1904 before all the changes happened. So this will mean that the torpedo net shelves will be on the upper deck level and she will be in her original Victorian black, white and buff colour scheme.
On another note which Colin-d might know, with regards to his friends build, the stern torpedo tube is shown on the drawing but on the picture of 'Magnificent' earlier in this thread you can't actually see the tube door but my engineering understanding of the plans would seem to show it above the waterline- any ideas?
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you can't actually see the tube door
I suggest that you can. There's defintely an elongated cover extending from the waterline to the gallery, that ties up with a feature shown on the plan. Not a submarine type door, but something that matelots would have unbolted from the inside perhaps.
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Hi Victorian
I must be going blind %%
Can't believe that I missed it, I think it was that I was expecting a round or oval exit like a submarine like you said but after closer inspection of the drawings and the picture my best guess is that a cover slides up to reveal the actual tube itself- the sliding door as I will call it has a groove or slot which I can now see on the picture and the drawing.
I got the plans back today from the print shop to reduce them by 50%, for a start when I compared them to the hull I thought that they had reduced them too much- they looked tiny compared the model, but after careful measuring I found them to be correct- my worst dimensions were the beam being out by just under 2mm, my hull is 1.85mm wider than the beam on the plans but its acceptable!!! ;)
Looking at the smaller plans you can start to see how small the torpedo net shelves really are, some careful modelling will be required using brass maybe needed to get them to look the part!
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Hi Nick,
The plans look great- really good to have such detailed information on the ship, should make for an excellent model.
Have you thought about etching the torpedo net shelves? (to add to the numerous sheets in the kit!) Might be a bit fragile for collisions though. I'm currently drawing out the cranes for Suffolk for etching, will see how it goes...
James
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Hi James
I hope I can do justice to the real vessel by making a good model using the kit and drawings together! :-))
I have thought about the net shelves and possible materials to make them from, etched brass does seem to be the way forward for detail and ease of use, how are you doing your etched parts?
I'm taking the model back to work this week to start building again, she will be worked on in between the work on the Gnat's crew in preparation for the Warwick show.
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sorry for the late reply Nick, things to do and places to be at, those sort of excuses.
by the way my friend is following this thread...
here's a photo of my friends Hannibal showing the rear torpedo hatch.
hope this helps :-))
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Hi Colin
Thanks for the picture, hope your friend is enjoying the build so far, and the banter between us all!
And of course hope his build is going well too.
I have started to mark out the portholes and other hull mounted fittings on the hull using the drawings and pictures. Filing and drilling will take place soon once I'm sure everything is right or I think is right! :-))
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sorry for the late reply Nick, things to do and places to be at, those sort of excuses.
by the way my friend is following this thread...
here's a photo of my friends Hannibal showing the rear torpedo hatch.
hope this helps :-))
Very nice! :-))
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Hello everyone, my name is Michael and I have been following the building report for quite some time.
I`m from Germany, so excuse my bad English first. My school time is at least 27 years ago. But I hope, that you will understand me. I am a friend of colin-d and I also build the "HMS Hannibal" from the deans marine kit. Some of the photos have indeed shown here already by colin. Additionally, for the most parts I use the admiralty plans and the original builders plans. Now I have finished the hull, both the technology as well as "outside". The main gun turrets are ready too. I add a photo of my rear torpedo tube and my "solution" for the torpedo net shelf.
Michael
Welcome to the madhouse known as Mayhem. Ive edited out your Font characters for an easier read
cheers
ken
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Welcome Michael
I must admit I have admired your work from a far via our mutual friend Colin. When he showed me your work in progress of HMS Hannibal I was, and still are, stunned by your modelling skills. Your model looks fantastic. :-))
Thank you for sharing your pictures of your build, Colin was showing me your work for over an hour during the Deans Marine open days earlier this year, and it was due to you and him that I decided to take the kit one stage further and bought a copy of the Admiralty plans.
During the model boat show at Warwick last weekend I bought some more propellers, this time from Prop Shop, I asked Simon and on the Sunday he showed me set of fine pitch Victorian era propellers 48mm in diameter which match the admiralty plans almost perfectly. But I was warned by Simon that I shouldn't expect great things from them, whilst they are more accurate in profile they will be very inefficient compared to the ones that are currently fitted to my model. I'll upload some picture of them when I get home on Friday (my photo provider is very slow at downloading in Norfolk!).
This evening I have started to mark out the port hole positions relevant to HMS Prince George, and I have made the starboard ash chutes from plastic card. I will be drilling out the port holes tomorrow night and sand down the hull to remove what is left.
Keep up the good work Michael, I'm very impressed with your build.
Regards
Nick B
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Nick B....talking about propeller's......."whilst they are more accurate in profile they will be very inefficient compared to the ones that are currently fitted to my model"
May be of lesser efficiency Nick.....but will add greater realism :-)) .....& after all it's not being built as a model speed boat........Derek
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Does inefficiency have to be about less speed though?
Dave
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Why not fit the 'accurate' ones on for 'show' and change to 'efficient' ones for go. Who can see them under water when she is sailing anyway. Its not a big job to change them as required. From my experience of sailing a Majestic class its good have a bit of extra speed to get out of the way of others. The manoeuverabilty of the Majestic is poor to say the least so having some extra help from some good props is a good idea. Graham.
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Nice to see you at the weekend Nick and Capt Povey. Regarding the poor manoeverability, do you include differential motors in that? Mars has the rudder channel linked to the drive and can rotate in her own length. She even won a manoevering competition somewhere! I have a switch on the Tx to disable the differential and return to rudder only because at full power, any rudder input slows one of the motors which is visible in the model's headway. The radio is an old Futaba 2.4Ghz which I bought because it had V-tail mixing, but it seems the Chinese are waking up to this and one radio I saw recently had mixing possibilities on all channels.
Edited to say my props are prop shop 'Victorian' pattern and fairly coarse. The original ship had quite narrow chord blades. I think you need all the power you can get in a model because of swans (a bit like the real ship meeting an Ekranoplanz!) and I don't advise swapping them routinely because I lost one in the drink through relying on a locknut instead of Loctite. An important reason for using Propshop is that they will make an odd prop to your spec of thread etc.
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Hi Victorian, I agree, {:-{ it was certainly good to see you and Nick at the weekend, renew friendships and put faces to names. I fitted my Caesar with Action Electronics P94 and use the mixing facility on that so I do get motor control linked to rudder movement. It certainly helps but I can't turn in my own length even when one prop is going forward and the other is reversed. I agree with your comment about lost props but as I only seem to sail Caesar once a year it would not be a big problem for me. Cheers, Graham. :-))
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Just a wee note on 'nyloc nuts'.
They are designed to be used ONCE, only.
If you undo them, do not re-use.
Use a new one, as they do loosen their grip each time they are placed on a thread.
cheers
vnkiwi :-))
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Hi everyone
Must agree with Victorian and Capt Povey , it was very good to see you both, I certainly enjoyed your chats over the weekend.
With regards to the fine pitch props, they have almost no pitch whatsoever and the blade area is incredibly tiny compared to a standard prop. The easiest way to describe them is to compare them to the daisy flower petals, very thin and narrow. At the show they were described, rather mocked, as Spitfire props or more worryingly Walrus propellers!
Derek, to answer your query Simon of prop shop said that they were inefficient compared to standard props, meaning that it would require more power to achieve the same outcome as normal props. This is due to the reduced blade area and the very fine pitch.
When I come to equip the model with the electronics, I will be using two 15amp speed controllers, one per motor because I am using my Robbe F14 Navy Twin Stick radio which allows individual motor control. I am also fitting a 24v foggy unit Mk 2 to provide the 'steam'. I will be using two 12v SLA batteries to power the foggy unit and one 12v SLA to power the motors.
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As promised pictures of the new props
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2q00iue.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2drbcrp.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/2uzsc93.jpg)
Pictures of the first ash chute, the tamiya tape isn't there to hold the chute on, it's to mark out the torpedo net booms!
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2eyxrwn.jpg)
(http://i44.tinypic.com/jutyz7.jpg)
My pencil lines mark out the locations of the torpedo net shelves
The start of the mass of port holes drilled out to 4mm.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2na683b.jpg)
And finally, my latest picture of HMS Prince George, her forecastle deck.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2cq08ya.jpg)
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Nick.....propeller speed is a real can of worms....... ;D .....the higher the blade surface area, the greater the power requirement to rotate, but in our model application also the greater the current draw or a lower speed....using propeller blades with a smaller surface area provides is a direct opposite to power, current & speed
If they look prototypical they are the best solution..... :-)) ....propeller speed, steerage & current draw will be confirmed only during sea trials........ {-) Derek
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Joined this one a little late :(( , lookin' great :-))
Mark
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The start of the mass of port holes drilled out to 4mm.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2na683b.jpg)
If you need to, tape a metal or wood strip along the hull with the top edge level with the bottom of the porthole 'hole' so the drill bit has something to rest on. You get a neater line.
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That's a very good thought process pondweed O0
Nick...we can see the horizontal waviness now....it will only get worse >:-o
You have the chance now to bog all of those porthole drillings up & redrill on line.......
It will be worth it :-)) .......Derek
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One way to do this would be to tape a piece of brass sheet offcut just below the centreline of the moulded holes and then drill the pilot holes against it. In Niobe I scanned the Admiralty drawing and printed it out, cut a strip with the portholes in and taped that to the side. Trouble is I forgot the forshortening effect of perspective and didn't realise until a drilling clashed with something else. It is easy to correct that in CAD if your brain is in gear!
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That's a very good thought process pondweed O0
Nick...we can see the horizontal waviness now....it will only get worse >:-o
You have the chance now to bog all of those porthole drillings up & redrill on line.......
It will be worth it :-)) .......Derek
I know it's late but it was said in the faint hope the above was just a test strip and the other 80% of them aren't drilled. %)
Anyway, I just wish someone would have told me this before I did mine.
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Thanks for the advice
Had hoped that the eagle eyed amongst you hadn't spotted my mistake! :D
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Hi everyone
After the wavy line of portholes was spotted, I have engaged in the delicate art of correcting my mistakes!
Some fibreglass will be pushed on the inside of the hull, and some filler applied in preparation for some jiggling with the drill. I realised that I had missed about three portholes and using the recommended method I have drilled them out and applied some filler.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2s0xssp.jpg)
I have also started on the starboard forward hull ladder using the technique that Colin-d taught me at Ron's open days- using 0.5mm square micro strip and 0.5x0.25mm micro strip.
The GRP moulding was a little indistinguishable so I chose to sand them off and replace them using the plastic micro strip.
You can just make out my prototype porthole using a piece of 4mm diameter Perspex rod and a brass tube pushed into the GRP hull.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/jihxyc.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2ex25ao.jpg)
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Nice work on the hull ladder. Detail fabricated looks so much better than moulded in.
Portholes are challenging, especially getting the positioing spot on as a smidge out of line becomes very visible. For mine I drilled 2mm holes then opened up by eye with a round rifler to fit perspex rod plugs.
The brass surrounds looks really good on 'victorian's HMS Niobe.
Excellent progress :-))
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Hi Bob
Thanks for the positive comments, as I found out, just a slight lapse in attention and the drill slips that little bit, didn't help me being a bit tired at the time! :embarrassed: I'm temporarily working for a front line squadron and they work all hours of the day… and night!
I'm trying my best to use the skills I've picked up from yourself, Victorian, and Colin-d, (and everyone else) to get a decent finish on the hull. My aim is to get the hull and main superstructure complete for the Mayhem next year- she'll look like a Majestic- just not fully detailed! :-))
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The brass surrounds looks really good on 'victorian's HMS Niobe.
Yeah, but... (Thanks for the compliment!)
The etched eyebrows and rims are designed to soak up all the drilling 'float' that Nick is telling us about. By putting them on after the hull is painted you can correct for some of those errrors. The're probably a bit coarse and I left them unpainted in the style of a builder's model. Also I wanted the ones with the gratings for the anchor chain area and etching was the only way to do it. I prob have some spares left over Nick....
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Hi everyone
Back on track now with the hull detailing, after many an hour studying the pictures I have and even many more I have been sent by mayhem members, I have started to glue what can only be described as a decorative rubbing strip. This has been made from 5mm square plastic rod, and using the admiralty drawings as a reference, I marked out each of the 'cut-outs'. I used a small rectangular diamond file and a mitre mate to file a 5mm groove into the plastic, filing out to about 2.5mm. When I had finished I went over the strip with some fine wet and dry sand paper to round off the edges. Luckily the GRP hull has the line required for this rubbing strip marked on the hull as a raised strip which runs to either end of the 'armour' plating. With a bit of super glue I slowly glued the strips to the GRP hull and using a metal rule I ensure this time that it was perfectly straight, not like my earlier attempt at drilling portholes!
(http://i40.tinypic.com/20069m0.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2e5nk0w.jpg)
I have started to create the deck capping strip, I cut out the sycamore 1/64" ply pre-lasercut deck supplied in the kit, and to my horror it looked incredibly small compared to my deck area. Know that everyone else who had made their models of the Majestic class had not mentioned any problems with the decks I quickly studied one of the few clear deck shots I have of the Majestic class I was quietly relieved to find out that the capping strip was very wide, the wooden deck is not as wide as on later ships. So some 1mm thick plastic card supplied in the kit was cut down in to 4mm wide strips and I started to glue them to the deck. Around the anchor beds, the strip widens further, to find out the required amount I laid the thin veneer deck on to the deck and carefully marked around it and put the lovely deck back into its protective sleeve.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/33e6jcm.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2wbxkjl.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/1zoe140.jpg)
I have also made what I thought were ash chutes but I was corrected that the two smaller chutes are not for ash but more for toilet waste, which is why they extend below the waterline.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/f3ruab.jpg)
The aft chute is made from 5mm square plastic rod rounded off and glued to a piece of 0.25mm plastic card sheet which is fraction wider than the chute itself. The forward chute will be constructed in this way too when I get round to building it.
P.S. the picture above from the starboard beam shows what looks like two tripod masts, don't worry they are not for this project!!! They are glued to my model of HMS Coventry behind the Prince George, she is resting whilst I get my sanity back- I was gluing individual strips of 1/64" ply only 2mm wide and 54mm long to the forecastle, almost done, only another 4ft to go! %%
Oh, and the room it sits is my the room I live in at work, not an ideal place to work- too many regular inspections by the Station Commander, have to keep it incredibly clean, mind you the models do distract him from looking too far into my room! :-))
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One place to look for clues on how the edge of the deck might have appeared is the battleship 'Texas' preserved in Houston. Below is a pitifully poor snap of the foc'sle, but I'm sure much better ones can be found on t'internet.
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Hello Nick
I had the same problem. The deck was too small for the hull. However, I still had the old printed wood deck. Ron Dean then sent me the first prototype laser deck, but that was also too small, as it had the print of the old wood decks as a template. Then I decided to lay individual deck planks. I got the laser-cut wood planks of deans marine. After my hull is finished as far as from the outside, I'm going on with the deck next.
However, in the meantime I started with the 56 feet steam launches. I want to detailed them a little more
greeting
Michael
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If I can makes some observations about making port holes that perhaps our online experts might wish to comment on.
Firstly Nick is doing an excellent job. Love this thread.
Creating precise holes in a well clamped sheet of flat Perspex or ABS is totally unlike a curved fibreglass hull that may have a slight surface texture, a hard outer skin, and an irregular interior mix of strands and resin. Even if the drill starts spot on it is likely to drift off line going through. Start small then open up by hand.
I like Victorians solution. Personally I used J R Haynes porthole eyebrows over the Perspex rod blanks. Looking at the Hannibal photos earlier these might be ideal. Just a suggestion.
Nice work on the rubbing strips and deck edging. :-))
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Hi Bob K/Michael B/Victorian
Thank you for your kind comments and support with my build, I went to Mobile Marine Model's Christmas Cracker yesterday and collected my brass stanchions from Ron. They are fantastic little fittings, only 11mm tall and have 3 balls! I ordered 200 so hopefully I have enough to line the deck edges and some left over for the superstructure, fingers crossed! :-))
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Here's an idea: put a strip of hardwood between the deck capping strip and your planking. On the real thing, it was called a 'spurnwater'. I don't have a 'deck capping strip' around my deck edge, I just have the hardwood spurnwater.
My flag staffs are just placed in dry fit. Both brass uprights should have 3 eyelets for the guardrails, a eyelet higher up for the awning stanction line while the rear has the bracket that holds a lamp. suspended by a line. They both hold a wooden flagstaff out to one side.
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Pondweed. Clearly a picture of Lion. Can we have more details and/or another thread. Is she to 1/96 scale and will she be finished in time for the anniversary of Jutland?
Cheers
Geoff
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Hi Pondweed
Thanks for the suggestion, I have spotted a spurnwater on one of my photos so that will do brilliantly to cover the gap between the deck and the capping strip.
I, too, would like to say what an amazing model of HMS Lion, from what I can see the detail is fanstastic.
I'm interested in building a 1/96 scale HMS Warspite from 1916 just before her infamous duel with the German Navy! The project is a long way away but who knows it might be finished for the 110th anniversary of Jutland!
Returning to the Prince George I have drilled out the aft portholes on the starboard side, straight and level this time! :}
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Thanks chaps. It's known around here as HMS Unfinsihed. I took the pics of these as they turned out well and was quite proud of them.
I forgot to mention these will be amoung the first things broke off it so the wood pole lifts out of the two 'clamps' so I can replace them. A strip of thin wire holds the brass upright into the deck, the idea being that there's now 'give' in it and any knocks and I'll be able to bend it back. The bracing arms probably won't be attached to the deck and simply rest upon it.
I will give thought to a build thread.
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Hi RL
I came upon these links to 2 models so thought I'd post them here as they are your area. First is a model of Hindustan that seems to be in a church on Lundy Isle (I confess to not reading the page).
The second is a model of the cruiser HMS Hogue in a Canadian museum. The page has 16 podcasts giving a brief talk on each? model, HMS Hogue is No6.
http://www.ago.net/thomson-ship-models-podcast (http://www.ago.net/thomson-ship-models-podcast)
Maybe you will have more success at finding images of the Hogue model than I? I found these 2:
(http://www.seemsartless.com/photos/full/ago-thomson-hogue.jpg)
(http://www.ago.net/assets/images/556/106339-594.jpg)
There's another modeller on this board who seeks out these builders models so ...
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The model of Hindustan was removed from Lundy Island to the Glasgow museums store a few years ago. I don't know if it is on display in the new museum, but it was in poor condition after perhaps a century on the Island.
I didn't now about the Hogue model in Ontario - thanks! There's a very similar model of Cressy in the Ships of the Sea Museum in Savannah, Georgia - pic attached.
So far I have not been able to discover any builders model of a Majestic class battleship. If anyone knows differently, please advise!
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Hi Pondweed
Thanks for the pictures, I too will look through my collections for any pictures of Hogue. It certainly is an impressive builders model.
This week I have been drilling the port side portholes so not really huge developments, However whilst I was waiting for some filler to dry I did cut out the forward 'hooded barbette' mounting base and the actual hood itself. The base plate is from the 1mm plastic card template supplied in the kit and the vacform sheet. The hood is also a vac form piece and after some careful marking and cutting, I have removed a majority of the excess plastic and I am in the process of using sand paper taped to the table and carefully sanding it off, ensuring that it remains level.
The barrels are resin items that have hollowed out muzzles, they sit in a specially created mount supplied in the kit as a vac form item.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/1zzndrt.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/qnpnrc.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2je7fi8.jpg)
I will be bringing the model home for Christmas to continue the build at home with my Dad's HMS X1 for company!
Happy Christmas everyone! :-))
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Hi everyone
I'm having a brilliant time building this week, I'll share my pictures with you this weekend. :-))
Anyway, whilst I physically building the hull I'm looking into a couple of features such as rotating armoured barbettes (turrets). Looking at what I've got to play with I have-
- 1mm plastic card base plate
- A vacuform upper base plate or mounting base
- A vacuform turret
- 1mm plastic card turntable (sits beneath the vacuform turret)
- X2 solid resin gun barrels
- A 2inch (50mm) gap beneath the main deck
- Robbe 7 channel tx
- Robbe modules which allow servo movement and flick switches to be used
Anyone got any recommendations for the use of the above items and if I use servos to rotate the turrets what type or make are best for the job?
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Hi everyone
Did everyone enjoy Christmas? I did, I now have an almost ready model to carry out radio control trials on a nice calm lake- hopefully this Sunday!
Over the last couple of weeks I have been mainly concentrating on the running gear, the 12v car heater motors are now firmly attached to the hull and the prop shafts, the brackets are made from aluminium sheet.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2nqacyp.jpg)
In this picture you can see the speed controller and rx mounts, the holes are for the screw heads that are beneath the Electronize ESCs so they can sit flush. Beneath these mounts are lead ballast boxes that are permanently glued in place.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/5upjyf.jpg)
In the next pictures is the rudder tiller arm, the rudder swings quite nicely with the servo in control. The box that the servo sits on is another ballast box containing about 7lb of lead
(http://i39.tinypic.com/25rmfcx.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/30tiha8.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2im841x.jpg)
Over all the model weighs 35-6lbs with enough space for an extra 2-3lbs of trimming ballast.
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You've made a nice job of the internals. Very tidy!!! I tend to just jamb it all in there as it won't be seen.
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Hi Pondweed
I think it's the RAF techie in me to keep it neat and tidy- I think they train us to be OCD!
One thing I did learn today was not to trust second hand speed controllers, especially after fitting them and routing all the wires nicely. I couldn't get them to set up, one wouldn't play at all and stayed on full speed whatever the adjustment, the other could only be described as lethargic in response and the power being let through. After some investigation I found out that these particular ESC had not been made for quite a few years and was made as a kit. If anyone has any info on Electronize Type43HX ESC I would very grateful.
Anyway, I took out the old ESCs and fitted a pair I have used before and knew to work- two Electronize FR30X- and wired them as best I could considering everything had been routed for the other ESCs!
After rewire this morning I tested everything, both motors spun inwards, the rudder swung left and right correctly, and the foggy unit produced good quantities of 'steam vapour'. I even ensured the props are on the right sides to prevent any embarrassing mishaps at the lake tomorrow! :embarrassed:
I cut out the upper deck funnel housing for the foggy unit funnel and then cut out the fibreglass area on the superstructure to create the spar deck.
(http://i43.tinypic.com/2mqkk9l.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2iayblx.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/j6uf05.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/211jgu8.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2wr3tcj.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/28mol06.jpg)
Looks a bit odd at the moment, but I will be making a modified funnel for the foggy unit to create the twin funnels. Wish me luck she's going going for a test drive tomorrow if the weather holds... :-))
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for christ sake Nick, put some lego workyard figures or a penguin on her!!!
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Klunk, didn't you hear? My Lego work force has gone on strike! {-) And what can I say about the penguins, they are refusing to go near the model whilst my dog is in the vicinity, he's already captured one of them! %%
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lol, nothing for it then, you'll have to put your dad on it!!!
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Ha ha
He's refusing to touch it too, I think he doesn't want his name anywhere near it if it fails! I'll prove him wrong, after all how many Tornados have crashed since I started working on them, second thoughts better not! Dads laughing at me because my props don't seem to have much pitch or area so he reckons it will be all steam and no go! {-)
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trial and error
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Hello everyone
On the crisp frosty/icy morning of Sunday 28th December 2013 at 1045hrs HMS Prince George was launched and given steam trials at Wicksteed Park model boat lake. In company was the four funnelled cruiser HMS Niobe protecting the new battleship whilst she worked up. Mayhem member Victorian controlled 'Niobe' to ensure the still un-painted battleship 'Prince George' came to no harm, especially from the likes of 'Chuffy's' Lady Woos tug and 'Bikerdude's' HMS Canada who were prowling around the launch site!
The new battleship responded well despite initial thoughts about her scale propellers from the likes of my Dad and turned with minimal use of the rudder. After 20minutes however, disaster occurred on the port prop shaft…
After many low speed runs the Prince George turned towards the harbour for a fast run to see what her ram bow looked like, but she seemed lethargic in the turn and then only responded on the starboard prop! With the high speed run aborted with Niobe fending off the predators I discovered that the port drive coupling was slipping letting the motor spin uselessly in it's housing.
The un-armed battleship returned to harbour with only one running prop shaft…
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2ai3813.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/fdhlvk.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2wgb39s.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/287hn3l.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/ejbzt1.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/20icjmu.jpg)
But she at least works, so sort out prop shaft coupling and she will back on the water when she is painted (and armed with her 12inch guns). Thanks to Victorian with his assistance at the lake today, and his many helpful ideas he has given me. :-))
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Congratulations Nick! It was great to be of service. I suggest we sail to the Med next time, in place of the Arctic. Brrr!
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Looking good.
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Wow! I just popped over the Irish Sea for Xmas and whilst I have been away so much progress, even to the first sea trials !!! Well done :-))
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Congratulations Nick! It was great to be of service. I suggest we sail to the Med next time, in place of the Arctic. Brrr!
Agreed, it was colder than I thought it was but suppose the ice was a dead give away! At least the hull is the right colour for the China Station!
Hi Bob
You certainly missed the big launch, but the embarrassing mishap with the port prop shaft got more embarrassing... the coupling was not spinning, the lock nut was not tight and the shaft had unwound off the coupling! :embarrassed:
Today and last night I decided to look at the drawings again and realised that the 3pdr gun ports in the hull on the earlier Majestic's were a different shape compared to the later Hannibal, Illustrious and Caesar,etc.
I filed off the the moulded in detail (sorry Ron)- I did try to change the shape with a file but made such a mess of it I decided to replace them all with litho-plate sheet!
At least I can use the etched brass hinges from the kit, there is a lot of them!
I finished off the toilet waste chutes on the starboard side using 4mm square plastic strut and some 0.1mm plastic sheet.
And finally the steps/ladder blocks on the hull are being started again, I had to buy to some very fine tweezers to hold the tiny 0.5mm square and 0.25x0.75mm plastic strut, I have to stop after 6 steps are made to stop me going cross-eyed! {-)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/692usj.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2lnfy4i.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/142x015.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2vx3x3l.jpg)
P.S. Thanks Steve, hope you are enjoying the build as much as I am!
A better image of the mighty un-painted battleship HMS Prince George, thanks to Paul Millers aka Chuffy for the picture.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/293yqg6.jpg)
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Well what a right berk!
My fault analysis was correct, the port prop shaft lock nut behind the coupling was loose, the shaft works again! :embarrassed:
So I took her upto full throttle, but remembering that the port holes were open to water at the moment so before full chat was applied I manoeuvred the model into calm waters (yes there are some at Wicksteed!).
I discovered that as I pushed the throttles through the forward command, the model responded well with regards to speed until approximately 2/3rds full throttle the model stopped accelerating and maintained a constant speed. So with regards to the props they are good enough for initial and cruising speed but they reach their maximum potential at 2/3rds applied power. Not bad for Victorian designed props. :-))
So now she sits on the work bench ready for the next build phase.
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love these early warships and I am enjoying your progress keep up the good work.
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Hi hazegry
Thanks for the compliment, its nice to see forum members enjoy my build as much as I am. :-))
The model is going back to my barrack block room tonight for the next phase of the build, that's if I can get back due to the nasty weather we are expecting.
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Hello Nick,
if you want to build the Hannibal more scale like, you must sand down most of the details on the hull (I sanded down every details only to rebuild them with photoetched parts). Your rebuild of the forward 12 pounder qf gun port looks very good. I can see that you rebuild the doors for the searchlight at the front, too. Do you made it in two peaces? (The original was made in three).
You have god an interesting steam7smoke generator. Did it made "good steam"? I´m searching for a good one for my Hannibal , too. (Most steam generators wich you can get at the stores make only a little smoke)
Michael
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Hello Michael
It's good to hear from you, hope you had a good Christmas in Germany.
I followed your advice via Colin East about the hull detailing, I have ended up sanding all the raised detail off after my little mess up trying to re-shape one of the 12pdr gun ports. I'm in the process of replacing the moulded ladder blocks with plastic card strip, once again shown to me by Colin of your build.
The searchlight doors (thank you for reminding me what they are) are made of a single piece of litho plate but to recreate the three piece door I have scored the litho plate with a scriber and glued the item back to front so the recess caused by the scriber is the glued side. The etched brass hinges are yet to be attached.
I have used a Marks Model Bits ( MMB) Foggy Unit Mk 1 for the smoke generator which runs on 24volts, it works better indoors but when the wind is calm enough a good amount of 'smoke' can be seen. There are newer versions on the market now but I have been shown how to make one of my own which produces more smoke than a commercial unit. I'll post some pictures of the home made version if I can get it to work! Hope your build is going well and hope to hear from you again. :-))
This week I have been concentrating on the stern walk again, after some studying of the drawings again I realised that my walkway was too low, I have cut off the old one and made a new one from the 1mm plastic card supplied in the kit but this time raised 5mm higher. After relocation was completed I cut out the guard rail for the port side. The kit supplies more than enough rail so after some careful measuring I cut off the excess and carefully using tweezers, I subtly curved the etched brass around the stern walk edge, you have to remember that the hull is curved inwards too, and luckily before I glued it I rememberer this too!
Using short strips of tamiya tape I glued little sections at a time and then using the tape to hold the rail in place whilst the glue dried. Once the glued had dried fully I removed the tape and sanded down the excess, and I must admit that it's one of the best of gluing I have done for ages- the brass guard rail is level and not bent out of shape, so I am a very happy modeller!
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ye ye ye.... Nick, just point the finger at me again... i have wide shoulders... I'll catch up with you again, at this years OpenDays %)
you doing a grand job there Nick,
if you require any other usefull/useless ideas from me... you know were i am.. :-))
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Hi Colin
Hope you don't mind me sharing both useful/useless ideas, they are far better than some of mine! :D
I've already got my leave planned for this year so fingers crossed we will meet again the open days.
Here is my port side sternwalk guard rail...
(http://i40.tinypic.com/33nf02e.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/eppq2p.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/117v7r8.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2rer7h2.jpg)
Just got to the other side next week!
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Goodness Nick.....that is a very delicate looking reversing shock absorber...... %) .....but the detail is great......Derek
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Thanks Derek
I worked out that I spent over 2 hours just cutting, bending and gluing that single piece on to the model!
Got all that to look forward to next week! {-)
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Hi Colin
Hope you don't mind me sharing both useful/useless ideas, they are far better than some of mine! :D
I've already got my leave planned for this year so fingers crossed we will meet again the open days.
i don't mind at all...... if it helps any of the readers there welcome...
then again, its probably why we are all here...
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Hi everyone
Not much huge differences have appeared in the last two weeks, just more drilling portholes and gluing rubbing strips, ash chutes and toilet chutes!
I thought I had finished making the 12pdr gun ports from litho plate, there are four per side, but looking at my copy of British Battleships 1889-1904 by RA Burt, and some pictures shown to me by Colin, that the aft gunport is open like the bow gunport so I have roughly marked it out in preparation for cutting out next week.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2j62zqo.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/huiypl.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/k9fm06.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/jpu42p.jpg)
However, on a well known auction site I bought these genuine Victorian era prints of late Victorian Royal Navy battleships, for a start I thought that they were post cards but when they arrived I was pleasantly surprised to find A4 sized prints!
(http://i62.tinypic.com/34nr1iq.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/20710m8.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/ka30vq.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/300y8sp.jpg)
Until next time... :-))
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What a bit of luck, they are original Chromolithographic prints from the Charles Rathbone book Her Majesty's Navy its deeds and battles printed by JS Virtue c. 1896. The ship prints are from original works by William Frederick Mitchell. Jeremy
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Hi Jeremy
Thanks for confirming the originality of the prints and where they originally came from. I've had them framed in a simple black frame to show off the pictures. Due to the poor images on the auction site I didn't know which vessels were portrayed- I had hoped one of them would be of a Majestic class battleship but they are just helpful in the history of the Victorian Navy, they are fascinating to look at though!
I've done a bit more work on the hull cutting out port holes and sticking new 4mm brass tube and acrylic rod to create the posh polished brass ring around the porthole. Not really worthy of photos, next pictures will be of the torpedo net shelves being marked out and pre-glued into position. Hopefully :-))
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Wowsers that is coming along great! What glue are you using to stick on the strip detail on the hull? I ask because I am paranoid about glue not doing its duty in all situations and will drill and pin as well unless there is a glue that will take the shock of collision whilst on the lake.
You cannot grumble at other boaters as we all occasionally have a scrape etc but the thought of replacing such detail on a lovely warbeast as yours would exercise me!
My thought was to use carbon fibre rod as it is very resiliant and probably harder than the hull except in extremis.
She looked glorious on the water especially alongside that gorgeous Cruiser! Damned fine work gentlemen.
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Hi everyone
It's been a little too long since my last post on this build, however, I've been busy with porthole mass manufacture, over 100 4mm diameter brass rings with acrylic clear rods cut to length, filed, and test fitted!
The major task is to glue them all in and mask them up in preparation of initial hull painting. The hull will get some fine filler to cover the little gouges seen in the pictures.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/xcnj8l.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/1zvgaau.jpg)
The ladders are almost all complete, only one set to go! Each step is made from two pieces of plastic strip, and are spaced 3mm apart and are only 10mm long!
(http://i59.tinypic.com/10xau5v.jpg)
The correct shaped 12pdr gun doors made from litho plate and glued into place.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/e9wyfn.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/15g5vsj.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/a9mvbr.jpg)
Wowsers that is coming along great! What glue are you using to stick on the strip detail on the hull? I ask because I am paranoid about glue not doing its duty in all situations and will drill and pin as well unless there is a glue that will take the shock of collision whilst on the lake.
You cannot grumble at other boaters as we all occasionally have a scrape etc but the thought of replacing such detail on a lovely warbeast as yours would exercise me!
My thought was to use carbon fibre rod as it is very resiliant and probably harder than the hull except in extremis.
She looked glorious on the water especially alongside that gorgeous Cruiser! Damned fine work gentlemen.
Hi Ian
Thanks for the kind comments, the cruiser is HMS Niobe and belongs to Mayhem member Victorian, a stunning build.
To answer your question about the glue I used, I use a thin cyno cryolite super glue from a kitchen manufacturer called Howdens, its primarily used to glue MDF doors together, we've yet to have any of the fittings fall off due to glue failure- just some of my terrible driving! I use a fine set of steel tweezers to hold the strip and them wipe the strip over the top of the superglue bottle, then hold gently against the hull and within a few seconds its grabbed. You do need to rough the GRP hull up a bit with some fine sandpaper but once its grabbed you need to cut it off with a knife if its wrong! Hope this helps.
Watch this space for the paint job coming soon!
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Hurrah! I do not envy you the myriads of portholes you have had to make! And the identical number of little fill and repair jobs you have as well.
Still, in for a Penny as they say.
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Hi everyone
Well, I eventually got to deck level, I'm marking out the deck edges using the laser printed sycamore planked deck. I'm using the 1mm plastic card sheet supplied in the kit to create the deck edge, and then cleaned up the moulding lines on the white metal bollards and fairleads and superglued them into place.
A bit of filler to blend it in and a nice deck edge ready for paint, only the other sides to go!!!
(http://i61.tinypic.com/33u3b7m.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/sx2hhe.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/6ej4zk.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/24109kk.jpg)
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Stunning ship Nick. Are the anchor platforms part of the GRP hull or do you have to install them?
I cannot wait to see that lovely model complete:O)
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Thanks Ian
The anchor platforms are part of the hull, and are very well moulded- nice and tough. It will certainly be the pride of my 1/96 scale battle fleet. :-))
Trying to get everything ready for paint (well the hull) by May bank holiday. %)
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Looking very good Nick - How is the pre-dreadnought fleet review for Wicksteed progressing?
James
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Coming on nice. I have a question about the stern planking. I realise there were blast plates on the deck forwards but was not aware they were so extensive on the quarterdeck, or is there more planking to go?
What's this about a pre-dreadnought weekend at Wickstead?
Cheers
Geoff
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Looking very good Nick - How is the pre-dreadnought fleet review for Wicksteed progressing?
James
Hi James
It's certainly coming along very well now I've got the repetitive process of port hole mass production out of the way! I've been following your build with interest too. looking good! :-))
Coming on nice. I have a question about the stern planking. I realise there were blast plates on the deck forwards but was not aware they were so extensive on the quarterdeck, or is there more planking to go?
What's this about a pre-dreadnought weekend at Wickstead?
Cheers
Geoff
Hi Geoff
Thanks for the positive comments, the blast plates were bigger than I thought too. I've compared them on the NMM plans and the pictures I've seen in RA Burt's British Battleships 1889-1904 book. There is a little bit of planking by the superstructure corners near the 6inch guns but other than that the rest is blast plate!
To answer both you and James...
At the Mayhem weekend at Wicksteed this year we are trying to gather as many battleships, armoured cruisers, protected cruisers, TBDs, gunboats,etc from the Victorian period to the early 20th Century on one lake. It would be nice to create our version of the Spithead Naval Reviews from the turn of the last century.
So far we have
HMS Prince George (pre dreadnought)
HMS Kent (armoured cruiser)
Askold (Russian protected cruiser)
Descartes ( French protected cruiser)
iJN Kasuga (Japanese armoured cruiser)
SMS Emden (German Protected Cruiser)
IJN Yoshino
IJN Mikasa (Japanese Predreadnought)
X2 Royal Navy TBDs
Possibly...
HMS Mars (pre dreadnought)
HMS Niobe (Armoured cruiser)
HMS Pelorus (protected cruiser)
HMS Hannibal (Predreadnought)
HMS Dreadnought (well we have to don't we!)
Hopefully other Mayhemers might bring their vessels too, I know BobK has a couple of early vessels too.
So bring along as many as possible the more the merrier! :-))
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Sounds good, what is the precise date as it may be an event I can make. I could bring Canopus (1899)and Lord Nelson (1908) both 1/96 scale. Canopus is in Victorian colours and LN is grey!
Cheers
Geoff
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It's May 24 and 25 (Saturday and Sunday) at Wicksteed Park as part of the Mayhem at Wicksteed 2014 show. It would be fantastic if you could bring Canopus and Lord Nelson. The British vessels are getting outnumbered if little Tony brings his Japanese Victorian fleet! :}
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This sounds wonderful! I will tryand make sure to have ready HMS Ready for next year. I think a Victorian-WW1 fleet revue should be an annual event as the real event was a thing of majesty and as the real thing can never again happen a miniature one would be visually astounding.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Glass-Magic-lantern-slide-HMS-MAJESTIC-C1890-BATTLESHIP-ROYAL-NAVY-IRONCLAD-/111321833914?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276#ht_294wt_889 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-Glass-Magic-lantern-slide-HMS-MAJESTIC-C1890-BATTLESHIP-ROYAL-NAVY-IRONCLAD-/111321833914?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276#ht_294wt_889) I've used the micro function on my digital camera to take pics of just sections of slides like these, the resolution can be fantastic.. its like having an original negative..
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Thanks Tghsmith
I'll be looking into bidding on that slide and try what you've suggested, I love trying to see hidden detail in old photos. My parents have some old pictures of the village I grew up in from about 1919. I managed to enlarge the image with my scanner and what an amazing image of life from the turn of the last century came to life. The pictures of the local church were particularly clear.
Hi Ian
It would be fantastic to see you there with or without your destroyer, hopefully we get some brilliant pictures of the event this year and look forward to next year! :-))
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thats a buy it now auction.. no bidding but as they goe, that price is not bad.. I snagged some US ships of this era earlier this year, often times these were done by small companies that went bust and have images seen nowhere else..
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Thanks Tghsmith
Just noticed that too! :embarrassed:
Definitely something I will be attempting to buy tonight, just hope my internet signal is good enough! :-))
It doesn't like ebay sales very much keeps timing out.
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Good Luck! The Mayhem weekend is straight after my week down in Bognor with the rellies so it might work out well to get up there for the Sunday.
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If there is any interest pictures of Canopus and Lord Nelson are on the Model Warships Underway site, gallery 30 I think.
I have put the Wicksteed date in my diary and hope nothing else conflicts. I'll need to get some new batteries for LN as she hasn't sailed in a while.
Cheers
Geoff
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I am planning to go to the Mayhem weekend and could bring HMS Caesar and a scout class Cruiser. Graham
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Hi Geoff, Graham
Looking forward to seeing you both there, can't wait to see the fleet on the model boat lake, I think this might the biggest get together of Victorian models warships to date.
This months Model Boats magazine has part one about late Victorian to 1914 Royal Navy warships in preparation for the centennial of WW1, should be worth a read.
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Regarding your review at the Mayhem show. How do you plan to keep the ships in position, as if there is a medium to strong wind will it not be a challenge to keep station?
I ask out of curiosity, concern and a desire to see or hear about a phenominal event!
I had a look on the MWU site and could not see your babies in the Gallery section.
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Ah that will be the challenge, usually there is smooth patch near the upper part of the lake in the shallower end of the lake or hopefully the weekend will be nice and relatively wind free. If all else fails we could sail around in a parade fashion one after the other possibly in some kind of battle line- battleships in the middle with the cruisers and TBDs guarding the flanks with Mats the bringer of war playing loudly! :}
Geoff, I too had a look on MWU and couldn't find them either, shame really I was looking forward for a sneak preview. %) %)
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If all the models were fitted with small eyelets and tied together with fine cord could they be held in place by a number of tugs fore and aft?
Like daisy chains! I appreciate that individual owners may not ant the loss of full control of their years of hard work so may be a formation cruise would be more practical.
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Hmm, odd. I just Googled "Model Warships Underway" main page and went to the "Gallery" section number 29 - Geoff Dixon, and the pictures came up. You will like the one of Canopus firing her guns and Lord Nelson with my home made smoke generator (Details are on the same site "how to pages")
Hope this helps
Cheers
Geoff
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Surely the vessels have capstans etc and a suitable length of scale rope to a large weight for and aft for representive anchors, with sufficient slack for wash and waves etc, the rescue boat placing the anchors like they would a steering course. {:-{
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Hi Geoff
Just found your pictures, think I was blinded by the words Canopus and Lord Nelson wasn't looking for Victorian vessels by Geoff Dixon :embarrassed: Fantastic work though! A very good photo of Canopus firing her guns, looking into modifying my 'hoods' into working versions.
Hi Warspite
I think I'll give it a go this weekend with one my models just to see what kind of weight is required to keep station. :-))
A bit more work done this week, the port lower battery of 6inch guns has been temporarily fitted so I can make the casemate doors next week. The bollards and fairleads are being fitted permanently and deck edges are being made from 1mm thick 3mm wide plastic card.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2eyw2ro.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/4hcxmt.jpg)
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(http://i58.tinypic.com/r2uoet.jpg)
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She's coming on good.
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I hope to be able to make the Wicksteed show but have a couple of questions:
1) If I can only make the one day which would be better Saturday or Sunday?
2) Are there camping facilities or does anyone know of a resonable hotel nearby?
3) Is there a detailed map which shows where to park and how to get to the boating pool?
Thanks
Geoff
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Hi Geoff
There are camping facilities in Wicksteed Park close to the model boat lake, visit www.wicksteedpark.co.uk to get info on booking a campsite. Failing that, I believe that there is Travel lodge at the next junction up from Wicksteed Park that some Mayhemers have used in the past.
On the Wicksteed Park MBC website www.wicksteedparkmbc.com there is a map showing how to get to the model boat lake, on the weekend there will be mayhem signs up guiding you to the parking area and the campsite.
As to which day is better, judging by the weather the Saturdays have always been proven to be better over the years but last year both days were very much action packed!
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Hi everyone
Final update for this evening for the past weeks work!
Whilst the hull was drying from its mass porthole gluing session last weekend I left the hull behind and built some of the internal superstructure buildings using the kits pre-printed plastic card.
The buildings are as follows: The big box is the funnel casing (minus the funnels!) whilst the T-shaped building is two different items, the smaller box is the generator room and the bigger is the main intake casing which is minus its massive cowl vents at the moment.
I have used the kit's etched brass details for the vent gratings and the resin water-tight doors are also from the kit's fittings.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/10mpvll.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/35l7tc9.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/30axspj.jpg)
I positioned the buildings into the GRP battery superstructure for a sense of scale- plus I wanted to see it place! :}
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2qw3rti.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/16k9gle.jpg)
This afternoon I have filed down the GRP superstructure to its proper height as dictated by the moulded line, it now sits a lot more squat and menacing!
Finally some pictures of the new bilge keel made from wood filed to shape.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/10nvnko.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/29d8zyq.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/33m4bbp.jpg)
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She's a beaut Nick. Seeing the superstructutre parts placed during construction does help explain the layout without the confusion of a plan with it's multiple layers of lines and lack of depth. Taa for that, I hope to refer to your thread one day.
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It looks like domestic issues may cut into my plans for a two day trip to Wicksteed so I will probably do the one day and my preference is for Saturday. I have been refitting Canopus - boiler test being carried out this week, hopefully all will be well, and have completed the gunnery upgrade so hopefully the guns will be able to fire! (Blanks of course). Also With Lord Nelson I have refurbished the smoke generator, purchased new batteries and in common with Canopus have been refurbishing the gunnery system.
I had forgotten how long it takes to refit a battleship even at 1/96 scale!
Hope to see you all there as a pre dreadnought float past would be very good!
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff.......would be very interested in seeing some images of the steam power plant for your HMS Canopus
[I am in the middle of a 10 year steam setup/assembly build]....as below......Derek
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,43627.msg465981.html#msg465981
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Well I hope to see you on the Saturday, should be a good weekend.
I've been spraying the hull to give an impression of a Victorian battleship at a distance at sea with the traditional Victorian paint work. But I run out of red oxide and only bought one back with me to work where I'm spraying-boo!
However the black and white bits look brilliant even though there is still some work to be done!
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I'm not certain if I have any good pictures of the steam plant layout for Canopus but will see if I can find some for viewing.
The layout was not difficult as it was really all contolled as to where the boiler funnel has to be because of the structure of the ship. With Canopus and a version one Puffin boiler the fore funnel was used which meant the bulk of the boiler was aft. This left a small space in front for the burner (poker type) and gas canister. With the gas canister central I put the oil separator next to it and just touching it to keep the gas warm. In practice this works very well and after use the tank was warm but no way hot. This keeps the gas pressure up.
If there was any complexity it was in constructing a gear box to provide contra rotating shafts. This was a 2mm brass plate with 4cm brass tubes acting as the bearings. You will need 4 gears all the same size to get contra rotating props. There is no reduction gearing as this is not needed with steam. Revolutions are quite low so the gears are really silent.
As a sad update to all this the boiler failed the pressure test and there would appear to be a small leak. A friend is looking at it to see if can be repaired so at the moment Canopus has no motive power!
Having said this she was originally electric powered so I am re-installing the electric propulsion so she should be working for Wicksteed later this month.
Anybody know a good replacement source for a boiler?
Cheers
Geoff
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another one good angle..http://www.ebay.com/itm/Glass-Magic-lantern-slide-HMS-MAJESTIC-C1890-ROYAL-NAVY-BATTLESHIP-/360935156616?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276
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Hi Tghsmith
Thanks for the link, looks amazingly clear considering it's age. The last one you recommended was just as good. It's surprising what you can see in the photo!
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I've set some of these on a light box and using the microscope setting on my digital camera taken photos of just sections and details can be incredable,, same seller has a few more you may be interested in..
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I'll have a good look at the others, all I can say is that I wish I had them earlier, stunning detail.
Thanks for putting me on to this wonderful pictures
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Hi RFA, found some pics on the net, thought you might like them if you do not have them already.
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Thank you Dodes for the pictures as they say on a popular supermarket advert
Every little helps! :-))
Might see you at the mayhem weekend this year? I hope so it's nice to have a talk with you and Bob.
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Hi everyone
Managed to find some pictures of the initial paint spray, run out of red and still looking for a stockist of Humbrol 20 Crimson acrylic spray cans. Hannants, my usual supplier can't send aerosol cans through the post anymore!
(http://i61.tinypic.com/30vhshi.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/1oslt4.jpg)
Sailed at the mayhem weekend with Royal Navy sistership Caesar, escorted by HMS Kent and IJN Yoshino, hopefully more tomorrow. :-))
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Hannants, my usual supplier can't send aerosol cans through the post anymore!
Nobody can, new postal regs, but they can use a courier. Slightly more expensive but you do get your paint!
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Thanks Dougal99
Just got some on its way via courier from eBay, ordered more than what's required- just incase!
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Hi everyone
I got my delivery of paint on Wednesday and decided to paint the lower hull with the new Humbrol 20 Crimson acrylic spray can. I got a surprising good coverage and only used one can on top of the one I used before the mayhem weekend.
(http://i62.tinypic.com/2466qde.jpg)
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That looks like a top class finish Nick. :-)) Graham
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Thanks Graham
Hopefully this weekend she'll receive her white waterline, as thin as possible of course, to keep with the Victorian colour scheme
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She's looking great Nick. Sorry I missed Mayhem this year
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Hi Bob
It's good to hear from you, and yes I'm pretty pleased with the paint job so far. You were certainly missed at Mayhem this year hope to see you at Ron's open day in September. How's your Polythemus going at the moment, love to see her operational :-))
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Sad to miss Mayhem, especially with the Victorian fleet. Must admit not much boat building lately, other priorities intervene. Polyphemus will be completed. I am even daft enough to consider building a scale Novgorod to see if I can make a circular battleship steer. (Unlike the original ship!)
In my view the Majestics were a modellers pinnacle of the era. Bristling with armament and tons of detail. Quite unlike the 3 type 45's I saw in Portsmouth over the weekend, which may be technically wonderful warships but so plain and weird looking.
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That'll be interesting to see, I've just been ready about imperial Russian warships, there are some truly amazing but odd designs.
I think I remember seeing a model in the Chatham a Model storage building when I visited there last year, I'll see if I can find the pictures.
The problem with today's ships and aircraft is the need for stealth which leads to plain and sometimes ugly or just plain weird warships and angular bulky flying wings for aircraft, I might be working one day on one of the new stealth aircraft but that depends on a lot of things going my way!
I'll look forward to seeing Polythemus sailing, I suppose the Victorians thought the same of her when she was revealed compared to the type 45s of today.
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Well it's been a little while but I have been busy with the Prince George.
However...
I'm now waiting for a delivery of a new type of 2mm wide masking tape via everyone's favourite auction site...
The reason?
My white line for my plimsole line is not shall we say as regular as I would like! :embarrassed:
So I've sanded down my first attempt and resprayed the white and now waiting for the fore mentioned masking aid. Never mind, in the mean time I've been practicing my plank laying with caulking on a little side line project used specifically to test this before I attempt it on my flag ship model! Hopefully you'll see both soon!
Until next weekend... :-))
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I experienced that problem on Aziz. My solution was before any painting of the hull put a thin white pinstripe from Halfords along the waterline. I then painted top and bottom masking roughly down the center of the pinstripe ( it doesn't matter if paint gets on the stripe). When finished, use 1200 line wet & dry carefully rub the paint off the pinstripe. The paint ends up perfectly level with the surface of the pinstripe with perfect sharp edges. However there is a little dulling of the paint adjacent to the stripe and also on the stripe but this can be cut back with T-Cut. Finally, cover the lot with clear laquer , satin gloss or matt whichever your preference. The only failing is that it doesn't work on large overhangs as the stripe should progressively increase in width in these areas. It should be ok with your particular model.
Jerry.
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Hi Jerry
Many thanks for the advice, sounds like something I'll be using in the future on other models. I got the 2mm wide masking tape on Friday and seems to be sufficiently tacky enough to stay on and sealed but removable with out much residue left on the painted surface. Hopefully next weekend will see the results of my painting and masking skills :}
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Hi everyone
The little break is over, now I'm painting the hull with the traditional black that Victorian era warships were painted in. The white lines are masked off, I've done a little check to see what it'll look like and it's suitably accurate!
I've been researching since July and found these pictures from the late 1890s featured in the Navy Sketch paper, stunning quality pictures and the detail is amazing. The stern walk picture is fantastic but I bought a CD from 'through their eyes' which has photos from a Royal Navy captains scrapbook.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/zlxheh.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/671icj.jpg)
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Don't the guns look stout! Definitly very victorian. Keep up the good work....
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Nick...does the text describe what the largish two wheeled pull along barrows were used for?......
The example to the left of the image appears to have a centre hinged set of doors, whereas the example on the right has a largish round component ....but projectiles for the guns would certainly be too heavy for manual lifting
There are also a group of sailors kneeling down on the left or PORT side of the barrows.....so maybe maintenance barrows?.....
Derek
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It looks like the vehicle on the right is a limber for the one on the left. I cannot confirm just yet, but it may be a limber and caisson for the gun of a landing party such as took part in the Boer war. The ring may surround a pintle that accepts the towing ring on a gun carriage, and while quite large, the box body is definitly large and stout enough to carry shells and charge bags.
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I was just going to answer when my ipad died on me! >>:-( Battery charged now! :}
Yes I think it's probably a limber for the field guns sometimes carried on board by the a Royal Marine detachment. Brian King modelled his HMS Magnificent and Victoria with some field artillery on the quarter deck. Or at least something like that anyway!
Any one got any ideas? Please feel free to post your ideas :-)
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Are you going to fit artillery equipment aboard your ship?
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Hi Chaps,
The smaller wheeled carriage with the ring, was for Nordenfelt or guns. These were detachable and removed from the deck mountings when needed. The large box shaped limber, is for the 1"ammunition cases for the shore party Nordenfelt guns.
This was a common practice throughout the late Victorian era, both as a training and peace keeping exercise, when in colonial or slightly unfriendly ports.
Regards
Ian
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Excellent! I can see this equipment being broken down a'la the gun run (minus the assault course) and stowed away quick smart with Victorian thoroughness! Thanks for your insight Ian:O)
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Sorry, I forgot to add the following.... (was for Nordenfelt or) Maxim pattern (guns.)
Brain fade!.......been at work all weekend.
Ian
Spurious markings dotted throughout the posting. These have been removed this time but, if you notice them again, you have half an hour to go back into your letter and Modify your postings and remove them. ie .... SIZE
I think they are transmission codes sent when using an IPAD !!
Ken
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Hi Ian
I like the idea of having some Nordenfelts on the quarter deck, I've got some brilliant pictures of a Nordenfelt fitted to HMS Gannet. And of course the challenge of making them in 1/96 adds to the fun. :-))
Thanks for confirming what they were.
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Thanks Ken,
They didn't show in my post reply message......don't know where they came from?
Nick, there are plenty of images on the T'internet, of all the various Marine shore limbers and light guns deployed.
http://www.victorianshipmodels.com/antitorpedoboatguns/Nordenfelt/nordenfeltgaller.html (very good info here).
I think the Majestic's used a mixture of Nordenfelt and Maxim types for close in defence weapons, depends on the ship and year you model her/it
Regards
Ian
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Given the number of automatic guns like the Nordenfelt, Gardner guns serving in the Navy, I can see why ships might have any combination of these weapons along with rotary cannon like the Hotchkiss and Gatling. The French used some whoppers right up to a 57mm Rotary cannon!
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Thanks Ian
That's one useful and brilliant link to light weapons in the Victorian era, can't say I can't make one or two now for the Prince George. I'm building her in her early commission from 1896.
I'm currently building the central superstructure/citadel skinning the internal walls with thin plastic card.
Pictures to come soon
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Agreed....brilliant images ...explains a lot...........I had no idea that a battleship would be used for transport of such ordnance........Derek
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It makes ense as the naval contingents bcame straight off warships and so mwould use weapons unshipped to support their shore actions. Captain Percy Scott was a legand when it came to designing carriages to carry 12pounders and 4 inch guns for land service. I think he had some involvement in WW1 but will have to confirm that.
To be honest Nick, unless you plan to display Magnificent at shows, I don' see it necessary to make and fit land carriages; attractive tough they are.
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Well I suppose I'm just a nutter who likes adding things to my model that really aren't necessary! :D
I'll definitely build one and leave it in the spares box for when it's needed!
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Hi everyone
Started work on the superstructure detailing, all the exposed fibreglass was covered with thin plastic card before detailing began. I've made the 6inch gun emplacements from 0.75mm plastic card using a hair dryer to gently curve the subtle corners as per the NMM drawings, not easy when the first one took me all Saturday afternoon!
The doors are the fittings supplied by Deans Marine and look good in position on the emplacements. I filed off the raised detail on the superstructure sides and used the etched brass 4.7inch gun bay doors also supplied in the updated kit by Deans Marine. I've decided to model them closed but I drilled out the hole for the gun barrel and test fitted the 4.7inch guns in place.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2up65vr.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/16a2kcp.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/35aktp2.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/i601g2.jpg)
I found these pictures on the internet of the Mikasa (half sister to the Majestics), these are the 4.7inch QF guns and are very similar to the layout of the Majestic class- I hope!
(http://i59.tinypic.com/11k9iy9.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/95ygly.jpg)
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Those Mikasa pictures are amazing! The ship was heavily stripped before, during and after the war and the story goes that the fittings used in the restoration came from HMS Canada which was being broken up nearby. Whether that includes these guns I don't know, but they certainly look the part.
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I love those pictures of the Mikasa gun deck. Keep up the good work and pictures of progress. :-)) Graham
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I must admit that I had never searched for images of Mikasa before considering that she is a close relative to the Majestics. I think they were on Flickr by a chap who had visited the ship, I'm using them keeping in mind what Victorian has said.
Just filed down the 6inch gun emplacement doors to wafer thickness, they look so much better for the effort.
Just bought two pictures of Prince George just after her being fitted out at Portsmouth, there is a picture in RA Burt's book of the quarter deck of the Magnificent with the Prince George in the background, I think theses pictures are the next in the sequence as they show her bow on and from the starboard beam.
Hopefully she'll look more complete in time for the Warwick show! See you there Graham :-))
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Thankyou for sharing the images of Mikasa Nick. I did not realise that there were any ships of the era left apart from Potemkin so it is good to know that there are a few physical references still available to study.
Keep up the good work, she will be a beaut!!
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Hi Ian
Glad you like them, I've got a few more postcards/photo documents of the Majestic class coming soon, the paint job on hull was restarted because I wasn't happy with it but last weekend it has turned in to a lovely paint job which I am more than happy with- so far!
I've been detailing the inside of the superstructure with plastic card and strip, built a toilet block for the seamen and petty officers, the conning tower, the officer's WC and the 6inch gun emplacements are all fitted but later found out that the toilet blocks are hidden behind screens- only found this out after some studying of the original ship's drawings. Hopefully she'll look the part for warwick in 5 weeks time. Pictures to come this weekend.
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Ooh, yes please:O)
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A bit later than expected!!! But here are some of the pictures of the superstructure build so far...
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2e22ubn.jpg)
(http://i59.tinypic.com/vifkvt.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/ae6xdl.jpg)
Since I am building a 1896 as built vessel I'm having to pre-mod the flying bridge relocating it back from the conning tower roof to the fore mast. Which means a lot of work and drilling extra holes for the mast to pass through. I have replaced the wooden dowel supplied in the kit with a brass tube (7/16" or 11.1mm dia) but used the kit supplied flying bridge plastic card print out detailing the underside with plastic strut as per the NMM drawings. The fighting tops are as per the kit drilled out to fit the mast and the white metal casting you see on top of the fore mast is the kit supplied starfish platform.
And if you look carefully in the last picture you'll be able to see the conning tower base, seaman's toilet blocks on the starboard side, all but very little will be visible- I must be mad!
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Nope, just dedicated! What a fine onlm smeech for the cre manning the Conning tower, having their shipmates lunch parked near by:O/
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Looking good! Don't forget to make the vision slots in the conning towers as sometimes I have seen this missed off.
Cheers
Geoff :-)
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Looking very good Nick, all the attention to detail will pay off in the finished model! The edge detail on the flying bridge looks very sharp.
Good to catch up at Wicksteed on Sunday,
James
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Nick, what is the sleek looking hull behind Prince George? Is it a torpedo boat??
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Nick, what is the sleek looking hull behind Prince George? Is it a torpedo boat??
Ah ha you've spotted a little project I have been doing at work when I'm not building the Prince George.
Its one of Steve Pickering's (Chylds Hall Model Shipyard) Yarrow 125ft First Class Steam Torpedo Boat of 1885 built to 1/48 scale. A lovely model which I saw at Doncaster Model Boat Show this year and had to have! Its also the perfect size to transport in the back of the car for those quick trips to the lake when its finished.
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Hi Geoff
Thanks for the kind comment, I'm pleased with my progress so far and hopefully I won't forget the vision slots in the conning towers before I stick them in to place! :-))
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Hi James
It was good to see you again on Sunday, your Suffolk looks fantastic! :-)) I'm trying my very best so I don't have to rip off anything I've fitted now in the future- I hope!
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You tease you! His range looks attractive especially given his recent entry on to the market. I read the review of his picket boat in Model Boats the other month and was impressed. I am not sure if the Billings one at 1:32 might not be a bit more handleable on the water though, as the reviewer (If I recall correctly) said it would not sail on anything but mill pond.
I have done too much buying of models on the hop before in my military and wargaming hobbies to spot buy model ship kits, but will add the odd one to my wish list when Rupert and Ready are complete.
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Hiya everyone
Been a while since I gave a update of the build so far but for those who didn't see her at Warwick here are some pictures of the completed paint job (well of the hull anyway!), the start of the planks being laid down, and some trial fits of the cowl vents, turrets, hatches, etc...
(http://i58.tinypic.com/a4r0na.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/mlh9vd.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/91lxfm.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/1z52ptx.jpg)
(http://i57.tinypic.com/mi2v0y.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/jpzksi.jpg)
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Mmm, dreamy:O)
She's coming along a treat Nick.
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Glad you like her Ian, it's amazing what you can achieve with a bit of perseverance and a short break.
She looks like a battleship now, going to start the net shelf placement next with all the booms and handling equipment. The admirals walkway roof has been cut to shape and temporarily taped in place before I paint it white. I learnt to plank the deck from several mates who all recommended the same thing- graphite pencil and as many 2mm wide lime planks as you can get! If you check out the Deans Marine website you'll be able to see my current build of the upgrade kit for the gun hoods ( still call them turrets!). They are made from GRP and are direct replacements for the vacform items in the Hannibal kit.
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Yes, I saw that when looking at the video of the new shop. I love the shape of the turrets and was amazed when I found ou that the top had a sun roof! I hope they were plated over before or during WW1.
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From what I've been told and read they didnt expect plunging shells at that time, and when they fired the main guns the gun crews were grateful of the extra ventilation! They were apparantly covered over with wood and canvas when not in use, a photo postcard I have shows the cover held in place with wingnuts. The turret magazine hatch was not inside the rotating mechnism so when they fired and reload the guns they had to return back to the central position and then go back to the firing position. This was only rectified on Caesar and Illustrious (the last two to be built) which had circular shaped turrets.
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It shows how quickly the technology moved forwards, as several classes of ship had the last one or two sporting technology that the following class had as standard.
I always felt the the name 'Illustrious' would have been a good Battlecruiser name, but of course the Majestics were still in service when the Invincibles and Indefatigables were commissioned.
Keep whittling that Majestic Nick:O)
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Hello Nick,
very nice gun turrets. They look very good on your majestic-class. ;)
Michael
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Hello Michael
Good to hear from you, I certainly like the turrets too, the designer/modeller did a good job creating the prototype. :-)) %)
Nick
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I have made a few curved turrets with sloped sides and you do need to keep an eye on both planes as you sand and file. The end result is worth it though. The matilda II turret with its duoble angled sides was a challenge but it is a lovely shaped turret with its cut outs and bulge for the radio.
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Well since my last post in this build thread was erased' by the last outage I thought I would repost...
I had a problem...
During my turret build for a different forum (Deans Marine) I was preparing to mask the turret off for paint when I discovered my problem.
The problem occurs when you look at the difference between Victorian ship identication methods and that of their immediate successors- the Edwardians. For those not in the know the Edwardian Royal Navy painted their warships grey but identical looking ships need to be told apart so they used the funnels to paint identification bands. The Victorians used a slightly different method, their ships were painted black hulled, with white and buff coloured upperworks but once again we have the problem of telling close sisters apart. The Victorians chose to paint colour bands along the upper structure, and you've guessed it, along the turret sides too- all in a perfectly straight line!
Well you ask whats this got to do with me...
Well as I was prepping the turrets I noticed they sat rather low compared to the superstructure so I started to measure everything and it was all ok until I measured the external height of the superstructure- it was 8mm too high in the centre and 4mm at the ends. Thats when I realised my mistake, I'm using a upgraded kit of the Hannibal which has the strenghtened deck which is 4mm thick whilst the original kit has a 1mm thick ply deck. I forgot to take this into account and stuck the GRP superstructure around it which meant that the internal height was correct but the external wasn't. I spent one Saturday using a rotary file to remove 3.5mm of ply around the edges to lower the superstructure which has corrected most of the problems! I'll post some pictures soon.
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Ouch, I feel your pain as you carefully remove material like an archeaologist.
I was wondering if you could tell me what the part numbers are for the kit's 3pounder guns and 6inch guns and shields?
I ask because the 12inch gun monitor I want to build has four of the latter while HMS Achilles (Warrior class cruiser) had 21 or more 3pounders.
I need to know this as Deans Marine need the numbers to know what I am asking for.
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Sorry for the late reply Ian
I've just found the parts list for the Hannibal kit
6 inch gun barrels A12
12 inch gun barrel B70
3pdr gun kits A16
12pdr gun kits A8
Some of the gun shields are part of the gun kit but replacement parts are on the etched brass sheets for the Hannibal kit.
Hope this helps :-))
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Pictures as promised...
(http://i58.tinypic.com/oqc3rt.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/dm47dz.jpg)
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(http://i62.tinypic.com/27xe5nd.jpg)
Sorry about the stretching of the images, my ipad camera seems to be doing that at the moment but you get the idea!
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She is looking really superb Nick. I thought Majestic had gone quiet lately, with your well deserved promotion and move. Glad to see the detailing is back underway. :-))
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Thanks Bob, I've been looking at your least few build updates of your Polyphemus and they look brilliant, we both seem to getting on again! :-))
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Been a bit quiet recently but now have got my finger out and started gluing furiously!
I've been putting off a difficult bit of planking but after some work on another project I have taken the plunge! The planking goes to the superstructure side and is the same 2mm wide strips of lime wood for the main deck, just wish I had done this before I attached the funnel casing and generator room buildings.
(http://i57.tinypic.com/vg3nm0.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/nzep9u.jpg)
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Looking good. A couple of questions if I may:
1) What are you using for the caulking?
2) Where did you source your wood? I'm having trouble sourcing planks for a 1/96 scale model of Iron Duke - all 6ft 6" of her! Particularly when cost comes i nto the equasion. I seem to be getting estimates of between £60 to £250. Ouch!
I have been thinking about cutting my own but I don't have a table saw and I doubt my abilities to find a way to accuratly cut 90 planks width wise.
Thanks and keep up the excellent work
Cheers
Geoff
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Geoff,
May I suggest Mantua Models. eg: https://www.mantuamodel.co.uk/4_Model_Wood/White_Maple_Strip/ (https://www.mantuamodel.co.uk/4_Model_Wood/White_Maple_Strip/)
0.5 mm thick in a variety of woods Widths 2, 3, 4, 5, 6mm etc. In packs of 10 or 50. 2x'50 packs' should do it.
Personally, at this scale I 'caulk' plank edges with black felt tip, then stain planks with tea.
Nick, Oh the 'joys' of planking, can be one of the most awkward and fiddly jobs going. Looking good :-))
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Thank you. This works out at a reasonable cost. What is the quality of the wood - are all planks exactly the same width or is there a noticeable variation?
THnaks
Geoff
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Geoff: It is very good quality, and very consistent - which it important when planks are laid against each other. Only 'caulk' one edge as you move across. 'Nibbing' into the edge planks takes some practice, but with a little practice will come out looking very realistic. I am sure Nick can give you more detailed advice from his excellent build of HMS Price George.
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Glad to see you back on the bridge again Nick. I was wondering how Prince George was going. Planking looks like it is one of those rites of passage on a project where it is onerous, time consuming and can be a pain in the bleep-bleeps, but once finished, it just adds that extra something to a model.
Years ago I used strips of veneer on my Novgorod which looked good. I did not think of caulking then, and the damp got in and lifted it after a few years. A fine grain veneer might be an option?
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Thanks for the support, almost half of the entire models planking is done now as I've pushing my limit this weekend to get it done!
Geoff
I use 2mm wide 0.5mm thick lime wood strips (1000mm long) from Cornwall Models, they cost 34p per strip. They come in a big postal tube , and require a light sand on the edges to finish it off. They vary slightly but the original planks were not all perfect and I've found that some slight variances actually help you in cutting in and fitting where you'd cut them in!
I use a graphite pencil to simulate caulking which are available from places like Colemans Stationary. I rub the pencil on both edges of the planks.
To glue them down I use Deluxe Rocket Card Glue which looks like PVA but sticks a lot better, it works like a cross between slow setting superglue and PVA. Once stuck down lightly sand the surface of the planked area
And you can seal it with your favourite sealing varnish.
Hope this helps.
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😱😳😁Great planking job.So many people have no idea how much effort goes into planking Victorian ships.Your superstructure work looks fabulous.I am doing Polyphemus in Swiss Pear.Have a look at HobbyMill.com
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Hi Kayechuk
Glad you like it, it certainly feels like its worth it now, I wouldn't have said that earlier this year! {-)
I'll check out hobbymill.com for some wood for a couple of my future victorian projects- HMS Pegasus and RN Giovanni Bausan- not so much deck area to sort out!
The superstructure citidel are is now half planked and whilst I was waiting for the glue to completely dry I made two boat handling winches which sit either side of the generator room. I've modified some kit parts to create the winches and used the NMM plans to match them up. Hopefully pictures to come this Friday/Saturday. Starting to create the coaling winches which sit forward next to the funnel casing and forward intakes. These will be mainly the kit parts and these look closer to them than trying to scratch-build them.
I bought some I-section brass beams (2mm high, 0.75mm wide and 0.3mm thick) for the spar/boat deck to suppor the masses of ship's boats fitted to this class. Not cheap for 30cm lengths- £3.20 each and I needed four or five so ordered six!- can you see the RAF engineer in me ordering extra just incase! :o
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Like you more is better than less.There is always,some use in the future, for extra pieces.The admirals walk at the stern drove me crazy.Things are getting very pricey theses days.Most of my friends build plastic kits.They spend 80 dollars on the kit,and 300 on after markets to make them look more realistic😱
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Hi Nick,
I know it's a bit late but you might like to have a look at model railway rails. Not the track, just the rails. I needed a load to support the flying deck on Arquebuse and managed to get a load of discontinued at almost exactly the same section as you mentioned in 1m lengths. Easy to solder and rather cheap.
Tony :-))
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Now that is a good idea! It has a wider fange on the bottom, but this can either be ignored (infact adding surface area for soldering) or filed back. As it is quite soft, it will not be too difficult to process.
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Wow, lots to look at now, especially for future boats. :-))
As promised some photos of the boat handling winches built using a mixture of kit parts and plastic card and beams.
Planking going well both on deck and inside the superstructure.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/6sw7sn.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2vlvarb.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/21nh0gh.jpg)
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Hi Nick,
Making really good progress with the decking - nightmare job! Looking forward to see how things are going at Wicksteed...
James
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Hi James
Sorry for the late reply, been on a long course about being an aircraft supervisor with my recent promotion.
She is looking a lot better with a planked deck and now the details are being added, all the deck winches, ash chutes and skylights are in the process of being built up.
See you at Wicksteed
Nick
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Since all my friends build plane kits,may I ask what kind of work you do on aircraft.My friends dad has a 1949 Navion,converted to twin engine.Lots of fun flying in it. :embarrassed:
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Hi Kayechuk
I'm technically dual trade in the air force but originally way back in 2003 I joined up as an Airframe Fitter (or 'rigger'), since 2007 I have converted to Propulsion or engine fitter (nick-named Sooties or sumpies). Because the air force wanted dual trade we all became 'heavies' whilst the Electricians and Avionic Technicians became the 'lights'.
However with the recent promotion I'm in charge of both types but can only over sign heavies with limited over signing on lights!
I find it amazing how many ex-airforce members build model boats.
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Thanks so much.even though I only build ships,I have seen almost every main air museum in the USA,with my friends on road trips.Was in Oshkosh and flew in a 1929 Travel Air E-4000 open cockpit bi-plane.Incredible experience.May I ask what you what aircraft you work on?Just want to tell the guys.I am going to show them your reply,as they are very interested in the RAF.
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Hi Kayechuk
The only bi-plane I've ever flown in was a 1930's de Havilland Tiger Moth as part of a birthday present experience flight- stunning but always amazed me how they navigated with a magnetic compass which bounced all over the place!
I can't tell you directly what I work on but I can give you clues! I work on the RAF's only swing wing fast jet! :}
The Prince George build is going well, I'm having to make four ash chutes and some engine room skylights, by the time I'm finished you won't be able to see the 12pdr guns in the superstructure citidel!
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It was always thus Nick, but seeing even part of the weapons through orifices, or behind other things can be interesting. Such detail adds depth, and remember, she will look all the batter on a display stand with such detail. I fully respect the 'It looks good from forty feet away' school, but when your model is sat on display, it is good to have a few baubles to catch the eye.
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Thank you very much my friend.I have been working on Polyphemus,with the much appreciated help of Ian Kennedy.Right now doing some restoration work for our local naval museum.Your build is really going great.
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Hi Nick
Your planked decks look great :-) :-))
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Hi Dreadnought
Thanks for your positive comment about the planking. :-))
I've learnt a lot from laying these planks and applied it to my HMS Humber and now my Dreadnought build.
In fact I've gone up a size on Dreadnought to 3mm wide planks, amazing the difference that 1mm has on coverage!
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:-)) Your planking looks amazing.May I make a suggestion.Take a look at the lumber yard for model shipwrights.Really good prices.That where I purchase my wood stock.
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Thanks Kayechuk
I'll keep an eye out for different types of wood in the future. Glad you like the decks, I'll be back on the Prince George after September when I return from Cyprus. Got to get the Dreadnought finished for Mayhem weekend. I've found some new pictures on eBay of her sister ship, Magnificent, from a few different angles that are quite helpful.
In the between time between this post and my previous I have bought some lovely 3D printed capstans from Shapeways to replace the white-metal versions. I bought another 1/96 pre-WW1 vessel off eBay thanks to Klunk who spotted it for me earlier this year, one of the few things missing were the gun barrels so another purchase from Shapeways were the fantastic x4 8inch gun barrels designed for the USS Maine but are the ones for a USS Olympia! Hopefully when I return from Holland I'll upload some pictures for everyone to see.
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I tried a new supplier and purchased Swiss pear for my Polyphemus.Beautiful cut and quality. :-)) Have a look at Crown timber yard.Prices are very good.Keep up the incredible build :-))
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Shocking news everyone!!! :o
I've restarted the Prince George by filling in the gaps I missed on my initial planking of the quarter deck and then completing the planking this time. Amazing how quick you can plank 2mm wide lime strip after all the practice with Humber, Dreadnought, and TF3 in rapid succession. I've learnt a lot from Dreadnought and in some ways perhaps I should have built her first but can't change that now
Now I just need to remember where I put everything- they were put safely away so I wasn't tempted to use any fittings in any other projects I've been building recently.
Pictures will be shortly uploaded... :-))
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Welcome back Prince George. I had wondered what had happened to her as you were getting on so well.
1/96 scale deck planking can be a long and arduous process, the first 25% can be fun as you watch the effect gradually spread across the deck, but never look beyond to how much there is still to do as that route leads to madness.
I really love the Majestic Class. Really imposing ship bristling with gun barrels and tons of fine detail.
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Shocking news everyone!!! :o
That's not shocking Nick, that's excellent news. Looking forward to more of the same...
Regards,
Ray.
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Hi everyone
A picture of my progress so far...
Planking is complete on the quarter deck and detail is being added in the form of cowl vents, riding bitts and various hatches. Getting on nicely now,
(https://postimg.org/image/s2go35rgz/)
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Good show Nick! Excellent planking. I can see what the ring is now on deck, it's a blast proof area under the muzzles to prevent scorching the planks.
Looking forward to more updates eagerly.
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Thanks Ian
I'm quite pleased of the result, I've still got to detail the blast ring with plastic strut strip to represent the individual plates. One thing I can recommend is trawling eBay for newspapers from 110 years ago especially ones from Navy and Army News and The Engineer. I've just found a brilliant stereoview picture of Prince George's quarter deck circa 1903.
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Some close up photos of the quarter deck...
(https://s24.postimg.org/m19bv33xd/IMG_1723.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/m19bv33xd/)
(https://s24.postimg.org/wclonqvmp/IMG_1724.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/wclonqvmp/)
(https://s24.postimg.org/o8dkj097l/IMG_1725.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/o8dkj097l/)
(https://s24.postimg.org/4rsuwhe3l/IMG_1726.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4rsuwhe3l/)
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I will definitly keep that newspaper tip in mind for Achilles Nick.
Are you putting the sun roofs on the turrets?
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Glad to be of service Ian
The sun roofs will be simulated by the laser printed plastic card supplied in the upgrade kit for the turrets from Ron Dean. Hopefully that'll be shown next weekend when I detail the turrets and turret rings.
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Top job Nick. I look forward to seeing that.
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Hi Nick,
she/he is coming along splendid, nice to see you back on this build, and not side tracked on all the others that have pasted through your fingers.. :-))
will you have it finished / Ready for the yearly "come dancing gathering in Farcet"
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Hi Colin
That would be the plan, definitely will be going again this year especially since I won't be deployed at the time- well I better not be!!!
The experience of building Humber and Dreadnought after starting Prince George has given me the knowledge and confidence to complete her/him.
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Hi Nick
after our chat, back in 2014, and looking at Michael's photo's of his model, I would not have thought you needed any more confidence to complete this model.... but if those models helped you in your travels, then its all good practice... ok2 ;)
I might have my new model finished by September, with a lot of wish full thinking..
I have just moved Home, in the last couple of months, and there is still a lot to repair and modify on the house, plus my dockyard needs to be set up..
keep up the good work... and you know were I am if needed.. :-))
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Thanks Colin
I think i needed to confirm for myself as I almost messed up the paint work but managed to save it.
I want this model to be my flagship model and I didn't want to ruin her by rushing in experimenting with new methods. I've learnt a lot recently with brass and nickel silver railings which I passed on my knowledge to my Dad with his train ferry- I must thank you for introducing me to this finesse side of modelling which I didn't have two years ago in 1/96 scale.
I look forward to seeing your beautiful model again, she looked fantastic at Ron's open days. See you soon.
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Hi Nick,
Apart from congrats on the build And Happy New Year, I noticed you mentioned trawling for copies of The Engineer. I presume you have looked into Graces Guide www.gracesguide.co.uk who have copies from as far back as 1856 on pdf?
Cheers
Tony
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Thanks Tony
I didn't know about Gracie's Guide, so many thanks, I'll do some digging :-))
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Wow, just looked into the link and what a gold mine of information, many many thanks Tony :-))
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Hi Nick,
i am not to sure which one of my models is my Flagship, but i guess by rights, that the one i am building at present should be my flagship.. ;)
but i guess my HMS inflexible when it comes to time taken building.. and modelling skills involved..
so i can understand your passion for a flagship..
and your most welcome..
looking forward to the yearly gathering at Ron's :-))
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Hi everyone
As previous mentioned I was going to concentrate this weekend on the gun barbettes/turrets/hood. I have used the fantastic new upgrade kit available from Dean's Marine as added extra for the Magnificent/Hannibal kits. It completely replaces the vac form hood with a corrected shape GRP version with white metal fittings for the sighting/escape hatches, 3pdr gun, and turn-buckles for attaching the hood to the barbette base. A laser printed roof hatch is also included. I replaced the 3pdr with a 3D printed item from Shapeways, the steps were added from the railway modelling fraternity and as seen previously my Grandfather had made some replacement aluminium gun barrels.
Essentially the only few things left are to paint the black strip around the turret roof, add two poles behind the barrel, and attach the turn-buckles to the turret. I painted the turret barbette black as indicated in the many pictures of HMS Prince George from 1896-1903, and medium sea grey for the barbette "floor" and white for the rest of the gun turret/hood.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/29on47b.jpg)
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(http://i64.tinypic.com/25552rd.jpg)
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Hi Nick......have sent a PM about the BL 12" MK VII gun Mounts .......... Derek
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Hi Derek
Reply sent. :-))
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Have to agree Nick....those BL 12" MK VII gun Mounts would look superb with Crested Tampions installed....
May be of interest, these vessels [and to current day] actually had/have two sets of tampoins.........one set for 'at sea'' and a second 'crested set' when in shore, on station at anchor or on parade. The only time they were removed was prior to firing, be it exercise or in a war conflict
The last thing the Commodore or Admiral would want is sea water in the barrel rifling or worse still >>:-( rusting up the breech blocks..............
Derek
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Hi Derek
Thanks for the info, I think I'll try making two sets and see which looks better- essentially depends on how good I can make crested tampions in 1/96 scale! We'll see! :-))
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Sculpt one of each and I will cast some for you Nick.
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Thanks Ian- thats very decent of you.
I'll have a go this week at some crested tampions. ok2
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Nick...just from the outfield :o......what diameter tampions are needed?................e-bay have a huge variety and differing sizes of anchor buttons
Cheap as chips....could be highlighted or dulled down
I have no idea if British Capital ships had actual ships crests tampions .....or just the image of the anchor for the plug.......BB63 certainly had the latter when in Sydney in 1986...............
Derek
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Nick......here a few Crests for HMS George V examples from Google....the latter appears to be King George V himself on board the HMS Queen Elizabeth with a tampion image I believe to be Queen Victoria?.......... or would it be an image of a younger Queen Elizabeth?
Derek
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Thanks Derek
I've just been reading up on the subject and each ship had their crest on their gun barrel tampions but in 1917 it all changed to become one standard type with no crest. Prince George was built/completed in 1895 so would have the crested tampions.
The ship was actually named after King George V when he was just Prince George so without seeing the official ship's crest it would be hard to even make a guess as to its appearance.
I've opened another thread in Warships R&D on the subject.
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Hi everyone
Here are the results of the weekend's modelling on Prince George's quarterdeck. Plastic strut was sprayed first with Humbrol Matt 106 and was glued with clear card glue- this created the blast plates. I've made a couple of companionway hatches and added the most fragile thing I've made for Prince George! The riding bitts were modified as per the steroview card I bought off eBay. The picture is in RA Burt's book British Battleships 1889-1904 but as been mislabelled as a sister ship Victorious. I've repainted the skylights black as it seems that a Prince George's distinguishing feature is black hatches, stripes, and other fittings.
(https://s27.postimg.org/v2vgavkzz/IMG_0338.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/v2vgavkzz/)
(https://s27.postimg.org/xy8jhqozz/IMG_0339.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/xy8jhqozz/)
(https://s24.postimg.org/gli9ygxu9/IMG_0340.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/gli9ygxu9/)
(https://s24.postimg.org/iel6msj0x/IMG_0341.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/iel6msj0x/)
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Oh boy ! that's really nice work there Nick. :-))
The picture is in RA Burt's book British Battleships 1889-1904 but as been mislabelled as a sister ship Victorious.
While trawling around trying to find a ship's crest for you, I'm sure I read that, following a spell in the yards, Prince George was renamed Victorious and then reverted to Prince George again later.
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'll see if I can find the article again.
Regards,
Ray.
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Hi Ray
Glad you like her :-))
That occurred in 1917-18ish according to the same book. The picture is labelled as Victorious but the picture I have states Prince George in 1903 embossed on the card.
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Oh, I see what you mean. :embarrassed:
Thanks for clearing that up Nick - saves me having to search around again.
Still no further forward with the ship's crest though... {:-{
Regards,
Ray.
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I'm afraid not, I've still had no response from the RN Museum Library or The Kew Collection at the moment. The only one that comes close is the rose crest seen in my other thread in Warship R&D about ships crests.
The biggest issue I have at the moment is trying to decipher the strange identification marking on the turrets were a stripe or a roof painted section that extends at the front section of the turret?! The photos are very confusing seeming to show different variations.
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I may be able to help you with the turret markings. With Victorian Battleships it was very common to have a coloured stipe at superstructure deck level. Sometimes this was red or blue or even black. There was a tendency to visually extend this line onto the sides and front of the turrets at the same level so from the side view there was a straight line along both turrets and superstructure.
From certain angles this can look a little odd.
Hope this may assist
Regards
Geoff
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Thanks Geoff
That explains what I'm seeing in some photos of her, by looks of things Prince George had a black stripe. :-))
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Hi everyone
A bit of work over the past week whilst I decipher the plans and pictures. This was the item that stumped me back in 2014 but now after 18 months of research and seeing the HMS Repulse at the Mayhem weekend last year this item is now in progress.
The item was simply described as engine room hatches so I have drawn up a rough drawing (see below), see if you can see my mistake on drawing up to the actual pictures so far!
There are 12 engine room hatches to be made and at the moment you can see the dark recesses where they will sit over and the three support rails made from thin aluminium tube. There are all sorts of extra equipment that sits directly behind the engine room hatch box which include the engine room telegraph cable and fire fighting equipment. Nothing is stuck together yet and a bit of filler and tidying up is required but the mass hatch build (mhb) will start this Saturday. :}
https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2017/01/30/IMG_1746.jpg
https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2017/01/30/IMG_1744.jpg
https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2017/01/30/IMG_1744.jpg
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I cannot see your mistake so far Nick. Keep up the good work :-))
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Thanks Ian :-))
If you look at the drawing in the front view or the one on the right hand side you'll see that I accidentally added the support rail in profile in this view too when it should have appeared as three lines.
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Hello Nick.
I'm mighty impressed with the research you are putting into this! I built 'Mars' according to what was visible in the Burt book and this area remained a mystery. I presume you have Admiralty plans to work to?
So far as I know, there is no surviving builder's model of a Majestic. If anyone knows to the contrary, please say!!!
However, there are models of various 'Duncans', including 'Russel' which was on display at the IWM at the time. Below is a snap looking down into the engine room area. There are hatches there, perhaps not quite the same layout that you are working to. Are those the same ones? Details in the 'Duncans' were generally very similar to the Majestics. I know the builders models don't always tell the truth, but in my experience they are a lot more reliable than re-drawn sketches in Janes or even, Burt.
Here's 'Russel':
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Hello David
Glad you like the progress so far.
I have the Admiralty drawings but they are not so clear in black and white, and pictures of this area seem to be rare as hen's teeth! After seeing Andy's lovely Renown at the Mayhem weekend last year and some 'blown-up' images of Brian King's version I've managed to come up with what looks like the plans with some extras.
Thanks for the picture of Russell, every picture helps with this era of warship, I'm trying to get some finesse in my current projects which weren't so good in my previous 1/96 scale ship's.
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Bit more deciphering of the Admiralty drawings but luckily Brian King's book came to the rescue ok2
I've made four of these little boxes with a 'chimney' and a shute- also known as an ash shute. Vessels of this era had to dispose of their ash from the fires that power the boilers. Not very eco-friendly but an essential task in Victorian times.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/mhafdj.jpg)
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It will be interesting to see where these go on the ship.
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Hi Nick
Any updates on this build its been a while :embarrassed:
Regards
Derek
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Ah well, she’s being started again in the new year after I return from Cyprus for my tri-yearly dose of war ops! I actually found some new pictures of her before I left showing the aft bridge structure so I might be continuing from the aft again!
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That's great news Nick! I look forward to see some piccies of her coming along.
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Hi Nick
That's good news I have been thinking about getting one of these for some time
and have been following your build for some time.
regards
Derek
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Well it’s been a while and I’ve discovered that a majority of the build pictures are gone due to tinypic’s demise so it’s time to upload them to the forum system so they remain available for those wishing to view them:
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Next batch
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Some more
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Next selection
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That’s a pain {:-{
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Another selection
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Some more
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Getting there!
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Some more pictures
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More gun turrets
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Getting there Nick :-))
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Hi Phil
Great to hear from you, hope you and Apprentice are okay.
Unfortunately Prince George/Hannibal stalled about 4/5 years ago whilst I spent that time deployed on and off to Akrotiri but hopefully this year she’s going back on to the work bench. :-))
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Good news Nick! She's a pretty model.