Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Pleasure boats, Sports, Race, Power and Leisure Boats: => Topic started by: Biscuit on June 30, 2007, 06:32:19 pm
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Hi all, as if I have not enough to do !
I could not resist this buy, at £200 for boat engine tuned pipe, new clutch, all the parts to make it into twin rudders. The guy I bought it off did not have time to do it, he was going to make into a surface drive like the new model. Not sure what way to go on this as it will mean ripping out the prop tube and getting a new one to come out the lower part of the transom, do you think it will be worth converting it? will do the twin riders but not sure about the drive set up. Got 2 flex drives with it and spare prop, all the radio, large rudder servo, need to make new engine mounts because of the clutch, but overall I think I got a bargain, any tips or info on the drive system will be most welcome, might hang on to the Puma as no one seems that interrested in it, and it is such a nice boat, and as for the Bluebird well still waiting for my alloy parts to be made, so on the back burner for a while.
Biscuit.
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NICE!!!
If you don't post a video when it's finished... I'm ganna ban you from the forum! ::)
Martin
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Correct - absolute bargain.
I would go most definitely go with surface drive. You will need a strut, a flex shaft and prop tube to go with it, Americans call them stuffing tubes. There are variations on the theme when it comes to the drive end. I run the strut that I got from Prestwich and have had no problems. Easily adjustable, not as easy as a stinger drive, but not too much trouble.
Sure that someone else here will chip in. Ian across in Sweden is very knowledgeable on these things and will be able to offer advice.
Also, Dave Marles, as I said, sells the lot. One thing you might want to consider is a silencer of some kind for that pipe though, they are noisy without.
Have fun.
Glenn
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Thanks all,
I will try my best Martin, think gas is the way to go! found a new lake so raring to go !! as for the surface drive, I have the flexi drive, the only thing that it is a bit long and will move the engine back so I cant get to the starter ! can you cut the cable and re-solder the end back on? and has the engine got to be in the same place as the original for the C/G ? The clutch has also meant that the motor has to go back even more, should I get the motor in the same place and then sort out the drive?? As to the pipe think you can get a little end can to go on it, can anyone help me out on this ? and what motor is this ? (so many questions) cheers guys
Steve.
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Hi there,
engine appears to be a Zenoah G230PUM, 23cc motor, never had one but also never heard anything bad about them. They can be tuned so as you probably have little history on it, you are not going to know until you run what kind of performance to expect. I have a 26cc version that is tuned to somewhere just over 7 BHP, and it goes quite well, I suspect you will not be disappointed.
Yes, you can get little silencers that fit over the stinger, they are not great but do take some of the "zing" off the exhaust note. It may be in the future if you like it and decide to keep this that you might want to consider something quieter, like a Prestwich pipe.
I think your carb is not standard.
As a rule of thumb, centre of gravity on the boat completed wants to be somewhere around 30 forward of the transom, so engine, clutch radio etc in rough position where they will be and move the motor fore and aft until you achieve this.
Cut the shaft to suit the motor position.
Petrol is quite convenient, chuck some in, pull the cord and you are away.
This boat should be quite quick when built, so you are going to need some space to run it in.
Have fun.
Glenn
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Thanks Glenn,
The flexi drive has a square on the end that goes into the collet of the engine, so was thinking as it is to long, to un solder the drive end near the prop and then cut it and resolder it, is that possible, or should I buy a shorter flexi drive? also got to sort out the engine mounts, not sure what they look like, mine are not long enough now the clutch is on there. Anyone got any links or pics of how the motor mounts fit with the clutch on the engine
Cheers
Steve.
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Ok Going with surface drive, cut out the old prop tube don't look pretty but a bit of filler will work wonders ! :) the old tube is steel with a Teflon liner, on my other boats the drive cable ran straight in the brass tube. Will this be ok ? as I have some brass tube left over from another build, this is 8mm o/d by 7mm I/d the flexi drive fits in the tube nice as its 6mm diameter or 1/4" . Can use those engine mounts, as the clutch has lugs on which I can M/C off then the engine mounts will make up the the thickness of the lug, if you know what i mean. This will enable me to keep the engine in the same place as it was, might have to move the tank as the pipe looks a bit close. ??? any thoughts on the way I am goingThanks
Steve.
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hi
why bother with the clutch? if you fit it you will need a water pump to allow water to get to engine at tickover
steve
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Hi there,
picking up on what Steve said, I am not huge on clutches myself, if you do ditch the clutch you can fit a new collet straight to the motor, this can then be a round 1/4" drive collet, so this would enable the flex shaft to be cut at the drive end and refixed straight into the collet end. Actually, you can do this without ditching the clutch too.
http://www.prestwich.ndirect.co.uk/surfacedrive.htm
Have a look at the page on the link above for drive assmeblies, I am thinking SF2, 3 or 4 would suit you.
I have a round drive flexi shaft collet in the shed somewhere you can have if you want it, it came off a Zenoah PUM26, PM me your address if you want it and if I can put my hands on it I will chuck it into an envelope for you.
Notice you are at the holes in hulll stage, you might want to consider an additional and seperate water pickup for the engine or tuned pipe (manifold) cooling. I presume the maijn pickup is going to be in the rudder?
Also an auto bailer if you are going to fit one.....
Getting there though..
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Thought the clutch was a good Idea, why you not so keen? it is only going to tick over for very short time cant relay see it getting that hot, seen a few boats that run an air cooled motors with just the pipe water cooled. Going back to the shafts will it be OK to run straight into the brass tube? as I said the other one had Teflon sleeve, think I will stick to the clutch and sure I can do some thing with the flexi drive I have, thanks for the offer and the link, may have to get a flex drive without that lump that the prop shaft slides into with the 2 grub screws. The water pickup is on the back of the rudder struts, 2 of them suppose I will have to link them up.
Thanks
Steve
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Ok Guys,
Promise this will be my last post today as the wife is feeling lonely, drilled the hole in the transom for the shaft and un soldered the end off the flexi drive, could I just make a longer strut bracket so I could still use it as in the photo ? it would be an easy option, the length from the transom to the prop drive dog would be 90mm. I know this would be spinning in the water but would it make any difference as it was like this when it was the standard set up ??? ok thats it for today thanks for the info if you have any more on this set up drop me a line need all the help I can get thanks.
Steve
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Hi Steve,
And in response to yuor above, I replied while you were typing!
The ferrule can spin in the water OK, you are going to need to increase the distance from the transom to the drive dog some how to give you room to get the prop tube through the transom and leave clearance for the shaft. (they shorten when running on load, by 1/8" to 1/4" - leave 1/4" clearance. Also, make the hole through transom an elongated slot to allow up / down adjustment, and plug with somethiing flexible, like silicon, to allow adjustment at the lake. Some leave a hole I believe.
the exhaust gets really hot, really quickly without water flow through it, which can cook the O rings. Normally keep the water feeds seperate, one to the motor and the other to the exhaust.
Some people use the ferrule system you have with no problems, I have never used one before.
Clutch just seems extra weight plus the traditional water pumps etc required. More to go wrong too. Does make it easy to launch the boat though.
The flex shaft should be fine direct in the brass tube with plenty of grease in it.
And some advice I gained (after fitting mine!!), bend the tube in a gentle "S", IE two bends rather than one longer sweep from end to end, stops the shaft whipping around so much.
Glenn
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I know I said it was my last post but managed to sneak on, Thanks Glenn, just what I wanted to hear ! I can make a new transom bracket and still get the clearance, will make an S bend like you said with a plywood brace underneath, then glass it all in. Yeah I like the Idea of the clutch, do I relay need the pump? hope to get motor in and shaft tomorrow.
Thanks.
Steve.
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Looking good Steve. One thing I noted coming to this is that, from looking at your pictures, it appears you have a round collet at the motor already, so all you needed to do was cut the flex shaft to length. I hope that this will still be possible. If you have a square insert then all you need is a round insert to the collet.
Flex directly in the brass stuffing tube is what I have used in the past, as Glenn says some good waterproof grease in there and you will be fine.
If you do not intend to sit still and idle with the boat then a pump is not needed.
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There you go Steve, told you Ian would have some advice. Available for purchase are some very nice brackets that fit at the drive end and support the brass prop tube, they go between the 5" stringers to make a nice neat job of it.
Look at Ian's Sigma build thread to see what I mean. He has one there.
I have plywood in my current model, but my next one will have one fitted....
A couple of links that may be useful to you:
http://www.americanrcboats.com/howto.htm
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Forum_1.htm
Glenn.
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T-bars are ok, it is the first time I have used one in the Sigma.
Moving on, the motor you have is a 230, this is the older 2-port motor. It is not as powerful as the modern 4-port motors but is a good motor to start with. You can do standard 2-stroke mods to them to get the power up but if and when you want more power a new Zenoah or Sikk motor would probably be a better choice :)
The prop blast water pick up works OK I hear but have never used one. Those that I have seen tend to be placed at about 50% of the prop diameter at 1-2 o'clock seen from the rear. More important is to make sure the water outlet is visible so you can see if you have water or not when running. The pipe you have does not have o-rings I believe so you only need water to the head and exhaust flange, 1 pickup will do. Remember, water is in at the bottom and out at the top ;)
Drive dog at 95 mm should be good, you will then need to make sure the rudders leading edge is about the same or further back. You do not need 2 rudders, one on the starboard side would do. It reduces the ability to turn left but generally is faster. I do not like rudders that have the pivot behind the leading edge but as this is a budget build who cares ;D
The pipe you have is also OK but way too loud, you need to make or buy a silencer for it. There are pics and "how to's" on the net .
If you are going to use a square drive at the motor then the prop shaft and ferrule set up as you have it will be ok. If you are going to clamp the flex in a collet then you need to make sure that you have about 5-6mm between the strut and the drive dog. This allows for shrinkage in the flex as it winds up and shortens under power (as already stated by Glenn) and can bind/break :(
You want to set this boat up with a CG of around 25-28% of hull length.
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Thanks A lot of info there !
Could I put the 4 port barrel on the engine, say a 26cc, have done this on some of my 1/5 scale cars but maybe these were 4 port anyway. Been told that the 23cc motor is good in boats because it revs higher?? I normally just stick a 29cc big bore kit on my car motors, gives a massive increase in bottom power and still seems to rev its head off !, what is the best way to bend the prop tube in an S shape without putting a kink in it? has it got to be in an s shape as it would fit with just a shallow curve? as to the rudders I have 2 of them, and being a big kid at heart love the look of them so very tempted to fit em ! The new Shockwave has 2 rudders and 2 big servos, sure 1 high powered servo will be ok ??? Trying to find the little silencer that goes on end of the pipe as dint want it noisy. Made the strut bracket today, all seems to line up fine, will have to cut the cable to size once the motor and tube are in, the C/G should be ok I think as the motor is back to where it was, there is just the added weight of the clutch but dint think this will be a problem. As to the hull, not going to spend loads of money on a paint job like I did on the Puma see how it goes first, spend the money on a better motor or running gear. :)
Thanks everybody for your help, I am sorry but I will keep asking questions and posting pictures, as want to get this right ! :)
Steve.
Ps took the choke out today, and what do you think of the strut bracket and set up, thanks again.
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Don't apologise!!! Pics are good, this is a nice thread for others thinking of going the same way. Nice brackets you made there ;D
No, you can't just throw a 26 jug on this, the ports don't match up. The 4-port car motor came a long time before the marine 4-port ::) There were guys in the USA doing hybrid conversions to get the 4-port advantage before the 231 came out. The 23 you heard as potentially revving higher is the 4-port engine, due to bigger transfers and lighter piston than the 26.
You can bend the prop tube by heating it to soften it (cherry and then air cool), putting the flex inside to stop it collapsing and then gentle pressure over your knee. When you have it as you want it, heat it again and quench in water. An S is said to give less drag and whip (2 bearing points) but a gentle curve will do, try and keep it straight 75-100 mm before the strut. You want about 15-20mm between the stuffing tube and the motor, no more or it could give you problems :(
Fun boat, you want 2 rudders, use 2 rudders ;D I would suggest a 1/4 scale servo (Hitec 705MG or similar) on a Y-lead and 6V for steering but I like meaty servos ;D others use high torque standard size servos.
Painting the boat doesn't have to cost a lot, I use rattle cans and/or International yacht paint.
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Don't know if you are a member at Jims but try this link
http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=3569&highlight=muffler (http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=3569&highlight=muffler)
This describes using an internal stinger to reduce noise, how to make etc and on the pipe you have.
The alternative is to do something like this
http://www.jrcbd.com/photopost/data/544/mgilmanMidWCooper.jpg (http://www.jrcbd.com/photopost/data/544/mgilmanMidWCooper.jpg)
like this
http://www.rocketcityracing.com/images/products/QDS.jpg (http://www.rocketcityracing.com/images/products/QDS.jpg)
or like this
http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=1905&highlight=muffler (http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=1905&highlight=muffler)
Hope this helps with the noise issue ;D
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Thanks for the thumbs up :)
Got the motor in, can you have a look at the pictures at the drive line ? looks a nice gentle curve, would this be ok? and it would be very easy to put this slight bend in the tube. Must say a bit disappointed that its only a 2 port engine, but hoping that the surface drive will boost its performance ??? still, seen a few motors on E-Bay that claim monster power figures, at very good prices but a bit sceptical :o
Thanks
Biscuit
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OK its all in there, cut the cable, cut the tube and bent it to shape, it allmost runs flat along the bottom of the hull, left a small gap between Ferrel and transom, hope this is right ???
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HI Steve,
looks OK, so long as there is approx 1/4" gap between ferrule and tube you should be OK. I shouldn't worry too much about the motor being 2 port just now, once running and set up you can then decide how to proceed, maybe some porting work to improve performance to start. The good thing with the Zenoah is that they share the same external dimensions so the 26cc motor should drop staright in at a later date should you so desire.
What are you planning on doing for a fuel tank for this one?
Glenn
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Thanks Glenn,
So I am going the right way then ? :) Hoping to get the tank along the side of the left hand motor rail, the radio box is going is going to be the big problem, the pipe is in the way, got a shallow radio box but got to get the rudder linkage out and up higher some how ??? any Idea what kind of performance I am going to get out of this motor, as I feel I am doing all this work and going to end up with a slow boat, but like you said could always drop bigger motor in. well stuck with it now, so got to make the best of it. ;)
Steve.
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110145534982&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:uk
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Aye,
you are right, the pipe over the top of the radio box is always a pain in the - well - painful things. Make the pipe run high enough you can get the lid off the back when needed.
I'm now watching the one Martin put the ebay link to, only ten miles from home.
Persevere as you are going, looks OK so far.
I would not have thought that you will be any way disappointed with the performance of this model when completed as is.
It should be quicker (a lot quicker) than your SC61 boat.
Glenn
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Got the rudders on tonight, or should I say rudder as I am waiting for the second one, the bellcranks that go on top of the rudder are very poorly made with the hole being to big to clamp up tight so will make some better ones. Think I have come up with a cunning plan for the radio box by laying the servos down and moving the box over to one side, only going to use that one massive high power servo on the rudders, sure this will be OK, so not going too bad so far.
Biscuit
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OK Rudders are on !! took a bit of thinking as to where I was going to fit the radio box but think I have it sorted now, moved it over one side and made 2 brackets to mount it to the engine runners and on to the radio box. Rudder servo is in and the throttle one looks like it will go in easy, only got about 10mm clearance between radio box and pipe do you think that will be enough ? Not sure what way to go with the Rx cells, got a brand new 1400mah Nmh 5 cell pack very light, or do you think I should stick to the sub c size? ??? next headache is where to fit the tank, got a bit of an Idea :P
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OK Rudders are on !! took a bit of thinking as to where I was going to fit the radio box but think I have it sorted now, moved it over one side and made 2 brackets to mount it to the engine runners and on to the radio box. Rudder servo is in and the throttle one looks like it will go in easy, only got about 10mm clearance between radio box and pipe do you think that will be enough ? Not sure what way to go with the Rx cells, got a brand new 1400mah Nmh 5 cell pack very light, or do you think I should stick to the sub c size? ??? next headache is where to fit the tank, got a bit of an Idea :P
Hi Steve,
I think the battery pack you have (The NiMh) should be OK. As for fuel tanks, why not try an IV bag tank? Gives you loads of options.
Depends on how much breeze you can get past the pipe as to how well the radio box will survive the heat from the pipe. It will get pretty warm I should think.
One thing that I think is going to be really really critical now in set up is to make sure the rudders are perfectly parallel to each other, otherwise you are going to end up with loads of drag.
Glenn
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I have the pipe on my L ynx that close, lots of air and aluminium tape on the radiobox should keep everyting ok.
The water pickups aren't going to do a lot of good on the side with the rudders, you are always going to lose one when the boat heels over in turns. Try one flush on the bottom as in my Sigma thread or a real prop blast pickup as shown here http://gallery.intlwaters.com/displayimage.php?album=759&pos=7 (http://gallery.intlwaters.com/displayimage.php?album=759&pos=7)
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Yeah I thought that, when the boats on the plane they will hardly be in the water ! not looked at your link yet but guess its a pick up over the top of the prop. Made the radio box today, next is sorting out the tank, thanks for the advice.
Biscuit.
Ps just seen the link, yep thats what I thought, cool !
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guess its a pick up over the top of the prop
Correct ;D Made the radio box today
Hope you did a better job than I did with mine ::) (Still a work in progress)
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Well I am very pleased with the radio box, wired it up tonight and it all works fine ! :) that huge servo has more than enough power to turn those 2 rudders, going to use one of those rubber plugs to get access to the switch and charging lead. Thanks for the offer of the bag Glenn, but managed to get the tank in, its mounted to one of the engine rails, hope the vibration does not foam the fuel ??? Ripped it all out tonight to start work on the hull, fill in where the old prop shaft was and the other holes here and there that I don't need. Going to put the motor and prop shaft in tomorrow and line it all up then glass it all in, really looking forward to taking this out, and I am sure I will change the colour. :P
Biscuit
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Glassed the prop shaft in today, now its just a case of locktite the screws and nail it all together ! hoping to get out next week. Been on a few forums about the 23cc motor, seems it aint that bad after all. :)
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Hi all,
Well its all in there now, pipe looks cool comming out in between the dummy pipes, still a bit close to the radio box, need to tidy up the hole around the pipe, but its almost ready to go !! :D
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Looking good. What did you use for a throttle cable connector at the carb end?
Glenn
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Well Glenn, I have a bracket and kind of alloy bolt which goes through said bracket that the cable fits in, the inner cable then connects to the carb with a collet and small grub screw, only trouble is that I over tightend the alloy bolt and it snapped, no problem will make a new one. Could not live with that radio box being so close to the pipe so ripped it all out again ! looked at it for hours, then it came to me, flip the bracket it sits on round, this moves the whole box over about 20mm, then drill another hole in the transom, (as if there aint enough allready) on the other side for the push rod, turn bellcrank around and its sorted. This has taken me most of the day, now all I need to do is solder the drive cable, given up on this as I can not find my plumbers flux, tried to use silver solder but you have to get it too hot, hopfully I have not ruined it and my mate at work will be able to sweat the end on for me. What do you guys use ???
Biscuit
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I see what you used for the throttle cable, thanks, I struggled to find something I was happy with, got there eventuallly with it.
Soft solder should do your shaft.
Need to get it well cleaned up, try to find some "bakers soldering flux" if you can. It is really, really corrosive stuff mind, so as soon as the soldering is done you need to get it all washed off thoroughly.
Glenn
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Glenn,
Seeing I have two water pickups, could I use one for the motor and one for the manifold ? although this would need two outlets, or do I use a T piece and one outlet if you know what I mean? The bore of the pickups is very small will make a new system when I get time, but I am trying to get it ready for Saturday. Any one know where I can get those push and twist hatch fasteners ??
Thanks
Steve.
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As you have 2 pickups out to the side I would run them to a Y and then to the head and manifold as I am concerned that you will end up with no cooling somewhere when you turn. In colder water send it to the manifold first.
You have done such a good job so far I really believe you would be better off making a true prop blast pickup and ditching the 2 in front of the rudders.
Nice radio setup by the way ;D
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Glenn,
Seeing I have two water pickups, could I use one for the motor and one for the manifold ? although this would need two outlets, or do I use a T piece and one outlet if you know what I mean? The bore of the pickups is very small will make a new system when I get time, but I am trying to get it ready for Saturday. Any one know where I can get those push and twist hatch fasteners ??
Thanks
Steve.
Hi Steve,
both Prestwich and Ian's boats do the push and turn fasteners. So do lots of motorbike shops that sell race fairings. If you are struggling you could alwoays temporarily put a couple of nuts and bolts through the deck and stretch a couple of elastic bands over to keep the hatch on until the proper fasteners arrive.
Should get you on the water.
Like Ian said, may be prudent to consider a different cooling water pickup method. I like Ians flush pickup.
Should be abale to knock one up quite quickly I would have thought. Less drag than the ones you have too..
Glenn
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Yeah Glenn will change it, can you just have a look at the photos and see if I have connected the water pipes up right ??? just got to get a T piece to join the 2 pipes together for the time being. Boat is ready to go apart from the hatch fasteners, been up to bike shop but they are way to big, Dave has Emailed me but I don't like that type of fastener, so it looks like I am stuck. Have made a simple bracket to hold the pipe at the rear, taking the trim tabs to work to polish them up ! also put an o-ring around the pipe exit hole to tidy it up a bit, plus ripped the decals off the top of the boat and polished it up. Not sure how I should set it up for its first run, got the prop straight with the bottom of the boat at the moment, just one more thing, I am running in salt water what do I do with it after its been run as I know things tend to corrode bad.
Thanks.
Steve.
Ps got a nice little trolley today, £12.50 just got to sort out how to locate the boat on it. :)
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Yeah Glenn will change it, can you just have a look at the photos and see if I have connected the water pipes up right ??? just got to get a T piece to join the 2 pipes together for the time being. Boat is ready to go apart from the hatch fasteners, been up to bike shop but they are way to big, Dave has Emailed me but I don't like that type of fastener, so it looks like I am stuck. Have made a simple bracket to hold the pipe at the rear, taking the trim tabs to work to polish them up ! also put an o-ring around the pipe exit hole to tidy it up a bit, plus ripped the decals off the top of the boat and polished it up. Not sure how I should set it up for its first run, got the prop straight with the bottom of the boat at the moment, just one more thing, I am running in salt water what do I do with it after its been run as I know things tend to corrode bad.
Thanks.
Steve.
Ps got a nice little trolley today, £12.50 just got to sort out how to locate the boat on it. :)
Hi Steve,
For the cooling, to get you going initially for this weekend : try a tee between (or better if you can find one a "Y " piece) between both water pick ups, basically you are linking them together, then take the newly created single feed to the bits that need cooling.
As you are in the UK and the water is not warm, I would run into the bottom of the exhaust manifold, through that and into the engine before going over the side.
Should get you going.
Longer term might be wise to cool the manifold and motor seperately.
Might try these people for Dzus fasteners for your hatch: http://www.southco.com/landingpages/dzus/
Glenn
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Glenn,
Could not find a Y piece, only a T piece, so decided to make my own, made the hatch fasteners, plus connected up the pipes, thread locked every thing in sight, the ride hight of the prop is about level with the bottom of the hull. Going to buy a whip Ariel tomorrow, and guess what took the trim tabs to work and forgot to polish them up, quite pleased with the conversion, hope it goes as well as it looks, think I might have to lower the prop a bit. If you see any thing that could be improved on let me know please, will be out Saturday morning. :)
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Looks about ready to rock and roll. Have fun. Did you manage to find a silencer yet for your pipe? Not sure where you are running but you would get complaints where we are up here.
Glenn
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No not yet, tried to get on Jims site but its not going too well, its used my e-mail address for my user name ??? but I know I will have to get one, where we run is out of the way, only want to try it out, thanks for the help along the way, all of you
Steve.
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You can make your own silencer/muffler, the famous "mousse can" or something more complicated. The two versions can be viewed at MGB, http://www.modelgasboats.com/Magazine_Content/How-to_Articles.html (http://www.modelgasboats.com/Magazine_Content/How-to_Articles.html)
Another one to adapt can be found here http://www.prestwich.ndirect.co.uk/silencin.htm (http://www.prestwich.ndirect.co.uk/silencin.htm)
Remember all a silencer does is a) let the gases expand b) change the direction of the sound wave a couple of times. If you can achieve these two things then you will be quieter ;D
Scott Schneider on Jims got a reduction on a similar pipe to yours by extending the stinger in to the widest part of the pipe, this seems to be one of the ways forward, bleeding the exhaust from the largest part of the pipe (lowest pressure).
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Might be for a quick test run that the method suggested by Ian of extending the stinger back into the wider part of the pipe might be easily the quickest way to get you going quietly, find some tight fitting tube and shove it in there, it will probably knock the performance a bit but is probably as good a way as any of getting going quickly and quietly.
Glenn.
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Steve, if you log on to Jims then this is the thread http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=3569 (http://www.jrcbd.com/showthread.php?t=3569)
If you don't know the name then Scott is an engine "guru". He considers the "china pipe" stinger too large and the internal stinger was his answer both to stinger size (performance) and noise reduction. Enjoy ;D
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Thanks for that, have made a piece of pipe today, fits nice in the stinger but wont go all the way down because the weld has penetrated inside where the stinger meets the cone of the pipe, do you just push this pipe in with out any holes like a 2stroke motorcycle? could file the inside of the pipe but don't want to get any filings in to the motor, think I like the look of the stinger on the back, anyway boat in the water no matter what ! :)
Thanks Guys
Steve.
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That looks about right, you need one hole just by the pipe/stinger transition so you can drain any oil or, in the event of a flip, water out.
Photos from Scott Schneider.
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Well Guys my bad luck with boats continues :( Took the shockwave out this morning, started fine sounded really crisp and not noisy at all, ran it up and down just to check that the cooling system was working, took a little while to see the water come out of the outlet, but when the boat picked up speed it was comming out about 6 inches so thought it was OK. Well turned it around and opened the throttle it just started to really move then spluttered and stopped, guessed it might be a little lean because of the pipe, no problem we will richen it up a little. So got the boat back altered the mixture and tried to start it but guess what no compression ! what the hell happend there then? I am completely gutted once again I have spent hours on a boat going over every thing just to go over the lake and come home without a run. Bought a new piston ring this afternoon, plus ordered a water pump that runs of the carb, has anyone any Idea as to what went wrong ? it could not have got that hot there was a good jet of water comming out the side, maybe the ring juts broke or there was something in the engine that wore it out, I dont know, will take it apart this afternoon and have a look.
Steve
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Tough luck, it happens to us all, let's hope it's not a dead engine. Take the head off and then we might be able to help.
What oil ratio were you running and what oil?
Just a thought, you did give it a look over and oil it up after you got hold of it didn't you?
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I used the same oil I use in my 1/5 scale cars, its King Cobra Venom, the gold bottle, mix is 150ml to 5litres of fuel. engine only ran for about 3Min's.
Steve.
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Well Thats the end of that! :'(
Something must of got into the engine from the carb side as its taken out the piston and barrel, when I took the choke out I made sure I got the ball and the spring out so its not that ! maybe when I was building something got in there ??? so where do I go from here? a new e-bay motor for £140 or a new 23cc piston and barrel £70 there is a lot of grey alloy in the crankcase, and who knows what else is in there, could wash it out, what you think guys??
Steve.
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Anyone know what these bits might be ??? found them in the crankcase, going to keep on flushing out the crankcase then buy another 23cc piston and barrel, as I have been told they rev higher, got a horrible feeling that those bits look like the remains of a spring, but it cant be the choke spring as they are a lot thinner, and like I said I am sure I got it out, tell me there is only one in the carb ! Please !!!
Steve.
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Check your carb, is the idle screw still there? If not I would guess it is that spring. Most will normally remove this screw to allow the motor to be killed with the radio. Sorry we missed this earlier :-[
For the future, your ratio, whilst fine for cars is weak for a boat motor, most are running a synthetic at around double that, 16:1. I run Castrol TTS, others have their own favourites.
Hope you find a new piston/cylinder for it soon.
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Check your carb, is the idle screw still there? If not I would guess it is that spring. Most will normally remove this screw to allow the motor to be killed with the radio. Sorry we missed this earlier :-[
For the future, your ratio, whilst fine for cars is weak for a boat motor, most are running a synthetic at around double that, 16:1. I run Castrol TTS, others have their own favourites.
Hope you find a new piston/cylinder for it soon.
Hi all, notice form the photo's that the idle screw is still present and correct (and complete witha spring) on one of the photo's on the build.
Tough break Steve, especially after the last effort with the SC61. Should be plenty of pistons and cylinders around to get you moving.
Glenn
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How gut wrenching is that!!!! >:(
How long did the engine run for?
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Yeah, you wouldn't think it could happen again what is it with me and boats?? never mind looks like it could of been my fault again, still the boat looks like its got potential even though it only run for about 3 Min's, would like to keep it as 23cc. My engine is the old 2 port 2 piston ring engine, but sounded really nice and crisp on the throttle, don't know if I can still get this piston and barrel or do you think the new 23cc 4 port single ring piston and barrel will fit ? I will not give up on this one as it did start easy and all I had to carry over to the lake was the boat and Tranny ! So need your help again, been on e-bay can only find 26cc engine parts and motors, anyone got any other links for the 23cc engine ?
Thanks
Steve.
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ZENOAH-G260PUM-ENGINE-WT-257-CARB-RC-BOAT-PETROL-GAS_W0QQitemZ300127962543QQihZ020QQcategoryZ2564QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This fella does complete motors cheap as £139, I think ifyou contact him he does spares too.
http://search.stores.ebay.co.uk/rcworldwide-com_zenoah_W0QQfcdZ2QQfciZQ2d1QQfclZ4QQfrtsZ30QQfsnZrcworldwideQ2dcomQQfsooZ1QQfsopZ1QQfsubZ0QQsaselZ97427162QQsofpZ0
This one does Zenoah spares but lists cylinder and piston for PUM26 only, maybe email him and ask. 26cc piston and cylinder 46 quid, might be better with new motor at £139.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/PMB-rc-parts_Zenoah_W0QQfsubZ5700176QQfrsrcZ1
This one is Prestwich's ebay shop, Dave does (or can get) most Zenoah parts.
http://www.bhhanson.com/bhabout.htm
This one is for BH Hanson in the states. Their service is always good and they can get spares.
With luck, you will find the parts you need, I presume they still make spares for the 23cc motor.
Good luck,
Glenn
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Thanks for the Links Glenn,
As I am in this situation I have been looking around at various motors, and come to the conclusion that 23cc is the way to go, this motor seems to rev higher and seems to go well on a steel tuned pipe like mine. My Model shop deals with King Cobra, so been in touch and they can do me a new 4 port single ring piston set up that should go straight on my crankcase, this should be a good power increase over my old 2 port set up :) what you think?
Thanks
Steve
Ps just one other thing, there was a lot of water coming up the prop shaft, can you put some type of o-ring or seal on the end of the tube, the flexi shaft is 6mm and the tube is 7mm I/D so quite a bit of clearance. ???
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I am almost 100% sure that the 4-port head will not fit on the 2-port case without significant work, the ports don't match up. You need a 2-port head or a new motor. :( In stock form the larger volume of the ports and the lighter piston mean that the 23 will potentially rev higher than the 26.
Water up the stuffing tube is nothing to worry about, a good bit if grease on the flex and the problem goes away. Also it is only a problem when the boat is still and who keeps a speed boat still for any length of time...NOT me at least...... ;D
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Hi Steve,
I think Ian is correct I am afraid, not sure the parts are interchangeable, have asked the question of one of my techy mates!!
Will let you know the outcome.
Glenn
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OK, got the reply from Al at BHHanson:
Afraid it is not great news, copied and pasted below:
"Glen, the ports dont line up and the cylinder wont fit the case. The bolt spacing is also wider on the late model case/cylinder...and the new engine uses the larger bore carb. I have gaskets, rings, 2 ring pistons available for the old engine. no cylinders."
If you can find a cylinder somewhere you can get the rest, but most likely for the costs involved, it may be better to bin what you have and get a new motor.
Glenn
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OK Glenn thanks,
It looks like its going to be hard to get the old cylinder and piston, phoned my shop and told them but its on its way, but they said no problem they can send it back, so will be looking for a new 23cc motor I suppose, nothing is easy is it? this cheap project has turned out not so good.
Cheers
Steve.
Ps again, Do you thing the 26cc motor will be just as good as that 23cc, bearing in mind I am running that steel tuned pipe? I could just buy that £139 motor of e-bay.
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I see no reason the 26cc motor won't be as good Steve, I think the tuned pipe is sold as being suitable for the 26 and 23cc motors. You will probably need to run a bigger prop to get the benefit of the bigger motor. Might be some second hand ones kicking about if you keep your eyes open on ebay etc.
At least spares are available.
The other choice is to find a cylinder and rebuild yours, would be the cheapest option.
Glenn
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Cheers Glenn,
Been in touch with that guy Blueyfishy, got motors in stock for £139 plus postage £14, will wait and check out that new cylinder just to make sure it wont fit, then probably buy the 26cc. Have you any Idea what the cylinder is made of ? as I could bore it out to take a 26cc piston and save the motor for my other SC powered nitro boat, have access to a large M/C shop, or maybe weld up the scores in the cylinder and re- m/c them back, just a thought. Once again thanks for the replies its keeping me going, off work sick at the moment so trying to get it sorted while I am at home.
Thanks
Steve.
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Not sure Steve, most lilkely it will be Nikasil or some other hard coating on the aluminium. Not sure it is feasible to bore out that farto take a 26cc piston, also, the piston is heavier.
Glenn
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As Glenn advises unless you have access to plating services then re-boring then cylinder is not an option, sorry :( (I believe they are Nikasil as well)
Save the crank and your pennies to build one of these maybe :o
(http://www.rcmk.com/upload/goodcate/goodcate_020600.jpg)
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WOW !!
That sure looks nice ! maybe I can have a play with my old motor got a few 23cc car cylinders laying about, I know these are only a 2 bolt crankcase fixing but got a load of bits a large m/c shop and time to fiddle :) in the mean time I have bought that 26cc motor off Bluefishy even though the price has gone up to £145, mind you he did knock a £5 off the postage, he reckoned with my pipe it should pull 16500rpm seems optimistic but who knows ! on the prop size, I have on the boat at the moment a bronze looking thing that just has a number on it saying 467, in my box of bits I have found another prop which says Prather 270 ?? the Pranther looks brand new, if this is the one to use would it need balancing ? it looks kind of dark grey in colour.
Thanks
Steve.
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Hi all,
My new motor turned up this morning, not bad as I bought it 11.30 yesterday, £145 for 26cc engine plus race carb and alloy throttle link, tool kit as well. Says got to run it in for 3 tanks at 1/4 throttle is this right? plus do you think I should run a pump, as going this slow might overheat the engine with my cooling set up. But not a bad price eh? even sent me 2 "Bluefishy78.com" stickers, will be using this guy again he was very helpfull, well now time to fit it.
Thanks,
Steve.
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The bronze prop is an Octura, 67mm in diameter with a pitch of 93.8mm (67 x 1.4 ratio) and should work well with the 26. The Prather is 70mm with a pitch of 106.7mm and is probably a slightly better choice to start with. Grey in colour means stainless so balancing and sharpening will take a little longer. You should also check the balance of the Octura before you run it. Octuras contain beryllium and you should wear a mask, long sleeves and take precautions not to spread the dust around. I do filing and sanding in a bowl of water.
16500 with a pipe should be achievable.....
Running in you will get many opinions, run it like you stole it, take it easy and build up, one fast. one slow etc etc. The one I have heard and used is to run the engine until hot and then let it cool totally, repeat this 4-5 times then go for it.
Use a good oil, I use synthetic (Castrol TTS) and at the ratio 16:1. Good luck......
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Hi Steve,
pretty fast delivery time. I'm with Ian, I actually use the same Castrol oil too. Run it around to warm it through without going too nuts, then bring it in and cool it off, I use a rich mixture to make it run cooler and get more oil through the motor.
I did mine for about total of 30 - 40 mins running time, getting slightly longer each time then started to lean it out and run it faster. Been OK so far.
I wouldn't bother with the pump, just make sure you are getting cooling water over the side as you run it. You don't want it too cool - You of all people know what can happen!!
Good luck.
Glenn
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Thanks Glenn,
Got the motor in today, took a while as you have to change over the mounts and put the clutch on, must make myself a clutch puller! Still its in, took me ages to make a bracket to hold the throttle cable as the carb is very different to mine, it was one of those jobs where you cut up loads of cardboard templates, then try to make it out of alloy sheet, (not so easy is it) now I am waiting for the o- rings for the pipe as the old one looked a bit deformed, comming from Dave Males hopefully. Got no primer, guess you just stick your finger in the crab and Wang it over a few times ??? still not sure about the pump.
Steve.
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Yip,
I believe that is the technique employed, finger over and two or three pulls, then try with no finger. Repeat until it starts. You'll get the feel for it once you have it set up.
ONe thing I did buy for my motor fairly early on and mine did break, is a replacement bit that goes inside the pull start, original is plastic and they can break, got an aluminium one from Hanson I think it was. Works OK ever since.
Might be a worthy spare for your tool box, maybe just don't be as rough as me with the pull start will help too.
Enjoy!!
Glenn
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Remove the idle screw and set your tickover with your radio. This will also allow you to kill the motor with your radio.
No need for a finger just close the throttle and the butterfly will do the job...
Glenn must be a bit heavy handed ;) take up the slack in the rope first and then pull it over, should last for years, mine have 8) Good tip though, hate to loose a day at the lake because the rope breaks :(
Needles should add up to 3 as a rough guide, low 2 high 1 (that is turns out....) but a little richer won't hurt to start with.
See you are double teaming us on RCU ;) Good advice from both forums ;D
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Yeah I am, as you can see by my disasters need all the help I can get, :-\ thanks for the tips, out the weekend.
Steve.
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See these as teething troubles Steve - disasters to come. Ian was just proclaiming the joys of seeing your handywork disappear under a wave at 50+MPH to me.
What fun.......
Still, sure it won't happen to you. Have fun at the weekend, have you had the motor started yet?
Glenn
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That was a ripple Glenn ::) a wave is easier to accept....
Teething troubles come to all of us, I had my mod 260 gall a few runs into its' life, lost cooling and hej presto a toasted cylinder and piston :(
Enjoy the weekend with your boat, take it easy, out and run, bring it in, whilst cooling check ALL fasteners, run again and repeat. It will take a while but you will see what requires Loctite, a lock washer or a locknut. At the end of the day strip what you need to, flex cable out, spray with WD40 or similar, dry and store, I have a vertical tube filled with automatic transmission fluid that I use. Grease and fit before the next time out.
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Glenn must be a bit heavy handed ;) take up the slack in the rope first and then pull it over, should last for years, mine have 8) Good tip though, hate to loose a day at the lake because the rope breaks :(
Needles should add up to 3 as a rough guide, low 2 high 1 (that is turns out....) but a little richer won't hurt to start with.
See you are double teaming us on RCU ;) Good advice from both forums ;D
Would this work Yes I know its heavy but has anyone tried these on boats, I would like to build a scale boat in the future and was thinking about a zenoah ..
Peter
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/FEMA-STARTER-FOR-ZENOAH-G260PUM_W0QQitemZ260140861246QQihZ016QQcategoryZ140971QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Should start the engine as it says.
I think Pete486 was messing on with one a while back, his was home made though.
Would not have it on a sport boat, as you say, it will be heavy, especially with the battery on there too.
Good novelty value though. On a big scale model or similar I guess the weight won't make any difference really, you are not after huge performance there.
Glenn.
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No Glenn, not started it, did not think that I could till I was at the lake as it needs to be cooled and run under load so I thought ??? might try and sneak out tomorrow on my own.
Steve.
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Have fun then. Keep us posted. I thought everyone had a little tug with some fuel in it when it was new and in the shed just to make sure it will start.
Glenn
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Do you chaps ever run air filters ? in far distant past I ran 1/8 cars and ic boats ( fast scale) and always ran filters to stop them eating all the stuff that would float about on impacts.
Peter
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Do you chaps ever run air filters ? in far distant past I ran 1/8 cars and ic boats ( fast scale) and always ran filters to stop them eating all the stuff that would float about on impacts.
Peter
I did on cars, never on planes or boats. Fairly clean environment on boats. Apart from the odd spring knocking about (Sorry Steve!!).
Not sure about everyone else, although I've not seen many HS93.
Glenn
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Thanks for that Glenn, :P
Well its pouring of rain here so not much to write today, few of us out tomorrow (hopefully), the engines got a good spark and petrol so there is no reason why it wont start is there?? :) I have raced cars most of my life 1/8 off road and 1/5 0n road, you have to have filters on them or the motor would last about 5 Min's, but in boats you should not need them, although I have heard you can bend the rod if the motor sucks in water and locks up, but what are the chances of that happing to me :o
Steve
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Think positive thought Steve!!
Sure it will all be fine. Nice easy day running in and getting a couple of gallons of fuel through the motor, good way to get to grips with the new model too, as Ian said earlier, good opportunity to check all the hardware / nuts & bolts etc while the motor is cooling off.
Weather permitting of course.
Where are you running?
Glenn
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We will be at Coal House Fort Tilbury, salt water but a nice stretch, and we ain't been moaned at yet. ::)
Steve.
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That's always half the battle Steve - not getting moaned at.
Have a good weekend and keep us posted on the weekend progress please.
Glenn
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Well you wont believe this guys !
You know I said we found a nice stretch of water where we did not get moaned at? well just got the boat out of the car when up comes the Ranger and says "You cant run that here" they have had a complaint about the noise ! well I could of cried :'( all that work and still could not run it, worlds gone mad, all I wanted was an hour at the lake. My mate then turned up but no amount of reasoning would change his mind, so what now ? my mate took me to another lake far from Ideal but somewhere to run, but got a tank through it, but with this engine its 10 times louder too loud, plus my Heart was not in it, I had bought this boat because we had found somewhere to run but now what do I do ? very disappointed in the boat anyway apart from being too loud its very slow, I know I am running it in, but 1/4 throttle is just as fast as full throttle, sorry to be so negative but I was expecting more from it, plus losing the lake well you can imagine how I feel, so boats chucked in the shed 2 boats up for sale now feel I have wasted a lot of money will I ever learn?
Steve.
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Right,
first off you need to find another bit of water, probably mean joing a club somewhere.
As to the speed of the boat, I'm sure it's got the potential to be hitting the 40 ish range, it just needs setting up properly. It takes time Steve, and patience.
Keep your chin up, it's good when you get one flying along, honest.
Glenn
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Wow Steve, that's tough... New water and test, test, test. Once it's running well you will forget the hassles ;D
Away for a week, no internet....(withdrawal symptoms already) Hope for better news when I return ;)
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Hi all,
Boat now up for sale, look in sale area.
Thanks.
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Hi,
Just a quick update, found a new lake boats going well some Video of it on Youtube, posted by WayneUK01 so boats deffinitely not up for sale anymore.
Biscuit