Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Paul Swainson on April 30, 2014, 12:24:31 pm

Title: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 30, 2014, 12:24:31 pm: I am hoping that someone may be able to help me in my scratch build of HMS Illustrious 87 from the period 1939 to 1942. I have the full Naval plans of the ship and I am in the build of the Island A to D decks.
The problem I have at the moment is the mounting of the carley floats on the side of the island from B deck down to the flight deck.
I have the sections plans for section 92 through to 69 which covers the area of the carley floats, also the side profile. I am not able to see clearly how they were mounted as there are two platforms shown but one is not on the section 69 and not on 92. There is also a walk way above the mounting platform which has a grating and stanchions to give access to the flight signal lamps positioned along this walk way which is above the carley mounts. There is also retaining reels for each float position below the mounting deck on all the decks shown, but not sure how they are reached and how they retain the floats.
My question is can any one help with old photos of the area of the ship as all the photos I have are distance shots which are too grainy to blow up to see detail. Or has any one seen or served on this hip during the period I am building (a long shot I know)
My build photos are on my flicker page which is my URL.
Thanks in advance of any help you can give or places to check.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: raflaunches on April 30, 2014, 10:54:52 pm: Hi Paul

I'll have a look in my books for any close ups of the Carley floats on Illustrious. Let you know by Saturday.

Nick
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: raflaunches on May 03, 2014, 02:07:02 pm: Hi Paul

Found some pictures for you, not of Illustrious but of her sistership Victorious during 1942, the images below are from Anatomy of the Ship book 'The Aircraft Carrier Victorious'.

(http://i59.tinypic.com/o074es.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2qa1j6g.jpg)

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2zi8tqc.jpg)

(http://i59.tinypic.com/256d5ht.jpg)

Hope they help.

Nick
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 04, 2014, 12:12:26 am: Thanks Nick, I have the same information but had difficulty in trying to understand how they were held in place and launched so that I could build the same on the model. I have found out how the Carley floats are mounted and launched. The small deck that juts out from B deck has 7 rods protruding out which holds the main support cable which holds the Carley floats in place. As you will see from the small attachment this cable make a upside down Y which hold and runs to the back of the Carley floats and is retained under the small deck in reels, which must be braked. The next deck down is were the crew go to release the floats. As they are lowered the upside down Y hold the Carly float in position until they reach the sea and are then released.
The set up for Victorious is nearly the same but the 1st photo shows the Victorious after her second refit where she has installed a top and lower layer of AA 23 x 2 x 20mm Oerlikon . Lusty did not have them in 1939 to 1942.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: hmsantrim on May 04, 2014, 11:35:24 am: Hi paul.
Some photos of my lusty plans. you can click on them to enlarge
frank

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj138/farticus1/PICT0178_zpse4b8c9f9.jpg)

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj138/farticus1/PICT0178_zpse4b8c9f9.jpg)

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj138/farticus1/PICT0177_zps8044abb9.jpg)

(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj138/farticus1/PICT0176_zpsf3c7a49c.jpg)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 04, 2014, 04:01:36 pm: Thanks Frank, I have a digital copy of the same plans (1/16 to 1 foot) but my copy has too many dark areas to work with so have the Naval plans (1/8 to 1 foot) which is the 1/96 scale.
Did you build the ship from your plans or have you not started yet.
Build photos are on my URL.

Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: hmsantrim on May 04, 2014, 07:32:55 pm: Hi paul.
had a hull for the Lusty some years ago and had it stored in a family members garage. Had to move it on as cousin sold house after last of children left home and SWMBO ordered downsize from a bungalow to a flat. Just kept a copy of the plans for my self for possible future use. They are the original shipyard plans over 70 years old which is why they have a few black lines on them. I see you sourced your self a nice clean copy. Ever thought about getting the plastic kit as a build assist item.
rgds frank.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: hmsantrim on May 05, 2014, 06:35:35 am: Hi Paul.
another version to look at.
frank
http://www.steelnavy.com/HellerIllustriousLC.htm (http://www.steelnavy.com/HellerIllustriousLC.htm)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 05, 2014, 11:58:28 am: The problem with plastic kits is the period of the ship. I want to build her as she was from the drawing table to the finished ship. So that means that the ship plans need to be followed. She had her first refit in 1942 then again 1943-1944 and then again in the late 40's by which time she had changed a lot. I like the clean lines of the original build and its hard to find clear photos of this and to find others who have built the same ship during the same period. Some have mixed the build including and excluding components that make the difference. The mast for one gives the game away and then all the extra bridge wings with 20mm guns etc. The rear slopping flight deck, need I go on.
But thanks for your help as I was never in the RN but a foot soldier, but did spend my young years station in Malta GC during the 60's I got a love for the warships and have built one or two. The Last being HMS Solebay, which I used to see all the time when I was in Malta GC. So sometimes when I see the plans and then try to put them into a 3d picture and make that come to life I need to know who it worked and then I can make sense of what I am trying to build.
The Hull I have is actual that of the last ship in the Illustrious class, HMS Indomitable (92) the two ships were built along side each other and her hull was the best shaped and must efficient to reduce drag in the water. But her top lines were altered to suit a slightly. Here is a ling to the builders Yard. http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive/browser.asp?subject=&title=&subtitle=&searchtype=1&deepcriteria=illustrious (http://www.dockmuseum.org.uk/archive/browser.asp?subject=&title=&subtitle=&searchtype=1&deepcriteria=illustrious)
Hope you like.
Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: hmsantrim on May 06, 2014, 01:33:06 pm: Hi Paul.
so you are modelling her for the home waters /mediterranean theatre then.
frank.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 06, 2014, 01:50:05 pm: That is correct Frank, Lusty is going to be built as she was upto the day she left Malta for Alexander and theen to the USA for repairs. The only diference will be she will have Seafires and swordfish as her aircraft.

Paul.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: hmsantrim on May 06, 2014, 02:24:59 pm: HiPaul.
just wondered about the air group as if she was going to modelled for far east the roundels would have to be changed to blue.
frank
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 15, 2014, 11:28:08 pm: Hi Frank, here is the link to all my build photos for lusty. I will update the photos has I do each bit so you and other members can see how she is coming along. https://www.flickr.com/photos/92998762@N02/sets/72157640833731444/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/92998762@N02/sets/72157640833731444/)
Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 14, 2014, 07:02:19 pm: Have now come to the conclusion that I will need to build my own hull of Illustrious and am looking for some help in two area, so if any one can help please shout.
1st. Require a copy of the ship lines, in 1/96 scale or any other scale to allow me to create my own hull, which when built will be passed to a company to make the correct size and shape hull.
2nd. Any books or reference points on the net to show and advise new hull builders how to go about building a hull. I have read some information and have spoken, but would like some more reference lit to read. No such think as too much information.
Thanks for any help anyone can give in advance.
Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Shipmate60 on August 14, 2014, 07:39:49 pm: Don't Deans do a 1/96 invincible hull in Mouldeans?

Bob
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 14, 2014, 08:15:36 pm: Yes Bob they do and I have one, but it is not really the correct hull. The height is not correct, the length is not the same and the beam is far too flexing. The front spoons are too far back, which pushes the island structure back when the island is further forward. With the hull height after squaring off the deck are all wrong the W/L is wrong. So I feel that I need to make my own hull and then with Deans help they will use it to make me a hull to suit the actual HMS Illustrious and they my keep the hull so they can make more for other customers.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on August 14, 2014, 08:17:36 pm: Quote from: paul swainson on August 14, 2014, 07:02:19 pm
Have now come to the conclusion that I will need to build my own hull of Illustrious and am looking for some help in two area, so if any one can help please shout.
1st. Require a copy of the ship lines, in 1/96 scale or any other scale to allow me to create my own hull, which when built will be passed to a company to make the correct size and shape hull.
2nd. Any books or reference points on the net to show and advise new hull builders how to go about building a hull. I have read some information and have spoken, but would like some more reference lit to read. No such think as too much information.
Thanks for any help anyone can give in advance.
Paul

Hi Paul, After all the work you've done, what's up with the hull you have, the last I saw you had all the frames in. {:-{

Joe.

Ok you have already answered :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 14, 2014, 10:21:11 pm: Yes Joe,
The hull was squared off today to finish off the hull frames ready for the drilling of the prop shafts. I then found that the hull was not high enough, so tried to mark out the hanger deck upper and lower gallery decks, which would not fit with the correct space between each. I could rub the hull sides down to remove the opening and the port holes that are marked in the gel coat, and then redo the W/L lower down and then using those marking mark out the decks, but that will make the quarter deck that I cut out for the access for the rudder tiller too high and not aligned up with the other deck openings on the same level. So before I do any more work on the hull to that end I am looking into making my own hull from the ship lines and than get my own made. If not I will continue with what I have and make do.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on August 14, 2014, 11:13:05 pm: That's a shame mate, a bit of a set back but I'm sure you will overcome it, good luck with it anyway. :-))

Joe.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: rsm on August 15, 2014, 09:02:17 am: You can get a set of plans from Fleetscale for their Victorious in 1/128th scale.

http://www.fleetscale.com/store/hms-victorious-ww2-aircraft-carrier/503-1-128th-hms-victorious-drawings-plans.html
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 15, 2014, 12:01:30 pm: Its not totally lost but I do want to build a good model. So I am now costing up the items I will need to do my own hull and see if the work is possible. The plans are held and can be purchased from the NMM for the ship lines in 1/96 and are as 1937 when she was laid down. I am off to price a Melamine board 9ft long and 18 inch wide to allow me to build the hull on. Also need to find a supplier of 1/8 ply to cut the bulkheads out of. Also need a T square ruler 24 inches long, and they all seem to be sold from the USA, but Amazon seem to do them but will go to my local art shop in Ayr on Monday and see what they have. So thinks will be added up and then a decision will be made.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 15, 2014, 12:04:27 pm: Thanks for the info rsm, I spoke with Fleetscale today and they do the plans but would not recommend them as they are draw and may not recreate what I am looking for so the NMM will be getting an order if I go ahead with the build. But thanks for the pointer. It did supply one nice bit of info in that they do 1/96 scale parts for this ship.
Paul :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on September 22, 2014, 12:42:34 pm: Ship lines now on CAD file and have had them printed out for each one of the hull ribs all I have to do now is get my building board built and make the frame for them to fit on. Have to read up on how the bow and stern are made and fitted to the keel. Any pointers anyone? Would like some tips in this area, as the bow is very thin compared to the beam of the keel which will be about 6 mm thick or more.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on October 14, 2014, 09:00:12 pm: Being new to model boat building my self I have seen a few different ways including making the bow and stern blocks from balsa or similar so that you do not have the problem of bending planks around tight curves and forming complex angles, while the other is very traditonal in creating a keel former with stem and stern posts like you would if building a wooden ship, i.e, HMS Victory.

Some kits such as those Machette partwoorks have plastic stem and sterns.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on December 14, 2014, 05:03:17 pm: Work started on the bulkheads for the keel and they have come out and fit very nicely, looking forward to fitting the rest. (dry fit)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on December 14, 2014, 05:14:20 pm: There is something so great about seeing the first few frames being set up. I wish you a trouble free and enjoyable build Paul and will follow your progress to learn from. I bet your workshop has that lovely smell of fresh birch!

Just a quick technical question. Do you allow for the thickness of planking when printing your frame drawings or accept the planking is not that thick so will not affect the scale beam too much?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on December 14, 2014, 07:02:58 pm: Hi Paul, your doing a great job there, it must seem like a mammoth task after starting with a moulded hull, but I sure you'll do it, at least it gives you plenty to think about. %% :-))
Joe.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on December 14, 2014, 08:20:00 pm: Yes I have decided on 2.5 mm thick wood so the drawing have been down sized to account for the thickness of the planking. To ensure I leave enough space so that the planks will be flush with the keel I made a small section of the keel and reduced it by 2.5 mm and then cut the keel insert so that each bulkhead will sit correct hight off the keel. The problem will come when I have to do bulkhead 20 as this section runs through the centre of the prop shaft. Still working out how to do that.

The other work on the fibre hull will be HMS Indomitable, Illustrious sister ship which as you know was built along side her. So I am going to have two Aircraft carriers on the lake and all working I hope. :-)) [size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on December 15, 2014, 12:53:22 am: Hi Paul,

I'm just tagging along - hopefully learning along the way - good luck with your build(s) :-))

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on December 15, 2014, 04:03:19 am: Afternoon Paul....are all of those bulkhead frames laser cut?......you know with the black/burnt edges?

Looking good :-)) are you going to lay & secure side supports for the bulkheads to that 9' base board?.......

Keep us posted ............... Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on December 15, 2014, 09:09:48 am: Thanks Paul. I appreciate it sounds like a question with an obvious answer, but different people have their own way of doing things. I was thinking that 2.5mm planking was quite thick before remembering that your hull will be quite large!

As regards section 20, I assume the prop shaft hole will be almost as large as the available wood at that point? If so, could you reinforce that area with some steel sheet tacked in place with small screws or 12mm wire nails?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on December 15, 2014, 06:39:13 pm: Yes are correct the thickness of that section is 8 mm but the keel in this area has been increase with 6 mm each side from the section 19 back to 21 to allow the rudder shaft and prop shaft to be full enclosed in the wood frame. Once the prop shaft tunnel has been drilled out with a pilot hole (2 mm) and ready to be drilled out to 5 mm (the thickness of the outer shaft (the inner being 4 mm)) I will then drill through the the middle of this wide section to the side of 5 mm and square off the create a square hole 5 x 5 and then slot this section in until i get the correct hight and then bond in place, then drill through again with the 5 mm drill to allow the prop shaft through. Then once the planking is in place and the filler and skin is fitted it should be fine.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on December 15, 2014, 06:46:59 pm: Hi Derek.

Yes the frame have been laser for the main out line and have markings to show the centre line and the hanger deck. As the hull is 7 ft 8" long and 13" hight and 12.9" wide that's a large boat to tray and make bulkheads that will fit and work with out lots of correcting work. The area is far to big to try and make it all fit just so. So all the work went into the bulkhead drawings, as be the two attached photos. Once these had been put on to a CAD file I arranged for them to be printed onto thick card and then cut each one out and built a cardboard hull. Corrected the errors and then arrange for a firm to cut them for me.

The keel is held in place on the building board by retaining blocks placed in between the position of each bulkhead.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on December 15, 2014, 08:08:04 pm: You have to make a few concessions to build ability otherwise the liklihood of a critical failure during construction rises. Do you work with CAD or did you learn for your interest? I wish I had had better tutors when I was at college as I regularly see jobs that could be done via CAD.

If I may be a cheeky mommet, How much did the cutting cost?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on December 15, 2014, 08:59:56 pm: I have never worked with CAD, but did play around with Coral Draw. I found a company that could do art work and large photo copying. I got them to photo copy the basic ship lines, then using the internet (U tube) I played around and found out how to swap over the sides. and make two drawings. Got them printed out and went over the drawings with a 0.1 marker pen. Recopied the ship lines and then used the auto facility on a CAD program to make a DWR drawing.

Then shopped around to find a company that did laser cutting local to me. Arranged a visit and after some negotiations he cleaned up my CAD drawing reduced it to reflect the correct size to account for wood thickness and then I choose the wood I wanted for the frames after a few meetings to under stand how ship lines worked we started the cut process one at a time at first to ensure it worked. He then worked out how to lay out the patterns to reduce wood waist and away we went.

The price is dependant on the wood cost and the type of wood required and the degree of work required. They could also cut the mounting grooves and also removed the inside sections of the frame but that would require a lot more work on the CAD side, then I had knowledge of. So I will do that work in house and keep some of the work for me to do. Also I can add little extras to the frames such as outer deck support beams as I go along and other ideas I have to assist the build process.

The guy I use is based in Glasgow and I was his first but I am sure he would like to do more. If you have never worked with CAD but have a PDF file of the ship lines, he will do the CAD work and then send you the files and if happy will then cut as you require, and price will be given along with carriage. (Point I would recommend use a courier for low weight items packed in large box/packages its cheaper.)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on December 16, 2014, 10:42:20 am: Thanks for that Paul. So the 'Auto' facility on Coral takes a scan and turns it into a Drawing file which can then be manipualted with the drawing program? Sorry to be slow, but what you describe sounds tantalising. I have a friend who might be able to do a few bits for me.

Thanks again, I cannot wait to see more pictures of your build!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on December 17, 2014, 02:42:32 pm: Section 25 to 12 now on the keel (dry fit only). Stern section still to have frame 20 installed. Will stop now till after Christmas As I need to look at the stern section, the frame seems weak and need to see if there is anything I can do. Merry Christmas every one.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on December 17, 2014, 10:12:14 pm: It does look quite frail along the stern section of the keel. I take my hat off to you for having built it the right way up as there is alot going on in that last twelve inches to prvent sagging. It is starting to look shipshape.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on January 08, 2015, 09:43:34 pm: I have a small problem which I am not sure how to resolve. Could any one help with possible ideas?
In the first picture and the second you will see the bow bulk heads matched with the ship lines, and as you see the bow plans look like the bow is very small and pointed with no reference to the flight deck over hang over the hull. Picture 3 shows the same bulk heads position on the Flight deck plans in the position they are meant to be.

Picture 4 & 5 show the GRP hull bow with the bulk head lines roughly drawn. The area on the last photo which is in black I do not know how this is going to be planked! There is nothing there to attach the planks to and nothing for the actual end of the flight deck. As I lay the planks up to the bow section I am going to be left with fresh air! Am I wrong or am I looking at this the wrong way?

Any help would be very helpful.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on January 08, 2015, 10:23:40 pm: Hi Paul......you certainly have a few quanderies :o

1. Some builders would consider a sizeable block of balsa ...say 3" x 3" x 10" & shape the bow profile FWD of frames A, B & F_p
2. This would then provide a surface to plank to.......

However from your image 3728 [incorrectly proportioned glass hull] indicates the flight deck is near parallel in beam from FWD of frame A >>>>>>>> back to frame B3
I am also assuming from frame A to F_p is the chain locker.......and F_p back to frame 1 1/2 is the forepeak water ballast hold

3. The support for the concave planking up to flight deck level could also be achieved with a pair of mirror reverse curved blocks shaped again from 3" x 3" laminated balsa blocks
4. You may also consider a smaller balsa block laid on the axis of the existing keel plate from A >>>>>>>> back to frame B3 to inset the lower planking into.......

Keep us posted.............Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: hmsantrim on January 09, 2015, 04:54:07 am: Hi paul.
there was a scratch build of the WWII ark royal on here @ 2-3 years ago, don`t know if any of the data for that still exists on the forum you may have got some tips from the build.

frank
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on January 09, 2015, 07:41:13 pm: Hi Frank,

Yes I found it, and read but the build was not completed and was sold on to some one who has not continued with the block. But thanks anyway for the tip.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on January 09, 2015, 07:44:31 pm: Hi Derek,

Thanks for that, so food for thought and some ideas to look at. Once I have finished off the cut outs for the support beams which sit on the top of the bulk heads I will refit them to the keel and see how the bow looks and take stock at that time. Will post photos with all the frames in place.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on January 16, 2015, 02:49:02 pm: Now have the basic frame up with just four bulk heads to install. One at the stern which has to be drilled into the keel so the prop shaft can be drilled through and matched up with the other bulk heads. The other three are at the bow which are items A, B and forward point. There will need a double groove cut made to fit them in place. I can now remove the frame from its holding points and turn keel up. The planking wood is now ready to be delivered so now well on my way. Hope you like the build so far.

Next question, how best to chamfer the leading edges from 12 to the bow and the opposite from 13 to the stern. Will need to find out how best to measure the angle and how much to take off. Also need to but some balsa wood strips on the edges of the bulk heads to add a larger area for the planking to bond too.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on January 16, 2015, 08:32:54 pm: The ply should be thick enough to support glued koins especially onece you start bevelling the edges which will actually increase the surface area for gluing planks to.

From what I recall having read and seen, bevelling is either a case of working by eye and stopping regularly to dry fit planks, or you can tape a plank in place and see what the triangle of air between the frame edge and the plank looks like and marking this on the far edge of the frame so you can build up a line to cut/sand the frame edge to. Remember, the angle will change as you follow the frame edge around the bilges, and this counts for every frame.

I watched this a few months back on Youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ubucIk8WY
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on January 29, 2015, 05:56:40 pm: Some more work done on the hull. Made the bilge keel from the ships drawing. Started with a trace of the outline of the keel. Then transpose this trace to a card board cut out noting the bulkhead positions. With a nice bit of wood 4 mm thick copied the ship bulk heads from the drawing to the wood from bulk heads 9 through to 15. Then transposed the card board outline to the the board matching up the bulkhead line markings. On the hull side line drawing added a 2.4 extra width to allow for the planking wood thickness. Also made 5 mm extensions protruding from the hull side of the keels to fit into the slots made at the correct position in each of the bulkheads 9 to 15. The positions of these slots was indicated in the ship lines as to the angle and position on the hull. See picture 203 and 205 showing the diagonal lines from the ship centre line above the hanger deck line.

Here is the final result of all that work after a little bit of sand paper work and a buff. This is again a dry fit, will now work out what areas to remove from the bulkheads to allow for the small outer decks to be fitted and the overall level for the mid section and the motors.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on January 29, 2015, 08:26:31 pm: I am impressed with the bilge keels and see now that it is no too much of chore making them if you have plans.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on February 09, 2015, 04:09:31 pm: The frames have now been removed and the centre sections have been cut out. I have left the hanger deck supports on each bulkhead where there is an out side deck to add the support of the decks when they get fitted. Also have fitted on bow sections 12 to FP 5 mm balsa wood sections around the edges to aid in the bevelling and giving a greater bonding area for the planks to bond too. The first group are from mid section to bow.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on February 09, 2015, 04:12:02 pm: These are the stern from 13 to 22.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on February 09, 2015, 08:38:41 pm: It looks like a chalenge to plan out where the inserts for the Lifeboats etc will be in the hull side so you can make the frames correspond. Lovely work so far.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on February 26, 2015, 04:52:44 pm: Thought I would take a break from the hull as I will need a bit of space to plank the hull, so waiting for the better weather to clear the garage of the trailer. So after finding a supplier for the gun barrels, I thought I would make a start on the two sets of gun turrets to see if I could make them my self. As you can see I am trying to make as much as possible my self with in reason.

So from the ship plans I checked and measured the dimensions of the turrets. The height was 15 mm and the circumference at the base was 43 mm and at the top 33 mm with an angle half cone of 6 mm. So went about working out the materials required to make a turret. Due to the height of 15 mm the base would have to be 1 mm and the top would be 1 mm. That left the inside gun assembly to be 13 mm high. So I cut out on card board the base and the top, then worked out the circumference required for the lower section of the turret wall and the height required was 9 mm and allowing for the half cone top of 6 mm that matched the height of 15 mm. With the card board cut outs it seem to work out but was a bit fiddle, but do able. But to make 16 of them was a bit much, but never say never.

So with the above information cut out my first turret and bonded the base and side as the first step. Then cut out the cone shape and bonded the ends to from the half cone. Then bonded that to the top of the base section. Once the unit had been truly bonded trimmed the over lap to create a nice smooth round turret. Worked out the size of the gun opening and cut way the area need.

The turret is now ready to receive the gun barrels and the movement arrangement require to allow the barrels to move up and down to an angle of 80 degrees. This was done by making a three sided square with 1.5 mm styrene. The three sides was cut 19 mm long and 13 mm high, making the two side 20.5 mm long and the back section with an inside measurement of 16 mm. Each of the barrels would be held in a 6 mm wide by 10 mm thick sold bit of styrene. To achieve this I cut a strip off a 3mm thick sheet of styrene with a width of 11 mm and cut it into sections 11 mm square. Stuck two together and marked out the centre spot and marked a 5 mm diameter circle. This was then trimmed to remove the square and ready to be placed on a drill and rounded down to a nice smooth circle 6 mm wide and 10 mm in diameter. Each had a small 1/8 hold drilled through the centre to allow for a brass rod to be passed through. Then each of these was drilled in the centre of the 6 mm wide section; a hole 3.2 mm half way down to accept the gun barrel. This would allow the gun to pivot up and down on these drums. In between each of this drums a 4 mm section 13 mm high and 12 mm long to give the middle support for the turret and strong pivot point for the barrels.

Once all this was in place this assemble was positioned in the gun turret to the correct point and then the top of the turret was bonded in place. The cut out area of the barrels was finished off with 0.3 mm styrene to clean and straighten up the gun aperture. The final base of the turret was ringed at the base to show the seating of the turret into the deck.

Hope the photos reflect the work carried out. These photos show dry fit to correct any errors
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on February 26, 2015, 06:54:42 pm: Well done Paul, well worked out by the time they are glued together and cleaned up they will do very nicely. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on February 26, 2015, 07:24:57 pm: I take my hat off to you for the geometry used to create the conical sections! I would have done it solid to hide my poor maths:O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on February 27, 2015, 05:53:21 pm: Thanks guys, the first was trial and error and hopefully as I do more they will become much better and will look the part. Once I have done one or two and primed and pained them a new photo will show what they look like.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 01, 2015, 02:50:14 pm: the first trail turret with the next one being done to a better quality of build but have come across a small problem so back to the drawing board. But can be solved. Will have to shorten the barrels as the breach section of the barrel is too long and the barrel mounting pivot is not perfect so looking for a supply of 10 mm sold styrene rod to use which will give me a much better quality of finish. But the turret assembly line is working well. 15 more to go.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on March 01, 2015, 04:14:04 pm: This is the thing I have learnt with WW2 and surrounding era ship modelling, you have multiple turrets/mountngs to build especialy when building a capital ship. So, getting the first one right as a proof of concept does save a lot of snot and tears later in the build!

The new mantlets will look much better. I hate working with tube as it is hard to keep the edges parralel and perendicular.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: dougal99 on March 01, 2015, 04:26:58 pm: For 10mm rod I have used plastic knitting needles. Saws and glues OK.

HTH
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 01, 2015, 04:33:23 pm: I would never have thought 10 mm knitting needles, I off to the wool shop thanks for the tip will try that out. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 01, 2015, 04:38:13 pm: Yes the first one was the trial an error unit. But the only real fault with it was the division plate in the which is out of alignment and cut poorly and the hight inside was a bit low. O0
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: AlexC on March 01, 2015, 11:32:51 pm: Quote from: paul swainson on March 01, 2015, 04:38:13 pm
Yes the first one was the trial an error unit. But the only real fault with it was the division plate in the which is out of alignment and cut poorly and the hight inside was a bit low. O0

Hi Paul,

The best way I have found for keeping all holes in true alignment is to assemble the outer frame and the centre division.. then drill though them as a unit.
Just be sure that the whole unit is square with the drill spindle and mark the centre accurately on one side.

Shame about the barrels being a bit too long... easily sorted though. :-))

Keep Happy.

Best regards.

Sandy. :}
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on March 02, 2015, 12:47:33 am: Paul.......I have experience with more modern [circa 50's design] Vickers twin 4.5" mountings.....essentially these and earlier versions were a single gun mount, however with twin barrels ok2

A possible solution to your alignment issue is to fabricate the barrel mantlet curved plate from one continuous tube for both barrels

As Sandy suggests, mark the OD of the mantlet tube and drill both holes in one setup......drilling the holes vertically down, then rotate the mantlet plate to achieve your desired representation of xx elevation

To further aid in visual alignment, actually mill then drill through the full diameter of the mantlet tube & spot the opposite inboard face....this can be used as a location for a plastic spike between the ID of the barrel & the inboard or opposite face of the mantlet tube

Instead of reducing the length of each barrel, could you not locate & secure each barrel further inboard within the turret? ...if you must shorten the barrels, crop from the inner ...not the outer <*<

Only other thought is that the mantlet plate outer surfaces should be represented as very dark charcoal grey....not black.....this was actually an early layer of TEFLON...however called Peradite X by Vickers and subsequently also by the RN..... Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 02, 2015, 02:59:51 pm: Hi Derek,
Read your comments with interest and I had looked at the option of moving the gun barrel set up further back by extending the length of the two side walls from 19 mm to 25.5 mm and with the mantlet curved plate drilled so that it sits on the centre line. Checked the position of the gun barrels and found that the breach section of the barrel (last section) would look too long and the recess would be too great.

I thought about putting one single 10 mm mantlet in but then decided against it as you would not be able to move each barrel on its own. As the attached photo shows this would be needed to clean the barrels, and as this was a feature I wanted to use on the display of the model to show it at work.

So I have arranged to have the barrels reduced to allow for them to fit the set up I have made. Also the scale will look correct when you picture the section of the barrel in the gun drawing.

I do not have the ability to mill so that will have to come later so I am left with drilling with my Dremel upright drill stand and the model clamp holder to work with. Also looking at the Dremel flat table top router which also will help with sanding to a flat and square surface.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on March 02, 2015, 09:52:14 pm: Morning Paul......that last image is interesting as it show junior ratings with the chimney sweep steel brushes we spoke about in another thread last week..it shows the pairs of barrels from each turret at differing elevations, however both barrels from individual turrets are at the same elevation

With respect to the Vickers 4.5" mountings ...the mantlet plate was one casting simply with one hole for each barrel

The elevation of the gun was achieved via one curved mirror reversed angular rack attached to each side of the cast steel mantlet plate [naturally in real life this mantlet plate was an arc of less than 120 degrees]....so to actually elevate the gun, DC electric motors drove the corresponding rack drive wheels...[the elevation drive also had backlash compensation to achieve and maintain positional accuracy sub seconds of a degree]

So remember there two breaches, two shell hoists, two rammers....and two barrels but all about one mantlet plate in one turret...so if the mount is elevated, both barrels retain the same angle of elevation.....

[Every mechanical component interface on 4.5" mounting was shimmed and fitted with individual tapered dowels <*<...which made refit work a logistics nightmare in tagging say 100 individual shims and their dowel sets with their location and sequence position ...yes every individual dowel had a horizontal line scribed to designate the required depth of engagement when being refitted .....

Remember.... >>:-(...30 years ago it was a criminal offence to take your BROWNIE box camera and take pictures of your work.........Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 02, 2015, 10:38:12 pm: Morning to you too Derek,

That is very useful information, I will see it I can make a single mantlet for a turret by using the centre support to support it and pivot at each end on a coper spindle. If that works then I will have both barrels moving together as per the real gun.

Thank you very much for the information, as I always thought that these 4.5 and 4.7 guns moved indepent of each other using the HA sighting system.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 14, 2015, 03:31:19 pm: Well the barrels have been reduced in length and I have a 10 inch knitting needle in plastic and now working on this double mounts. The centre mantlet mount is OK and I have the double mount barrel holder in place.

Can any one advise what would be the best way to drill plastic so that I have a nice clean hole. The speed of the drill must be important as on my test drills the plastic either on slow speed binds and stops the drill or on fast speeds enlarges the front hole and seems to heat up the section and residue bonds to the drill. Is there a secret to drilling this stuff (APS)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: hmsantrim on March 20, 2015, 05:21:04 pm: Hi Paul.
do you drill the hole to size with the one bit or do you start with a small drill and work up the sizes. Maybe the bit is not sharp enough to clean cut the plastic at the speed you have it set at. Back in the 70`s when I worked in the chain factory I remember what was called "cutting fluid" was used to cool the tool being used on some jobs maybe you need some on yer tool. O0
Frank
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cutting+fluid (https://www.google.co.uk/#q=cutting+fluid)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 30, 2015, 04:52:32 pm: Well I have racked my brains and really had a hard job to find a way to drill the gun barrell access holes, which are clean and straight. Then just like any other thought, up pops the idea. I made a jig using a square block of wood with a 10 mm hole drilled through the centre. Then cut the square to 16 mm in length to match the size of the tube. Then drilled 3 mm holes in a position 3.5 mm in from each end on a straight line draw down the center. I put each section into the center of the jig and then using my small hand held RS drill; drill it using the holes already drilled. Job done test worked fine so onwards and upwards.

The other problem I have been struggling with hence the quiet spell is the stern of the keel. Trying to find a way to insert the 8 mm thick prop shaft into the keel and through the bulkheads. Well this has been done and I am now bonding the bulkheads to the keel. Can only do two a day to ensure the glue bonds and cures to ensure a strong bond. So as I progress will post photos for the work as I go along. Will not boar you with photos of each frame will show sections as I go along.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on March 30, 2015, 08:52:07 pm: Just do some photos of the knarly bits as that is where you have been applying your most intense efforts and thoughts and thus of the most interest and education for us. Then one or two of the whole framework. Then if there are any questions about a particular frame, you can add an image of t if the answer warrants it.

I look forward to seeing your jigs and frames Paul.

Ian:O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 31, 2015, 07:37:51 pm: Hi Ian, Here is the jig I made and the end result with all the gun barrels mounted.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on March 31, 2015, 08:45:03 pm: You know when a project is a setrious undertaking when the assemblies are stacked up like you see in engineering firms! Thanks for sharing your methods with us Paul.

The turrets look good and just illustrate how large the model will be when complete.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 02, 2015, 01:09:58 pm: Here are the frame section from 13 to 24 now in place and bonded with the prop shafts located and in position ready to be bonded once the bilge keels are in place and the location for the position of the two 'A' frames have bee recorded in bulkhead 19.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 02, 2015, 01:22:33 pm: I am sure some of you will notice the cut out sections along both side of the frames. These are the platforms for the boat decks, quarter deck and aft side deck ready for supporting the decks when fitted. There will be no need to use supports for these decks as I have put them in at the planning stage. This will save a lot of hassle and fiddly work later, just build the decks and slide in and bond.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Perkasaman2 on April 02, 2015, 04:08:40 pm: How about block foam between frames then cut and sand down to final hull shape to make the plug for the bow and stern. This may be easier and cheaper than using balsa wood block.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on April 02, 2015, 05:23:08 pm: hi ya Paul, very neat workshop and very neat build. May I ask you one question, why have you built it keel down with this build being an Aircraft Carriers the flight deck is reasonably flat so therefore would it not have been better to build it upside down and maybe easier to build the frames true and square.

aye

john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 02, 2015, 05:35:06 pm: There is no correct way to build the frame John, but after reading a few books and looking at other builds I felt this would be the best way due to a few reasons. The stern part of the flight deck slopes downwards by about 1 inch from the center prop shaft and the has a flat section untill you get to the bow. Also when planking they say you should blank from the top down and from the keel up and meet in the middle where you will then have to match with steelers. So I was limited for space for half the year it made sense to me to put the keel down first, just as they do with the real build and work from there. The only problem I really had difficulty with was drilling the propshaft and if it was the other way up it would have been much easier. So we live and learn, and so far the build has been fun. O0
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on April 02, 2015, 05:44:15 pm: hi ya Paul, as you say there is no correct way to building a hull - just your own way and the way you are happy - however, what I have found personally in the past, when I have built a hull in the same way you have, with the keel down you tend to get a lot more twists in the framework of the hull - as the frames aren't truly secured to a building board. But, I suppose, if you put the flight deck on first (temporarily) securing all of the frames this will hold them all in place rigidly whilst you plank. The thing is though, make sure you plank evenly, from side to side as if you don't do this, this tends to create uneven stresses in the hull - and this tends to distort the hull as well. The way around this is on this Aircraft Carrier hull (as no doubt you will have thought about this) is to put large ply panels in where the armour belting goes on this hull. This should stiffen all of the frames up prior to planking.

hope this makes sense and hope I am not coming across as trying to tell you how to make your model - its just thoughts. :-)

aye
john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 02, 2015, 05:58:20 pm: No John all advice is welcome as this is my first attempt at doing a plank on frame hull. I hope to have the flight deck cut from 1.5mm birch ply and clamp in place but this is just under 8 feet long so managed to get sheets 1200 mm by 330 mm which will suit. I like the idea of the side armour plating on to help give the hull strength. I did a dry fit run with the frames and the bilge keel in earlier photos and found then the hull was very sturdy and did not flex at all due to the top deck stringers which run the full length of the hull on both sides and with the prop and bilge keels in it did not move. So I could then turn her upside down to work on her. But thanks for the pointers always willing to learn. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on April 02, 2015, 06:15:58 pm: Hi there Paul

I have just had a good read of your thread and I really admire your build/what you are taking on.

One thing that is going on in my head, and I cant get around it, are you going to fix the bilge keels to the frames first and then plank, so therefore you will be planking up to the bilge keels? Or, are you going to plank & seal the hull first (with whatever method you like to use) and then fit the bilge keels?

Cos, fitting the bilge keels first I can foresee a few problems occurring whilst trying to seal the planking around the bilge keels unless you have a method in your mind, which you haven't disclosed as yet.

aye

John
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 02, 2015, 11:35:52 pm: I can't wait to start a plank on frame model. working on that stern area must have been like juggling chainsaws, what with all the odd shapes and the fact that the shaft is the only solid thing for part of its run through the keel. The keel up framing does worry me, but as you say, you have a flat top to work with and you are turning her upside down to plank, so I reckon it will plank up nicely.

Using the armour belt as a stiffener is inspired; I will try that out one day.

Keep up the good work, its an interesting topic.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on April 03, 2015, 12:28:16 am: Paul......40 years ago.....my first POF vessel [six foot long] was built <*<....with the full length keel plate securely screwed down to the building board........& with the frames notched into the keel plate and temporarily blocked & again screwed down to the building board

The building board was supported on trestles so this also allowed access to both sides of the hull ....... & there are however a few simple rules........

One plank to the port side.......the next plank is the identical but mirror reversed plank installed on the stdb side

This also near mirrors full size planking type construction ........remember Noah with his POF build had the Lord as his nautical building advisor all those years ago %)......... good luck........Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 03, 2015, 11:28:38 am: The one thing I have learnt is to check and measure, check and measure and again. When I did the building board I made sure it was just wide enough to work around and hold the frame in place. Due to the size of the Ship I knew that to try and cut all the bulkheads by hand and ensure uniformity was not going to work for me; so I have the frames put onto a CAD software program and got them laser cut. That way I know the frames would be very accurate and to the correct shape with no errors. Then I worked out what spacing I needed to plank from the keel up to the frame and that worked out at 2.5 mm thick.

So each frame mounted on a 12 mm deep keel was cut to a depth of 9.5 mm that would give me a height of of 8 in and 4/8. from frame 21 to 5. the last three frame are lower in height to allow for the dropped rear flight deck as she was during the 1939 to 42. So made up my own height measure and when fitting each frame they where lowered on to the keel in dry fit to check height and adjustment made as necessary. Each joint was a very tight fit to ensure a good fit and bond.

To aid the fit and ensure all frames are square I fitted stringers along the deck to (1) ensure the frames are level and to ensure a rigidness. (2) to give nice square corners in all four areas. Also used the set square to ensure perpendicular was straight and the ruler to ensure the center line was straight. So as each bulkhead is fitted (the photos show) I have used this method to ensure the complete frame will be set square.

As planking starts, I will start from the top with one plank each side and work my way down to the center/water line. Then work from the keel up to the center/water line trying to keep all the planks laying as straight and natural as possible with no twist and the use steelers to fill in the spaces.

I will be inserting the bilge keel before I plank to ensure a firm and rigid frame as recommend by the builder Mr Brian King in his advanced ship modelling book. So as the planks reach the bilge keel they will be shaped to fit this keel and with the bonding agent make a nice bond. Then once the frame has been built the inside of the POA I will coat with glass fibre agent thinned down so that it will fill and seal from the inside any gaps and aid the bond, could also use exterior varnish.

Once the shape of the outside of the hull is nice and smooth and correct shape I will coat with a pattern making film coat to give the gel type finish to the outside and then rub down with a second coat to remove any blemishes. This is being researched as I build. saw a video on making a pattern for a mould and this looks like a better solution the P40.

Hope this information is useful.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Bob K on April 03, 2015, 12:39:04 pm: Beautiful work Paul. I shall continue to read this build thread with great interest :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on April 03, 2015, 01:39:59 pm: Hi ya Paul

I can basically understand where you coming from in regards to the fitting of the bilge keels; as you are following the good advice /build notes of
Brian King, the builder. I have both of his books and Advanced Ship Modelling mentions the bilge keel fitting.

May I bring to your attention the fact that the majority of Brian's models are static - and this does, I feel, play a large part in keeping the hull watertight.

'Bread and butter' building technique seems to be the preference of Mr King for his models. This makes the fitting of the bilge keels a lot more simple - because the static model hulls don't really have to be watertight.

Also, 2 books to read which would be good - (well I find these helpful - for planking/fitting out hulls):

Ship Modelling from Scratch by Edwin B Leaf ISBN No: 0 07 036817 1

Scale Model Warships by John Bowen - ISBN No: 0 85177 070 X

These books are available sometimes on Fleabay at reasonable prices, but you may already have these to hand.

If you sought out the build of HMS Exeter 1939 I may have shown how I located and fitted the bilge keels on her with Plasticard/brass pins to support them into the frames.

aye

John
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 05, 2015, 04:27:58 pm: Have had a look around for these books the first is on some sites and the cost is about £10.00 the second is not readerly available in this country, so will try my library and see what they have and have a read to see if there are items in there that I have not read as yet.

The test run I made with the bilge keel is to shape the plank around the shape of the bilge keel. This would then be bonded to the frame same as normal and then also bonded to the side of the bilge keel. There should be no leaks if the bond is good. Then with the sealer I am going to use on the inside to seal all the wood framing will add to the bonding in this area. Then to paint the complete exterior of the hull with a pattern forming gel which is like a second strong skin will seal the exterior so there will be no place for water to leak inside in the area of the bilge keel as the hull will have a gel coating as strong as a GRP moulded hull.

I take on board your comments and will watch and monitor this area with greater care based on your advise and we will see if it works. I believe this self leveling gel coat will be the key.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 13, 2015, 02:38:15 pm: Can any one help with some information on the attached photo which show some sort of window/slide cover or filter to the rear of the 4.5 HA/LA Mk111 gun turrets. I have done the first set of turrets and fitted the air vents and shell extractor on the the 8 turrets, but not really sure what these area are.

1. the op of the turret in the foreground has some sort of riveted seam in the shape of a cover.
2. the turret in the background has what looks like windows/filters on the belvel of the turret at the rear.

Have not been able to trace any info so any gunnery officer/seaman have an idea what they might be?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 13, 2015, 06:40:57 pm: Here are photos of the 1st batch of 8 gun turrets which I will use for the 2nd aircraft carrier (GRP hull). These where a trail run to iron out the build process so the 2nd batch for the plank and frame hull will be much better. I found some photos which show the position of the air vents and the shell case extraction chute and the rear of the turrets I have put in the detail of the photos which I think is rear hatches to enter and leave the gun turret by the gun crew.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on April 13, 2015, 07:47:29 pm: They look fine to me Paul, that's what I do when I'm not sure about a detail just make it look like the photos at 1.96 scale it usually looks the part. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 13, 2015, 09:13:46 pm: That is an epic job making sixteen turrets. Still, they are well detailed what ever the bits do in real life. Are you goung to camouflage either of the carriers?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2015, 10:06:47 pm: Paul......all those 4.5's look like identical cousins from the same factory :-))

BTW....that open mouthed bolt on is I believe termed as a "cows bell"......a solenoid hammer & bell.....very loud...used constantly when the mount was about to train or elevate

Very much like sounding of a fire bell of the same period........a warning device for other deck crew that the mount was about to move.....would not have been used during hostilities ............. Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 14, 2015, 01:53:14 pm: Thanks Derek, yes they do look like they came from the same factory, I try hard and do not always succeed but these 8 came out OK. The next 8 should be a lot neater and with less errors in the joins. I'll use some fine filler past to correct these but they will do for the GRP hull (HMS Indomitable). :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 15, 2015, 05:20:09 pm: Bit more done today, worked out the area of the platform which will hide the lead weight and strengthen the frames when bonded in. Also checked the position of the motors in relation to the propshafts. All drive will be by belt so need to ensure clearance for the belt and pulley system. Once the template was measured and marked out on card this was cut and as the photos show fitted in without any problem. The template will now be transferred to a section of 3.6mm ply ready for cutting and filling to fit. The center line will be the cut line to fit in each section and when planking is complete will be removed and bonded in once the lead balance has been put in. All this planning now will aid the fitment of motors and servo along with wiring so I should not have to make any adjustment and work in confined places later in the build. I will also be putting cable conduits along and through the frames to keep wiring clear and tidy.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 15, 2015, 09:29:56 pm: Even as a model, it looks cavernous Paul! I can already imagine the hangars fulll of aircraft, fitters and parts hanging from the beams.

Brilliant progress.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 17, 2015, 08:24:10 pm: All the frames have now been installed along with the rudder and the three propshafts. The A frames have been marked and now need to make the securing brackets for them to lock into. (next job next week) Also did some work on the GRP hull too.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 17, 2015, 08:50:21 pm: That forward flight deck must really help stiffen the bows Paul.

I envy your neighbours across the road, I would be watching you build from the window all the time:O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 17, 2015, 08:54:22 pm: The bow lines look really great, and once sanded to match the lie of the planks she will really look the part. I am looking forward to sanding her down and getting ready to plank, but I must say she is looking very nice at the moment.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 17, 2015, 10:00:37 pm: I almost want to see her with a transparent hull to show the frames off and perhaps the hangar in action!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 23, 2015, 08:10:58 pm: More work carried out on Lusty, her lower deck (Plate form for running gear has been cut and fitted (temp) so that the access for the props can now be seen. I have now removed the keel supports and turn the hull upside down. I have started to rub down the frames so that the planks will lie as flat as possible and follow the contours of the hull. I have her sitting on the flight deck sheets to mark off the frame locations and work out were the bow starts and the stern so that I can make the moulded sections in these areas with balsa wood block and then sand to shape. Tested with a couple of strips of plank wood to get the feel.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 23, 2015, 11:06:07 pm: Lovely work Paul. Now you have shaped the frames, it looks like a whale skeleton.

I look forward to the next installment.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 24, 2015, 10:45:47 am: Thanks Ian, she will hopefully have a bow and stern shell made and fitted ready for the main event the planking. That should be fun as I just do not know where to start and the best way to lay the planks. Do I steam then to get the twist and bends or do I grimp them to achieve the shape or just let them lie. So many options and so little information out there for new starts. Also the ship plans show areas outside the flight deck like the spoons and other walkways which look like they are part of the hull but the flight deck does not cover them so I have to find photos of these areas. This hull is not going to be easy to plank! %%
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on April 24, 2015, 11:15:01 am: Hi Paul
This may help you with your planking
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7947.msg77352.html#msg77352

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15073.0.html

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,33734.msg333402.html#msg333402
aye
john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: SailorGreg on April 24, 2015, 10:06:14 pm: You might also find this handy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=369&v=BTQm-y6OP_E (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=369&v=BTQm-y6OP_E)

The first part is pretty bland, but start around 6.15 to see plank bending without water, hot or cold.

Greg
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 25, 2015, 01:32:22 pm: Question, does anyone know what type of vehicle was used to move the aircraft about on the flight deck and below deck in the hanger in the 1939-1942 period on RN aircraft carriers. I have been told they may have used David Brown tractors or was it just by the men on the flight deck. Also would like to see some photos if anyone has any.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 25, 2015, 01:34:47 pm: Thanks John and Ian, will read with great interest and watch the video and hope I will add to my knowledge base. As this is the very first plank on frame and at such a size I want to ensure I get it correct. Thanks again for everyones help.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Netleyned on April 25, 2015, 02:39:23 pm: Someone will undoubtly correct me but I think the first flight deck tractors
appeared in 1944.
Bit like an old dodgem car.

Ned
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: warspite on April 25, 2015, 03:06:57 pm: Not sure but just entered UK flight deck tractors and hannats (see link - hope it works) has a 1940 item 2nd one down, will still look, apparently a site stated that they use willeys jeeps on US vessels

http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?manufacturer_id=362488

or put UK RN Flight deck tractors and there is a blog about an F4 Models for a vehicle in late 50's to 60's
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Netleyned on April 25, 2015, 03:28:00 pm: That is the one that appeared in 1944.
In the early 1960's there were a couple of these stuck in
a corner of a hangar at RNAS Worthy Down near Winchester.
Where they went when WD closed and everything moved to Lee on Solent
Is anyone's guess.
Probably scrapped.

Ned
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: warspite on April 25, 2015, 03:36:51 pm: Ok - from what I can tell from
http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/402/An-Illustrious-Hero.aspx
When in Ceylon they used an elephant when on shore, lol

but carry on a bit and it shows illustrious in dock Australia, just after that there is a picture showing a corsair taking off, just behind the forward right side pom pom which is just after the two turrets, it shows the manual crane (this is also shown in an earlier photo) sat between the pom pom and the photo vantage point, just in front of the pom pom is the little 1940's tractor shown on Hannats site, there is a aircraft handler watching the take off and another looking up at the photographer behind him, to their right and further forward is the front of what looks like two little trucks with sacks on the back with a sack truck to the right.

As there is no date I can only presume this was in 1945
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 26, 2015, 02:52:05 pm: Thanks guys, this information has been a great help. I was nearly sent off in the wrong direction and now back on track. I also noticed that there was two other types of deck tractors parked next to each other with some sort of frame on the back but the steering wheels are clear to see maybe they are the same type of vehicle as in the foreground but with something attached for deck work. The front nose area is very square so maybe note the same vehicle. But thanks for the pointers and also some nice clear photos of Lust bow in drydock, will help to shape my effort. :-)) Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 27, 2015, 11:44:30 am: Thanks to Bluebird for putting those links to his plank on frame tutorials. They give me more confidence to have a go some time next year:O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 27, 2015, 11:59:59 am: These seem to have been on board ship when HMS Illustrious was in the Far East, that period was 1944/45 so not sure if they were part of the ships equipment around 1940/42 which is the area I am building her.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: warspite on April 27, 2015, 01:19:28 pm: I didn't post the pictures as I do not have copyright ok2 , but that's the ones :-)) .
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Netleyned on April 27, 2015, 03:52:38 pm: The earliest mention I can find for the tractors was 1944.
The flight deck crane may have been around a tad earlier..
Most crash on deck writeoffs were normally pushed over the
side by the aircraft handlers or chockheads as they were known..

Ned
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 27, 2015, 04:20:10 pm: I have been informed that the crane is Ransome and Repair crane made in Ipswich and the type numbers could be 4120,4142 or 4140. It looks like the tug seen in the photo came on board around the 1944/45 as the US planes where a lot heavier and need a mechanical tug to move them. So Lusty will be having just the Ransome crane on her flight deck.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 27, 2015, 08:50:08 pm: I found an image on Wiki showing Lusty supposedly taken in 1942. I cannot discern the 'thing' parked some distance infront of the island as the image is too small. I cannot say if it is a tug or trailer.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 28, 2015, 11:50:36 am: Hi Ian, I think the photo you was looking at is the Tractor photo (second one) I posted above blown up and cropped to see what was there. But do appreciate your research into this subject. :-)) Paul.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 28, 2015, 02:04:21 pm: Here is a good close up view of the Ransome and Repair crane (Jumbo)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on April 28, 2015, 03:08:22 pm: Just a small correction Paul, that should be Ransome and RAPIER not repair :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 28, 2015, 04:16:11 pm: Thanks Joe, need to replace the milk bottle tops again. %)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 28, 2015, 09:19:37 pm: No worries paul. Infact, I am sure I have seen that dodgem style tractor in footage or a film involving a factory. Unles Essex and Nick's Penguins have got into my brain, I think it might be a tug for towing trolleys with goods etc, converted to tow aircraft.

If I am gibbering, do please correct me.

TTFN Ian:O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: DavieTait on April 29, 2015, 07:48:02 pm: Photo I've just seen of Lusty in 1941 of her pom-poms

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDv4XPxUEAAGOGe.jpg:large)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 29, 2015, 11:47:26 pm: Those mounts never fail to impress me!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 30, 2015, 11:58:50 pm: Thanks Davie,

Here are mine, one I made last year when I built the island, which I am still working on. The No 2 pom pom has to be set down into the front of the island and had a walkway and magazine lockers stored all around this unit.

The link to view the first part of my build is here as these photos have not been published on here.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/92998762@N02/sets/72157640833731444/

Enjoy Davie. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 01, 2015, 03:54:35 pm: Little more work done to the stern. Need to find a way to make a nice even curve for the stern that was correct and not just place a solid bit of wood and shape. So I copied the ship lines for the decks and then like the ship frames cut them out and made template of the decks and then placing them on the frame cut as necessary and position as per the ship plans. Worked perfectly, and all I have to do now is insert cut sections of balsa wood and bond in place. then rub down to the edge of the deck templates.

The bow is a different problem thats next. %%
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 01, 2015, 09:51:41 pm: You will get there Paul. Mind you, you will be a stronger person mentally once the ends are complete :o
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2015, 03:03:46 pm: Well the stern section is now ready to be shaped after all the deck sections have been installed and filled with balsa wood. So just have to cut off the excess wood once the glue has dried then rub down to gain the shape. (Photos to follow).But here is a question for some advise. With the bow I have to create the shape from blocks of balsa. Is there any way I can mirror the shape of the bow to this block wood sections to gain the shape and polish to a final finish. I am worried that I fail to make the shape from drawings. Advise please?

Here are the photos of the stern section. I have still to finally rub down once the planking has been done to marry up the thickness of the planks to the stern section. The bow is as said before another problem. Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Sandy on May 10, 2015, 03:36:29 pm: Hi Paul,

I am not sure I understand what you are asking regarding the bow?

But, make sure when shaping the balsa sections that you use a Permagrit or sanding block that spans the plywood frames. This stops, should you use a short sanding block or just sandpaper on your fingers, the balsa form 'dipping' due it sanding more easily than the ply and so the shape 'dips' in the balsa.

You can also hit snags laterally where your planks and planking ends and the soft balsa starts unless you manage to keep the sanding implement large enough to avoid dipping.

Looking good though. The superstructure looks great!

Would you bring it to the NWW in July as a work in progress?

Best wishes
Sandy
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2015, 03:47:31 pm: Hi Sandy,

As you know from the pictures of Lusty and other in her class before and after; the bow has a very defined shape. I was looking around for a way to make a copy of this shape in a way like a cardboard cut out section for each side to mirror the shape and sand with paper to that shape by matching the cutout with my work. Is their any kind if way to get a two dimensional view from the picture either CAD drawing or a tool.

Would not mind bringing the build to the weekend but it depends on what dates I am free as my daughter is over from Oz with her husband and then I have a wedding to go too. So will look at the dates on this system and see if I can make it. I do not have any way to display this model on a table or any cover for it should it rain. Do you want me to bring all the work so far including the planes and items made by hand. Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on May 10, 2015, 04:49:47 pm: hi ya Paul

There is a way to create a 3D image and also a model:-

by using your frame plans and plotting where the frame cuts through the vertical buttock lines and also the horizontal water lines of set frames from the bow.

Each intersection will be marked off onto a piece of cardboard; forming the profile shape which could be cut out from the cardboard and offered up against the hull.

The only thing I don't understand is - why have you blocked the stern section in with balsa wood? Would it not have been easier to vertically plank, tapering the planks towards the keel forming a cone shape. I have noticed that there is an intermediate deck at the stern for all the mooring winches etc., which have large cut outs in - which is going to be a bit awkward to cut from balsa wood.

aye

john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 11, 2015, 11:56:36 am: Hi John, as you can see from the ship line plans supplied by the NMM; are the only ones on file. The bow lines (shape) does not match the final build. These are dated 1937 the bow changed shape from these plans so I can not see how to work from them. When I spoke with NMM they confirmed that this problem has been reported before by others. So I have to work with photos and try to get an idea of the the shape. The one thing I do have is the GRP hull which I could copy the shape of the bow to suit the build.

As for the rear quarter deck which sits on the line of the hanger deck; has only a small balsa wood insert which is only about 1/2 deep. This can then be drilled out very easily when the resin has been applied over the finished hull and then shaped. I wanted to use wood all the way round but did not like the look of the wood bending at the bottom of the keel and thought the pressure around this area should be a low as possible. Also felt that balsa wood was easy to shape and work with. Think I got it right and the proof of the pudding will be in the final display.

As most of the sub decks either side of the hull are inline (except the boat decks which are slightly higher and lower of this line) with the hanger deck, I had to leave the the blanks supports in to hold the planking. Once the planks are on and the resin and gelcoat have been applied they can be cut away where required as the hull be be stronger and held in place around these areas.

So will look at your idea and see if any shape can be made with the lines shown and compare with the grp hull.

Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on May 11, 2015, 11:40:36 pm: Paul......just my twopence worth :o

P 113844 Elevation View
F/R is a reference line created where the waterline intersects the hull, it also projects upwards where this line meets [the deck?] and from there a dimension FWD to the extremity of the deck

P 113843 plan view
F/R also referenced the axis or centre of the pod...however this pod in the real vessel is partially outboard of the footprint of the deck....the position of the pods in the photograph is also approx. the length of 5 people or say 25'........

It is nearly as though the End Elevation and Elevation plans do not show the actual deck level....they have a hide >>:-( selling such incomplete plans....[possibly drawn by a 1st year apprentice or the Tea Lady :embarrassed:]

The only reference to the foot print extremity of the deck is shown in the plan view

There are masses of images of Illustrious in Google........and all provide a much better perspective of the final build

I would be inclined to build from the photographic images, as your GRP model is only another persons interpretation of ???...

Take a plastic lamination image of one of the references that you base your build and if anyone questions your model......you simply say ...here she is in B&W

Keep us posted....... Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 12, 2015, 03:00:21 pm: Hi Derek, Thanks for the information I can use the 1st photos but the second was taken after her major refit in 1943/44 when the stern slop was removed also the bow and extra weapons were fitted and the forward master was changed.
I have the flight deck plans so can use the FP (Forward Point) to get the correct distance to the edge of the flight deck and pick up the downward slop of the flight deck to the edge. Sample of some photos I also found in the net.
Will take my time on this work as it could ruin the model if the shape is wrong.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on May 12, 2015, 03:40:59 pm: hi ya Paul, did you manage to get hold of the book, 'Ship Modelling from Scratch' by Edwin B Leaf?

As I mentioned earlier on - in this book there is a chapter devoted about enhancing drawings from photographs - and this would help you no end with your problem with the bow.

aye

john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 12, 2015, 05:36:50 pm: Hi John, Not yet have not been able to find one with a reasonable price but still looking.
Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on May 12, 2015, 07:11:18 pm: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ship-Modeling-Scratch-Techniques-Building/dp/0070368171
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ship-Modeling-from-Scratch-Tips-and-Techniques-for-Building-Without-Kits-Pape-/381238851150?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item58c39b364e

aye
john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 17, 2015, 10:08:17 pm: Hi John finally found one I thought they was hard back covers, which was why I was taking so long to find one so the paper back one is ok, will read up and see what it has to say. It there any chapter that you know will help me before I read from cover to cover.

Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 16, 2015, 03:09:51 pm: The bow shape is coming along nice and slow, need to take my time in this area will post pictures soon once I feel they give a fair view of what the bow will look like

I also am trying out some model moulding kit from a company which looks good but as I was given it free to try I will see how it goes. The first moulds came out OK. The mould is very elastic and can take some broad shapes and come out of the mould nicely. I tried a few moulds on lift rafts, door and a ammo box. I have been advised that Lego bricks are the best to use for making the box as they hold better and when the mould is cured they come apart and can be used again. so will try Joe's and this idea and see how they work out.

Have a few more moulds on test will show photos when they come out.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 26, 2015, 04:47:06 pm: Well I have been quite of late that does not mean I have not been working on the planking. Had a good read of a few books and carried out some dummy work on bending and fitting planks to frames. So have started to plank now so will post a few photos of the work done so far. As she is a long ship will not boar you with every step but will give a progress report at every important part.

Also been working on the carley rafts the group that is on the island and hanging from the side. I had already made the frames for them to be hanging from but tried a few ways to make the retaining straps so that they look the part. So I am of the the local dress makers to see if I can get some cloth strips about 2mm in width to look like strapping to hold the rafts in place. Tried cutting 0.4 mm plastic card but that breaks at the join when glued and folded. So cloth will have to do.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 27, 2015, 03:42:00 pm: Some photos of the work so far. Started with laying two 5mm sections to start off the run of planks, that was followed by two sections of 10 mm planking. Each section was laid up and positioned to ensure that they all laid flat and flush with the next plank. Then worked out where each section joined at the frames so that I had staggered joints all along the keel never having more than one on each bulkhead. I could only do one plank section at a time and used small flat square sections held by clamps to ensure the sections between the bulkheads married up and bonded flush with the upper bonded blank.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 27, 2015, 03:52:34 pm: Before bonding each plank is positioned and clamped in place overnight to get it to hold the bends and curves of the hull line. This helps in the bond as the planks are ready to be bonded the next day. So far no need to steam to gain shape.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 02, 2015, 09:53:08 pm: Good to see it is gently coming on.
The idea of dry clamping the planks to take on the shape needed is a good one.
Noted in the memory :O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: dreadnought72 on August 03, 2015, 01:08:15 am: You can never have enough clamps! :police:

Hull's looking good!

Andy
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 03, 2015, 05:06:16 pm: Yes the hull is coming along nice and slow. Due to the number of clamps I can only do three planks per day so its going to be a long hall. Once the bottom of the hull is planked and passed the bilge keel I will need to watch to start planking from the deck line up to the keel and match in the splinters.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on August 03, 2015, 05:12:04 pm: You must have the patience of a saint.

However there are, no doubt, plenty other little jobs to be doing while you wait O0

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 03, 2015, 08:11:24 pm: Well that me about one third of the way through, as you can see now I have to start shortening the planks lengths to create a straight line round the hull sides to create the water line. That now means I will have to tailor the ends to match up with the water line at the stern and bow. A lot of cutting and trimming.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 03, 2015, 08:50:27 pm: Can you use 'Stealers' to make your planking easier or is that just going to add more complex sanding and carving to the job?

I love the way the planks conform to your frames so lithely Paul, looks gorgeous.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 04, 2015, 03:45:12 pm: Here is how I am planning to work out how the remaining planks are going to be fitted to the water line level. Marked the water line from the deck and marked each bulkhead. Then placed a 10 mm plank to below the line and held in place while I check the any future planks placed will seat straight and should not require any major stealers to be fitted. Once done placed a 5 mm plank above the 10 mm I had just placed and then pinned in place. The under side of this plank will be the top of the water line. Then using the clamps I placed a mixture of 5 mm and 10 mm planks in place held by clamps to work out how best to position the main planks and mark for were they need to be cut to fit into the next plank. Once done I remove the planks one by one and place them on my work bench in order they came off ready to be fitted back in place once the final cuts have been worked out and cut.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 04, 2015, 09:52:42 pm: I have been taking notes on the way you reinforced your build board as well Paul.

Tidy work mate:O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 06, 2015, 06:04:18 pm: You seem to have a very keen eye Ian, yes it was recommended in one of the books I read to ensure the board was mounted on a good solid frame to ensure it does not twist. I have to stop work for a few days now as I have just had an op for an herna and not able to lift or stand for a few weeks. So will be sitting down doing some more gun turrets.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 06, 2015, 10:36:45 pm: Good idea Paul. You don't want your hobby hospitalising you. Good luck with the operation.

I like to take in as much as I can from a photo. I work on the principle that you have made the effort to upload them, so we might as well make the effort to study them; and so learn a few ideas. I was wondering about mounting my first build board on lengths of angle iron as getting very straight wood might not be so easy. I suppose it requires careful selection to make sure you don't buy warped lengths.

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: warspite on August 07, 2015, 01:54:07 pm: even angle iron warps over a set length and it twists
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Liverbudgie2 on August 07, 2015, 03:33:27 pm: You might find advantageous to invest in staple gun, not a desk one but a heavy duty one, to fix the planks to the frame; it really does speed things up. the staples can be removed when the glue has dried.

I use this: http://www.screwfix.com/p/stanley-heavy-duty-staple-gun/62930

LB
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 10, 2015, 04:48:22 pm: Thanks for the information LB. I had looked at pins and nails and clamps, and I have found the straight forward method of clamping in place works well and allows for errors and I have no extra holes to fill in.

Ian,
I got hold of some 4 X 2 strips and then got them cut down to 2 X 2 and trimmed so that they were as straight as anyone could ask for. Then secured them to the sides and cut sections for the ends and along the middle so that there is a cross support beam every 2 feet. So the build board should remain flat for this build at least.

Op over and I am black and blue with bruises and wish the pain would go away. But the days are getting better and back on the planking again. Have completed one side up to the water line and now working on the other side. She really is taking shape and looks good. Post photos when she is planked to the water line.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 10, 2015, 08:31:15 pm: Thanks for the information Paul. Seeing you chaps do this sort of thing really gives me the confidence to start my cruiser.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 12, 2015, 06:18:42 pm: Well thats the planking done to the water line. Must now seal the inside with glue or varnish to ensure all the cracks have been sealed before I rub down and get ready for the top coat of jell
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 12, 2015, 06:20:56 pm: The final test was to mount the floor to the model to ensure it fits.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 12, 2015, 09:37:08 pm: Lovely work Paul!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 12, 2015, 11:54:11 pm: Thanks Ian, I think I have done not bad for my first attempt and my fourth build.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 21, 2015, 01:53:31 pm: The next part of the build before I finished off the planking from the deck down to the water line was to cut out the landing deck and position with all the spoon decks in place. So my first idea was to find some place who could photo copy the ship lines and reproduce a full scale deck image and then I could get that printed out and transferred to to the planks of 1.5 mm beech marine ply. No such luck, no one around me had a copier to cover the 8 foot plans. So I tried joining together 7 sheets of tracing paper and then copied the deck straight from the NMM plans. Worked out ok but felt there was too many possibilities of errors. Any way tried it and then transferred the copy to my wood with carbon paper and a 0.01mm marker. The plan came out ok but made the one error that scuttled the drawing. The mistake I made was to draw a centre line down the center of my ply and then started to transfer the drawing from the stern forward. When I got to the area of the Island which as you all know is on the starboard side I found that I had no ply to transfer my overhang and gun deck overhangs in the area front and rear of the island. So as I had two set of the ply for both ships I am building I measured the distance from the centre line on the ship plan to the extreme on the port side and found the distance was 150cm. So using the left side of the deck ply I measured 150cm and redraw my centre line using the very edge of the ply as the outer edge of the deck on the port side and thus saving some cutting time and leaving more space for the overhang on the starboard side.

I also cut out the four spoon decks and fitted them to the hull frames to ensure the deck lined up. Once the deck had been cut I placed on the hull and checked. Some slight adjustment required but on the whole it fitted fine. So to check if the spoon deck were correct fitted the gun turrets to check if the height was correct. Also fitted the island to give an impression of the hull deck.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: spooksgone on August 21, 2015, 02:49:41 pm: That is going to be some thing very special indeed. I admire your workmanship and patience :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 21, 2015, 08:28:24 pm: Blooming heck, that is a complicated piece to mark and cut. I suppose there was not other way the deck could have been designed given the need for an unobstructed flight deck.

Excellent Paul.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on August 22, 2015, 11:28:00 am: I didn't know those decks were known as Spoon Decks :embarrassed:

We learn something new with each and every build thread on here - great stuff.

...and your build is coming along nicely :-))

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 23, 2015, 12:33:31 am: Thanks for your kind comments spooksgone, I hope to do her name proud and make the very best model of her size and type from that period.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 23, 2015, 12:34:51 am: Yes Ray, we learn a lot from the site and also from reading loads of books on the ships of the RN and of their traditions.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 23, 2015, 12:36:05 am: Looked at lots of ways to make this deck and found that two straight cuts was the best rather then three four and more to make the deck look correct.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Sandy on August 24, 2015, 09:21:54 pm: Very nice :-))

Not sure if I mentioned this before or you already know about it:-

http://www.armouredcarriers.com/

All the best
Sandy
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 25, 2015, 06:27:10 pm: Hi Sandy, Thanks for your kind words and the link, I think she is looking good now and when the hull has been fully planked and the deck is trimmed to fit she will really look the bees knees.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 29, 2015, 05:37:12 pm: Quote from: Capt Podge on August 22, 2015, 11:28:00 am
I didn't know those decks were known as Spoon Decks :embarrassed:

We learn something new with each and every build thread on here - great stuff.

...and your build is coming along nicely :-))

Regards,

Ray.

Wee correction the deck are actually named sponson gun decks. Sorry for the error.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 29, 2015, 09:44:44 pm: I think you can be forgiven:O)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on August 29, 2015, 11:53:11 pm: Glad I didn't mention it at the Boat club then...could have been rather embarrassing :embarrassed:

Thanks for the correction - Phew, that was a close one :-))

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on September 19, 2015, 11:26:41 pm: Well the hull has now been planked with the exception of the bow to the front sponson gun decks. I have to work out how to mount the front 40" searchlight platforms and then plank the remainder of the bow. Will post pictures of the work done later.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on September 22, 2015, 05:49:04 pm: Well so far so good. Needed to work out how to mount the 40" front search light platform at the bow and then work out how the final under section of the bow tied in.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on September 22, 2015, 09:24:48 pm: She has lovely curves Paul. It seems a shame to clutter her form with guns and the island.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 03, 2015, 04:52:49 pm: Update on the build, started to rub down the hull and have now installed the two outer propshafts and all the sponson gun decks have been installed. So just taking my time to rub down the hull with 120 grit paper at the moment and then will move to a fine grade to finish off. Then once winter is over the resin and glass fibre matting will done.

Question: Should I cut out all the deck side openings before I resin or after?

Made small inserts for the balance weights to sit in and these will be bonded into the hull under the deck floor in between the bulkheads, which holds the motors. Photos attached of the idea and see how it works out.

The last part of the hull is causing me a problem as the last photo shows. The hull has to meet the overhang of the front sponson gundeck walk way to the bow and also match and meet the trailing edge of the 40 inch search light platform. Just not sure how this is going to work out.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on October 03, 2015, 07:03:49 pm: Eek! I would suggest forming thin play around with cutouts for the platform, or use quite thick balsa plank and carve/sand the curves into the piece. But not having come to such a problem yet, I have not tried out either method.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 24, 2015, 04:13:39 pm: Well guys I have resolved the bow problem with the aid of balsa wood inserts cut and shaped then rubbed down to march the curve of the hull and bow. So with winter now fast approaching the the garage space has now been taken up with the trailer tent so limited to doing any more work on the hull till next year so will now revert to doing some detail work on the inner decks and making moulds of equipment needed to make the model alive.

I have 8 more 4.5 gun turrets to make cranes and aerials, lockers and two working lifts for the deck. Also a securing method to secure the the landing deck.

So will keep you posted on these areas.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Robbie11 on October 24, 2015, 06:19:04 pm: Stunning work! Watching this one with great interest!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 24, 2015, 10:30:27 pm: Thank Robbie, hope you enjoy the build. Please if you see something that will help me in my build then please chip in as this is only my firth build and my first scratch build. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Sandy on October 24, 2015, 11:14:56 pm: Looks great Paul.

How's the weight?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 30, 2015, 11:57:21 pm: Hi Sandy,
the weight is very light at the moment and the only weight is at the stern which has the rudder and props.
Just back from Exeter see my dad on his 90th birthday and at his presentation of his medal from the French government of the Legion of Honour.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on October 31, 2015, 01:48:44 am: Hullo Paul.........a little off track %)

Your must be very proud for your Dad & his presentation of his medal from the French government of the Legion of Honour :-))...Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 31, 2015, 12:16:59 pm: Yes Derek, I am very proud of what my dad has achieved. Join in 1944 landed at Normandy went through WW2 even in operation Market Garden. at the end of the war signed on and server till 1968 and then went on with extended service till 1972.

As I am the eldest grand child I have received all the medals for my dads father, and his other 4 brothers, one of which was killed in 1944 in Italy. My Dad is the last of the brothers as they have all passed on. He was 90 last Tuesday. So I have now a large frame with the medals, service details and cap badges along with photos for each of them. So will have the full set to pass on to the next generation along with my own, so they will be remembered and the medals not sold off.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on November 02, 2015, 09:19:19 pm: Excellent news Paul, both for your Father's presentation, and also being able to display your relative's medals and regimantal apparel. I hope you have them insured so that they can always be replaced should some cretin think of stealing them for a quick earner.

I just cannot imagine what those folks went through for us back all those years ago.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 04, 2015, 09:05:53 pm: Can any one help with a problem I have in trying to work out the scale of a drawing which is not show. I have the actual measurement of the original part and have it scaled to 1/96.

Example. Length of the part in 1/96 scale 1/8 = 12 inches. Length 20.78in. There fore the real length is 166ft 24 inch

The drawing the same part is Length 35.60 in and is far to big. How do I work out the scale so that I can either scale up or down the drawing to 1/96.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: dougal99 on November 04, 2015, 09:55:25 pm: The drawing you have is 1:56. 166.24ft (1994.88 inches) divided by 35.6 gives 56.03.

To get to 1:96 from 1:56 multiply all measurements by .58

HTH

Doug
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: steve pickstock on November 05, 2015, 07:16:28 am: If you have Microsoft office - you can always set up a spread sheet to do the conversion. I am pants at sums, but reasonably adroit at Xcel. I set it up with one cell b picking the data from cell a - =sum(aX*.58) X being the number of the cell, and .58 being the appropriate conversion.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: dougal99 on November 05, 2015, 10:52:25 am: other spreadsheets are available :}
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 06, 2015, 02:57:47 pm: Thanks guys for the information and it confirmed what I was thinking but could not get my head around the fact that a larger drawing then the propose size required would work taking the measurements and multiplying them with a figure would create a small size. %%
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 02, 2016, 08:59:21 pm: Work has restarted on the build, as the garage is now clear of the camping trailer. Working on the second set of guns and working out where the open decks need to be cut. Hull is fully planked and rubbed down. The center prop has been shaped and the rudder has been fitted. Photos to follow.The last photo shows the three stages of the turret construction once the main section of the turret has been bonded and filed down. The middle turret has the the top bonded and the right hand photos shows the side and base skins in position.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: spooksgone on May 03, 2016, 09:11:42 am: Great to see this back on the go, excellent topic, cant wait to see more pics :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 03, 2016, 09:22:20 pm: Totally agree. Great to see you back and whittling again. What horrible shapes those turrets are to have to shape, but the last one looks very crisp.

Its like a new series of Vikings has begun seeing you sart your new season of modelling Paul :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 03, 2016, 11:39:16 pm: Thanks guys, as this is a long project I intend to take my time and do a very good job in the build and pay attention to the detail of the ship. The second group of gun turrets will be much crisper then the first set as I practice the method to make them. The detail will be better I hope. I am now working out how to seal the spoon decks and fill them in so that they match the hull ready for the fiber matting and gel to seal the hull.

The deck cut outs also need to be drawn onto the hull and cut before the fiber matting is laid. Also have to cut the supports for the forward search lights from 1.5 mill ply. So a lot to get on with for the next few weeks.
[size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Sandy on May 04, 2016, 08:34:43 am: Hi Paul,

Looks great. I'd love to see it on the water.

As a matter of interest, and I may have missed a post, how do you get do the barrel elevation on the turrets?

Ardrossan? I seem to be spending my life in Ardrossan these days waiting for, and sailing on, the Caley Isles and now the good old Isle of Arran fixing their IT equipment. Back down there today to try, once more, to fix the IoA master's PC which suffered, em, 'storm damage'.

All the best
Sandy
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 04, 2016, 04:26:10 pm: Hi Sandy if you go back to page three and four of this post you will see the contraction of the turrets when I made the first trial batch of 8. The elevation was first on each barrel then I was informed that they worked as a pair so made the adjustment with a 10 mm knitting needle and a jug to make the opening for each barrel.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 07, 2016, 03:01:15 pm: Did a bit more work on the forward search light platforms made some paper templates to work out the shape. Then transferred the template to a bit of bolster wood and rub them down to suit the curve of the ships bow. Once a nice fit transferred to 1.5mm ply and reshaped to fit. Then cut out as per the plans to show the strengthening cutouts and the taped in place as per the photo of the damage caused back in 1940. Then made the trunking for the searchlight and the support cross sections. one done one more to go.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on May 08, 2016, 12:05:10 am: Goodness......that is a bit of complex plate work in the original build Paul %)

Any idea what the low angular band of x 3 vertical spaced rivet sets was for? & why a composite build of what appears to be welded plate & riveted stringer?

Without going back over your thread, from her build in '37, I thought she would have been a fully riveted hull

The other interesting point is the image notes fragment hole damage in the lower bow hull area, however the fractures appear to be entry points and not exit holes :D ??

Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 08, 2016, 05:59:47 pm: Blooming heck thats a pepperpot! It would be quite a nice detail touch to have the repair patches on the model telling a story. I hope the bow anchor flat wasn't occupied when she suffered that damage.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 09, 2016, 08:42:47 pm: Started on making the life boat crane mounting which will sit under the life boat deck overhang. So taking the measurements from the plans I worked out and made a paper cut model. Then made a working model with plastic car. With this template and then marked out the cut lines on to a section of balsa wood block. Once all the angles where cut using grades of sand paper rubbed down to obtain the shape required.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 09, 2016, 08:55:48 pm: I used the damage report to find close up photos of the ship in the 1940's. Here is the damage profile of the damage caused. here is the link to the damage file I found.
http://www.armouredcarriers.com/adm26783/2014/10/16/illustrious-january-10-damage-report-bomb-shell

If you look down the left side of the page you will see all the other links to the reports on damage. Its a long read but lots of detail if you really want to know.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 09, 2016, 09:18:34 pm: She was soaked in Irn Bru by the look of things as she was lucky not to lose her stern! Formidable got a slap as well I saw.

I like your crane mount. It looks odd stuck there at the moment, but whe the hull has been pierced and the crane is shipped it will look just right.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 25, 2016, 03:43:23 pm: After some thought and thinking about the quarter deck and lower upper deck I have now made a start on working out how to line up the decks with the out side hull. Earlier in this post I asked the question should I cut out the deck apertures before I lay the woven fiber matting along with coats of epoxy or should I leave and cut out later. The answer came from Colin and I asked around and the information was the same. So I made paper templates of the lower up deck and the quarter deck so that I could cut 1.5 mm decks to same shape and with finer adjustments sand papered them into position so that they lay flat. Using the 10 cm (100 mm) rule I learnt I place the ship drawings onto the hull and lined them up with the frames of my build. This then gave me the position of each aperture and also the other decks along the hanger deck.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 25, 2016, 03:48:32 pm: So with some ruler work and a home made block scribe I worked out the hight for the lower upper deck apertures and marked them out ready for cutting.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 25, 2016, 03:54:13 pm: The rear quarter deck had some work to be done so that I could measure and fit the quarter deck so cut out the rear deck area which I had filler with balsa wood during the build. Then using the template cut out the deck and fitted. Again using the block scribe I marked out the deck level and then transposed the deck apertures ready for testing and cutting out.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 27, 2016, 12:03:19 am: Your model is probably as complex as the real thing what with all the fillets and bits to get the upper hull edges to work with the decks and frames.

She is really coming along great Paul.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 31, 2016, 07:26:10 pm: At the moment I am planking the quarter deck and lower upper deck ready to confirm the measurements for these deck apertures before I cut them out. All the eight gun turrets have been completed and are now ready for primer and then top coat. Got hold of some woven fiber cloth to see if it is OK and will do the job.
Photos to follow.

Yes the build is much like that except I am the only builder so move from one part to another which when all done will come together really nicely.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 02, 2016, 01:18:29 pm: The quarter deck has now been planked and the lower upper deck is halfway through waiting on new planks to completed the work. Once done will be able to measure the hight of all the deck apertures before cutting.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 02, 2016, 01:48:39 pm: All gun turrets have been completed and primed ready to be painted. Question, when painting the gun barrels, would the whole barrel be painted gun metal or would it have the same as the turret its self.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on June 02, 2016, 03:01:28 pm: Evening Paul......

%) just Google it....I am sure you will find images for Illustrious that depict the MKI - 4.5" twins with grey barrels....same as the turrets ....

The final barrel end.... [has a term.....cannot think .......(neck or bell) ..would be anti rust.....stainless shrouds?] .............

PS....just paint the curved mantlet plates black......[they were covered in a material called 'Peredite X']......

This was a British version for the American Du Pont Teflon........Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on June 02, 2016, 09:11:23 pm: Above a certain calibre they are painted in the colour of the carriage/turret. Smaller weapons such as the Bofors gun are not. I have seen exceptions but your guns would be painted.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 04, 2016, 11:48:27 am: Having confirmed that the deck level on the lower upper deck was correct redraw the apertures and cut them out. As they are spaced some distance apart the was no problem with cutting them out as long as you take your time. Once the woven fiber cloths has been applied the support to the sections between the apertures will be stronger.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 04, 2016, 12:04:36 pm: However when it came to the quarter deck hit a problem when checking the deck high and the positions of the hull beams 21 and 22. They fell in the middle or to one side of the deck apertures. As these would have to be cut out and that would leave these sections hanging free and only supported by the planks and the stringers that run the full length of the hull. Due to the rear section of the hull having a drupe section the strings also break at beam 21. So had a wee think what can I do to add extra strength to these beams at the top and stop them collapsing down if any weight was placed in this area. So added three extra support beams running across the under side of beams from 20 to 23. Once in place have started to cut out the deck apertures.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on June 04, 2016, 12:05:12 pm: Thanks for your comments Paul, like you I'm following your build, although I don't comment that much I continue to admire your resolve in tackling such a large scratch build, well done so far mate. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on June 04, 2016, 04:43:36 pm: It shows the amount of planning and testing it took to build the real thing making sure that the scantlings and openings did not clash.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 06, 2016, 04:52:57 pm: Quarter deck all cut out and the deck is more or less in place just one or two high spots to file down around the sides to let it lay flat ready for the deck items to be fitted and then varnished. Think I will fit this before I lay the hull cloth fiber so that the deck is sealed in and water tight.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on June 08, 2016, 12:24:06 am: Great work on that planking - must have been very awkward to lay. :o

Watching and inwardly digesting....thank you for sharing, might inspire me to build something else. :-)

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 15, 2016, 09:36:19 pm: Well I bit the bullet and started to cut out each of the deck apertures. So I started by laying the upper deck plans running the full length of the hull lining up with the stern and bow. With the set square I lined up each of the scantlings to ensure I was correct. With this set of plans in place I then laid the Port view plans on top and then lined them up with the upper lower deck plans so that I had the correct position of all the boat decks corresponding to the quarter deck. Then with the aid if the set square I marked the vertical lines of each aperture. Then using my digital Vernier gauge I measured the depth of each deck support beam I had cut out during the manufacture and cutting of each of the scantlings. This then gave me the deck level. With the aid of my dividers I measured the height and width for each deck aperture. I then used a 0.4 mm drill and checked each deck level to ensure I was in the correct ball park. The end result on the Starboard side is my achievement. All the deck are just held in place not bonded yet. Hope you like the end result.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on June 15, 2016, 11:02:29 pm: Until the last two images, the apetures look so wonky because of the optical illusion of the planks as they are on a different plane to the actual horizontals! Now she is starting to look the business. Will you apply patches of GRP matting over the protuberances before applying the main sheets of mat?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on June 16, 2016, 01:54:33 pm: Looking good, what an interesting build. Please keep the pictures coming!

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 19, 2016, 06:08:42 pm: Quote from: ballastanksian on June 15, 2016, 11:02:29 pm
Until the last two images, the apetures look so wonky because of the optical illusion of the planks as they are on a different plane to the actual horizontals! Now she is starting to look the business. Will you apply patches of GRP matting over the protuberances before applying the main sheets of mat?

Will trim the matting around the edges to seal them from the water and to seal the decks. Matting I will use is 160 grams so should be light enough for one coat at the level above the Hanger deck.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 08, 2016, 12:03:22 pm: Work has now started on the Port side of the hull to cut out the remaining deck apertures, the boat deck has been done and ready to be bonded in place. Thinking of the boat decks have now to think about the boats that are on board. Should I try to build them my self or buy in. Is it possible to get drawings of the larger motor launchers such as the 36 ft Motor Pinnace, 35 ft Fast Motor Boat, 35 ft Fast seaplane tender. Also need 25 ft fast motor boat 32 ft life cutter. plus the usual 27 ft whaler a total of 17 plus boats.

I believe the 32 ft life cutter and the 36 ft Motor Pinnace are the same as those on board HMAS Sydney 11 see link. http://www.australias-titanic.com/sydneys-boats/ (http://www.australias-titanic.com/sydneys-boats/).
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 29, 2016, 06:06:03 pm: More work completed on the build. Port side has now had all the deck apertures cut and all the sub decks have been made and fitted.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 29, 2016, 06:12:55 pm: Have also completed the lower upper deck planking and made the anchor chain equipment and positioned some of the deck items. The deck can slide in place and has now been closed off.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on July 29, 2016, 09:11:17 pm: It is great to see your progress, and what progress it is. I like the deck detailing, enough to tell you something worthwhile is there without every nut and bolt, unless you have yet to add these!!!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 30, 2016, 03:32:27 pm: Thought about it on the anchor chain drives, but thought no, they would not see the nuts and bolts, that just going too far. Just hope the deck lights will show off the deck and other items.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 30, 2016, 03:42:06 pm: All the small decks have now been removed and the blast weight deck has been bonded to the keel ready for the lead weight to be added before the lower deck is placed. Fitted the complete rudder and bonded in the pivot shaft and the brass seat for the inner shaft to rotate in. This will enable the rudder to be lubricated without any fuss. All I have to do now is fit the servo and connect the push and pull rods. Will fit two rods just so that there is no possibility of a single rod off or working loose. Then I will start on laying the cloth fibre matting and sealing the hull ready for priming. Looking forward to this as this will show the hull in its true light and should look great.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on July 30, 2016, 11:12:20 pm: Quote from: Paul Swainson on July 30, 2016, 03:42:06 pm
Looking forward to this as this will show the hull in its true light and should look great.

That's the one bit, above all others, that I always look forward to - usually gives the builder the incentive to carry on. :-)

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on July 31, 2016, 04:57:05 pm: I look forward to seeing this :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 01, 2016, 12:25:06 pm: Here are the photos with the ballast plates bonded in which will hold 1.53 kg of lead at the keel and at the lowest point. Then the next photos show the lower deck in place with the position of the drive motors. This again is low down so that the hull is pushed through the water and not pushing the bow upwards requiring more weight in the bow then is necessary. Also the rudder pivot guide is in place and ready to be sealed in place.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 01, 2016, 08:03:40 pm: Cripes, she's bigger than your caravan Paul! I like the layout, it is all coming together nicely :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 06, 2016, 04:38:57 pm: Before I put the first coat of Epoxy onto her I need to make a flight deck that fits nice and evenly. The first deck I cut was a template to ensure the hull was within the 1/96 tolerance. It helped me to ensure the beam was correct. I ended up with about 1.5 mm wider then the template. Not bad for my first plans build. So made up some cards and laid them along the hull and marked out the actual beam and then cut this out and draw the out line on the new deck. I also left 1 mm to extra to leave space for error. So will cut the new deck and then mark all the small decks and overhang's which are on the plans to match the hull.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 06, 2016, 08:39:01 pm: Excellent Paul. I look forward to see the deck in progress.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on August 07, 2016, 12:01:05 am: Paul............that hull looks superb..... O0

In studies of naval architecture, it's a bit like PlaySchool :o....lets make a hull with a beam of 29.2m.....OK?......well then lets draw sets of subcomponents to equal the nominated beam.....but all of the subcomponents must be +/- toleranced for the plate cutters.....then the hole punchers come in & punch all of the plates for riveting........then the riviters come in & say these rivet holes in the plates don't quite line up >>:-(

Principal [as calculated] hull dimensions of warships of this era were established from cumulative sets of sub components......

+/- tolerances on each sub component would have certainly altered the as built dimension

The builders plans may nominate her beam as 29.2m, however if we could walk on her midships deck today with a new 30m tape, I doubt we would find an actual dimension of 29.2m.............

Dismiss any further thought of your scale build being out of tolerance.........Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 14, 2016, 05:21:43 pm: More work done. All spoon decks have been bonded in and sealed and filled to make a smooth finish also the rear flight deck support structure has been added to ensure the stern looks like the real thing. New deck is about to be cut and the epoxy job ready to start on Monday if the weather is nice and warm to allow the first coat to cure. Here is hoping.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 15, 2016, 08:40:47 pm: The first coat has been applied of the XCR Epoxy resign. As the mixture is by weight I mixed small proportions of 32 grams, and applied a very light coat to see how much would be needed to do the whole hull. So after 6 mixes of 32 grams I covered the whole hull but very lightly, no heavy coat. Think I will apply a second coat before I apply the fibre matting. Will leave for 24 hours to ensure it has cured.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 16, 2016, 11:09:15 am: OK a bit of help need here please. I would like to know which would be the best way or better way to lay the fibre matting. The first photo shows the whole hull covered and would need to be trimmed and cut at the stern and the whole process would need to be done in one go. Or the other option as photos 2 to 3 show me doing the hull in sections with less waste and can be done section by section. but there will be joins or over laps in three places or will these not be seen when the epoxy coat is applied. Your help and advise from anyone who has done this before would be appreciated.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: steve pickstock on August 16, 2016, 11:34:36 am: Get some mates round and go at it mob-handed, cover it all with one piece.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Dr.Schmidt on August 16, 2016, 11:50:16 am: Definitely one go.......slow curing epoxy and work from one end to the other.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on August 16, 2016, 01:25:58 pm: Don't forget the best way is to use small rollers starting from the middle and spreading out. You only need enough resin to wet the cloth through and ideally have the grain show through when you are finished. Too much resin will cause runs which will be very difficult to remove. On my battleship I overlapped the cloth in some areas but did it one piece length ways for the bottom then one piece for each of the sides overlapping on the bilges.

I then put on another 3-4 coast of thin resin to build up the surface to give room for wet and dry sanding. This eliminated any ridges left by overlapping the cloth.

If you can do it in one piece so much the better but I think due to the hull shape you will have to make some cuts for overlaps anyway. The cloth does have some stretch in it but not a huge amount.

I also fibre-glassed the inside as well with several cloth thicknesses where I felt there were potential stress areas.

Probably the main thing is to have everything ready, mix the resin in a flat tray - a cup will cause overheating and will set the resin in minutes - very messy - guess how I found this out! And get stuck in, don't be shy about it as you can cure any imperfections later.

With a hull that size some mates will really help you. Remember the hotter the day the faster the resin will cure so maybe do this early in the morning when the temperature is not too hot but you have the rest of the day for it to warm up and cure.

Good luck

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 16, 2016, 02:18:29 pm: Thanks guys, I have laid the matting the full length and will let it lay in the hull over night. This will I hope let the matting settle to the bottom of the hull. Should I cut off all the excess matting and leave only a couple of inches to allow for shape making around the spoonson decks and the stern for the centre and rudder. I was going to use a spatula/paint scraper to spread the resign and then use a 2 inch brush to mat it in. Am I wrong the roller is the best to use for the large areas and a brush for the small rounded areas.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on August 16, 2016, 02:35:45 pm: I've always found that a brush drags the fibreglass whereas a roller just pushes down. Some people use an old credit card but personally I would be very wary of using any brushes beyond a stippling motion. Once you get resin on it can all be quite slippery and you could literally pull one end and more it several inches. I would do cut outs for the various support bulges.

Its actually quite easy to do provided you are prepared. If you get a crease have a sharp pair of disposable scissors or a very sharp knife and a board to rest the fibreglass on to make a cut. You can then pull it all back into shape.

Its also fine to miss a bit and stick a patch on as once dried and several coats of resin applied it can easily be sanded smooth.

Its fine to allow a good overlap at the deck edge which can be cut off when its gone green, not fully set, with a sharp knife.

Be prepared for some fine filling and sanding once done but the fibreglass adds considerable strength and cohesion to the whole hull structure.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 18, 2016, 02:04:26 pm: After a day of learning I have now finished the bonding the fibre matting to the hull. Not a great perfect job but at lease I have learnt from it. 1st lesson with a large hull with protruding decks cut the fibre to suit the main hull in one piece if possible to suit the hull. Then cut the protruding decks as required and bond to the area required. Mix only small amounts of epoxy to work with and work from the centre of the hull out wards. I used a brush, did try the roller but it would not work well with the Epoxy as it started to go off and you need a tray with a fare amount of epoxy in it. So I have quite a few air bubbles to contend with and edges around the bilge keel to trim off. Have a few large areas of runs too. So when cured I will add more coats and then rub down and trim the high spots. So I am a bit disappointed with the end result of my hull so will have to work out how to smooth it out.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on August 18, 2016, 02:42:24 pm: Don't be disappointed Paul.......I have only epoxy + glass matted 2 hulls ...both with woven mat not that random layered material

You could consider after the initial curing, grinding a burst hole in the bubbles & do a supper rough sand down <*< to remove any large or substantial runs or feathered mat...you can also strategically add small mat sections to delicate shaped areas ...Super glue can be used to advantage here in tacking the small sections of mat down ....before you apply the next epoxy coat

Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on August 18, 2016, 02:55:49 pm: The beauty of fibreglass is that its all fixable. Just cut out or sand down the rough areas and put a small patch over them with an overlap with no loss in strength. Once all fixed a couple of thin coats of resin will blend it all in so you can readily sand away any minor imperfections. Car body filler is also good to get a smooth finish.

Good luck

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 18, 2016, 09:55:02 pm: Have cut out all the areas which had big air bubbles and areas that just did not bond to the hull. Sand papered down to remove the high edges. Used a scalpel to cut away small areas. The bilge keel area is the worsted effective area. Will need to trim and sand down to remove the sharp edge. I just feel that all that hard work in making the hull than sandpapering it to a nice smooth finish with nice crisp cures and edges ruined by the fibre matting not laying as smooth as one would like. So will wait till tomorrow and cut sections of matting and epoxy them in and try to make the edges as smooth as possible. Then will try the final couple of coats of epoxy to give me a mirror finish ready for the final rub down. Here is hoping.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on August 19, 2016, 08:15:00 am: hi there
Sad to say after many years of experience with fibreglass resins and epoxy resins there is only one good way of obtaining the finish you are seeking for your hull. The way to achieve this is to strip it all back, right to planking - using very coarse wet n dry. Do not use power tools, such as belt sanders because this may cause heat build up which will cause greater damage to the internal woodwork of the hull.

Stick to the hard graft of wet n dry to remove the current epoxy resin and matting. Elbow grease.

Sadly, you will then have to remove the bilge keels which you have already put on - because you will never get a moulded sharp corner.

if you do - the corner will be very weak and will tend to crack.

When you start the procedure of laying up matting again - the method I would use is:

First of all, measure off the hull and divide it into say 3 sections per side - into easily workable areas. Then cut your matting to suit these areas, allowing at least an inch overlap between the pieces. and then give the whole of the hull a first coating of epoxy resin. Allow this resin to 'go tacky' and then you begin to lay another coating of epoxy resin over the top of the centre section - lay your matting over the top of this and draw the epoxy resin through the matting with a stippling motion and you also require a small ring roller to work the resin through.

When you have done that section either move to the other side and do that side, then move on to either the forward section of the hull and then the back section.

Allow all of this to harden off for at least a day and night - then give the whole lot another 2 coats of epoxy resin and allow that to harden off for 3-4 days.

You can now sand the hull with wet n dry and bring it up to the desired finish.

Dig out the build of HMS York you will see how I achieved this in that build.

Add your bilge keels when you have finished the sanding of the hull and this will give you the edges that you require.

John
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Stumps on August 20, 2016, 06:57:05 am: Hi,

Probably closing the stable door etc.. but there a method used by the flyers when covering their models which uses peel ply as away of getting a smooth surface and not using too much resin...

here are a couple of links to guy on youtube which shows the method used.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ3O0o_MQ6o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvgNYS5dVo4

Stumps
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 20, 2016, 04:06:34 pm: The first two photos show the hull with her first coat of epoxy, the next group show the type off flaws that I have created with trying to do it all in one go with small cuts to help in going round curves. I have rubbed down the effective areas and have patched the places that I had to cut out. Once these are cured off, will do as many very thin coats of Epoxy as I can with the amount I have left. That could be three or four, depending. Then the rubbing down and using P38 to fill in the blemishes that I find. Once done will leave for a few days and then give the hull its first coat of primer, and see how she looks, may have to rub down again if any high spots are found.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on August 24, 2016, 01:25:20 pm: keep at it and you will get the finish you require. main thing is to address all the problem areas in one go and to sand back to a smooth surface before patching. Once all done several thin coats of epoxy will give you enough to sand back to the finish.

If you want to do plate lines may I suggest thin plastic card stuck with evo stick - let the fumes evaporate before you join to prevent buckling of the plastic card.

Other people just mask off with clear tape and use paint to build up the plate lines which also works well.

You will get there.

I would recommend fibreglassing the interior as well for added strength. Obviously use small pieces to fit between the bulkheads.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 24, 2016, 03:05:02 pm: Quote from: Geoff on August 24, 2016, 01:25:20 pm

I would recommend fibre glassing the interior as well for added strength. Obviously use small pieces to fit between the bulkheads.

Cheers

Geoff

Thanks for the advice Geoff. I am not so sure about fibre glassing the interior of the hull. If water was to get passed the fibre and epoxy on the out side of the hull but did not get into the hull it would rot the planking and before I new about it my hull would be ruined. So if I leave it as it is I will see water inside and then can do something about it and repair the leak.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 24, 2016, 03:09:37 pm: 1st coat of epoxy has been applied used a 24 grams of epoxy with 8 grams of hardener (3 to 1 mix) which covered the whole hull with a thin coat and no runs. Will apply another coat when dry and see how the hull looks. I think at this point I will then rub down with wet and dry and then apply two more coats and see what the finish look like.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on August 24, 2016, 05:04:11 pm: hi there
For the fear of typing another invisible posting - here goes :-) :D

As far as fibreglassing and sealing the internals of the inside of a wooden hull - personally - I would say go ahead and do it :-)

for the simple reason - bare wood, even painted wood - when wet, will expand and where you have one side of the timber sealed with your Epoxy Resin and the other side of your timber free to move and expand, it will split away from the Epoxy Resin as it expands and also split at the joints. The is because there is nowhere else for the wood to expand evenly - if therefore you seal the hull with Epoxy or Fibreglass Resin it will prevent any water penetration and therefore eliminate the chance of expansion.

The only things is, one has to double check and ensure that every bit of planking that is visible inside the hull is well sealed. The other thing is polyester resin is NOT 100% waterproof.

Epoxy is the better option for sealing.

I also have done this to life-sized wooden hull to seal them, using the West System of Epoxies and I do have some models which I did about 30-35 year ago - and they are still going strong.

John the invisible
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 24, 2016, 05:30:02 pm: Hi John, Thanks for that, as most of the hull could be sealed the bow will not as there is no room to apply the epoxy resin due to the shape. But will look at this idea again.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 28, 2016, 08:26:33 pm: Well the coats I have applied are fully cured and now ready to be rubbed down with wet and dry. Starting with 240 grit then to 400 grit and then 600 for the final rub down Then I will spray with some filler and rub down with 600 again till I get the finish I am looking for. Then I will bond the engine room and boiler protection plates to both sides and then prime. So a lot of hard work ahead but the hull is not as bad as I first thought it would be.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 29, 2016, 08:04:05 pm: Well thats not bad for initial lay up is it :-)) Over the months reading and watching fellow Mayhemists slapping the old GRP on their hulls, I would say you have done a good job with no more or less sanding than would be expected. If you were a professional GRP layer, then I suppose one would be critical, but then we don't do GRP every day.

I can reallly see the progress now and look forward to see your work on detailing and superstructure etc.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on September 16, 2016, 04:02:45 pm: How goes the battle?

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on September 16, 2016, 05:07:29 pm: Well I tried using the poly filler on one side of the hull, and it did not work out too well for me. I found it hard to get it to stick to the epoxy finish. During the rubbing down got lots of little air holes. Most likely from the way I applied it. So rubbed it down with 1200 grit wet and dry paper and found that it will not bind to the hull and flaked away in places. It was very powdery and may be it is OK for small areas. So I just rubbed down the other side again and put a full coat of primer on to the hull after I had bonded the two side armoured plate shields that protected the engine room and boilers. Will leave for a day and then start with a mix of P38 and fill the areas that need attention. Rub down and try another coat of primer and see how she looks and keep going till I feel she looks OK.

Also the flight deck cut and fitted.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on September 16, 2016, 05:30:08 pm: Looking good! Effort now will certainly repay you in the future so best to get everything as smooth as possible.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on September 16, 2016, 09:45:11 pm: Some of the areas look like they have suffered plate indentation and look very realistic Paul. Someone once suggested mixing PVA with talc but I found this to be bullet proof to sand!
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: spooksgone on September 17, 2016, 05:19:43 pm: I admire your perseverance Paul. This is going to be a show stopper when completed :-)) Please keep the pics coming.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on September 22, 2016, 05:12:03 pm: {:-{ Well first rub down done and the second coat of primer applied still more rubbing down but better then before but do not think I am going to get it totally smooth. But will see.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on September 22, 2016, 05:23:38 pm: Have now cut the bow upper deck apertures to reflect the bow. As this area is solid wood I could not continue the upper deck to go forward to this area, so they are just to show where the deck is.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 08, 2016, 02:08:04 pm: Just a bit quiet of late doing the Scottish Poppy Appeal for my area, so once my garage is free of cans and poppy stuff will be back to the rubbing down and filling again.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 21, 2016, 06:10:01 pm: :-)) O0 Poppy work done and now I can get back to my hull and some of the small items that need to be made and built. So should be posting again soon.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on November 21, 2016, 08:41:26 pm: Good oh! Can't wait to see some pictures.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on December 16, 2016, 02:37:35 pm: Working on the section of the island that holds the 7 pair's of Carley floats. From the ship plans they are 8ft x 5ft. so to scale to fit all seven to the side of the island and tether them they must not exceed 1 in in length.(2.5cm) and the tube should be around 0.15 inch. I have not found anyone who makes that size and the one I can get are to large they are 2.85 cm in length. So It looks like I will have to get some round polystyrene rods and bend to the shape. Or make a wood template and then mould. Only have to to 14 of them. so lots of wood work me thinks.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on December 22, 2016, 02:05:04 pm: As an idea, single core electric wire can be bent into good shape for carley rafts and the like. Keep the insulation on for thickness and hide the joint with tape. Cheers Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on January 03, 2017, 08:08:00 pm: Well Happy New Year to one and all. All the best for 2017.

Well had a few goes at making the 8ft x 5ft carley raft and finally finished with the two that I have made. Looked at making the raft from plastic tubing. Even with heat could not get the size correct. To match the scale of 1/96. That made the raft 1 inch long. So took a bit of 6 mm ply. Marked the outline of the raft on to it. Marking the holes to be drilled for the rope work later. Cut out the shape and then filed down to the thickness I wanted and then with sand paper and my drimel rounded the edges until I had the shape that I wanted. Using a 0.45mm drill bit, I drilled out the marked holes for the wire to make the rope work stand out in my mould. The wire came from some very fine wiring, 0.25mm strands. Using tweezers I laced this wire first one way wrapping around the inside of the raft left to right. Then laced the wire right to left using the same holes to create the crossing effect on the inside of the raft. I then using some spot solder, solder the ends of the two laced wires to the holes in the raft. The hardest part was to lace the top circle rope and then the cross ropes that do the complete diameter of the raft.

Think they came out OK. Now to make the wood floor with match sticks cut down to match the size and bond into the base of the raft. Will do that next week. Once done will make a mould and run off some singles and some doubles for the deck island.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on January 03, 2017, 09:35:13 pm: Hi Paul, from long experience and the desire to reduce your quivering in the corner as your one hundredth raft comes out with bits of rope missing %%

When applying round rod or wire to a flat surface make sure that there is a good solid join between them so that the join is both strong and helps the resin/metal flow into the rope detal negative. I use half round plastic strip for much of my beading detail, but sometimes you have to use true round material as a rope never looks right like that, but I always add a fillet using superglue or a slurry of MEK/Plastic weld and styrene. You can do the latter even on non plastic models as the slurry is a bit thick and stays in places the MEK wouldn't.

The three examples drawn below show the Half round method which as I mentioned can look bulky, then the round on round without fillet showing the small contact area, thus the small amount of space for resin to get through and finally round on round with fillets increasing the contact area greatly.

I hope this helps.

(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/data:image/png;base64,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)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul2407 on March 13, 2017, 10:23:26 pm: Just read this from start to finish (so far) and it's an epic build :-)) great work and I will be following rest of the progress of this amazing build

Well done Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 14, 2017, 12:39:21 pm: Thanks for your comments, and hope you enjoy as the build goes on. I have not been doing much work at the moment as I have not been well and have had family concerns. But feeling better and the garage will be clear of the trailer tent and will have room to carry on with the rubbing down and painting the hull. Also the instillation of the running gear. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on March 14, 2017, 08:30:04 pm: I can't wait for you to start your 2017 building season Paul :-)) I am pleased to hear you are on the mend.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 20, 2017, 04:07:45 pm: The turret on the right has been painted Medium grey 507B. The other turret is the base primer that I use. Do not think there is much in it.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on March 20, 2017, 08:26:56 pm: The right hand one is greener than the left one which is bluer, but they are very similar in darkness certainly in some light.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on March 20, 2017, 10:28:12 pm: Paul......I believe these would have been painted with the same paint as the Citadel and the hull.......so which is the selection for those?..............

The first image lists the right turret as Medium grey 507B ...this would get my vote as the most representative.....[from the colour images of the RN Fleet from that period]

Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 21, 2017, 10:58:30 am: Your are correct Derek, the turret on the right is the correct colour for the period of this build. The problem is finding a match in a large quantity to paint a 8 ft hull and the center island, plus all the inner decks and peripheral. So to the keen eye the primer I am using is a close match but in certain light it would appear blue in colour. The 507B does what it is meant to do look green against the sea.

So with the sample turret I am off to find a match using car body colours to match. That way the big area can be sprayed and the smaller area can be brushed pained. Here's hoping. If I find the match will let others know the colour code and from which manufacture of vehicle paint it matches.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on March 21, 2017, 06:25:37 pm: Hi Paul just a thought if as you say the primer is a reasonable colour why not just use that to spray the hull etc. and finish it with a sealing coat of clear semi matt varnish, the hull bottoms on most of mine are just red oxide primer, and as for the over all finish IMO it's best not to try and get perfection naval vessels are never that.
At least the rubbing down will give you plenty of exercise. O0 ok2

Joe
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 24, 2017, 04:27:43 pm: So have a few days visiting vehicle body shops and paint suppliers, I think I may have found the the match required, but would like a few others to give me their conclusion. There are three turrets, one in the correct colour one with the match I have found and one with just varnish over the primer. Can any one tell me which is the original and which is the match found.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on March 24, 2017, 05:37:57 pm: Hi ya Paul

Painting warship/any model is a bit of a 'complicated business' or should we say 'various train of thoughts' because there are those who say - we should paint the model the exact colours as the 'real I am' ship, even going to the extent of using the exact paint that was used. There are also those (like me) who think that once this ship is away from you and on the lake - it doesn't really matter how close the colour is to the 'real I am ' as long as it looks right. A friend who used to be a bit of an amateur artist as well as a modeller used to say an artist doesn't paint the object the same colour as it is - use shades of a similar colour. He suggested to me to try that - especially on me warships as a fully grey warship painted in one shade of grey doesn't look right - so subtle changes in the colouring tends to enhance the look of the model. Unless, of course, you are like me who had a model rejected in a competition because he saw I had used various shades of grey on HMS York - and when I tried to explain the theory behind me painting it this way - it wasn't accepted. Because, obviously when closeup to a model say 6 inches away - you can tell the difference and subtle changes.

So before trying to get the exact colouring match - think of the size of your model - and are you going to enter it into competitions - does it really matter if the colour/shading is a little bit 'out'.

just food for thought

John
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on March 24, 2017, 06:36:58 pm: Hi Paul, it's difficult as colours are going to look different on different PC's depending on how the colour is set up, but number 1 would be acceptable as far as I can see, but not being a rivet counter I think if it looks right to the builder nothing else matters. :-))

Joe
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on March 24, 2017, 09:41:25 pm: Too right, add to that the real life efffect of abrasive salt, sun fade and areas being repainted at different times with what were probably different batches of 'Grey'.

I reckon that #1 is the varnished one, #2 is the original while #3 is the match.

Great debates have been had on the correct shade of Olive Drab and German 'Dunkelgelb' in Military modelling circles, but in the end the same issues apply added to that is weathering and you have a movable feast. Objects further away also look lighter and with less brilliance so scale effect has relevence.

Judges be darned, build it how you want it and accept that like all artists, we are our own critics, but you have to let a project alone at some point or you will never move on to your next project.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on March 24, 2017, 09:53:57 pm: Quote from: ballastanksian on March 24, 2017, 09:41:25 pm

I reckon that #1 is the varnished one, #2 is the original while #3 is the match.

I'll go along with Ian's choice - it can't be no.1 because the shine around the rim indicates a varnish has been applied. %)

But whatever the shade - if it looks right then it is right. :-)

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on March 26, 2017, 05:04:33 pm: The original is number 3 and the match is number 2. I am pleased that I have found a match that is close enough to paint the model and not really worry about someone saying that is not the correct colour. It will work well with different areas so the effect of repainting will not stand out. Also the slight diferent shades will help when painting other areas as pointed out by other.

The match came from A. Halfords and a local body shop. But the test was done on the Halford primer. Will post photos of the can to help others find a reasonable match in a large quantity spray can without breaking the bank

Thanks for the help in this.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 10, 2017, 02:55:19 pm: Got down to some painting and finally finished off the underside of the hull ready to have the prop shaft filled with grease before I reinstate the prop shaft and rudder. Any one got an Idea to how to fill the shaft with the minimum of fuss.

Also completed the making of the 8 ft Carly rafts in batches of two and have bonded them to their positions in the support frame which will be bonded to the side of the island. Just to prime and paint once the bonding has cured and then install the silk strapping to simulate the striping which holds them in place ready for deployment.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on April 10, 2017, 03:05:53 pm: Looking very good and pleased to see the progress. A comment on colour if I may, I'm with the people who see that from a distance colour is different from close up. Whilst you have painted the underwater hull red may I suggest you have a look at Humbrol 72 (I think) which is wine as this looks very effective on the lake as its not too bright - that scale effect again!

Look forward to more updates and pictures

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on April 10, 2017, 03:40:46 pm: Hi Paul . all looking very smart, you mention "filling" the shafts, IMO shafts/tubes should never be "filled" this causes far too much drag all that is normally required is to smear the shafts with a thin grease, I use Robbe shaft grease, then assemble shafts and inject a small "plug" of grease though the greaser tubes as a water stop, but like I said this is just my opinion.

Joe.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 10, 2017, 04:26:41 pm: Your point is noticed, but my three prop shaft are all below the water line. While the two outer shafts have prop shaft end blocks with rubber silicon washers to help prevent any water entering the shafts, the centre shaft has no such methods other then to ensure the front end of the shaft has a bit of water proof grease to stop any water ingress. Thinking of this.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391351329285 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/391351329285)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on April 10, 2017, 04:36:24 pm: I've always just used a small syringe with lithium based grease to push some into the prop shaft and then work the prop shaft in with your finger over the other end to stop the grease being pushed out. As above you don't want too much as otherwise too much drag but I've used this method for years and literally any leakage is absolutely limited to just a few drops. I tend to use the outside end of the prop shaft as the thrust bearing (with a couple of small washers) and again I've not had any issues with this.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on April 10, 2017, 07:02:38 pm: If you don't have greasers I'd do what Geoff said and just have a "plug" of grease at the motor end, the shafts on my Brocklesby are below the water line but I've used Raboasch water proof shafts you don't need any grease in these but I always assemble them smeared with grease.

Joe
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 10, 2017, 08:35:24 pm: I put silicone grease into my shafts; enough to do what Joe and geoff said about plugging but not dragging the shafts.

If going down the Humbrol route (indeed for any smaller quantity tinlet/bottle paint) buy a box of them and you should benefit from them being of the same production batch.

She is looking very impressive now even upside down :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 12, 2017, 04:09:02 pm: All points noted and will work on the principle that the shaft has a slight lubrication and the ends have some grease to act as a stopper. I will hope the silicone washer will seal the shaft
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on April 13, 2017, 02:18:49 pm: As has been pointed out she looks very impressive even upside down. Lets trust this is the last picture we will see of her upside down!

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 13, 2017, 02:25:18 pm: She is the correct way up at the moment, fitting the boat decks and cutting out the top decks for the search lights aft and the HF range finders aft. Then cut outs for the two cranes. The flight deck also has to be cut to match these decks. Will post photos when one side is complete and then move to the other side. That will then complete the rear section of the the flight deck. Only have to cut out the rear air craft lift and work out how to secure the flight deck and still have access to the inside.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 15, 2017, 05:36:24 pm: This is the first side were all the aft deck cut outs along with the two sea boat decks have been installed and the rear section of the flight deck is in place. Now working on the other side and these cut out sections are not identical to the other side.

Also completed the island Carly float deck. All painted and the strapping in place to add detail to this section of the build. It will be bonded to the island when the island has been painted and fitted out and positioned on the flight deck.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 15, 2017, 07:51:53 pm: If the rest of your Lusty is as detailed as the carley deck then it will be a superb model. I love the straps on the floats, a nice detail.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 20, 2017, 04:45:11 pm: That's the Port side done and all sections on the aft end of the land deck have been cut out and ready for detail work when primed.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 20, 2017, 04:51:44 pm: I have made a go at making the 7 ton crane ready for the lifting arm to be installed along with some items hand made to represent the machinery which runs the crane.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 20, 2017, 10:12:01 pm: That is a good start on the cranes Paul. Will you make the jibs from brass or have you another cunning plan to build them? I expect you are thinking about top weight more now.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 24, 2017, 05:44:23 pm: Not too fussed at the moment about top weight, as the Island is plastic card and the plane will be deck high. Finished off the forward deck port side small gun decks and HADC decks on the port side forward of the last eight barrel pompom gun. Props are now in but think I have a tight port side shaft. very tight to turn. Could be too much grease not sure will remove and check out again. All others seem to run freely.

Have positioned the rudder servo and will put in the rudder shaft and check for fitting the control rods. As for the 7 ton crane I found during my research the all the capital ships had different set ups for the crane jib. So go two from Deans which match the ones on Lusty. So the first one has been soldered and will file down and prime. It fits nicely onto the crane i made from wood. Will see what it looks like when primed and the machinery (which I still have to make) is fitted on. If it looks the part then I will do the other side.

Drive motors have been placed on the starboard side for test fitment, Once the lower engine deck is marked up, will fit the engine cradles for all.

So lots of little jobs have been done now need to photograph the result.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 25, 2017, 09:02:41 pm: Photos as promised. The last one shows the 7 ton crane from 1st design to the last two finished build except for the jib mounts and the gearing and other items to make up the full crane
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 29, 2017, 11:56:17 am: Completed the two 7 ton crane cabs, find two large gearing wheels for the base then just need to solder up the other jib and make the runners for the cables and then mount. Finally prime and paint. Job done.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 29, 2017, 12:04:38 pm: Wow! Those cranes are great. There is no getting away with ignoring detail on such things and you have squeezed loads into each one :-))

Pompoms look good as well.

Re Tight shafts, I had the same on my monitor Thursday and put it dow to injecting too much silicone grease into the left hand one. As it was an M2 shaft, the tube was small as well, so less wriggle room for the shaft to turn. I just pulled it out ten or so times wiping grease off each time until it was a bit freer and then squirted some 3-1 oil on the shaft before re-inserting and all is now well. You have larger shafts and tubes, so this should work great on your Behemoth :}

I have learnt that with Silicone grease, less is more.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 07, 2017, 10:20:37 am: Completed the bow search light decks. Due to the shape of the bow I needed to use a shape forming tool to enable me to cut the best fit for each of the support legs. Feel I did a not too bad a job, from the temp plate first made to the final finished units.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 07, 2017, 10:46:28 am: The engine bay has now been fitted out with the new home made mounting blocks to hold the motors in place. These can be removed with just one screw and adjustments made to fit the drive belts.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 07, 2017, 11:03:02 am: Fitted all the outer deck support struts to add detail to each deck and also the mounting stays for all the eight antenna mast along with the HASC support drive system to rotate the HASC units. (which will not be working on this model) Starboard side
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 07, 2017, 11:04:45 am: Port side
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on May 07, 2017, 03:17:15 pm: Nice going Paul, getting a fair bit done now and still the summer to come. :-))

Joe
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 07, 2017, 03:37:42 pm: Yes Joe, catching up on the period when the weather would not allow me to remove the trailer tent and work on the hull. She is about to get her first top coat of her main colour and the smaller details such as netting and storage areas can be done once the landing deck has been installed. Still have to work out how to get the hanger deck lifts cut out and installed with a view to showing the inside of the hanger deck when on display. Also the main flight deck centre section also need to be cut out for access or I may screw the whole flight deck down, not sure yet.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on May 07, 2017, 04:06:35 pm: Have you thought about having removable sections of deck replaced with thin Perspex sections for when on display, just a thought ok2

Joe
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 07, 2017, 08:23:58 pm: Firstly:

Cripes, she was more patch than plate looking at her bomb damage in the photo. No wonder the images were withheld. It shows how much damage they could take. I pity any crewmen down there working :((

Secondly, the detailing is going on lovely.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2017, 12:00:13 pm: Problem has now occurred when applying the top section of the hull with paint. I found after removing the masking tape, the styrene section of the armoured plating; the primer is not bonding to it. Every time I tried to patch, the pulled off section more comes away only larger areas each time. To me it looks like the styrene section is at fault. The whole hull was primed with the same primer and no problems with any other area other than the styrene sections. It is affecting all three paint areas above and below the water line. I am using a low tack masking tape, but for some reason the primer will not bond to it.

Can any one point me in the correct direction as to what I have done wrong.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on May 10, 2017, 03:24:01 pm: Hi Paul, I've always use Halfords grey primer with no problems even on styrene, I hesitate to state the obvious but was the surface of the styrene keyed up, if so, is it some sort of contamination on the surface, hope you get it sorted. {:-{

Joe
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2017, 03:36:42 pm: Hi Joe,
I too have used the same primer, and if you note from my earlier pictures you will see the whole hull fully primed last year, with no problem of bonding. When I painted the under side of the hull the styrene was ok and took the top coat of red which is also a red primer with no problem. Masked off the underside and pained the waterline with black mat paint, no problem. Then masked off the water line to paint the top of the hull and allowed to dry over 24 hours during the warm spell we had. Removed the masking tape and the water line came away in places. Masked off and painted the affected area. When removing the tape again larges areas as on the photo came away. I am lost. I did rub down the styrene with wet and dry when rubbing down the hull. I am at a loss here. Looks Like I will have to remove all the paint from the styrene sections. Wash with clear soap and then rub down again and mask off the areas and repaint. Was hoping to put the hull on display in the next few weeks and put her in the water.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Bob K on May 10, 2017, 03:54:32 pm: That is so sad Paul. She was looking so fantastic.

You did say styrene, so not sure if this is relevant. But with fibre glass hulls I have been advised to degrease the hull with mild soapy water, and gently abrade the surface with a fine scourer or very fine grit paper to key the surface before painting. I did omit to do that on one build and had some paint come off with the masking tape. Maybe if you cleaned and keyed-in the affected areas the paint will adhere better.

Just a thought.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2017, 04:05:13 pm: Hi Bob,

Thanks for the advice, and the compliment, the hull is all wood and then covered in fiber cloth. There are two sections of full length styrene bonded to the hull to represent the armored plating for anti torpedo protection. This was keyed and primed last year. then the top coat put on this year. I can only assume that the cold winter has caused the paint to harden and release from the styrene.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Bob K on May 10, 2017, 04:21:59 pm: Paul. I have been keeping up with your build construction from the beginning. It has been an impressive step by step build sequence. I don't know what to say, other than perhaps the mixture of materials could have been upset by temperature as you say.

Good luck. Hope you can repair it. (I know you will :-)))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on May 10, 2017, 04:59:54 pm: hi ya Paul

Where did you acquire the Styrene from? that you used on the hull. Did it come from the same source as the rest which you have been using on the other parts of your constructions.

The reason I am asking is a while ago I was given from Styrene (which was surplus to requirements from the industry I worked in :-) ) This particular Styrene was used for making signs up - one side of the surface of the Styrene had a waxy feel to it - even if you rubbed it down with wet n dry it still had this 'waxy feel' to it.

It would glue okay with Humbrol Polystyrene Glue but you couldn't get a very good painting surface on it - and - if you used Acrylic paint on it - the paint used to 'pool' into little blobs. I wonder if you have managed to come across some similar styrene?

What happens if you paint a bit of liquid poly over the surface, allow it to dry, will the paint stick to it then?

Just a thought :-)

John
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on May 10, 2017, 05:11:00 pm: As a thought purchase the same paint again. Rarely sometimes the top coat can react with the undercoat even though its compatible leading to instability and paint lift off. No idea why something to do with the batches perhaps.

My money is on some contamination of the original surface which meant the undercoat just didn't adhere as well as it should. Sometimes even the natural grease on your fingers can cause this - it could also have just been a bad batch of paint.

Very frustrating for you

Good luck

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2017, 05:27:21 pm: Hi John,

I had purchased the sheets of styrene (4 ft by 3 ft) from a company that use the same product to make its kits from. So I know its good stuff and is used in the making of models. The paint would go on with no problem and I feel this has something to do with the paint. I have been advised to use a primer that is used on plastics as this contains Zylene to eat into the surface. So as my top coat is a plastic primer made for plastic I will rub down the effective area for the top half of the hull on this section of styrene and see if it bonds without peeling off. If it does then I will clean off the underside section and prime with the same primer and then coat with the red primer. If all goes well will then hand paint the water line in mat black by hand. Once complete with coat by with satin lacquer to seal the paint work.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2017, 05:30:52 pm: Hi Geoff

I have used two different batches of the same base primer, so that could be the fact, but the main sections of the hull not covered with the styrene has painted ok and no problems. So I am going with the fault being the styrene and maybe it needs a different primer. Will await the test I am running to see if it works.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Korp1010 on May 10, 2017, 06:25:03 pm: Very much doubt this is the reason but more of an observation as I assume your using the green Frog tape in the picture when you say low tack? Personally I find this still too tacky for applying straight to model paint and always use the yellow Frog tape which is the same but really is low tack as it's meant for freshly plastered walls so may be worth a try.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 10, 2017, 08:55:37 pm: Hi Korp,

Yes I am using Frog tape and before that simple masking tape. The later weeped paint and was recommended to use Frog tape, but was not told any colour. It worked well on the main section of the hull but not on the Styrene. The paint came off in one go pulling the gray primer and the red primer off in one clear pull. So will try the styrene primer and see how it goes. Thanks for the information thow.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on May 10, 2017, 09:40:15 pm: Hi Paul. Sometimes, when you purchase plastic sheet, there is one side (the shiny side) that has a very fine film of clear plastic attached to it, designed to protect the surface from scratches. This stuff can be very hard to see and needs a bit of patience to find a corner to get a hold of, in order to remove it in one go. Sounds daft but it's just a possibility.

With regard to masking tape, when you have finished applying the last coat of paint, it is advisable to remove the tape after about 20 - 30 minutes i.e. while the paint is still "going off". Leaving it for 24 hrs would risk pulling the dried paint off (been there, done that). Also, when removing the masking tape, pull it back against itself. This also helps prevent unwanted paint removal.

Hope this helps in some way.

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 11, 2017, 05:30:07 pm: Have done the first side and all went well. Got hold of some yellow coloured frog tape, and used the other (Green) to pull off the old paint. Cleaned the who sheet, rub down with 600 wet and dry and then cleaned off with Meth. Now working on the other side and should be finished off on Friday. If so will then post new photo with her in her full coat of paint ready for the satin lacquer to be applied. This should help keep the paint safe from scratches.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Bob K on May 11, 2017, 06:08:31 pm: You are being very thorough in your treatment of the damaged paint areas. :-))

In my view, using satin varnish is more about protecting matt painted surfaces from dirt, finger marks, dirty pond water and rain, then protecting from scratches. Matt painted areas can be hard to keep clean after the ravages of outdoors usage. Satin varnish is both hard and easy to wipe clean.
A couple of very thin sprayed coats does the job and still keeps a semi matt finish.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on May 12, 2017, 09:18:18 am: With my models I always paint them in matt paints and only use a satin or matt varnish on the underwater section. With first sailings of ones pride and joy one is very nervous about any bumps or scratches but in reality its inevitable.

There is always a misjudgement or someone always looses control or looses attention and with a large model you just can't turn and get out of the way.

When the inevitable happens I just mask off a square panel and repaint the effected area. Yes the shade is often a little different and you can see the edge marks but this adds to realism and after a few weeks the paint typically dulls down the same.

For cleaning I use baby wipes, they are really excellent and remove any mess easily.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 14, 2017, 03:55:51 pm: All repair work completed and she has been kitted out with some of the detail which will be fully installed later. I now have to kit out all the minor decks and install them in position. once done the main flight deck and hangar deck will be worked on to install.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 14, 2017, 04:18:51 pm: full length shots of the bow to the stern and stern to the bos.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 14, 2017, 09:53:33 pm: It goes to show how busy a capital ship is. I am pleased that you cured your paint adhesion issues, as you have a good deal of fitting out to do which would be scuppered if you had to keep returning to tuch the paintwork up in large areas.

Lovely progress Paul.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 16, 2017, 12:22:00 pm: Question, for advice on what would be best for interior deck lighting? I have a set up of 6 LED running through a 12v circuit board with three of the LED wired into the Island bridges. The other three was for the two ship boat decks and one for the one of the small decks below the island. I could get another board made up to cover the Forward and aft quarter decks and include the 6 fore and aft decks. But was wondering if their was another way. Advice and being pointed in the direction of other equipment that could be used.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: crabbersnipe on May 16, 2017, 03:15:21 pm: :-)) :-)) :-)) Very impressive and truly looking the part....beautiful hull lines and the gun turrets really come into their own as they are fitted.
Keep sending pictures, am very interested in your build.

E
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on May 16, 2017, 03:23:20 pm: Hi Paul, I always use Nano Chips for model lighting they are tiny light chips that are very bright and have very little impact on the battery, they come with a resister already wired you simply wire them to a battery via a switch if you wish, they come in various colours or warm or bright white, you can virtually wire as many as you like though out the boat in the same principle as a house ring main, check them out at
www.smallscalelights.co.uk (http://www.smallscalelights.co.uk) run by Jennifer Smith, very good service and reasonably cheap, she dose LEDS of various sizes but I find the Nano Chips best because you can hide them in the boat and all you see is the light when switched on, she has got 12 volt ones, hope this helps.

Joe
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 16, 2017, 10:40:26 pm: Wowsers, they are miniscule :o You could install these in 1:700th scale models without taking much space up.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 23, 2017, 07:19:53 pm: Made a little more work on the hull and painted all the decks dark green. Also made up the port side forward deck and installed all the railing. Just need to install the lighting when I have finished off the running gear setup.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 23, 2017, 11:10:42 pm: I thought I would show how the port deck was constructed within the hull so that it did not take up too much room and would allow the hanger deck to be installed when being shown.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 23, 2017, 11:17:51 pm: Some photos of the outrigger decks having been painted dark green, which was the color she was painted in 1940
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Bob K on May 24, 2017, 08:52:15 am: This build is looking increasingly tasty as you progress Paul, showing considerable advance planning in the detail of its construction. Well done :-))

Every time I see the latest stage I can't help thinking of the eight (radio?) masts at the edges of the flight deck.
Surely the most potentially vulnerable detail assemblies ever to be incorporated on a model intended for sailing. I am sure you have a plan in mind. I will continue to follow this super build at every new phase you post.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 24, 2017, 05:44:13 pm: Starboard forward upper and lower decks now completed with all the work required to encase the decks ready for lighting. Much the same as Port side, with one exception. There is a small cabin to the rear of the lower starboard deck. Was planing to put that in, but found that I could not install and seal the deck with it in place due to lack of space. So left it out and do not think anyone will notice, just me.

I was wondering how to fit the four large search lights so they could rotate by hand and found the centre of each light base had a recess into which I cut down a 11 mm wood pole and then sanded down till level with the base of the light. Will bond the wood section to the deck and then place the searchlight onto it. This will hold it in place and allow for it to be rotated and removed when taking to the lake and shows.

I did the same with the 6 pom pom guns which I am painting at the moment. Each of them has a circle at the base. Measure the circumference and then using a compass marked out the circle and then cut with a fretsaw from 3 mm thick marine ply and then using my dremel made 6 perfectly circular mounts to which I can bond to the decks and Island and again they can been seen to rotate and remove for transporting.

Will post photos later when the guns and search lights are in place.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 29, 2017, 05:14:23 pm: Hi Bob K,

Thanks for your commons and much appreciated. There was lots of planing way back at the stage of marking out the ribs of the hull to take into account the outer decks, quarter and chain decks. It all paid off in the end. Not having to bond these deck to the inside of the hull and hope they stayed in place.
Regards
Paul
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 29, 2017, 05:24:24 pm: Quote from: radiojoe on May 16, 2017, 03:23:20 pm
Hi Paul, I always use Nano Chips for model lighting they are tiny light chips that are very bright and have very little impact on the battery, they come with a resister already wired you simply wire them to a battery via a switch if you wish, they come in various colours or warm or bright white, you can virtually wire as many as you like though out the boat in the same principle as a house ring main, check them out at
www.smallscalelights.co.uk (http://www.smallscalelights.co.uk) run by Jennifer Smith, very good service and reasonably cheap, she dose LEDS of various sizes but I find the Nano Chips best because you can hide them in the boat and all you see is the light when switched on, she has got 12 volt ones, hope this helps.

Joe

Have spoken to Jennifer and she advised that due to the length of the hull and the length of the power leads, that I should use them in groups and connect to a multi block and then run the main heavier battery power lead to each block. That way there is no damage to the lights. Also they are limited to the size of area they cover.

They are very bright for their size but it does depend a little on the model as if they're enclosed in a darkish space they'll look brighter than in an open area.As a rough guide she suggested 1 per 3 inch square, so if I had an area 3x3 inches with one in the centre it would be about right, but if it's an enclosed space inside the carrier you might only need 1 per 4 x 4inch square, depending on how bright it needs to be. They can get a bit too bright!She advised that I can always add more it you need to if you're using a connector block.

The cost was about £45.00 for around 20 + units. plus postage.

So putting my pennies away in my boat box for this item.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 29, 2017, 05:25:04 pm: Quote from: Paul Swainson on May 29, 2017, 05:24:24 pm

Have spoken to Jennifer and she advised that due to the length of the hull and the length of the power leads, that I should use them in groups and connect to a multi block and then run the main heavier battery power lead to each block. That way there is no damage to the lights. Also they are limited to the size of area they cover.

They are very bright for their size but it does depend a little on the model as if they're enclosed in a darkish space they'll look brighter than in an open area.As a rough guide she suggested 1 per 3 inch square, so if I had an area 3x3 inches with one in the centre it would be about right, but if it's an enclosed space inside the carrier you might only need 1 per 4 x 4inch square, depending on how bright it needs to be. They can get a bit too bright!She advised that I can always add more it you need to if you're using a connector block.

The cost was about £45.00 for around 20 + units. plus postage.

So putting my pennies away in my boat box for this item.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on May 29, 2017, 06:15:07 pm: Hi Paul Yes the connection method she describes is similar to the ring main method I suggested, I used nano chips on my springer's nav lights etc. and they show up well, the thing is you can hide them more easily than the larger LED's. hope they work out for you.

Joe.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 30, 2017, 05:48:45 pm: The last of the side decks completed and ready to be installed into the hull. That leaves me the quarter deck and the chain deck to do. Pom pom's are all painted and ready to be mounted on the finished model.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 30, 2017, 06:04:07 pm: Not much good with thread sizes, can anyone tell the thread size of the M2 linkage rods for the rudder servos. Is it a BA and what size so I can get a tap for mine as one end now has no thread.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Netleyned on May 30, 2017, 06:07:07 pm: M2 means 2 mm.Paul
Ned
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 30, 2017, 07:56:08 pm: Hi Paul,

You can buy an M2 die. Look on Ebay and you should find loads available for a reasonable price. I bought an M2 Tap set including Taper and second for a fiver IIRC. You may need to invest in a small die holder as well.

Your decks are looking fab by the way O0
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: JimG on May 30, 2017, 10:34:39 pm: You may not be able to cut a 2mm thread on the oher end of your linkage. Most commercial linkages use rolled threads and the unthreaded rod is a smaller diameter, too small for a die cut thread. Youy can buy solder on connectors to fit to the unthreaded end.
http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/M2-Metal-Solder-Extender-8-per-pkt-SL016C_S.html (http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/M2-Metal-Solder-Extender-8-per-pkt-SL016C_S.html)

Jim
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 05, 2017, 05:52:10 pm: Quote from: JimG on May 30, 2017, 10:34:39 pm
You may not be able to cut a 2mm thread on the oher end of your linkage. Most commercial linkages use rolled threads and the unthreaded rod is a smaller diameter, too small for a die cut thread. Youy can buy solder on connectors to fit to the unthreaded end.
http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/M2-Metal-Solder-Extender-8-per-pkt-SL016C_S.html (http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/M2-Metal-Solder-Extender-8-per-pkt-SL016C_S.html)

Jim

Hi Jim, Thanks for the info and have 8 of them now and fixed my problem. Many thanks for the info.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 05, 2017, 06:07:12 pm: Help!

Is there anyone out there ever build a working lift inside an Aircraft Carrier. I have positioned the lift so only one support stringer need to be cut to allow the lift to move through the frames. This required the moving of the entry a few mm to allow this. I first thought that I would run up four post with the curvature of the lift on the inside on each post and bond them to the under side of the flight deck, thus allowing the lift to move up and down with the four post frame. (supports will be made at the base to keep it straight and firm) I have made the supports to support the hanger deck so the lift come down level with the deck of the hanger.

I will leave a firm area around the lift and the flight deck section will be cut out and allow me to have two sections to fit in. One being made of clear perspex to allow the viewing of the flight deck and the aircraft inside the hanger when on display (Radio Joe's idea. Thanks Joe). The second with be the normal deck for when she is on the water and sailing.

My delamer is how do I make the lift work what type of frame would allow the unit to move up and down with a plane on board. Stuck here, I have read through the sheets of build ideas but have not found anything that I could work with.

So is there anyone with ideas that I could play with to see what works best.

Thanks in advance for any assistance or advice given.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 05, 2017, 06:23:32 pm: Finally finished off the ships boats and all painted ready to be installed. Have one more to do but have not found the right shell yet.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John R Haynes on June 05, 2017, 06:26:10 pm: On a project I used 4 long screwed rods , one on each corner with 4 captive receiving nuts under the platform.Rods captured top and bottom.
Micro switches were need to determine length of travel up and down. .Of course the rods will need turning by motor/s . This method worked years ago now so maybe in digital times there would be away to improve this
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 05, 2017, 06:32:02 pm: Here is the photo with the above deck installed and all looks well.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on June 05, 2017, 09:14:11 pm: That array of detail looks very well Paul. The screw and captured nut idea sould work well as long as the screw threads are absolutely parallel. Perhaps worked through a few times with some valve grinding paste just to loosen the threads up a bit before fitting everything together will reduce friction and possible distortion.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 06, 2017, 02:35:25 pm: On Hermes I used scissors action driven by one long threaded rod, positioning controlled by micro switches, worked a treat, very quiet and quite scale looking
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 06, 2017, 04:44:51 pm: Hi Rob,

Do you have photos and or drawings of the system you used. If so would like to see how it was done.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 06, 2017, 04:57:49 pm: Had a wee think and came up with this idea using the system of four shaped guide post one on each corner running down to a support platform below the level of the hanger deck. This would give the lift support on all corners. Grooved would suit and easy to shape from B&Q picture frame wood. The base of the lift would have a cross section made from copper or light alloy with a centre point holding a screw rod about 65 mm long. The distance of travel will allow the rod to fil in below the hanger deck and can be controlled using a nut with a groove cut to control the rod travel. ( I think) have to see if that will work. Simple drive motor with two limit switches.

Thats my first idea.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 06, 2017, 10:19:47 pm: Quote from: Paul Swainson on June 06, 2017, 04:44:51 pm
Hi Rob,

Do you have photos and or drawings of the system you used. If so would like to see how it was done.

Sadly no and she is long gone but will see if I can draw something for you, might be a bit rough though
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 07, 2017, 04:28:55 pm: Paul
Hope this makes sense, if not PM and I will give you my phone number and I can talk you through it. It basically was two H frames with a swivelling cross piece between each one, one had a support hole in it the other had a nut fixed to it Both frames ran in rails and when the motor powered up the shaft turned and either pushed the H frame away or drew it in.

(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n128/chieftain900/BristolC0003_1.jpg) (http://s111.photobucket.com/user/chieftain900/media/BristolC0003_1.jpg.html)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 07, 2017, 05:41:09 pm: Hi Rob,

Thanks for that and got the idea, will see how thinks go and will show how I get on. Once again thanks for the information.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on June 07, 2017, 11:47:52 pm: Paul............the Scissor Lift design suggested by Rob47 is essentially a design used in thousands of RO-RO vessels for movement of product [coils or slabs] between decks

With care & attention to scale robustness it would make an absolutely reliable/workable solution :-)) to your requirements

Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: warspite on June 08, 2017, 08:47:55 am: Just type images of scissor lift into any search engine and there will be countless number of images of these to help the design.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on June 08, 2017, 09:03:44 am: Correct me if I'm wrong but for a scissor lift don't you have to have a left and right hand thread to make it move truly vertical? Otherwise it will pivot about one axis. Its quite possible to purchase left hand taps and dies but they are not cheap but I agree the motion would be very good.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 08, 2017, 10:50:16 am: Geoff
You may be correct but in my configuration on Hermes (as sketched) it worked and no issues, it is only winding one of the H arms in or pushing it out so I don't see the need for left and right thread. Suffice to say it worked and all designed on a table in my room in the mess :}
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 08, 2017, 02:31:59 pm: Think this will do the job with just one layer of scissor with one gear on each screw rod driven by one centre gear cog connected to a motor. Would have to work our where to put the limiters on for top and bottom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEJzHizTYSU

Would make a compact set up.

Also found this picture but with a single screw. Not sure if it would be stable, may dip or be springy on either side if load not central.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on June 08, 2017, 02:48:58 pm: As an alternative you could consider a screwed rod on one side with a 90 degree support under the lift so turning the rod elevates the lift up and down with the sides running in guides. A micro switch top and bottom act as limiters. This would give a very direct vertical movement with no chance for misalignment.

Good luck

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 08, 2017, 08:36:46 pm: I have completed the lift cage which will mount on the support floor and have made the support beams and temp fitted the setup for height and position in the hull. The lift floor slides up and down without binding.

Question is there a method on how to work out the lengths of the scissor arms so that I can keep them within the the size of the cage! Understand the fixed rear scissor arm will be the same length as the lift floor. Is the other one shorter?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 08, 2017, 10:12:14 pm: mine were both the same length, also I may be wrong but in the image it looks as if the arm moves along the lift, mine were fixed to the underside, also as Geoff said I had micro switches as stops, no other support and it dropped into the well rather well, centralising on the lift should not be an issues as the plane will have to be central. Good luck Paul, your almost making want to build Hermes again, but Bristol to finish then HMS Gloucester 1/72
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 09, 2017, 06:09:15 pm: So when making the scissor arms each side is on a central pivot, the top arms are fixed to the under side of the lift frame. The lower arms of the scissor one side is fixed to the base and the other side is able to slide along guides each side. The drive screw when operated by the motor it will pull the scissor action together to raise and push to lower.

Do I really need two screws or one. If I used two screws can the be of the same right hand thread.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 10, 2017, 03:46:35 pm: Paul
as I said I used only one, do not see a need for two, it simply a bolt (long one) being screwed into then out of a nut, the idea was encompass the KISS principle and it seemed to work.

Bob
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on June 10, 2017, 09:58:01 pm: Paul......this is what I meant ......'with care & attention to scale robustness'

One main drive screw will work......two main drive screws has the potential for the lift floor to bind/skew/seize <*<

Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 12, 2017, 07:43:33 pm: Well make up of the scissor lift failed. The arms of the scissor was too long. I made them the same length as the left base but when connected up there was to much hight and offset the top platform to the front. If the next attempt does not work will go for the single screw as per my first plan.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on June 12, 2017, 08:15:32 pm: Hi there Paul

Have you thought of using the principle that the new old Ark Royal used to use? Form of a Y Fork Lift - the principle is quite simple, you could replace the hydraulic rams with threaded screw bar or you could use cable and a sale winch servo.

john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on June 12, 2017, 11:30:57 pm: Oh no shock horror there Bluebird %% .......[beautiful picture......all reminiscent of HMAS Melbourne]

Just imagine trying to replicate that hydraulic nightmare in mechanical linkages :o

We see opposing principal cylinders for the major lift, opposing secondary cylinders, 3 of 4 lowering cushion cylinders.....a bank of Fawcett Cristie hydraulic accumulators, a Filter Pall filterstand......a pump station, 3/4 of a ton of headache load sensing servo controlled valving all designed in theory to keep the platform level <:( ...... if a Loading Officer managed & misplaced the footing of a 3 ton Turbo Prop <*< Fighter

I think Paul is far better keeping the Y front for his jocks & maintaining an X frame with single screw platform lift {-)

Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 14, 2017, 05:01:38 pm: The second attempt was worked out on paper with detail measurements and the size of the left base would not allow a scale version of a scissor lift to work the arms would not work within the cage and the depth was not good either. So now making my first idea and will post photos of the build and working in the lift case, before installation. Just need to work our how to set up the drive motor and the limit switches.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on June 14, 2017, 11:04:58 pm: Morning Paul.......there are a number of considerations for limit switches in model structures.....

1. install the switching in the drive unit......+ accurate repeatable positioning, .... - difficult to attain in scale versions with the switching being relative to the pitch of the threaded hoist rod >>:-(

2. install the switching externally with the load as the switching interface.....+ easier to accurately limit of movement, ..... - can be difficult to disguise the equipment

The great image from bluebird shows 3 of 4 lowering hydraulic cushion cylinders from Ark Royal ......the hoist frame plate comes to rest on these 4 cylinders when fully retracted....they are also load sensing so each one sends a hydraulic signal to stop the main cylinders retracting any further

It would be pretty simple to install 2 micro switches [on the diagonals under the floor of the hoist frame plate] with small tubular extensions, their function replicates that of the original

Hoisting limits could be mounted in a similar manner under the main upper deck of the carrier

I am pretty sure hoisting & lowering could be achieved by using DPDT [double pole/double throw] limit switches, however I would stand back and ask a member knowledgeable in the Black Arts for confirmation

The image below from Ark Royal with one of the lowering hydraulic cushion cylinders shown [fully extended]....the rod spherical round landing pad is also seen in the rod closer to the camera

Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on June 15, 2017, 08:18:23 am: Hi Derek

partially correct - the 4 hydraulic rams at each corner are there to give initial lift to help the main hydraulic rams when they first start the lift from the ground position - the sensors for up and down are actually on the edge of the lift platform. Here is a better picture.
john
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 19, 2017, 07:40:30 pm: The forward lift cage has been made and positioned in the hull with the lower deck supports in place to obtain the lift height.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 19, 2017, 07:46:55 pm: First set up for the lift platform which did not work. I had even gut two slide grooves for the end sections top and bottom of the lift to slide but it was not going to work.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 19, 2017, 07:56:41 pm: So now working on the plan I drew up earlier the only change is I will replace the bolt with a 4mm square center point and attached to it a 100 mm rack which will then be pulled down or pushed up by a pinion attached to a drive motor with top and bottom stops fitted will post photos when the rack and pinion arrive and has been fitted. The reason for the change from the 6 mm bolt as in the photos is that the pinion teeth will not mess with the bolt with out jumping.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 23, 2017, 04:13:57 pm: Took Lusty down to the pond and carried out a water line test and make sure there was no water leaks. She floats fine and the weight I put in is about right as I still have the two 12v 7 amp dry cell batteries to install and the deck with all the aircraft and the island. If I need any more weight I can install some lead flashing to finisher her off. Photo of her on the pond to come when I remove them from my phone SD card.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 23, 2017, 04:56:51 pm: Here are the photos of the test.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 23, 2017, 05:49:05 pm: Paul why could you not make the scissors lift work?

Bob
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on June 23, 2017, 06:02:03 pm: Looks good on the water Paul, always amazes me how much smaller they look when afloat. good work mate. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: John W E on June 23, 2017, 06:06:55 pm: hi there

Joe when you look at the earlier pics when building the hull in the garage - it looks absolutely huge - and you think how is he going to carry that. When you see it on the water though, it looks very deceiving the size. Looks a lovely model. Cant wait to see it finished. I like where he is sailing it - Scottish Maritime Museum? I think it is anyway.

John
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 23, 2017, 06:09:02 pm: For the lift to go up from the down position the scissor action would need to end up flush with the base platform and the lift platform. When up and level with the flight deck the scissor would need to be fully extended and the height required made the scissor legs too long as per the last photo. They would not retract and be flush with the base platform and the lift platform. (just like a collapsed cloths drier would when closed or opened.) If made shorter they would lift the lift up but to low and not level with the deck. Also the left twisted in the frame housing. each adjacent scissor arm was fixed and the opposite side arms were on a roller system to the top left moved in along with the bottom right moving in under control of the drive motor screw. The top right was fixed point and the bottom left was a fixed point. Each set of arms moved on there own axis. Just like the same lift in the photos I found and posted.

The way I am going now is a 5 mm square section of wood is replacing the coach bolt. I have a 100 mm of rack attached to this square section of wood which runs through the lift floor and the drive motor is positioned below the floor and the pinion is matched to the rack and runs by pulling the lift down and hits the stop limit and when raising stops when that limit switch is reached. The rack and pinion gear arrived today. The pinion will fit the 2 mm Diam shaft motor I am using and the motor is mounted under the floor of the lift shaft floor. Limit switch top and bottom of the floor. If it works will post details on here for others to work too if they want.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 23, 2017, 06:17:49 pm: Thanks Joe praise indeed from the teacher.

She looks small but she is not when she is measured from bow to stern she is 240 CM long and is a fair weight to lift. The water line should go down further when the batteries are in all the guns and aircraft and then the island. So a wee while yet, as I am just finishing off the quarter deck being kitted out and then once done will will install that deck. The I have the chain deck to kit out and install along with the anchors. Then the hull requires all the port holds to be mapped out and then fitted. Will then do a second water test with the all the running gear in fitted and test the system in the water. Have dry tested the motors and they run like a dream very quiet and will give her the affected to scale speed.

The pond is the Irvine Scottish Maritime Museum.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 23, 2017, 06:21:53 pm: There are larger and more detail photos here which you can enlarge without distortion. https://www.flickr.com/photos/92998762@N02/35319670992/in/dateposted-public/
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on June 23, 2017, 06:40:07 pm: Ho I know she's a monster Paul, but even the cruise liners coming down Spithead look small compered to at the docks until one of the Isle-of-Wight ferries pass close to one of the liners then you see the size ok. %%
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on June 23, 2017, 08:56:39 pm: It is great to see her afloat after all your original dissapointments with the original hull and then the efforts taken to build the new one up to now when she is well on the way.

She looks lovely Paul.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on June 24, 2017, 10:25:40 am: Thanks for reply Paul, guess I must have just got it right for my scissors lift, which is why I suggested it. My lift went from flush to flight deck to a level equating the hangar, so in actual fact no a lot of travel involved. going to have a bash if time allows today( uniforms to sort for armed forces parade tomorrow) and see if I can replicate it. god luck with the version you are working on. yes she looks good on the water, always a satisfying moment

Bob
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 28, 2017, 03:17:43 pm: Your welcome Bob, I await to see your build and take lessons as necessary. I have made the rack to replace the steel bolt and fitted it to the under side of the lift. Made adjustments to the base floor of the lift so that the rack can pass through and the base will be fixed to the lift shaft. It will hold the drive motor underneath, with on off switches to be marked and fitted.

I am looking for a good supplier of small 12 v motors with gearing attached to reduce the speed to a nice slow movement up and down. Anyone know of a good supplier to who I can give the specifications of my pinion and rack.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 28, 2017, 03:28:46 pm: Have completed the chain deck and kitted out this deck with the 4 x 6 lbs guns, lockers, reels anchor chains and capstan along with bollards etc. Also the first of the front searchlight platforms has been railed and light fitted, along with ladders and door. Once the portholes have been fitted she will really look the part. She goes on display at the local Maritime Museum on the 21/22/23 of July. So looking forward to the comments from the people who want to see her.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Capt Podge on June 28, 2017, 10:00:22 pm: Quote from: Paul Swainson on June 28, 2017, 03:17:43 pm
I am looking for a good supplier of small 12 v motors with gearing attached to reduce the speed to a nice slow movement up and down. Anyone know of a good supplier to who I can give the specifications of my pinion and rack.

Hi Paul, the first one that comes to mind is; www.mfacomodrills.com/contact.html
You could give them a ring to discuss your requirements and / or e-mail some of your photographs to them as a visual aid.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Ray.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on June 28, 2017, 10:34:39 pm: What on earth are they doing shipping 6pounders for? They make good saluting guns I suppose. They do make a nice detail addition though, and like the efforts you have made in painting the capstans etc.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 29, 2017, 02:22:40 pm: Thanks Ray, I have emailed them and sent some photos and details, will wait and see what they come up with. As for the 6 pounders have another 6 in my spares locker incase they can be used on others. I feel the chanin deck will be ok when lighting is fitted in this area.

While I wait for the drive motor for the lift working on how to insert the hanger sect of deck to house the plains stored below to be view when on display. The deck does not need to be there when she is being sailed. Think a dove tail joints may be the answer. Back to the drawing board.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 07, 2017, 03:08:29 pm: Quarter deck is now ready to be kitted out have installed the railings. Difficult job to fit around each of the supports in the quarter deck and then be able to slide the deck in ready to be bonded in place.

Also started on the last deck to be made which is the lower level of carley floats. difficult to work out how they are mounted and the only photo I have does not give much detail. The ship's plans of each of the hull sections cuts does not help either.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 20, 2017, 10:57:26 pm: Had a lot of work to do to get her ready for this weekend show. The quarter deck fitted out and installed. Lift section fitted and ready for the flight deck. Cut the rear section first and made cut outs for the rudder and the drive motors. secured and trim. The forward section then cut and a larger opening for the electrics and the lift. Finally placed the mount for the island to sit on so it can be removed and refitted in the same place. Wiring for lighting on the island run through to the under side and ready to wire up. Final gave the island its top coat and fitted all the port hole covers. Even had time to mount the shop boats with lowering chains from the booms. Trial fit of all pom pom, HA fire control units and all searchlights. She looks great. Will take more photos at the show and a video and put it on Flickr. Hope you like.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on July 21, 2017, 08:44:37 am: Oh she is becoming an elegant ship Paul. I like the HA directors :-))

Forgive me for asking (as you may well have put pictures up before) but are the directors scratch built or purchased? They are very nice, my Penelope needs two eventually.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 21, 2017, 01:05:15 pm: Yes the HA detectors was obtained from John Haynes also if you want them displayed as completely covered the Dean Marine do one too.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on July 21, 2017, 07:55:46 pm: I will get the haynes ones and then make partially open ones to get the best of both worlds, a bit of pretty and a bit of a challenge making the frames of the cover :}
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 24, 2017, 08:21:35 pm: Here is the link to the model on display at the Irvine Maritime Museum on the 22/7/2017.

https://youtu.be/0B2siOJAhZU

Also link to photos.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/92998762@N02/albums/72157686616807116
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on July 25, 2017, 03:45:49 pm: Paul did you get my message about lifts and where to look?

Bob
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on July 25, 2017, 05:10:40 pm: I have now replied to your message. Thanks :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 24, 2017, 05:27:19 pm: Sorry for the quiet spell but been working out how best to install the carley floats to the side of the hull. First two attempts/ideas have failed and now seem to have got the correct way on this build. I have cut a one piece of 2mm styrene to cover the full length of the walkway around the island up to the 8 barrel pom pom aft of the island. This section of styrene also included enough depth down the side of the hull to mount the 12 carley floats the same way as I mounted the floats to the side of the island. The section had to have cuts made to that I could reduce to the area I needed with the end sections heated to form the curves at each end of this section. A small platform was made from 2mm ply to hold the fixing points for the bottom of the floats. Small cuts 3mm long and 1mm wide was made in the side walk way to hold the top cables for the securing straps of each carley. Hope the photos show the idea.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 24, 2017, 08:51:11 pm: The detailing can be a labour of love can't it. I like the straps :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on August 25, 2017, 12:22:36 pm: Then pleasure is that when the main structure of the model looks the part i.e. the hull shape or the superstructure of the ship is quite standard. The eye of the person looking at the model will be drawn to the detail you put into the build to create and finish off the model. The more effort you put into making it look real with the detail the more people will explore with your eye, take in what you have created. I hope with the size of this model and the detail I intend to put in will please many people to explore with their eyes and hopefully take up the hobby and expand their own skills as I have. O0
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on August 25, 2017, 08:09:03 pm: So do I Paul. I want to see more people involved in all creative/ hisorical based hobbies young and old. We have a couple young members at Yeovil MWA which is good.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 23, 2017, 12:36:26 pm: Just to let you know I have finished the poppy appeal and about to go and visit my family on Oz and celebrate my 50th wedding anniversary in the new year. So will get back to my build in 2018 and continue the work. All the best to everyone, have a great Christmas with all your family about and a happy New Year when it come.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: radiojoe on November 23, 2017, 05:49:31 pm: Yeah have a good trip to Oz Paul and all the best for Christmas and new year, :-))

Joe.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on November 23, 2017, 09:00:54 pm: Good for you Paul, have good one and a great time in Australia.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: raflaunches on November 23, 2017, 10:29:40 pm: Hear Hear, you have certainly earned it Paul. Have a great time in Oz and we'll see you in the New Year. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: derekwarner on November 24, 2017, 12:47:15 am: {-) ...& I thought it was only our Convict forebears that celebrated with a 3 month sail to OZ O0

Hope we can turn some fine weather on for you Paul.......may we ask?... which State in OZ you will be attending

Looking forward to your continuing build in 2018........... Derek
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 24, 2017, 12:10:32 pm: Hi Derek, Will be stopping off in New Zealand for a week (North Island) then flying to NSW to an area just north of Sydney Warnervale area. Yes looking forward to completing the installation of the electrics, painting and lining the flight deck. The first job will then be to complete the carley float mountings under the island. Then the aerials and all the detail that goes around the sides of the flight deck. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on November 24, 2017, 01:51:45 pm: If you are still looking for lift solutions may I suggest a single threaded rod at one end. If a threaded lug is fixed to the rod and base of the lift and the rod rotated the lug will go up and down on the screw thread.

Interesting build

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 24, 2017, 04:02:52 pm: Thanks everyone for your good wishes and I trust you will enjoy the festive season.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on January 14, 2018, 01:19:21 pm: Paul shots of my scissors working lift from Victorious

Bob

http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/8d3x5 (http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/8d3x5)
http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/8dyOP (http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/8dyOP)
http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/8dP19 (http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/image/8dP19)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Rob47 on January 14, 2018, 04:28:01 pm: Paul

Having got my head around the new image posting system, here they again

Bob

(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/01/14/IMG_3039f41b600e56590c32.jpg)
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/01/14/IMG_3033d27264b7eb5cd697.jpg)
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/01/14/IMG_3038821eb85f6efa74e1.jpg)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on January 30, 2018, 05:16:09 pm: Well hope everyone had a great Christmas and a Happy New Year. Sorry I could not bring the sun and heat back from down under. So I am now back to working in the cold, but the small heater is working over time. Will not be bonding at this time so maybe painting the flight deck would be a good start.

Thanks fr the information and the photos of the lift system you used will look at mine again.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Geoff on January 30, 2018, 05:41:29 pm: Don't forget to use sanding sealer (if the deck is wooden) as it makes a huge difference to the paint finish and hides the grain.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 28, 2018, 10:12:05 pm: Sorry for the long delay in returning to my build but have been involved with a 1/84 build of HMS Victory for a 95 year old gent who died and did not complete the model. So as I have took on the model to complete it for his two sons and the children.

I have now after some long detail nights bonded the carley floats to the flight deck and bonded the mounting bracket to the the hull and the deck. As there was four different surfaces and to be careful what bonding agent I needed to use. Well it is on and the pictures show the full detail of the work completed showing all the floats in place.

The flight deck has been painted a lighter sea gray so the she would blend in with the water. One coat so far. The next build project will be the main island forward 6 barrel pom poms and the ammunition racks and mounting platforms. Then the 8 radio mast have to work out what material to use and how to cut them out.

There is a short video here of the whole ship with a quick look into the drive motors mounting.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/92998762@N02/27546527797/in/album-72157640833731444/
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on May 28, 2018, 10:20:28 pm: Quote from: Rob47 on January 14, 2018, 04:28:01 pm
Paul

Having got my head around the new image posting system, here they again

Bob

Hi Bob, that lift looks much simpler then the one I was trying to build. Will see if I can get hold of the square box sections of polystyrene

Paul

(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/01/14/IMG_3039f41b600e56590c32.jpg)
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/01/14/IMG_3033d27264b7eb5cd697.jpg)
(http://modelboatmayhemimages.co.uk/images/2018/01/14/IMG_3038821eb85f6efa74e1.jpg)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on May 28, 2018, 10:49:42 pm: Crikey, those motors are brutes!

Re Pom poms, did you mean 6 barrel or eight Paul? I ask because I could not find any 6 barrel mounts and would not want you to have made the effort to make such a thing and then find they don't exist %%

It is good to see you back in the workshop and having got her a bit nearer completion :-))
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on June 25, 2018, 08:33:00 pm: Yes I did mean 8 barrel pom poms, Working out the fixture required to mount the second unit in the island superstructure so that the island can be removed leaving behind the pom pom set up. See attach photo.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/92998762@N02/14591745381/in/album-72157645556911264/

You can zoom in to see the problem I am having to secure the leading edge of the front of the island curved screening.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on June 25, 2018, 09:28:46 pm: It all looks fabulously complex and attractive. That area looks like a challenge doesn't it! Is the cylinder underneath the pompom the expansion tank for cooling water?
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on September 02, 2019, 01:23:42 pm: Sorry for the long break but have been helping a family complete a model of HMS Victory and it has taken a while. Have pained the landing deck and place her in storage ready to more work. Still have to work on the lift which is work in progress. But due to return to my build.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: frogman3 on November 12, 2019, 09:32:38 am: Quote from: Paul Swainson on September 02, 2019, 01:23:42 pm
Sorry for the long break but have been helping a family complete a model of HMS Victory and it has taken a while. Have pained the landing deck and place her in storage ready to more work. Still have to work on the lift which is work in progress. But due to return to my build.

HI is anything happening now on this build ?
chris
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 15, 2019, 12:14:25 am: Yes the flight deck has been fitted and painted and now working on the Radio masts all eight of them. Trying plastic if not will need to find some other materials.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: frogman3 on November 15, 2019, 08:50:17 am: HI what radio masts could we see a pic please
chris
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 20, 2019, 05:39:38 pm: The scale is 1/94 photo attached. The hight from the base legs to the top if the picture is 13 cm (130mm) the base is 1 cm (10mm)
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: frogman3 on November 20, 2019, 06:13:52 pm: HI yes I see now are they brass ?
chris
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 20, 2019, 10:16:35 pm: if I could get them etched in copper or brass would be good. Tried to cut them in 0.5 and 1.0 mm plastic sheets, but the quality was poor. So trying to find someone who can etch them for me.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: ballastanksian on April 01, 2020, 08:22:33 pm: PPD
https://www.ppdltd.com or https://www.graingeandhodder.co.uk
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do brass etching for a price.
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Then there is 4D Models in London town.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 08, 2020, 02:33:44 pm: Will need help from anyone who can convert the BMP file to a CAD drawing as I do not have access to CAD
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 08, 2020, 02:53:08 pm: Some photos of the some work carried out so far. have some more of the island
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 08, 2020, 03:03:22 pm: More work done on the island with the sea bridge.
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Dean's Marine on April 08, 2020, 03:09:05 pm: Quote from: Paul Swainson on November 20, 2019, 10:16:35 pm
if I could get them etched in copper or brass would be good. Tried to cut them in 0.5 and 1.0 mm plastic sheets, but the quality was poor. So trying to find someone who can etch them for me.
ask Deans Marine they have them etched in steel ? part of the Illustrious semi kit fittings
Title: Re: HMS Illustrious 87
Post by: Paul Swainson on April 08, 2020, 03:23:16 pm: Spoken with Ron, there not in stock and will need to be ordered when he next puts in an order for etching parts, thanks for the info.