Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => DC Motors (Brushed) and Speed Controllers => Topic started by: old shrimper on September 27, 2013, 05:19:29 am
-
AS said between the two of us B.B and Myself we have blown 8 Mtronic esc ranging from marine 20 to marine 25 setup type and plug and play
they will just blow up in smoke or explode as soon as the batt is connected to esc
all do the SAME THING first they blow the in line 15 amp fuse (BLUE ) then when another fuse is inserted they go up in smoke ,WITH OUT even having the motor or the servo connected
now this is in 3 different models with 3 different wiring harness with different batteries at 2 different locations
FROM all the experiments we have tried it appears to US that they won't take over 11.1 v as we are both using NEW 12v 7ah SLA batteries
i have but some pic of one of them blowing on the bench you can see the burn marks on the laminex bench top
i have contacted Paul at Mtronic and replied to send pic of the wiring so i have done that a couple weeks ago ( nothing since )
any one else had trouble with this units using over 11.1 3s lipo batt ??
-
Looking at photo #2 and looking at a 12v SLA of mine, granted a different make, the + and - terminals are reversed.
There was a case on here a few years ago where a problem was traced to the battery connections being incorrectly labelled. This was sorted using a voltmeter and some red and black paint to avoid reverse connections. The moral was to trust the meter rather than the painter in the factory.
-
well we had 3 different batt pos is red neg is black all check out on the voltmeter
-
Malcolm,
I also have a couple of "DiaMec" 12V SLA's, marked DM12-7.2(12V 7.2AH/20HR)
The terminals are identical as shown in Shrimpers photo.
However, good comment re terminal markings, and something I will keep in mind with batteries :-)) :-))
-
Which battery were you using, you mention both an SLA and Lipo's?
Brian
-
Is that a red light on the fuse holder? How does that work if it is?
Have you measured voltage on the battery, Although lead acid batteries are 12v marked they normally sit over that, 12.5v perhaps.
Craig.
-
If you are taking a 12v SLA straight off a charger it could
be as high as 14v before settling down.
A fully charged one will Defo be over 12 v
Ned
-
The info blurb from MTRONIKS says the RECEIVER should be connected to the E S C , that 'servo' wire your refering to IS the RX connector , couple as is for B E C 's to the RX otherwise disconnect the red wire if your using independent power supply to the RX . . .
What's to be gained by applying power to the E S C without RX control? all that powers got to go somewhere . . .
set up sheet is on here . . . .
http://www.mtroniks.net/details1.asp/ProductID/182/Viper-marine20.htm (http://www.mtroniks.net/details1.asp/ProductID/182/Viper-marine20.htm)
Bill
-
we are using 12v SLA i was only referring to lopo as the 11.1 voltage max
we have blown up many with them fully connected as per there install sheet
the pic i posted was more or less to show they will blow with out anything connected to them
sla usely sits round for a few weeks uses still holds the 12.8v
-
s that a red light on the fuse holder? How does that work if it is?
no idea it comes on when yis that a red light on the fuse holder? How does that work if it is?
[/size]NO IDEA IT COMES ON WHEN YOU BLOW A FUSE
-
old shrimper...are you suggesting we all need to buy shares in Specsavers? {-) .....Derek
"that a red light on the fuse holder? How does that work if it is? ..... no idea it comes on when yis that a red light on the fuse holder? How does that work if it is?"
-
:-) 'blinking!' sizing as soon as i highlight or copy and past it goes small
or a smiley face
not quite wright but close
no ideea it comes on when the fuse blows
-
hi ya all
with regard the speed controllers that have all gone 'pop' did they all come from the same source i.e. shop/internet.... cos was it about a year ago that the market was flooded with what shall we call it 'Far Eastern promise of copies from we know where' I do know that MTroniks fell foul to the copies along with other Companies especially the Company who produce IMAX B6 super duper battery chargers and I know this cos I bought a copy myself from the web and I didnt know it was a copy until I was doing some research on YouTube where they opened up a copy and compared it with the original as everything else was a perfect copy of the original, apart from the componenets inside the charger. The colouring on the exterior, literature, even to the box was so difficult to distinguish from the original and I only found mine was a copy after I had opened it up cos curiosity go the better of me. Now obviously you wont be able to open up to inspect the speed controllers because of the way they are constructed and if you try to open it up you would bust it or void your warranty. Just food for thought.
aye
John
-
hi mate
yes they all came from a well known UK supplier
im think a bad batch as i still have one that works fine in all 3 models we have between us ??
cant kill it
-
hi ya all
with regard the speed controllers that have all gone 'pop' did they all come from the same source i.e. shop/internet.... cos was it about a year ago that the market was flooded with what shall we call it 'Far Eastern promise of copies from we know where' I do know that MTroniks fell foul to the copies along with other Companies especially the Company who produce IMAX B6 super duper battery chargers and I know this cos I bought a copy myself from the web and I didnt know it was a copy until I was doing some research on YouTube where they opened up a copy and compared it with the original as everything else was a perfect copy of the original, apart from the componenets inside the charger. The colouring on the exterior, literature, even to the box was so difficult to distinguish from the original and I only found mine was a copy after I had opened it up cos curiosity go the better of me. Now obviously you wont be able to open up to inspect the speed controllers because of the way they are constructed and if you try to open it up you would bust it or void your warranty. Just food for thought.
aye
John
Interestingly, Hobbyking list the Imax 6 in two forms, genuine and copy ( with product code SKU: IMAXB6-FAKE). The copy is about half the price of the "real" one. Strikes me that selling them like this only encourages cheap pirating of a good product. At least they are upfront about what you are buying. I have a genuine one which is a nice bit of kit but I wouldn't fancy putting any reliance on a copy, LIPO charging is iffy enough without chancing your arm on inferior kit.
-
Interestingly, Hobbyking list the Imax 6 in two forms, genuine and copy ( with product code SKU: IMAXB6-FAKE). The copy is about half the price of the "real" one. Strikes me that selling them like this only encourages cheap pirating of a good product. At least they are upfront about what you are buying. I have a genuine one which is a nice bit of kit but I wouldn't fancy putting any reliance on a copy, LIPO charging is iffy enough without chancing your arm on inferior kit.
I have both. A copy, which at the time I did not know it was a copy >>:-( >>:-( and also a genuine one, bought from Hobbyking. O0 O0
Both work the same and are both going strong.
The genuine one has a hologram type sticker on it similar to Microsoft's genuine software stickers, and is the only way I can tell them apart.
-
hi ya
I know this is going off topic a bit, but I fell into the same trap as a lot who purchase through the net, with regards to buying a battery charger - look for the cheapest with the best name. At the time I was entering into the field of lipo batteries and brushless motors; so needed a battery charger that would charge up lipos and at the present time it charges the lipos okay, as I have checked the lipos with a little plug in meter which plugs into the end of the lipo batteries and checks the cells and the balance and they have charged okay. Also, it charges the standard Ni-MH batteries no problem, so - so far - so good.
Still doesnt answer the problem with these speed controllers though - but definitely sound suspect to me. i.e. copies. Maybe someone should send one to MTroniks cos no doubt they could open one up and know what to look for inside and possibly give a good answer.
aye
john
-
some of them have been sent back to M tronic via the supplier no word yet ?
-
TRUE or FALSE
Mtronic marine 20A ESC won't run on LIPO batteries ??
just somthing i was told , as im wanting to run one on a lipo 2s 5000mAh when i get the replacements IF IT HAPPENS
talking about batt chargers i just got a Turnigy 4 button one from HK (accucel -6 ) any one used that one ??
-
I would not have thought the chemical make up of
the cells would make any difference to the power
supplied by the battery.
The voltage and the load being the deciding factors.
The only thing is not allowing the cells to discharge
below their limit and I don't think the ESC mentioned has a
low voltage cutout.
Ned
-
Hi
I would have to agree with ned. 10V to 13V dc is just that. ESC dont care how the voltage/amaparage is strored.
were the story may have come from is. A LIPO given the chance can dump all of it power AH very quickley. with this much current it could destroy an ESC, but rember. 1 if you have correct fues and 2 the current may be avaible but the amount used is govened by the pull ie motor. yes if the motor had a short then there would be massive current pull but thats were the fues does his job.
I have the Mtronics esc micro in some of my boats and they run on 7.4V 800mah bat never had any problems.
Sorry to hear about your bad luck on the ESC. If you can get the serial numbers email the to Mtronics and see if they are real or fake items. My self i rate mtronics very highly better than most other makes taking cost,reailiblty, range, in to account.
John
-
hi John
thank you for that info
yes the reputation this forum gives Mtronic is way i bought them to start with
either of us now , are not game to connect one up on 12v
the serial # idea is great one
cheers
-
A LIPO given the chance can dump all of it power AH very quickley. with this much current it could destroy an ESC, but rember. 1 if you have correct fues and 2 the current may be avaible but the amount used is govened by the pull ie motor. yes if the motor had a short then there would be massive current pull but thats were the fues does his job.
1 The fuse does not, and can never, protect the ESC. It is there to protect the boat from the ESC should the ESC develop a fatal flaw, like an internal short. This can result in a burning ESC and/or melted an/or burning wiring.
2 Mtronics are advertised as having built in current limiting, so a motor wanting more current than the ESC can deliver should just be choked off.
The only way a fuse can protect an ESC from what the motor wants to do at it is by having a fuse between ESC and motor. With a current limiting ESC, there is little point in doing this unless there is more than one motor on that ESC, when one fuse per motor becomes sensible.
-
Where do find the serial No.?
Just looked at a couple and there
aren't any serial nos to be seen.
I know mine are genuine as I bought them
direct from Otley.
Mine are all ex test models that Mtroniks
sell at discounted prices.
Ned
-
Hi
you can say what you want but a fues can protect an esc . I have blown fues and not esc.
All mine are in my boats so If there is a serial numberIi would not be able to see were it is. Could it be on the pakage that the ESC came in. You never know it might not have a seril number. There may be some thing inside that Mtroniks can see that tells them when it was built. Email them see what the surgest. They must have some way of knowing when stuff was made.
As for the the 12V . Most boaters run on 6V or 12V sla or now LIPO or NIcad. Mtroniks know this and would not make an esc that could only work on 12v and the 13.8v you get from a fully charged battery. IF +12V would kill there ESC , There wantery clames would be through the roof. All mine run on 12V sla fine for years so no problems there. I only know of one manufactor that made an ESC 6V that could not run on a 5 cell 6V pack. No names but I would not use there stuff again.
John
-
Dear Shrimper,
I have just had a look at this thread and the photos - nothing wrong that I can see apart from the motor suppression capacitors. I can't quite see the lower cap from the photo where it goes from to where it goes to.
The suppression kit should be one across the two motor terminals and the other two should go from each of the motor terminals to the motor can. The legs of each cap must not touch each other as otherwise a dead short occurs. The legs therefore should be insulated. Can you take an end-on photo so that I can see it please.
Regards
Graham
-
hi mate yes i will get one for you
the thing is that you can run any of the 3 the motor direct from a battery and there fine one of my motors does not have the little caps
are they really necessary with 2.4htz ? as theres no one else in our area with a model boat
-
Hi there this is how the end of my motor looks (thats how it arrived with suppresser on) not game to hook up any more ESC's as they all seam to end up in ESC Heaven mmmm mabe HELL as they left in a trail of smoke.......
-
THE motor that does not seam to blow up so many esc does not have any biscuits on it ??
-
Oh well see what the guy's come up with as its out of my league talk about biscuits I'm going to go and have one with a coffee :-) ...
-
Guys,
Just to be different, I have one of those MFA motors but it has three "biscuits", just as in the first photo of this post.
Motor is Torpedo 500, 4.5V to 15V DC with 6 to 1 Gearbox, and by what I can make out so is the one in the one shown in the first photo.
Just in passing the biscuits are not edible, :o :o {-) {-)
-
yes both motors are the same except for the amount of biscuits
the other motor with no biscuits is an SKU 700 high torque on direct drive way to much power on 12v it gets my tug up on the plane all most
-
hi mate yes i will get one for you
the thing is that you can run any of the 3 the motor direct from a battery and there fine one of my motors does not have the little caps
are they really necessary with 2.4htz ? as theres no one else in our area with a model boat
Although 2.4GHz is pretty much immune to radio interference, the back emf's generated by any motor can still cause trouble if they get into the electronics, and if there is nothing to stop them, they can and do get up the motor leads and provide false signal to the electronics. The biscuits stop them at source, and can be considered a good thing.
Some manufacturers fit them internally - if you look closely at the tags, you might see a very fine wire disappearing into the casing.
-
ok we are conducting an experiment tomorrow
have installed 2x HK Xcar 45A brushed ESC $10 each running on 2s 7.4v 5000 mAh lipo BATTs
in each of our models they work fine in test tank so going to the BIG Pond tomorrow to see how LONG they last
PLACE YOUR BETS NOW :}
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__46161__HobbyKing_X_Car_45A_Brushed_Car_ESC_AUS_Warehouse_.html?strSearch=x%20car%20esc (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__46161__HobbyKing_X_Car_45A_Brushed_Car_ESC_AUS_Warehouse_.html?strSearch=x%20car%20esc)
-
oldshrimper.....not being a gambler :o ......& thinking of the criteria <*< and knowing you will have some very distracting biki clad adjudicator's to witness proceeding's ........
My guess is that the each ESC will outlast the battery capacity :embarrassed: or about 48 minutes each.....Derek
-
48 min is that all those lipo batt will run for ?? :(( i will take my little charger but its pretty slow
-
well no magic smoke yet
-
Well.....based upon the delay in timing {-) it would appear that both ESC's have exceeded a running time in excess of the battery capacity...
Would be very interested to hear the final run flat timing............ :-)) Derek
-
well as it was hot day and and a few people were swimming with kids and dogs
we opted to leave after about 2 hrs of playing round
all so not being sure of the run time and reliability of the esc and only having ONE 2s 5000mAh lipo between us , and not knowing the distance range of the TX/RX units
as the wind was offshore if anything failed we stood the chance of loosing a boat
you could hold the tip of your finger on the fins on the esc after about 20mins running time (they were hot but not burn yourself hot )
at the end of the session i put the multimeter on the batt and it read just under 8 v ( i was surprised )
the esc is supposed to cut off if the battery gets to low or the esc gets to hot ? if you program it correctly , we weren't sure about that bit
it has practice mode and professional mode, also not sure what that was about
any ideas ?
with 540/1 motor on 6.1 red turning a 55 mm 4B brass prop it needed 100% throttle setting on the TX to get a good realistic bow and stern wave on B.Bs trawler
but the SkU 700 high torque motor in the Tug on direct drive turning a 60mm prop shop 4B prope in a steering nozzle only need 40% throttle to get a nice bow wave and a deep trough in the center of the hull and a good stern wave ( at a 100% throttle setting it was joke as the hull was just climbing out of the water and burying the back deck under water
i was impressed with how much power it has in reserve even on 7.4 v HANDLES WELL TO FOR An AMSTERDAM
im going to give it run in the test tank tied down to check the heat and batt life later on
i reckon the tug would tow a house brick of the beach on 100% throttle ON 12v the thrust it has is amazing
also going to put a small fan on the top of the esc and a heat sink with a fan on the motor in a few weeks when they get here
i think BB has some good shots of both boats motoring along he will put up
cheers Bob
-
this is a short vid of the run yesterday
link on photo bucket
http://s1266.photobucket.com/user/atomicmaloo/media/MODEL%20BOAT%20PIC/BobsTugVideo.mp4.html
-
ok here is an up date i ran the tug in the tank for 1;1/2 hours was at 50% throttle with a rubber band round the trigger on the TX and the tug was tied up to a statue with a bridal ,so it was on dead pull the whole time till the low battery setting on the esc cut in
battery ended up at 6.6v
the esc never got over 70c ( it has 90c cut off ) and the motor was at 55c it was a 32c day in the sun
im going to but some cooling fans in . one on the motor and one on the esc and probably a big extractor fan in the stacks
-
OK OK...... {-) 1 & 1/2 hours was at 50% throttle = ~~~~~ 45 minutes at 100% throttle ....in roundish calculation revision %%
My bet was 48 minutes should you care to remember {:-{ & that was based on an ambient 30 degree C which was your area local temperature on 1st October
So to recalculate due to the temperature gradient [48 minutes divided by (32 * 30) = 45 minutes] which proves our OZ calculations to be 100% correct.......... %% {-) O0 ....Derek
-
i thought YOU was betting on how long the ESC would last that was the bets i was asking for ??
yer lipo battery is a bit slack at 45min at WOT :(( bit of a bummer if you had to change the batt mid pull in a tug towing comp
-
sorry oldsmrimper ....please just read the words back......... "my guess is that the each ESC will outlast the battery capacity (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/Smileys/Tug/embarrassed.gif) or about 48 minutes each".....
In OZ, only Queenslanders change the rules 1/2 way thru a game.... >>:-( <*< >>:-( <*<
BTW....what is my prize? %% O0 {-) ..............Derek
-
{-) {-) {-) {-) {-) OK you win i was to concerned about the esc blowing up to read it properly ( i guess its called OLD AGE )
so how do i put 2x mAh 5000 2s Lipo in series ? do they work like OLD school batt the more cels you have the longer they last ?
-
Cells (and batteries) in series, the same AH but more volts therefore more current taken, therefore a shorter run time.
Batteries in parallel, same voltage, more AH stored, longer run time.
Exactly like old school worked.
Series is original -ve line, +ve of that battery to -ve of the new, +ve of the new is your 14.8 volt supply for what is now a 4S 5000mAH battery.
Parallel is both -ve terminals connected together and both +ve terminals connected together to give a 2S 10000mAH battery.
-
thanks mate
so i need to make a harness up to conect them in parallel
the pos red to red on the second batt and the neg black to black on second batt both mAh 5000 2s lipo
, then from the + to ESC + first batt
and NEG on the first batt to NEG on the esc will give a 1,000mAh
WRIGHT ?
this font sizing crap drives me up the wall
-
10,000 but yes, you have the idea.
It is important with most batteries that they are at the same state of charge as near as possible when they get connected, because the one with more volts will try to charge the other up until they both have the same voltage. When batteries that can deliver a huge current are involved, this can create problems both in the connecting wiring and sometimes in the batteries even with a small difference. After connection, when they are settled, they keep the same voltage, no problem.
"Y" harnesses are available ready made.
-
Good Day All
Having a quick look through the problem and looking at the pictures, I don't know if I've got this right, but I've been led to believe that the fuse goes in-between the motors and the esc. That way if the motor is stalled for some reason, the fuse will blow before the esc does.
-
I have always put my fuses between the battery and esc. As it is usually in the instructions I think the motor uses excess current which is thru the ESC which in turn is a higher than usual current from the battery. The fuse susses this out and blows. The only fuse I don't like is Quickblow. At time just turning the circuit on blows em
Martin
-
I had the same problem about a year ago everytime I connected up a viper marine 20 it blew got through four of them
sounds daft but my problem was the aeriel off the receiver was touching the prop shaft I did not realise and it blew as soon as I connected them up moved the ariel all was ok and has been ever since .
cheers