Model Boat Mayhem

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: g4yvm on August 03, 2013, 01:42:20 PM

Title: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 03, 2013, 01:42:20 PM
I have a hull made in glass fibre by W P Wood of Aberdeen in 1993.  It has never been built so is probably as it popped out of the mould.  Its a 1m length jobby and I bought plans of another 1m with the idea of finishing it, however, this hull weighs a ton and times have moved on.  Im questioning now whether its worth spending the money on it at all: I'd only end up with a very heavy model by todays standards wouldnt i?  And for the money it'll cost I could buy a very nice modern vessel!


Am I wrong on this?  I mean, the WPW hull looks nice but not great.


David
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: gingyer on August 03, 2013, 02:34:03 PM
The only person who could answer this would be you...
It is you who will spend the money and you who will have to  Carry it about.

I assume it is a yacht hull, this will need a good bit of ballast in
Them anyway so may not require as much as a modern hull

Why not post a picture of it and we can see and perhaps others could advise better
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 03, 2013, 02:51:58 PM
Thanks for the reply.  Yes you are right, it's a yacht hill. 1m long and old style fin keel. I.e. almost long keel but not quite. 

Ill try to post a pic


(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7434/9426856525_fde5db2bc6_o.jpg)



As you can see she has considerable curve to her topsides ( must be a name for that!) so she;'s not got a flat deck.  Whether she was ever meant to be flattened I cant say, I imagine not though.  So she'd make a pretty boat but whether a nice boat to sail... {:-{


As you say, its my choice but I dont want to go off and make a dog!


David
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: hmsantrim on August 03, 2013, 06:46:36 PM
Hi David.
Reading your post and trying to figure out what you are asking here. Have you aquired a 1m yacht hull unseen and found its a design used from 40`s-70`s and does not match  the plans you have bought and your epectations.
To days 1m hull will have a narrow beam and a slot in the keel for a long fin and bulb attachment. The hull you have may be 1m long but its a displacement yacht hull with hollow moulded keel for lead shot ballast to be poured into. Its heavy because its laid up with several layers of gel coat.
As for the curved topsides its got the deck camber moulded into the hull for the water  run off.  I am getting the feeling there are some more modern yachts where you sail and a bit of friendly racing goes on and you don`t want to be last all the time.
Frank.
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: Netleyned on August 03, 2013, 06:59:57 PM
David, is it a metre long or 36inches?
It looks like a 36R type hull.
Long fin keels were in fashion for IOM yachts by
then.
If you want to enjoy sailing as a chill out afternoon
then it could be a lovely yacht.
If you are looking at racing (even friendly) you
might end up being the tail gunner.
Keep looking on line as there will be someone out
there with one.

Ned
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: slug on August 03, 2013, 07:50:43 PM
if it a 36r it should fit in a box 36x11x9"and weigh no more than 12lbs ,I think this is correct....tony
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 03, 2013, 08:09:03 PM
Sorry guys, this is turning a mole hill into K2!


I bought this hull years ago with a view to building it.  No plans or details.  It measures about 37 1/2 inches stem to transom at deck level.


It came with no plans so I went to one of the magazine houses and bought a set of similar plans for a 1m yacht to get a feel for the standing rigging, masts etc.  Then, as you do, put it away and forgot it.


Now I have pulled it out and thought about finishing it but times change so I just thought I'd ask in case someone said "blimey, not one of them ever ended up sailing straight!" or some such.  Its made of thick FG (as Frank says) and is a displacement boat rather than planing.  My real concern was the cost of doing it: as I say, times change and for the cost of fitting this out it might now be possible to buy a full kit or RTS boat!  I have no great attachment to this hull, other than hating to see things go to waste, but if time has left her behind, so be it!


Im absolutely not into racing, just pottering around the lake whilst my kids sail their full size (ha ha) Toppers!  My only other boat is an Odyssey which my son has stolen so Ive lost that now, and I do enjoy pottering with a yacht.  I fancy something a tad more responsive than the Odyssey though thats the trouble!  Actually, thats not the trouble, the trouble is a workshop full of other projects and shallow pockets!


Im sorry for the confusion my seemingly simple question has caused!




Regards


David



Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: slug on August 03, 2013, 08:30:33 PM
sorry about the confusion,build and enjoy nice looking hull, you could surprise yourself .you maybe able to pick up some sails on f/bay,alloy tube b&q   tony
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: Grumpy Dave on August 03, 2013, 10:16:01 PM
Build and enjoy. Possibly with a planked deck, deckhouse and crew.
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: triumphjon on August 04, 2013, 08:08:29 AM
think id tend to agree , if your not into racing , then build it in a scale style and ENJOY IT  , masts can be made as somebody pointed out from tubing from b&q  , graupner market a small kit that will make a very sensible gooseneck ( under a tenner ) they even have a long adjustable kicker made in anodised alloy ( its around twenty of your hard earned though ) , sails can be single flat panel and made from ripstop kite material and still work well , bought sails tend to work out at around 50 - 70 a suit ! lead shot can be bought at a local dive shop in kilo bags .
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 04, 2013, 08:55:31 AM
Go on then, I'm sold! 

I hope it makes faster progress than the type vii I'm building

Ill keep you posted

D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: roycv on August 04, 2013, 09:12:02 AM
Hi G4... Can you weigh the hull and tell us how heavy it is I prefer pounds but can convert!  I agree with Netly it looks like a 36R with that under water shape. 
If the glass fibre is that thick it may not be possible to get much lead shot inside the keel.  So that you would have to estimate the amount of keel to cur away and create a lead keel to bolt on.
A 36R comes out at about 11 pounds (5 kgrms).
But nothing is impossible, if you float a little lower in the water only you will know about it!
I currently have an almost identical shape hull made of wood with the lead already cast and fitted, about 60 years old, it is on my soon to do list!
regards Roy
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 04, 2013, 09:28:29 AM
Roy,
The hull weighs a little over three pounds and the open fin currently measures 8 inches long, 1/2 wide and 3" deep.   How does 3lb sound for a bare hull?  Obviously its about 2 1/2 lb heavier than a modern one, but does it sound okay?


D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: Netleyned on August 04, 2013, 09:45:50 AM
If those measurements are the inside of the fin,you have about 12 cubic inches that can be filled with lead.
Thats about 4pounds 12 ozs of lead or possibly 3 pounds of lead shot.


Ned
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 04, 2013, 09:56:13 AM
I doubt that, the fin moulding narrows towards the base.  I think we might cut your volume calcs in half to be safe.  Will that work I wonder?  I have no real idea about ballasting model yachts (Im much more airy nautical than hairy nautical).


I think the only thing to do is constrain the budget and just do it.   Whats the worst that could happen?  glug glug glug %)


Ive emailed PJ Sails to ask his advice re masts as he sells groovy masts etc and he's not TOO far from me. (Salisbury).  On the other hand straight ally tube is a fraction of the cost!




D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: roycv on August 04, 2013, 11:51:14 AM
Hi it is a bit heavy and has been said about filling the fin with lead it may not be as stable as a 36R.  But if your boat sails 1/4 of an inch lower in the water that is 2 pounds in displacement, which no one will notice.
1 cubic inch of lead weighs 6.56 ounces.  Or a pound of lead occupies 2.44 cubic inches.

Can you slide cut up pieces of lead flashing down the fin?  This would help with the lead density problem re lead shot?
I would try for over 60% of the all up weight of the boat to be in the lead in the keel.

You can hammer lead into shape very easily, just a thought but can you saw the bottom inch off the keel and "screw" in some solid lead.  If you have to drill a hole in lead use parafin as a lubricant.
regards Roy
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 04, 2013, 12:46:51 PM
Thanks Roy.


I wonder what would happen if I poured molten lead into the fin?  Burn right through I should think.  I'll have a ponder on the keel weight thing though. 


D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: Grumpy Dave on August 04, 2013, 02:56:06 PM
If the inside is smooth enough, make a plaster of Paris plug . Then a sand box and cast it in lead. If you do pour molten lead into your model please remember to video it so you get 250 from 'You've been framed'  to buy a new model and we all get to laugh.
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tobyker on August 04, 2013, 11:18:47 PM
I hate to nit pick, but surely the "curve" of the hull sides  referred to is the sheer - fore and aft. The deck camber runs from side to side across the beam. 
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: Netleyned on August 05, 2013, 08:34:20 AM
I hate to nit pick, but surely the "curve" of the hull sides  referred to is the sheer - fore and aft. The deck camber runs from side to side across the beam.


Exactly  :-)) :-)) :-))


Ned
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: roycv on August 05, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
Hi g4.. seeing as you are thinking of masts, I have used both groovey and straight ally.  If you use ally then you have to secure the main sail to the mast at intervals.  You can use wire loops, or a jack line attached to the aft of the mast.
 
A simple way is to use short very small wood counter sunk screws screwed into holes drilled in mast every 6 inches or so.  The head should be about  1/8th. away from the mast and line all the screw driver slots in line with the mast and solder a piano wire into the screw heads all the way up the mast.

I have also done a variation on this where I solder 1mm tubing about 1cm long into the screw head and when these are in place in the mast run a line in (piano wire or fishing line) through the tubing and secure tightly.

You can then use dress fastener hooks sewn into the sail to attach the sail to the jack line.

If you want to know a simple cheap goose neck let me know.
regards Roy
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 05, 2013, 04:58:21 PM
Yes please Roy

D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: roycv on August 05, 2013, 11:45:48 PM
hi g4..  I use aircraft aileron hinges, just one.  The size I use are about 1/8th. inch diameter.  They are a bit like plastic round section wood dowels but there is a hinge joining the two parts together, each part nearly 2 inches long. 

I glue one end into the main boom so that the hinged part hangs down.  I then cut a piece of close fitting tube glued / fitted vertical to the mast for this to drop into.  The main boom can then rise or fall on the hinge and turn right / left pivoting in the tube attached to the mast.
It hardly shows in use and I have this system in 2 boats.
regards Roy
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 06, 2013, 03:47:14 AM
Hi,
It is possible to pour lead into the keel. To do so mark the desired waterline on the bow and stern, Check that there is no pin holes that water can get into the hull, if it does the lead will explode into your face. If there are no leaks then put the hull into a bath/container of water which takes the heat out of the lead before it can burn the F/glass. Then slowly pour the lead into the keel until you reach the water line. If it looks like the hull is sitting up at one end stop the pour and fit an internal dam into the keel to position the yacht hull at the correct waterline and continue the pour. This is a common way to pour lead into an EC12 yacht hull.
Cheers
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 06, 2013, 08:00:29 AM
Thanks both.
I know the hinges well.
Re the lead: thank you for that.


D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 06, 2013, 11:34:50 AM
Hi, If this is your first build it would pay to float the hull to waterline using blocks of lead to ballast. I guess you would be needing around 2 pounds of ballast, up to around 2.5 pounds. This will give you both an idea of the amount required and the position required to attain the waterline correctly. With this detail you can make a dam to control where the lead is poured. As I said previously pour slowly. This will stop the gel coat from cracking through rapid expansion. If you do get cracks then repair them with resin whipped over by hand. Finally once you have the ballast right seal off  with a coat of resin, this give a second barrier for water tightness. A dam could be from MDF as the molten lead will only scorch the MDF initially. I use it to make quick moulds for lead bulbs on dagger board keels. Smells some in the process though.
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 06, 2013, 11:38:07 AM
Thanks for that.

I've already floated the hull in the bath and added blocks of lead just to see.

Waterline checked etcetera etc.

D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 06, 2013, 05:40:34 PM
Right, Ive added lead.




I did the "pour molten lead into the hull" trick and it worked fine.  A bit of a pong of glass fibre but no scorching etc.


The total weight now is 9.5lb, the bear hull was 3lb, thats 6.5 in the fin.  Actually, IN the fin.  If the all up weight is 12.5 - 13 I think thats about right, based on the 60% AUW in the fin idea, perhaps a tad heavy.  Anyway, she floats just about on the waterline.   Actually, Ive just thought about that...the topsides weight will drop her a bit.  Oh well, its done.


I have imagined that the topside will not weigh m ore than 3lb, but I have no real idea.




David
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: Netleyned on August 06, 2013, 05:49:48 PM
Well done ! :-))
Top weight can be kept down with carbon fibre mast
and spars.

Ned
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 06, 2013, 05:58:10 PM
Thanks Ned.


Is there much to be gained from going shroudless with a carbon mast?  Obviously there's ease of rigging I guess.


D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: Netleyned on August 06, 2013, 06:08:31 PM
Not gone shroud less.
My Victoria has two shrouds each side
On a carbon fibre mast.

Ned
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 06, 2013, 06:19:17 PM
Ah right.  I was thinking of bonding chain plates to the inside of the hull prior to gluing the deck down anyway, so that would work.


D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 06, 2013, 07:09:38 PM
Am I right in thinking about 1.3m mast height for this boat?  My plans are for a iom and they show anything between 1.2 and 1.8m.


D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 06, 2013, 08:52:48 PM
Hi, Wow that's a lot of lead for that length hull. The closest yacht I have to that is a J class which manages to comfortable handle a 1.6m high mainsail with a 3/4 height jib. I use a 12mm diameter alloy tube mast and two shrouds, one from the crosstree and the other from the masthead through the crosstree.
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 06, 2013, 08:56:10 PM
Sorry shroud is not from the masthead it is from the jib fixing point.
Cheers
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 06, 2013, 11:09:29 PM
Thanks

How much lead is your j class carrying?
D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 06, 2013, 11:41:38 PM
Hi, Around 8.6 pounds. The draft is 8.3 inches and waterline length is 31 inches, beam 8.86 inches. We sail in stronger winds than most and she handles well. I went for a high aspect ratio sail as the longer sail foot of a low aspect sail allows the wind to drop off giving poor performance. This picture is how they are originally set-up. They don't handle very well, I prefer a sweet handling yacht hence some major changes.
Cheers
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: mrpenguin on August 06, 2013, 11:54:58 PM
Hi,
It is possible to pour lead into the keel. To do so mark the desired waterline on the bow and stern, Check that there is no pin holes that water can get into the hull, if it does the lead will explode into your face. If there are no leaks then put the hull into a bath/container of water which takes the heat out of the lead before it can burn the F/glass. Then slowly pour the lead into the keel until you reach the water line. If it looks like the hull is sitting up at one end stop the pour and fit an internal dam into the keel to position the yacht hull at the correct waterline and continue the pour. This is a common way to pour lead into an EC12 yacht hull.
Cheers

This sounds REALLY dangerous to me, sorry. One accidental drip of molten lead into the water the hull is sitting in would create quite a disturbance; you need nerves of steel (or lead..)
 
I am not saying don't do it, just saying that if it were me, I would find a different way....
 
[EDIT] Just read more of the thread and I see you have done it successfully, congratulations!
My comment still stands however...
 
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 07, 2013, 12:04:01 AM
Your concerns are valid, but I've poured a lot of lead over the years. I've tought my boys to do it too. Done in the right manner and with care it's not so hard.

David
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 07, 2013, 12:07:32 AM
So I'm thinking 11.1mm mast dia and 1.3m tall, keel stepped (slid into a tube I guess).

1/4 scale servo swinging a main sheet arm, rudder from an IOM type boat

Plywood deck.

Simple Bermuda type rig

D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 07, 2013, 12:57:57 AM
Hi, I prefer a sailwinch as it is a more gentle sheeting in and out and a lot more grunt for around the same cost. In fact the Hitech sailwinch is cheaper here in NZ than the sailarm, 16 sailwinches and only 1 sailarm that is not being used. Add a little deck camber for a good look.
Cheers
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 07, 2013, 08:10:25 AM
Thanks for the comment. I has heard that sail winches are a pain because of "birds nesting" the sheets!   I have no experience though.

I also already have a 1/4 scale servo.

D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 07, 2013, 03:13:41 PM
Ok I actually have a hitec HS700 bb 1/4 scale servo AND a hitec HS785 HB sail winch servo

Which should I use for my yacht?

D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 07, 2013, 09:26:09 PM
Hi, For me it's a no brainer, the sail winch every time. I will post a picture of my set up for you which is pretty much bullet proof, bar breakages. I have to catch the America's cup first! If you are worried about the sheeting dropping off the winch it can be mounted on it's side so the sheeting cannot drop off the drum.
Later
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 07, 2013, 10:32:25 PM
Ok, this is a 36inch hull. The black device attached to the rudder brace is a security pass recoil holder (plastic non rust) this holds tension on the sheeting to the winch which prevents the sheeting dropping off the drum or getting knotted up. I usually fit a close fitting pulley in the bow but on this occasion I couldn't be bothered making one and have used a piece of copper tube to guide the sheeting around. You will see that there are two sheets coming off and through the deck. I use two so I can get the travel I want without cluttering the deck side. The "chain plates" are just loops of stainless wire epoxied into the deck and the sheeting exit is PTFE which is offset as it makes it easier to deal with and away from any potential snags. I have mounted the winch upright so the drum can be accessed when required. All but one of my yachts are setup this way and the one that is not is an early variation on this theme. This system can handle any sail size, my biggest being 2000 square inches.
Cheers
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: g4yvm on August 07, 2013, 10:56:09 PM
Thanks.  Thats clever, using the recoil holder. 


I appreciate the photograph.  Presumable the deck has yet to be glued down? Its not a removable deck??




D
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 07, 2013, 11:17:50 PM
Hi, Yes the deck is to be epoxied down as my yacht hulls are concidered boyancy aids, monocoque construction. The only parts given great attention are the jib fixing point, the mast mount tube and keel where the stresses are dissapated through these mounts into the hull. The deck is 1.5mm marine ply which is an important part of the monocoque. When I use cedar planked decks I fiberglass the undersides to build up the strength to that of the ply, typically my cedar is 1mm thick plus the glass. I'm working on 5 yachts at present and have had to delay the builds until the spring with warmer temperatures to cure the fiberglass.
Cheers
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: mrpenguin on August 08, 2013, 03:02:30 AM
Ok I actually have a hitec HS700 bb 1/4 scale servo AND a hitec HS785 HB sail winch servo

Which should I use for my yacht?

D
I would think the HS78HB would be the go for a boat this size. From memory, I think it is about 4 turns from one end of travel to the other and is STRONG. There are some other alternatives that are similar specs but not nearly as expensive if you are planning to buy a sailwinch (eg the Vigor ones on HobbyKing).
 
Drum winches are slower than arm winches, but great once you get used to them. Tangles are not an issue if you set up a continuous winch loop and attach your sheeting to the loop. Have a look at this Youtube video of a modified setup on my Surmount, it is a variation on what Tiaki posted. This setup is much modified from the original Surmount arrangement. It works great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JWhI3F_MY74 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JWhI3F_MY74)
Title: Re: W P Wood hull
Post by: tiaki on August 08, 2013, 12:50:02 PM
Be advised, Hobby King sail winches are junk, They are a glorified 1/4 servo that only creep to the correct end position. Read the feed back on the HK site for the winches. It is a symptom of changing the pot in a standard servo to a multi turn pot. A conversion I used to do before proper winches became more obtainable and cheaper. Unless there is a specific need for a winch that slows down as it gets to the end of desired position, move on. I think the number of turns is depend on the brand of radio being used and will vary, I get 3.6 turns running Futaba radios and 4 with Hitech radios. I have discovered a use for the HK winches but am not sure which end of the anchor chain I should put them!
Cheers