Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: Rodgearing on March 30, 2014, 05:58:16 PM

Title: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 30, 2014, 05:58:16 PM
Can any one help me with what I need to put into a dive unit please.  I have built the tube its going into but I'd like to know what electronics needs to go in it, please.
Thanks Fred
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 06:43:01 PM
Sorry not very helpful.
What do I need to go into my WTC.
Couple of servos for dive and steering
Couple of motors
Some arrangement to blow my ballast tank
AND
So what else please

Please if you use abbreviations tell me what they mean like ESC??
I have a Sheerline Mk7 U boat
Thanks Fred



Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: merriman on March 31, 2014, 07:36:35 PM
Your very, very basic question suggests you are not ready for r/c submarine type vehicles.


Do an r/c vehicle that is easier first; work your way up to the hard stuff: Crawl, Walk, then ... and only then ... Run!


R/c submarining, within the broad category of r/c vehicles, is RUNNING!


Assemble, first, a simple r/c car; then maybe a simple boat; then a more complicated boat. Do those simple things first. By that time you know what goes where, and what does what. Only after all that, should you even consider doing an r/c submarine.


You ain't ready yet.


David
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: essex2visuvesi on March 31, 2014, 07:49:21 PM
Your very, very basic question suggests you are not ready for r/c submarine type vehicles.


Do an r/c vehicle that is easier first; work your way up to the hard stuff: Crawl, Walk, then ... and only then ... Run!


R/c submarining, within the broad category of r/c vehicles, is RUNNING!


Assemble, first, a simple r/c car; then maybe a simple boat; then a more complicated boat. Do those simple things first. By that time you know what goes where, and what does what. Only after all that, should you even consider doing an r/c submarine.


You ain't ready yet.


David


Seconded, I started building a sub and soon realised I was out of my depth (pun intended) even tho I have been building RC models for many years.


This book while quite old is a good place to start.
http://www.amazon.com/Model-Submarine-Technology-Norbert-Bruggen/dp/1900371049
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 07:57:51 PM
Your very, very basic question suggests you are not ready for r/c submarine type vehicles.


Do an r/c vehicle that is easier first; work your way up to the hard stuff: Crawl, Walk, then ... and only then ... Run!


R/c submarining, within the broad category of r/c vehicles, is RUNNING!


Assemble, first, a simple r/c car; then maybe a simple boat; then a more complicated boat. Do those simple things first. By that time you know what goes where, and what does what. Only after all that, should you even consider doing an r/c submarine.


You ain't ready yet.


David
Please do not patronise me
I have built a Trawler, a Mk 2A U boat but never got to fit the electronics an Imara tug.  and virtually scratch built the Mk7.  Built the dive system to my design and it works.  I need to populate the WTC which I have constructed.  So please....If you have nothing constructive to say say nowt.
Why was my question very very basic smart 'bottom'?
And I have the book you mention Essex2 - thankyou!
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: tattooed on March 31, 2014, 08:09:47 PM
send rich (u-33 on the forum ) a pm and he'll be able to point you in the right direction a very helpful man is rich
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 08:33:23 PM
Thanks 'tattoed'
Fred
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: AL 1 on March 31, 2014, 08:35:12 PM
how can you scratch build a sheerline type 7 ?
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Subculture on March 31, 2014, 08:46:59 PM
Take a big sledge hammer, smash it to pieces, then glue it all back together again.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 08:56:36 PM
OK all I was given was the hull. I built what I have to date from that.
 I guess it doesn't qualify as scratch built.
Yea gods you are a sanctimonious mob.
OK so I'm not the be all to RC submarining.  But I didn't think  I'd wouldn't get a verbal mauling for asking a question.
I am sorry I asked.  I shall leave tail between my legs and seek advice else where.
I did 24 years in the RN as a diesel submariner.  We were told from the start if you don't know ask.  I know that means diddley squat here but...
Live long and prosper bon chance.
Fred
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 09:00:53 PM
Take a big sledge hammer, smash it to pieces, then glue it all back together again.
Jest you may but I have almost done that cos the two hull halves were so badly warped it took me the best part of a flaming long time some very strong magnets some bulkheads etc  to get it sorted. :-))
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: essex2visuvesi on March 31, 2014, 09:02:02 PM
Please do not patronise me
I have built a Trawler, a Mk 2A U boat but never got to fit the electronics an Imara tug.  and virtually scratch built the Mk7.  Built the dive system to my design and it works.  I need to populate the WTC which I have constructed.  So please....If you have nothing constructive to say say nowt.
Why was my question very very basic smart 'bottom'?
And I have the book you mention Essex2 - thankyou!


I don't think it was Merriman's intention to be patronising, nor mine, we were just trying to give you the benefit of our experience.  If I came across wrong then I apologise.
From the questions you asked you gave the impression that you were quite new to RC and that you would struggle building a sub, possibly spending a lot of cash and then giving up.
As one of the others said, have a word with U33 he is pretty clued up when it comes to subs and helped me enormously with mine (and had I listened to him in the first place I would have saved myself a lot of time and money)
There are several sub builders on here that have a wealth of experience to share and will do freely
We are a nice bunch here and will do our best to help where we can.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 09:14:58 PM
Thankyou !
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Subculture on March 31, 2014, 09:45:41 PM
Okay.

At a minimum assuming you want full house control of all control surfaces, you will require the following.

Four standard sized servos.
One ESC (electronic speed controller) I recommend 20A continuous current rating or higher.
A decent receiver with 6 channels or more.
A BEC (battery eliminator circuit) to power the radio equipment. This is often built into the ESC, but some are better than others, and with four servos hooked up, you may want a separate unit, especially if you're running a system voltage above 8 or 9 volts.

You may need some form of switcher for the ballast system, but that does depend greatly on the type of system you have built. The standard Sheerline system uses nothing more exotic than a servo and microswitch.

Motors are subject to performance requirments, prop size, pitch etc. However I would aim for a shaft speed of about 3500-4500RPM.

A good sized battery pack. System voltage is upto you, but nothing less than 6 volts, and most model submariners with boats that size run 12 volt systems.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: AL 1 on March 31, 2014, 09:46:53 PM
if its a sheerline type 7 talk to chris at sheerline  01493754007
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 09:47:24 PM
Thanks Subculture help at last thanks
Fred
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 09:49:26 PM
if its a sheerline type 7 talk to chris at sheerline  01493754007
Spoke to him some time ago.  He has his own dive unit he will sell me.  But I want to build my own thanks.
Fred
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: RMH on March 31, 2014, 09:50:49 PM
I think you will also need 40Mhz radio, apparently 2.4Ghz don't work in subs too well
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Subculture on March 31, 2014, 09:55:17 PM
Sadly 2.4ghz doesn't work at all. Must be 40mhz or 27mhz. The latter is getting a bit long in the tooth these days, and 40mhz gives you a wider frequency selection.

New 40mhz sets are getting almost impossible to find. Secondhand offers good value though.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on March 31, 2014, 10:02:40 PM
Might have a 40Mhz radio. 
Thanks all good stuff.
Fred
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: essex2visuvesi on March 31, 2014, 10:28:27 PM
Failing that I have a couple of 40MHz Hitec Lazer 6 transmitters, I'm sure I could pass one your way :)
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Subculture on April 01, 2014, 10:21:44 AM
I wonder how many keyboard warriors on here would be as brave with the insults if meeting face to face?

Dave's direct style might not be every ones cup of tea, but he's done far more than anyone else to write and show what this hobby is about, at least in the English language.

In addition, I didn't see much help from modellers on this side of the puddle, and there are plenty of experienced hands looking in on this forum, but keeping quiet in shadows.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Circlip on April 01, 2014, 10:57:06 AM
No excuse for pig ignorance. Keyboard makes no difference to my soft reply. Would be a lot more vehement in person, can't be censored.
 
  Regards   Ian
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: SwedishProjectBuilder on April 01, 2014, 11:35:34 AM
Mr Gearing......they were fine as originally designed by Kockhum's of Malmo.............
Kockums*, and today called Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems. And soon to be called nothing at all, due to a big argue between Thyssen Krupp and the swedish "government" (Institution of defense). Which has resolved into SAAB Group hiring lots of people from Kockums and are in the making of planing to build new submarines, A-26.
Kockums actually got the misson from Australia to design the new Collins type, so I suppose the "bad success" with the Collins-class could not have been only due to bad design.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Klunk on April 01, 2014, 02:56:43 PM
I wonder how many keyboard warriors on here would be as brave with the insults if meeting face to face?

Dave's direct style might not be every ones cup of tea, but he's done far more than anyone else to write and show what this hobby is about, at least in the English language.

In addition, I didn't see much help from modellers on this side of the puddle, and there are plenty of experienced hands looking in on this forum, but keeping quiet in shadows.


Andy,  when I started in subs 6 years ago,  one if tge first sites I found was the  AMS  site.  With links to subcommittee  then engrossed themselves Norbert bruggen.  Anyone seriously wishing to do model subs would have found these easily.  From there you could deduce  what electrics would be needed. From there asking on forums the right questions ie what  would  people recommend ie esc  and levellers  would have come up with suppliers. This is how I started  then met you at the dive ins.  The info is there and easily accessible on virtually all the pages.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: salmon on April 02, 2014, 12:38:31 AM
Please do not patronise me
I have built a Trawler, a Mk 2A U boat but never got to fit the electronics an Imara tug.  and virtually scratch built the Mk7.  Built the dive system to my design and it works.  I need to populate the WTC which I have constructed.  So please....If you have nothing constructive to say say nowt.
Why was my question very very basic smart 'bottom'?
And I have the book you mention Essex2 - thankyou!
I am reading this thread with interest. Andy and David are some big names in the R/C Submarine industry and have a history of incredible running machines and creative contributions to industry. Whether they rub you wrong or not, rather than fight or get offended from a frank remark, humble yourself to learn. You can not take what they say wrong when you ask what ESC means. An ESC (Electronic Speed Controller) is a device used in RC cars, boats, planes, and subs.
You snap back offended and I guarantee, the help will dry up.
So what do you really need to know? How to populate your WTC? That is a heck of a question, how can someone tell you what you need? What type of ballast system are you going for? What is the dimensions of the tube you are working with? How much do you need to displace to make your sub buoyant (to waterline) or sink? The fact that you have a WTC (Water Tight Container or Cylinder) made, and all you are looking for is just general list, then you need (as you mentioned) servos, battery (if going LiPo [you look that up] Batteries - you may want a failsafe also and a low power protection), leveler (some use it some do not), pumps or gas system, receiver, Electronic Speed Controller, motors. Depending on how much you want it to do a 4 - 6 channel receiver is what you can use (more the better - especially if you add more functions). Do not use 2.4 GHz as it will not work below the surface.
When I built my first sub (currently on my 4th sub, plus a couple repaired to working), David told me the same advice as he told you, "crawl, walk, run" I took it to heart and learned along the way. I have not met better people, but I had to prove I was serious.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Kazzer on April 02, 2014, 02:05:09 AM
Spoke to him some time ago.  He has his own dive unit he will sell me.  But I want to build my own thanks.
Fred

You want to build your own WTC?  Why? Are you totally insane?  I have spent many hours looking at the costings of building one off WTCs and 'Experimenter Kit' ideas, and the time and effort involved priced at $6 an hour far exceeds the price of buying a ready build professional unit.

Don't waste your time on this. Build a model by all means but power it with a Sub-driver.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Albion on April 02, 2014, 08:43:43 AM
Even buying a purpose built dive unit will not mean you are in the water in 10 minutes, there is still a lot of work to do, but you have short cut some of the issues and perils.


If you browse the various RC forums related to Submarines you will find numerous posts from souls professing to be experts in this and that and how they know what they are doing, but very few actually deliver something that works, so historically David is more likely to be right than wrong. If you do produce the goods then it is major achievement.


So go ahead, I'm sure you will get support as you progress, but you have been warned of the dangers ahead  :-))


PS My early attempts at building a working ballast system are now in a box which is mentally labelled as, "I will make these work one day."



Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Rodgearing on April 02, 2014, 09:11:10 AM
Even buying a purpose built dive unit will not mean you are in the water in 10 minutes, there is still a lot of work to do, but you have short cut some of the issues and perils.


If you browse the various RC forums related to Submarines you will find numerous posts from souls professing to be experts in this and that and how they know what they are doing, but very few actually deliver something that works, so historically David is more likely to be right than wrong. If you do produce the goods then it is major achievement.


So go ahead, I'm sure you will get support as you progress, but you have been warned of the dangers ahead  :-))


PS My early attempts at building a working ballast system are now in a box which is mentally labelled as, "I will make these work one day."
Agreed but I never professed to being an expert that's why I asked but when you  get  non constructive you wonder why you bother.
Any way leave it there please comments, those that are constructive have been taken on board the rest have been ditched.
Bon chance till the next time
Fred
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: U-33 on April 02, 2014, 02:46:41 PM
Dear, oh dear...I do not believe what I am reading. What the heck is wrong with you lot? Someone asks for advice, someone offers advice, and the whole post then just disintegrates into a barrage of insults, bordering on abuse.


Why can't you guys just leave things alone? If you don't have anything constructive to offer to the post, then keep your fingers away from your keyboard.


The advice being offered here is practically gold plated, and offered by three people who probably know more about model submarines than the rest of the so called 'keyboard warriors' who insist on stirring things up.


This is exactly why I have become disillusioned recently with the hobby, after forty years or so of building model subs. Trust me, you will learn more in ten minutes talking to any of those three guys than you will ever learn by trying (and probably failing) to do things on your own. I spent years listening and learning from the two gurus of model submarines...Bernie Wood and Ron Perrott, and I can still learn from their vast store of knowledge.

Posts like this are the easy way to put newcomers to the hobby off completely...as I said earlier, if you don't know anything then don't say anything. Read, inwardly digest the information, and learn from it.



Rich
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: vnkiwi on April 02, 2014, 07:05:17 PM
Well said Rich,
my sentiments exactly
cheers
vnkiwi  :-))
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Martin [Admin] on April 02, 2014, 07:11:10 PM
 
Topic cleaned up. Keep it civil and polite gentlemen, constructive comments ONLY!
..... no one wants to get banned.

 Martin   
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Kazzer on April 02, 2014, 10:03:07 PM
That would be too easy, I think we should let them stay here and suffer....... :-)

THAT'S MEAN AND SADISTIC!   

Merriman has work to do, he shouldn't be bumming around on these forums. Did you get those Surcouf hulls?

GET BACK IN YOUR CAVE MERRIMAN!  Orders need to be completed.
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: salmon on April 02, 2014, 10:06:10 PM
No sir I have not gotten the hulls yet or the WFly 8ch radio.

Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Kazzer on April 02, 2014, 10:13:16 PM
No sir I have not gotten the hulls yet or the WFly 8ch radio.


Ha! Ha!  Ha!     That's GREAT!         You'll just have to S U F F E R!!!!!  Ha! Ha! Ha!
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Martin [Admin] on April 02, 2014, 10:27:27 PM
Kazzer ( Caswell plating) banned.
 Anyone else?   >:-o
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: merriman on April 02, 2014, 10:38:25 PM
Kazzer ( Caswell plating) banned.
 Anyone else?   >:-o


Me too. Use the sharp knife, Mr. Moderator, if you will.


Andy ... you have the conn, sir.


M
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: derekwarner on April 02, 2014, 11:11:22 PM
Sorry.... :embarrassed:...I got it wrong.......it wasn't Commander Merriman of the RAN [Oberon Class submarines]......it was Commander Merrifield........ Derek
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: U-33 on April 03, 2014, 09:11:57 AM
Martin...far be from me to criticise, but I think you've banned the wrong man.


Rich
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Netleyned on April 03, 2014, 09:31:19 AM
Sorry.... :embarrassed:...I got it wrong.......it wasn't Commander Merriman of the RAN [Oberon Class submarines]......it was Commander Merrifield........ Derek

Uncle Albert :D :D

Ned
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: derekwarner on April 03, 2014, 09:58:07 AM
Ned....you have lost me  >>:-(.......the only Uncle Albert that come to mind were in lyric's sung by the Beatles ??????????????????????????? Derek
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Subculture on April 03, 2014, 10:13:10 AM
He's referring to 'Uncle Albert' from the sitcom Only Fools and Horses. The character was played by the late Buster Merryfield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Albert
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: U-33 on April 03, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
''when I was in the war...''
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: essex2visuvesi on April 03, 2014, 11:56:10 AM
He's referring to 'Uncle Albert' from the sitcom Only Fools and Horses. The character was played by the late Buster Merryfield.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Albert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Albert)


For our colonial friends who do not have access to quality television  :-))
(http://www.putneysw15.com/info/images/unclealbert.gif)
Uncle Albert
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Netleyned on April 03, 2014, 12:29:00 PM
Ah Well


Seems to have lightened the tone of the thread a little  :-)) :-)) :-)) %) %) %)




Ned
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: derekwarner on April 03, 2014, 12:35:48 PM
I must agree Ned....I do remember Steptoe senior [Wilfred Bramble?] in the Beatles film Help....when he suggested that particularly good looking young woman with large breasts ...."I bet she is a good swimmer" {-)   {-)

 ;)...but have never seen 'Uncle Albert' from the sitcom Only Fools and Horses .....Derek
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: Netleyned on April 03, 2014, 01:15:19 PM
He had a never ending supply of sea stories from WWII.
He was torpedoed, bombed, blown overboard and washed ashore or rescued.
Normally only Albert and the Captain survived.


He came to live with Del Boy after Grandad died.


Ned
Title: Re: Build my own dive unit
Post by: tigertiger on April 04, 2014, 02:01:36 AM

Courtesy of Wikiquotes:

Albert: Do you know I was torpedoed five times?
Rodney: Yeah?
Albert: Yeah. Do you know what they called me?
Rodney: Jonah?
Albert: No, they didn't call me "Jonah"... Not many of them. They used to call me "Boomerang Trotter" cause I always came back
----------------------------------
Rodney: (about Albert) I've said it before, I'll say it again: that man's a right Jonah. I reckon that when he boarded his last ship, the crew shot an albatross for luck.