Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: dpbarry on July 23, 2013, 06:21:55 PM

Title: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: dpbarry on July 23, 2013, 06:21:55 PM
Hi folks..


What wire gauge should be used for esc's and motors. At moment, I'm just using 540 motors but not sure which cable to purchase in terms of 10, 12 or 14 gauge.


I'm also looking at colour coding (red/black) esc to battery and (yellow/blue) esc to motor


Any advice greatly appreciated.


Declan
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: kmmbcwebmaster on July 23, 2013, 06:30:43 PM
I use 12 gauge silicon wire for my motors never had any problems yet (touch wood )
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: dpbarry on July 23, 2013, 06:33:32 PM
I use 12 gauge silicon wire for my motors never had any problems yet (touch wood )


Cheers..


Do you use the same gauge for batteries?


Declan
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: kmmbcwebmaster on July 23, 2013, 06:40:33 PM
Yes I use the 12g for all main electrics and I think its the 18g for aux
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: dpbarry on July 23, 2013, 06:46:23 PM
Yes I use the 12g for all main electrics and I think its the 18g for aux


Cheers.  Many thanks


Declan
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: essex2visuvesi on July 23, 2013, 07:12:50 PM
12 gauge is about the best unless you have high amperage draw, like in Fast electrics
Always better to have too thick a wire than too thin
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: inertia on July 23, 2013, 08:39:04 PM
Sorry to introduce a note of disagreement but 12AWG is a pig to solder and bend around inside a hull. 14AWG will handle up to 32A which is more than the stall current for most 540 motors. I use this only when I can't get away with 16AWG!
Suit yourself.
DM
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: destroyer42 on July 24, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Hi DPBarry
This may help I tend to use 14 Guage
20 Gauge 12amp
18 Gauge 20amp
16 Gauge 30amp
14 Gauge 45 amp
12 Gauge 70amp
10 Gauge 120amp
8  Gauge  180amp
Destroyer42
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: essex2visuvesi on July 24, 2013, 03:35:03 PM
Sorry to introduce a note of disagreement but 12AWG is a pig to solder and bend around inside a hull. 14AWG will handle up to 32A which is more than the stall current for most 540 motors. I use this only when I can't get away with 16AWG!
Suit yourself.
DM


Fair point about the soldering.... I have found the mini pencil torches to be a godsend when soldering larger gauge wire.
I guess the main reason I use 12 or 10 gauge is availablity..... theres always huge rolls of it in the workshop :D
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: dpbarry on July 24, 2013, 06:41:50 PM
Cheers Everyone.. :-))


I've ordered up both 12 & 14 awg and will adjust as necessary depending on what I'm doing.

A thought has just occurred to me as an IT Technician. I hope the owner of this site has a good backup.  There is sooooo much knowledge imparted by a lot of people and it would be a shame if it somehow got lost or worse still, trimmed down.


A flying forum site I use did just that and has basically lost a lot of contributors not to mention the knowledge.

Declan




Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on July 25, 2013, 02:59:31 AM
Cheers Everyone.. :-))


I've ordered up both 12 & 14 awg and will adjust as necessary depending on what I'm doing.

A thought has just occurred to me as an IT Technician. I hope the owner of this site has a good backup.  There is sooooo much knowledge imparted by a lot of people and it would be a shame if it somehow got lost or worse still, trimmed down.


A flying forum site I use did just that and has basically lost a lot of contributors not to mention the knowledge.

Declan

You should read the thread forum news etc with a view to imparting suggestions, nice ones that is  ;) ;) ;) to Martin
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40878.new;topicseen#new (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40878.new;topicseen#new)
 
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: dpbarry on July 25, 2013, 02:14:57 PM

You should read the thread forum news etc with a view to imparting suggestions, nice ones that is  ;) ;) ;) to Martin
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40878.new;topicseen#new (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=40878.new;topicseen#new)


Will do  :embarrassed:


Declan
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: More Coffee on July 31, 2013, 12:32:11 AM
You will find that 14-16 gauge wire will handle most of your needs.
Unless your runs are extremely long .12 gauge is not needed. 10 gauge is out of the question
Also the more wire strands in the gauge the less resistance and increased conductivity.
Typical automotive wire is relatively stiff ,and a coarse strand count. you may want to try speaker wire if you can find it in black or red.. low O2 and improved current flow.
Generally I try to find wire with a high strand count, its softer to handle,easier to solder,
 
 
 
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: NFMike on July 31, 2013, 06:15:08 PM
Also the more wire strands in the gauge the less resistance and increased conductivity.
Typical automotive wire is relatively stiff ,and a coarse strand count. you may want to try speaker wire if you can find it in black or red.. low O2 and improved current flow.
Generally I try to find wire with a high strand count, its softer to handle,easier to solder,
More strands does not give less resistance. It's a myth that has probably come across from audio (high frequency ac) (where it actually isn't true either).
Exotic low oxygen copper could possibly give a 1% reduction in resistance. Negligible and probably cheaper to use a heavier gauge standard wire.

High strand count is indeed more flexible, but with semi-fixed wiring having it stay where you bend it can be an advantage.
High strand count has a big negative - the much larger surface area is far more prone to corrosion (blackening). Not a huge issue in most living rooms but in a model boat with damp and possibly salt or battery fumes around ...

Car manufacturers use the wire they do for good reasons borne from decades of experience with operating in less than ideal situations, so I'd say it was probably a good choice for boats.
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: Netleyned on July 31, 2013, 06:36:19 PM
If my boat had a big starter motor, multi motors,
a dirty great alternator and multi engine management
sensors then I would agree.
Running soft multi strand cable round a restricted
area in a model is a lot easier and its not too much trouble
to clip it in place.
I thought that current flow in a conductor was around
the circumference so a multi strand cable would have more surface
area.

Ned
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: malcolmfrary on July 31, 2013, 08:27:56 PM
Quote
I thought that current flow in a conductor was aroundthe circumference so a multi strand cable would have more surfacearea.

Only applies to AC - [size=78%]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect)[/size]  - a quote from the link, "The skin effect is due to opposing
eddy currents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current) induced by the changing magnetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic) field resulting from the alternating current. At 60 Hz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz) in copper, the skin depth is about 8.5 m"  - so it doesn't really figure in most electrical installations since conductors more than 17 metres thick are rare.  At very high frequencies, like in RADAR, skin effect becomes significant, but has mostly been used to con good money out of HiFi nuts.
Having a lot of surface area is good for heat dissipation, but in a cable, most of the heat goes straight into the other conductors.  The important parameter is cross sectional area to keep voltage drop over the length within bounds.  Compared to runs in car electrics, ours are usually very short, so unless it is vital to extract every last fractional percentage of power, ultra heavy cables are not needed.
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: NFMike on July 31, 2013, 11:59:53 PM
in copper, the skin depth is about 8.5 m"  - so it doesn't really figure in most electrical installations since conductors more than 17 metres thick are rare.
That's actually 8.5mm (8470 micro-metres), but yes, unless you are doing heavy power distribution conductors more than 17mm diameter (that's 227mm˛) are still pretty uncommon.
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: More Coffee on August 01, 2013, 03:06:25 AM
I do what I do
I've ripped through more automotive and household wiring than I care to admit.
 Automotive wire is cheap , stubborn , and prone to corrosion, hence the preponderance of weather tight wiring harness in a typical vehicle.
Dual wall heat shrink, rosin core solder,rosin solder, dielectric grease(I pack my servo's with this) , speaker wire , It works. I like it ,it works for me. If I was to  sail around the coast I would still use it.
Copper,oxygen and salt dosent mix on the best day, its a fact of life.. until its cheaper to use gold ..it will have to do.
 
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: derekwarner on August 01, 2013, 03:37:34 AM
As Malcolm says ...."At very high frequencies, like in RADAR, skin effect becomes significant" .......this is very true Malcom  O0
I just happen to have a wiring loom from a HARPOON missile sitting on my keyboard  %%  it has 32 cores of individually colour coded co-axial cable
Each core outer shell of high temperature Teflon, then an individual aluminium wound insulator, then an inner core of all white high temperature Teflon which covers the micro diameter strands of silver plated copper conductor.....the cores are so soft.....I find it difficult to measure the diameter ....however 0.00003" is my best estimate  %)  ...good for the skin effect but not much good for transmission of any real voltage....
 
BTW...of the 32 co-ax cables there is only one which is WHITE & non colour coded........You can guess the function of this individual cable..... :o  Derek
 
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: NFMike on August 01, 2013, 03:37:24 PM
... micro diameter strands of silver plated copper conductor.....the cores are so soft.....I find it difficult to measure the diameter ....however 0.00003" is my best estimate  %)  ...good for the skin effect but not much good for transmission of any real voltage....

Fraid not. A bunch of strands in contact with each other is electrically the same as a solid core of the same cross-section area (of metal), both for straight resistance and skin effect. To avoid the skin effect the strands have to be electrically insulated from each other - eg. litz wire.

The only benefit of multi-strand wire is flexibility, which also covers resistance to vibration (fatigue failure of the metal) which is probably why that missile wiring uses such fine strands. Another example is the leads provided with most decent multimeters - again very flexible and needing to be able to withstand a lot of flexing (though even so they don't last forever).

For 'fixed' wiring in a model boat you really don't need anything exotic except maybe where you have batteries that are frequently moved in and out - higher flex wire would be sensible there (and is often supplied from the pack to the connector with ready made packs).
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: inertia on August 01, 2013, 05:06:42 PM
Plague/More coffee
Do either of you guys know how many angels will fit on the head of a pin?
DM
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: dpbarry on August 02, 2013, 09:47:41 AM
Plague/More coffee
Do either of you guys know how many angels will fit on the head of a pin?
DM

Tis a very interesting metaphor  ;D
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: vnkiwi on August 02, 2013, 10:49:55 AM
After reading thru this thread again, Well said DM.  %%

cheers
vnkiwi  :-))

Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on August 02, 2013, 11:41:05 AM
After reading thru this thread again, Well said DM.  %%

cheers
vnkiwi  :-))

Yep yer right kiwi,
He does have a way with words  O0 O0 O0
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: vnkiwi on August 02, 2013, 12:24:38 PM
Yep, RAAArtyGunner,

the proverbial nail on the head ;)

cheers
vnkiwi :-))
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: irishcarguy on August 03, 2013, 01:31:21 AM
Facts are funny especially when ignored & DM has lots of facts. What was it my Grandmother said again ?, "you can take a horse to water but you cant make him drink". Mick B.
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: More Coffee on August 03, 2013, 05:40:32 PM
What was it my father used to say.
Like minded individuals ..more sheep that individual..
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: Netleyned on August 03, 2013, 05:48:18 PM
People who live in Igloos should not throw snowballs.

Ned
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: inertia on August 03, 2013, 06:54:21 PM
What was it my father used to say.
Like minded individuals ..more sheep that individual..

I'm left wondering how much folk who live in igloos actually know about sheep.
Seriously, if you can't acknowledge a leg-pull and laugh at yourself now and again then you've no place here, sir.
The Clique will see to that  <*<

DM
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: irishcarguy on August 03, 2013, 08:55:09 PM
My suggestion here for what it is worth is that I generally use 16 gauge &  in some cases 14 gauge for motors that will at some point in time be expected to carry a high load. I get all my multi strand wire from The Component Shop & never had any problems. A major suggestion is to wire to this, LESS Coffee & lighten up & see the funny side of life. Mick B.
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on August 03, 2013, 10:11:32 PM
Therefore it follows that all mayhemmers,(includes you an I coffee) O0 O0 , being like minded, model boaters, are sheep.
 
Now the Kiwis will be upset  <*< <*< I didn't do it %) %) %) %)
 
Back on topic, Good commentary/information about wire gauges.
 
I have some rewiring to do, as I need to use bigger wire :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: Snowwolflair on August 03, 2013, 10:21:44 PM
People who live in Igloos should not throw snowballs.

Ned
Is that not how they redecorate!  :D
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: More Coffee on August 04, 2013, 02:41:36 AM
Therefore it follows that all mayhemmers,(includes you an I coffee) O0 O0 , being like minded, model boaters, are sheep.
 
Now the Kiwis will be upset  <*< <*< I didn't do it %) %) %) %)
 
Back on topic, Good commentary/information about wire gauges.
 
I have some rewiring to do, as I need to use bigger wire :-)) :-)) :-))
good call!!!
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: irishcarguy on August 04, 2013, 07:28:38 AM
We should take great care of the DM's among us. Most of what they know is not replaceable. In Japan they classify people like that as National Treasures. Don't worry about cliques Coffee, Martin has an iron fist and applies it almost always equality regardless of creed,color or nationality. Mick B. 
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: vnkiwi on August 04, 2013, 09:54:53 AM
Morecoffee, welcome to Mayhem, and the forum.  O0
You past the initiation with flying colours, well done to you all for keeping things light.  ;)
This forum is simply THE BEST, with the best happy people.  :o
And thank you Martin for keeping things as they are  <*<

cheers
vnkiwi :-))
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: irishcarguy on August 06, 2013, 04:22:15 AM
I hope we meet some day More Coffee then I will drink SOME coffee with you on my nickle, thanks for being a good sport & a big welcome to the nut house, Mick B.
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: Brian60 on August 10, 2013, 02:21:21 PM
Just to throw a spanner in the works of this debate- the current (pun :D ) on some of the hi-fi websites at the moment is over which gauge cable to use for speakers. For years it has been multi strand and very expensive. However there is an underground swell to move away from using multi strand and actually use solid ring main type cable the heavier the better, ie 2.5mm twin and earth for a better signal.

Given this information (and yes we are not talking speakers here) why not use a solid conductor for battery/motor connection? soldering is easier and you can even use crimp terminals should you wish to do so. The solid wire bends and holds shape in tight situations also.
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: More Coffee on August 11, 2013, 04:23:00 AM
Vibration..something to be considered when using solid conductor..,moving wires about ,often it can't be avoided.A guy could build out a terminal station to connect batteries and such.. but then stranded or solid.. it would be more convenient to stick with one type of conductor.
Stranded wire is a proven choice.. If a guy were to use solid conductors it would just as well to make a buss
Title: Re: Which gauge cable for esc, motor & battery
Post by: dpbarry on August 11, 2013, 03:46:17 PM
Hi DPBarry
This may help I tend to use 14 Guage
20 Gauge 12amp
18 Gauge 20amp
16 Gauge 30amp
14 Gauge 45 amp
12 Gauge 70amp
10 Gauge 120amp
8  Gauge  180amp
Destroyer42


Cheers Destroyer42 & all other contributors.


The craic is mighty on this forum.


Declan