Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships - R&D: => Topic started by: Martin [Admin] on January 23, 2014, 12:59:12 PM

Title: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: Martin [Admin] on January 23, 2014, 12:59:12 PM
Via email from Bryan Young...

New RFA “Tide” Class. Part 1.

Forgive me if some of this is “old” news, but it may be interesting for all that.

I’ve taken the liberty of lifting the information from the latest edition of the RFA newsletter “Gunline”….not directly quoted, just some of the info.

   The 4 ships will be named “Tidespring”, Tiderace”, “Tidesurge” and “Tideforce”.

“Tiderace” is the only new name for an RFA.

The contract value worth £452m.

“Tidespring” will be the first vessel to be delivered (Oct. 2015).

“Tideforce” will be the 4th one (April 2017).

The new “Tides” will be slightly larger ( longer) at 200m than the “Wave” class at 181m. Total complement roughly the same at 108. (Including aviation staff….the core RFA complement is around 63)

I include the photo of Wave Knight for comparison purposes.

Bryan
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: Martin [Admin] on January 23, 2014, 12:59:44 PM
A general overview.

The cargo tanks will be 3 abreast, with the centre tanks being designated as “Issue Tanks”.

The RAS system will be broadly similar to those on the “Waves”….with some differences.

The first main difference is the method to be used for tensioning the jackstay wire. The new system will use an HP air powered ram-tensioner rather than putting all the weight on the winch motors.

The Tides will also have a covered foc,s,le head. With all the usual gear protected from the sea. The focsle also seems to be fitted with a missle launcher. The photo of Wave Knight shows a Phalanx sort of weapon. But I expect the Tide class will be “fitted for but not with” the missile launcher. (As is “Fort Victoria”.

From a modellers point of view, this new class of RFA could well be the easiest one ever to model. How so?

Well, for a start look at the apparent emptiness/lack of clutter on the main deck. This is because all the winches and drives are situated underneath the main deck and protected from the elements. This will make maintenance work a lot easier.

Also, the RAS rigs themselves are to be “boxed in” as opposed to being a very hard to model lattice work affair. The rigs will carry 2 x 7” hoses and one 2.5” hose. (Diesel, Aviation fuel and Fresh water). Earlier build Fleet Tankers were also fitted to supply FFO, but no RN ship uses FFO any more. Perhaps some other nations still do, so if they want to be re-fuelled they’ll have to find another filling station.

The windowless part of the superstructure contains the Hanger and aviation support facilities.

   The ships will be twin screw with a pair of 6.5m controllable pitch propellers supplied by Schottel. All propulsion and electrical generating equipment is duplicated port and starboard.

But these ships also have a Hybrid propulsion system.

Each shaft can be driven either by a main diesel engine or from the main diesel generators via a large motor-generator. This ystem can be used at speeds up to around 10 knots.

In the event of the main propulsion system becomes inoperable the secondary big “egg-beater system comes into action. This is fitted right forward and can provide a “Limp Home” capability….as well as acting as a bow thrusters unit.

   On completion of the main building process, the ships will come to the UK for extensive “customisation”. That is, fitting the ships with all the “special” gear that makes an RFA an RFA.

This is a very truncated version of the main article…but the authors finished it off with a “silly statistic”.

    A Range Rovers fuel tank connected to all 4 hoses would be full in 0.12 seconds. Unfortunately, the fuel would be passing through the nozzle at around Mach 2, thus completely destroying the car.

Title: Thanks to Martin.
Post by: Bryan Young on January 23, 2014, 04:23:16 PM
For some reason or another I can't find a "Paste" button on the Mayhem site.
So I sent my latest offering....about the new "Tide" class RFAs via e-mail direct to Martin.
He's very kindly posted it in the "Warships R&D" section.
For which I'm very grateful....thanks ,Martin.


If anyone has an idea how I can retrieve the "Edit/Paste" trigger then life as I used to know it can return.
Regards. BY.
Title: Re: Thanks to Martin.
Post by: kinmel on January 24, 2014, 07:03:17 AM
For some reason or another I can't find a "Paste" button on the Mayhem site.
So I sent my latest offering....about the new "Tide" class RFAs via e-mail direct to Martin.
He's very kindly posted it in the "Warships R&D" section.
For which I'm very grateful....thanks ,Martin.


If anyone has an idea how I can retrieve the "Edit/Paste" trigger then life as I used to know it can return.
Regards. BY.

Data can be pasted into the Reply box by putting the cursor where you want it and then pressing the " Control (Ctrl) " and " V " keys simultaneously.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: dodes on January 24, 2014, 08:56:04 PM
Are these the ones I have heard of for sometime that are being built in Korea because the UK has lost the skills to build.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: gingyer on January 25, 2014, 12:01:09 AM
Are these the ones I have heard of for sometime that are being built in Korea because the UK has lost the skills to build.


These are the ones dodes that are being built in Korea as no british yard tendered to build them!!
We must be very busy building ships the  >>:-( >>:-(
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: Liverbudgie on January 25, 2014, 01:08:11 AM
The reason these vessels are being constructed in Korea is because we, nor any other European yard, could build them at the cost the MOD wanted to pay. In essence it has been a trade off between reducing the defence budget or loosing jobs and skills in the UK.

It is not all bad news though, as there will be plenty of work in the fitting out stage and future refits for UK. I understand that the fitting out work will take place at Cammell Lairds, at Birkenhead, though this has yet to be confirmed.

Fort Victoria arrived at the yard two weeks ago for an eighteen month refit, this will see her converted into a dry stores ship. This is because she has a single hull and therefore cannot legally carry oils etc.  This fits in very nicely should Tidespring be arriving in the autumn of next year.

LB
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: derekwarner on January 25, 2014, 01:32:29 AM
 %)..... "the cost the MOD wanted to pay" ?........more the price offered  O0

The Korean Government subsidises ....their steel industry, their automotive industry & the marine/ship building industry...and many of the lower tier support industries for the principal manufacturers 

Many western Governments still do not understand how long subsidies of such magnitude can continue........ >>:-( ..... Derek

 
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: pugwash on January 25, 2014, 07:27:32 AM
%)..... "the cost the MOD wanted to pay" ?........more the price offered  O0

The Korean Government subsidises ....their steel industry, their automotive industry & the marine/ship building industry...and many of the lower tier support industries for the principal manufacturers 

Many western Governments still do not understand how long subsidies of such magnitude can continue........ >>:-( ..... Derek

Also Derek there are are so many rules and regs from Brussels and I believe many of them relate to subsidising ( or not) many industries - mind you
I think the French get away with it by having certain industries partly owned by their government.
Geoff
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: Circlip on January 25, 2014, 12:10:54 PM
Perhaps the foreign yards believe in giving a fair price? Not to worry though, if they're being fitted out over here, the MUD will get stung in true contract tradition.
 
  Strange how so many waft the Union Jack but don't have the same allegiance when it comes to home grown electronics and vehicles  {:-{
 
  Regards   Ian.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: Bryan Young on January 25, 2014, 02:04:56 PM
I'm sure that the Koreans would have been over-the-moon to heve been contracted to do the entire ship(s). I'm equally sure that they are capable of that. But there is a "Security" aspect that surely must be kept "in house" (ie the UK). Particularly where the military comms side of things is concerned.
These aspects are wher MoD is over a barrel. Just how many UK firms do you think would have a tender accepted? I think the list would be pretty small. So the element of "competitve pricing" fades somewhat. I don't think that the UK is alone in this. Many countries get the "basics" done abroad, but the "private" stuff is done "at home".
I also believe (know) that the MoD isn't always a "good" customer for Shipbuilders because specifications have a habit of being changed too often and at short notice. This leads to both time and cost overuns. Then penalty clauses could be invoked.
I've seen shipyard managers almost tearing their hair out when the RN Construction Corps is involved.  BY.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: McGherkin on January 25, 2014, 02:19:46 PM
To be honest, the Type 45's are a state, so it's probably a good thing they're being built in Korea.

Or at least let me on them, I'll do it properly  :-))
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: pugwash on January 25, 2014, 02:28:02 PM
To be honest, the Type 45's are a state, so it's probably a good thing they're being built in Korea.

Or at least let me on them, I'll do it properly  :-))
 

That is a sweeping statement (about the T45) - would you care to elucidate????

Geoff
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: McGherkin on January 25, 2014, 02:42:58 PM
I haven't worked on one yet personally, but the unanimous conclusion from everyone I've spoken to who's worked on them is that the build quality is terrible.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: gingyer on January 26, 2014, 02:36:25 AM
I haven't worked on one yet personally, but the unanimous conclusion from everyone I've spoken to who's worked on them is that the build quality is terrible.


That's strange because people I know who built them were tearing their hair out as
They were really strict on all aspects of the build compared to the Type23s.
Everything was checked and rechecked up to 4 or 5 times the reason given was they were to
Last a long LONG time in service
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: dodes on January 26, 2014, 05:02:26 PM
Talk about build quality, when I spoke to a DTi surveyor when Wave Knight was completing in Greenock, at the time he was conducting a ship safety survey on my vessel, we talked about the new tanker and his opinion was **** design, **** material and **** build quality, and he was a jock.
But Cameron says we should protect shipbuilding in the south, but contracts he has influence on go abroad and fitting out/ refurbishment is nothing like building work, seems this country is steadily loosing all its maritime skills.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 26, 2014, 05:24:38 PM
This is hardly the first time it has happened.

In the early year of the 20th Century during the great naval race between Britain and Germany there was a huge warship building programme with improvements being made to the 12 inch guns which were the initial primary armament standard. These were developed into the successful 13.5 inch weapon and finally the 15 inch twin turret and mounting was effectively ordered straight off the drawing board and was one of the best designs of all time. So good in fact that mothballed mountings from Courageous and Glorious during WW1 were refitted in Vanguard of 1946!

After WW1 a lot of people were laid off and there were many problems with the new 16 inch guns fitted to Nelson & Rodney which took a long time to correct. After the Great Depression, the skill situation become even worse which is why there were continuing malfunctions with the guns of Prince of Wales and King George V during the Bismarck hunt.

Once you allow expertise to be lost and cease to update your manufacturing capabilities, it takes a very long time to regain them and in the meantime your foreign competitors who have kept their capabilities intact and up to date will be winning all the contracts. Queen Mary 2 was largely designed in the UK but the skills to build a ship of that size on a competitive basis had effectively been lost and the contract went to France who had continued to build large ships at St Nazaire.

If you want to maintain a national warship construction capability then there has to be a steady stream of orders to a clearly defined programme. You can't just build a batch of ships and then send everybody home for five years or so until you want some more and expect them to pick up where they left off but the politicians do not understand this.

Colin
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: Bryan Young on January 26, 2014, 05:32:58 PM
Well, the 2 Waves have been going along pretty well for nearly 20 years now, so they couldn't have been all that rubbishy.
Now, if you'd said the 2 "Forts"(I'm referring to "Victoria" and "George", not "Austin" and "Grange") (expletive not used) I may have agreed with you.
But as you well know, all ships have early teething problems.
The internal layout of the "new" Forts is/was a nightmare. Until you really got to know the ship a Sat.Nav would have been a Godsend. BY.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: dodes on February 03, 2014, 09:04:01 PM
Well I know that Wave Knight after completion on her final inspection before going operational had all her pipe work to the cargo pumps replaced due to being of the wrong material. But Colin is right what he says about ship building and politicians, much can be said about the air industry!!!
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: condeh on February 04, 2014, 12:31:07 PM
If they want to save money they can stop the multi-million pound refits lasting months and months on end. Looking in from the commercial sector, it is truly laughable. A quote from the A&P website on the refit to RFA Argus :

Quote
Work started on January 21 this year and was completed in late June 13, involving an average of 200 A&P staff during the six month contract.
The work included upgrading lifeboats and davits, overhaul of the main engines, installation of an incinerator and shredder, new engine control systems, refurbishment of the ship’s hospital and a five-year paint and preservation package.


6 Months.... 6 Months... any commercial company operating with that sort of approach would be down the tube very, very, quickly. A previous company I worked for had the 5yr dry docks for the fleet, none of which lasted more than 4 weeks, and had a work order perhaps not quite as large as above, but certainly not 1/6th of it. (Note, the fleet is almost entirely chartered out to the MOD, so this isn't an MOD problem, its an RFA issue)
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: dodes on March 27, 2014, 08:55:04 PM
Part of the problem is when a MoD vessel appears for work the quote is always multiplied by 10, as the MoD is looked upon as an easy touch.
Title: Re: New RFA “Tide” Class.
Post by: J.beazley on November 12, 2018, 08:24:28 PM
Topic revival,


Does anyone know where i can obtain a set of plans for this class of ship???


Jay