Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: red181 on June 10, 2014, 09:42:08 pm
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After asking for a tx and rx in the wanted section, it seems I need a lot of help, so I have started this thread :embarrassed:
Ok, I have a nice model of the Jaws boat "Orca". It has sound unit, smoke unit, nav and cabin lights, and so on. I've had it for a number of years, and only really sail it once or twice a year, as its not really my sort of boat, but I do like it and wanted to do more with it. I fly helis, fixed wing, and do boats, submarines are an rc discipline I don't know, so thought it would be a good fun project, something different, but its proving to be more of a problem than I expected, but now I have started, I would like to see it through, its now I know I need help! so here goes :-))
I looked for some time 12 months ago for a cheap way of converting a rc sub into a dorsal fin. I wanted it to submerge the height of the fin, go forwards and turn, and be able to sail at a slightly below waterline so the fin and top of hull was evident. After trying numerous toys, and searching endlessly for something pre built but cheap, I was lucky enough to have donated by Rich (U33) the two halves of the MMB Subsonic. August 2013 I picked up from MMB the parts kit, and last month finally started the project, with absolutely no Submarine experience.
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so, the build was quite easy, using the dvd provided, pictures tell a story and this made it quite easy. Everything went together quickly, the delays caused by having to wait for epoxy to cure. I wanted this to be cheap, as it was something of an experiment, if it all works, I can then convert to better components.
First problem, all the brushed motors where thrown away ages ago as I use brushless in all my rc models, I neede a esc, and I have lost count of all the 27 and 40meg gear that I got rid of, all my stuff is 2.4!
I managed to scrounge a motor and esc, but had to buy second hand tx and rx.Futaba FP-T6NL tx and Futaba FP-R103F rx with crystals bought as a pair, I thought this would be fine
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First of all, I realised after the purchase the tx is mode 1 throttle on right, not a biggie, I can get over this. So all installed in the wtc and a water test in the bath, no leaks! Battery in and a bath test for ballast, now it leaks :((
After a lot of trial bath tests, it would seem there is a real small drip but I cant locate the source, although its motor end. I tried a film of bathroom sealant, thinking the motor end cap once on will never haver to come off, this seems to have worked. I have noticed the battery removal and refit, although appears to be in the same place, seems to alter the ballast every time, some times the hull leans over, which is a real pain, but I am sure practise will make perfect.
I tried to set the rear planes level, but the adjustment of the servo links is so difficult as half of it is inside the sealed wtc, and I keep having to take it apart to adjust. I fitted the servo rod links provided on the furthest out horn holes to be adjusted later. The tx has subtrim and endpoint adjustments so this should come in handy later
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Did I range test prior to final fit........................NO >>:-(
Off to the local lake feeling confident, but a few feet away I get all strange cliches, and a wide open throttle, and then nothing, and I am standing downwind, so have to wait ages for it to float in, luckily, it does float! Should have done the range test {:-{
An hour of fiddling, and its back home. Now I am thinking should the aerial wire be outside the WTC, so I do that through a small hole, sealed with cyno. Back to the lake, its still the same, no range. I am able this time to try things close to the bank, and its not great :(( slow speed (very slow!) it seems to sail reasonably level, and at the right depth, anything above 1/3 throttle and it dives at 45 degrees, and the angle of the planes does not seem to have any effect, holing full up elevator it still wants to dive. I tried some extra ballast in the nose, but now the tail is heavy.
After a lot of messing around, in a sudden spark of imagination, I decided to fit the rx, esc and use the tx in a rc boat to see what range I have above the water line, and to my horror, its only two meters, so after all that I have a rx/tx problem <:(
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After posting on the wanted section this week asking for another 40 or 27meg tx and or rx, I have been advised that corona rx are compatible. I suspect the rx is faulty as the aerial has been meddled with, something I didn't see at first, and its pretty obvious, the colour of the wire changes! :embarrassed:
I now have to wait to get this problem sorted, just about to order a synthesised corona 40meg rx which hopefully will work with the tx. This time I will range test in the boat first. Whilst I wait, any help advise would be appreciated, particularly with the diving problem, and ballast.
Here you can see the idea, I have not yet worked out how I am going to control the shark and Orca, maybe someone in the Wirral area would like to help! By the way, for any New Brighton members, that is where I tested, I did a great job of scraping the weed up from the lake bed!
Thanks
Paul
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I have had to use some "modellers license" with the scale of the shark, its obviously too long, but it does not really matter, its the fins that matter, these too have had to be overscale compared to the boat, otherwise you cannot see it on a relatively small lake.
Its quite unnerving having something that disappears under the water, how do you sub boys cope when its a lot of money going out of sight! :o
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I remember Ron Perrot once said in either, mmi or model boats magazine, the second best feeling known to man is seeing your new model submarine surface!
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What sort (if any) of control surfaces are you using to control the attitude of the boat?
Regarding the leaking, I would carefully check the fit of the endcaps to the tubing. I received an MMB sub sonic tube, and the end caps had visible air gaps between the cylinder wall and the o-ring.
There are three ways around this, machine some new endcaps; best but difficult without a lathe. Fit a thicker o-ring, the standard items are 3mm thick, you could try some 1/8" thick o-rings (3.17mm). Or add some bulk to the groove by removing the o-ring and running some thin cyano around the bottom of the groove or packing out with PTFE plumbers tape.
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Hi Subculture, I think the o ring is now sealed using a thin film of bathroom sealant. With regard to control surfaces, do you mean the two rear planes? if so, that is all, the front planes are static, and have not been fitted as yet, didn't see the point in them, unless you can tell me otherwise. I thought the reap planes, acting like elevators on a plane would have the desired effect, It must just need trimming, any advise appreciated
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Silicone caulking is a bit fragile, don't be too surprised if the the leaks reappear at some point.
It sounds like you're using the standard subsonic dive planes- I thought perhaps you might be using something more shark like. The issue may be that you are porpoising near the surface, which is common problem for model subs when they operate at anything past a snails pace. A leveller should sort out these issues. Make sure your rear plane linkages are slop free.
You may also want to consider actuating the front planes in addition to the rear and having the rear planes controlled automatically by the leveller. This should make the shark rise and dive in a very controlled way.
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Just a thought, Red...you might be interested to learn that my buddy Andy (username 'tattooed' on here) is about to start making a prototype for shark kit. It's going to be one or two steps up from basic, it will be capable of submerging/surfacing at your command, but it won't be loaded with electronic aids. I don't know how far he's got with it, he's been a busy boy at work recently, but knowing Andy as I do, it will be good when it's done. It may well be worth your while sending him a pm (tell him I sent you) and having a chat to him.
It's not going to be a vast manufacturing job (Andy works out of his spare bedroom) but it's just something he's wanted to do for a while now...we've had several long chats on the phone about it over the last few months.
Rich
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Sounds fishy :}
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"groans loudly..."
Rich
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Post office say I have a parcel to be collected, so tomoz should have the rx so its back to the lake. I was wondering how much travel (deflection) I should be looking for with the rear planes? What attitude as a starting point should they be at, I was thinking level, but not sure now.
I was thinking of doing it in bite size chunks, lets get it sailing above the water and go from there. I here you subsonic, but I am really trying to avoid over complicating things (believe me, making the front planes move is overcomplicating!) so should I fit the front planes as static none moving, will they help or hinder?
Have you got a link to a leveller and will it achieve anything in this very basic project
I will be interested in the developments of Andys project Rich, sorry for all the questions, don't get much time off work so need to be well prepared when next visiting lake! :-))
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I have now matched the receiver to tx, a bit fiddly, but its now done, 8 ch synthesised for £15, its unlocked another couple of channels on the tx, so that is a bonus! Everything is now reinstalled in the subsonic, batts charged, no I didn't do a range test in the boat first, too impatient! :embarrassed:
No slop in linkages, and a small amount of up attitude on rear planes, I hope this will help in surface running, that is todays task as I am off work.
Now, should I fit the static front planes, do they do anything? and the aerial wire, its very long, should this come out of the wtc via a sealed pin hole, or stay inside the wtc? If so, I assume you cant coil it so does it just float around inside?
Thanks
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Aerial wire is a pain in the proverbial...I confess in all but one of my subs I've just scrunched it up and stuffed it anywhere out of the way. The X craft did get a 'comb' I made to wrap the wire around, but it broke in the end... The choice is yours really what you do with it.
Front planes...if you make them operational from the tx, they will control your depth, then fit a leveller to the rear planes and that will keep the boat level at whatever depth to choose to sail at.
Rich
(PS...did you contact Andy?)
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Try it inside the tube, if you experience range issues, then run it through a gland into the wet. Make sure you put a dab of araldite on the end of the aerial wire to stop water working its way up the insulation.
For a leveller try microgyros.com
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Yeah Andy and I spoke Rich, thanks :-)) he is looking in from a distance, the problem is, I am best part of £100 in with the subsonic, £30 tx, now £20 corona rx, and a few other bits and bobs, and today was a disaster! <:(
Range issue, still only 6 feet or so, so looks like the tx is a problem. A tried some surface running close to bank, anything over a snail pace and it wants to dive, even with a degree of up elevator on the rear planes, so couldn't even manage a surface run. I tried fitting the static front planes, it helped, and looked better, made it more stable. I have a long way to go here, as pulling the wtc out at lake side isnt ideal. I have nowhere near enough travel on either planes, or rudder. Don't have any more room in wtc to extend servo horns, so will have to cobble something up on the planes to give more travel. I was thinking of making the rudder and planes bigger, and fabricating a linkage from front to rear planers so all 4 work, thinking this might help with surface running.
Its going to be too big a job operating front planes from the servos in the wtc, I would have to buy a new endcap, rods, tubes and seals, then the linkages would run past the battery, which itself will cause problems on battery removal for charging.
I removed all electrics from sub, fitted to a boat, like I should have done in the first place, back to lake, and its got very poor range, so must be the tx. Tried fresh batts in tx, and tried different channels with throttle in case the tx pots where bad, still the same, looks like its another purchase, another tx >:-o. This cheap "fun" project is now becoming a chore!
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Oh my gawd, Paul...it doesn't sound good. I won't tell you that I binned a couple of old 27mhz radios a couple of weeks back.... :embarrassed:
I reckon you'd be better off sorting out the radio problems first before worrying about the way the boat behaves, at least you'll have one problem out of the way. Perhaps you should settle for a shark that just follows your Orca at perisc...sorry, dorsal fin depth. One thought does occur to me...if you were to fit a cheap 2.4ghz radio, the shark would only dive to a depth of a few inches before the radio loses signal, and pops up again. If you watch a shark in the water, they do behave like that a lot of the time. Ebay has loads of cheapie 2.4 radios for less than £20...might be worth a thought?
Rich
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Don't think that will work. You need to persevere with 40mhz.
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It would make the shark look more realistic though.
Rich
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If you think it is the TX, then I would have alook inside the set. I have some familiarity with that set, as my Dad owns the same model, and I converted it to 2.4ghz for him.
It's a fairly straightforward analogue unit, the tuner board blugs into the encoder board, and I would be inclined to check the wire feeding to the aerial, making sure it's intact and well attached to both the board and the aerial. Would also check the connector between tunign board and encoder, and also check that the set isn't suffering from dreaded black wire.
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Tx looks ok inside. Nothing amiss. I have a couple of cheap 2.4 sets so could give one try. I only want to go to height of fin in depth but expect that too be deep enough to loose signal. I might have
a levelled on the way from another mayhemer so if it is how am I going to transfer control rods from back to front im not sure how a leveller works? Is it mechanically attached to the rear planes? Can I just run linkages from rear to front?
Thanks
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The leveller sits between the servo and the receiver. I'll have a look in the shed, might have a 40 txt you can have as well
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I have an idea that this ''cheap and simple RC sub/dorsal fin project'' has exceeded it's title.... :embarrassed:
Rich
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My "cheap" robbe sea wolf kit (80 quid off a member of this site) stands me at over 400.... Not including the tx and servos
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Cost will always ratchet up quickly if you have to buy in submarine specific items, especially hardware. Subs only remain relatively inexpensive if you can make the majority of items yourself, and then that only applies if you really know what you're doing.
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And don't I know it!
Poor old Paul, only wanted to tow a shark behind his Orca...he must have spent a fortune by now!
Rich
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And don't I know it!
Poor old Paul, only wanted to tow a shark behind his Orca...he must have spent a fortune by now!
Rich
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Rubber-Great-White-Shark-Squeaky/dp/B00IN4GJ6O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403294695&sr=8-1&keywords=rubber+shark
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as usual Rich, rc stuff suck the wallet dry {:-{
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Looking at the first post in this thread, it looks to me like you don't really require a submarine, but more a model boat with a very low waterline.
Therefore an old 2-channel 27mhz set will probably, suffice. Remove all the hydroplanes, and mount any lead ballast in a keel as low as you can go. This will stabilize the boat very well.
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no toys thanks peeps, I have done the towing thing, and its rubbish, the "fin" has to operate as a stand alone rc unit, diving to the depth of the fin, so going underwater away from sight, and capable of turning, otherwise its not worth bothering with, then it can "sail" in its own right. It cant be that difficult to do this ! I am sure I will get there, but still waiting for a tx to turn up from somewhere, reluctant to buy from an unknown source on ebay as I will probably end up with another useless tx!
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I'll give 10/10 for determination, Paul, and that's for sure. I may have a two channel tx/rx on 27mhz coming next week, but that's not a lot of good to you. I'll have a look round and see what I can come up with for you, there must be something floating about for a reasonable price somewhere.
Rich
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I WILL beat this, some time soon, you will see a video of the boat, with the fin circling, and Quint recanting his tale of the USS Indianapollis, quite a movie milestone, and very political at the time (you need to know the Jaws film to get this!)
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Well I have now glass clothed the fins, every time I fiddled with it one fell off, but the transmitter remains elusive, so I have listed some junk on ebay to try and raise some cash to buy a new one! :}
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I have a complete new in box Multiplex Pico line set. Comes with two servos and rx, although it'll work just fine with the Corona rx too.
Nice no frills little set
Only ever been out of the box to give the batteries a charge. £50 plus postage.
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Hi Red181,
I know and love (+ terrified by!) the film well. What was the significance of his speech about the USS Indianapolis? Was the atom bomb part of the significance?
Good luck with a difficult project.
David
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Paul, if you can manage with a Futaba 2 channel radio, I have one here which you are more than welcome to. It's an old Medallion 27mHz, 2 channel transmitter and receiver, plus a set of yellow crystals...it works perfectly well.
Rich
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sub
Thanks for the offer, I have some stuff listed as of yesterday on the bay to generate funds, I will have to see how they go
Rich
cheers mate, you come to the rescue again, bhut I need 3 channel for throttle, rudder and planes, many thanks for offer though!
Davy
The speech about the Indianapolis was quite controversial back in the 70's, and it went somewhat unnoticed at the time of the film, sort of under the radar. When building the Orca, I found a website devoted to the Orca, and the shark that was nicknamed Bruce. It was very informative, and had a very active forum, with pictures that never made the film, plus a load of other info. The idesa was to create funds to rebuild the wreck of the Orca that had been found, with other props. The hope was that another film would appear, but obviously better than the dreadful films that followed the original. I even got the original paint codes from Universal pictures via this website, unfortunately I didn't visit it for some time when the boat was finished, then I lost it, the link died. Amway, much was said about the speech, It was the boat that followed the bomb, which itself was an atrocity, and all the sailors that died in the water, eaten by sharks, it was almost saying it was wrong what happened, and stared when the 3 characters where comparing scars etc, "Quint" has the tattoo of the boat, and so on. Wish I could direct you to the site, it was very interesting, it wasn't known if Robert Shaw put this in, or Spielberg
http://www.empireonline.com/features/quint-uss-indianapolis-speech/
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Thanks for that. Just reading the speech again makes me shiver! And when you give it to a great actor like Robert Shaw - Magic ! (He died much too early.)
I remember now seeing a programme about the USS Indianapolis - the scandal was that the US took so long to initiate a search. Whether it was c**k up or conspiracy is not known.
Thanks and good luck with the project for the Mini-Bruce!
David
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its had a coat of paint now, and fins glass clothed, I am gong to tinker with a linkage from working rear planes to front planes, to help out a bit with the constant diving. I have searched you tube etc, cant find an example of this sub working, has anybody seen one work? I am sure bit does.
I was asked today, regarding the range issue, have I tried another xtal? Hmmm... no, don't even know if I have one, but worth a go, I checked over tx again, re-soldered aerial wire inside, and cleaned everything up, but no improvement, and no sign of another tx, but the xtal idea is worth pursuing :-))
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just spotted a tx in sales section, hopefully its mine, so we can get on with this albatross of a project! :((
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PROGREES!! :}
New transmitter and receiver fitted, and its back to the lake. The synthesised corona rx, used once, £20, has blown up, I wired it wrong {:-{ It was quite spectacular, another £20 wasted, but good news, I now have a surface running rc dorsal fin, well at least nearly, I need some serious submarine experienced help here.
Firstly, the rear planes have no effect at all, maybe not enough travel, although they look ok, or not enough surface area. The sub needs to be very nose light, sitting at 30degrees tail down when stationary, then a few clicks of throttle and it will surface run reasonably level, anything over that slow speed, it dives, regardless what the rear planes are doing. I tried with and without static front planes, still the same . After a while I sort of mastered something of a running speed, letting it dive, off the throttle, it surfaces (seems to take ages, I am not used to having a model disappear!) then bobs up anywhere really! :} Rudder has little effect, the turning circle is like a train. Ballast seems to be a real art to get right, its almost on the verge of tail light when running, in spite of the angle at rest, when it does want to dive, the prop is sometimes leaving the water.
I wonder if a leveller will have any effect, once its over slow speed, and diving, its straight down, input from planes does nothing, you have to cut the throttle and wait for the natural floatation, if its gone too deep up comes all the gunge and weed attached to the nose, which slows the ascent.
So nearly there, its tweaking now. I am still thinking of linking the from planes to the rear, what do you think?
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Its like flashbacks to 1988!
Everything you describe sounds like my shark Edwina from back in the day. Diving when she wanted, anything above half throttle and she would dive, surfacing who knows where, muddy nose, no idea what she had been up to under there :}
Welcome to the RC Shark Club, "Something Fishy This Way Comes...."
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Fantastic! I am not alone!! but with a name such as yours did you sort it? :-) technology today you would think this simple task would be achievable. If you cant do it I have no chance! M <:(yesterday it dived quickly and. Was ages coming back.up or at least it felt ages. When it appeared it had a whole field attached to the nose!
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By heck Alan, I remember that beast! Makes me feel old seeing that again!
Maybe I should build one...
Rich
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My fifth model should never have been a shark...even funnier was watching it roll belly up and lay in the water like a dead thing.
Making it work properly, I would defer to the sub experts on getting yours to function properly. I had to runn with the forward fins deflected all the way to surface to keep her on the surface. As soon as the planes went horizontal the model would speed up and the flow of water over the sharks head would act as a down pitched hydroplane and she was off!
No rear hydroplanes were fitted on mine...will get it right next time %)
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I've got a Trumpeter Seawolf kit which may make into a half decent shark...hmm.
Or...an old Revell Skipjack. Hmm...
Rich
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Just found these pics...cheap and cheerful shark fins.
Rich
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started laying up the blue foam to make the mould for my one today rich :-))
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if someone builds one that works, build two! O0
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Ah, good man yourself...I'll hang on and buy one of yours, mate.
Rich
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Right gentlemen, about this shark.
I've just had a long chat to Andy about making up a basic shark kit, he's well advanced in making the mould up already. The idea is to have just a top 'deck' vac formed out of styrene, with either a styrene fin or a latex one(to give a little movement and life to it), supplied with a wtc consisting of the tube, mounting brackets, a pair of end caps, a styrene tray to hold the radio, watertight exits for the rudder/planes control wires, and maybe a prop shaft as well. That would leave you as the buyer to supply and fit your own three channel radio, motor and battery pack of your choice, as most of you would have these items laying around in the workshop, so that would keep the cost down.
Now, what we need to gauge is the amount of interest in this...the initial idea is to produce half a dozen or so and see what happens from there. I've already put my name on one, so that leaves five to sell. I will add here that this isn't going to be a huge production run, just to knock up a few for those of you who fancy something different. Making shed loads of cash isn't the plan, it's not going to be a commercial set up by any means of the imagination, Andy just wants to cover his expenses really.
So chaps, what do you think about it? I'd be interested in your comments/criticisms/whatever...if you fancy one, please let me know and we can go from there.
The all important price...yes, working on that at the moment, but probably be around £120-150 ish (a very big ish) depending on the cost of the vac forming, and the purchase of the wtc tubes and materials for the end caps. Obviously, the more Andy can sell, the cheaper the price will be.
Rich
(note to moderators...I hope this is ok under Mayhem sales rules to post this up here, if it takes off then maybe it could be placed under a different heading? It's not really a commercial enterprise, so that's why I added it onto Paul's original posting)
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I don't think a shark is very good choice of subject to model unless it's going to operate fairly slowly or you cheat by adding rear control surfaces.
A shark's pectoral fins aren't very good for controlling pitch as they're too close to the c.o.g. A real shark bends its body to control pitch giving extremely effective vectored thrust, not something very easy to do with a stiff plastic hull though.
A better choice would be a dolphin or killer whale, with the horizontal tail giving large control surfaces located far aft giving exceptional control for a fun aquabatic model.
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I understand that, Andy...but the idea is to just have a visible shark fin, not the complete body, or a scale shark at all. Most people just want see a fin gliding along, and with the addition of a set of planes, to slide under underwater now and again.
A plank of wood with a fin attached would be ideal, but at least this will look more like a shark if it has a black back visible when surfaced.
Rich
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I understand that, Andy...but the idea is to just have a visible shark fin, not the complete body, or a scale shark at all. Most people just want see a fin gliding along, and with the addition of a set of planes, to slide under underwater now and again.
A plank of wood with a fin attached would be ideal, but at least this will look more like a shark if it has a black back visible when surfaced.
Rich
Norbert Bruggen succeded with a dolphin
http://www.modelluboot.de/KITS/Delfin_Ordner/Delfin.html
some video in action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TmiU5Wa6Y0
maybe take a look at the construction and see if it something that could be used as a basis
BTW the leveller will be in the post in the morning
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Chaps, I think you're missing the point here...
Norbert Bruggen's dolphin was a submarine in a fish's clothing, and I agree, it's a grand piece of kit. But...this is purely a little bit of fun, designed as a shark fin, to be driven along the surface looking menacing, with the capability to slip under the surface as and when the user wants it to.
It's not supposed to be a fully operational, all singing, all dancing submarine, purely as something a bit different to use on your local lake, or for guys like Paul(Red181)to operate in conjunction with his Orca boat.
Norbert's dolphin costs an awful lot more than Andy's shark will, and don't forget the title of this post..."cheap and simple RC sub dorsal fin project.."
Rich
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Rich
sorry, I didnt mean he should buy one.... I was jus suggesting that maybe some of the design and theory could be used in the shark
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If I was at the beginning of the project I would certainly have put my hand up for one, but I am financially a bit deep here, with the MMB kit, and some extras, so as much as I want to say yes, I need to fully commit to this project until I am forced to give up. U33's explanation is exactly what I want, a bit of fun, with the dorsal fin drifting around, and the ability to slip under the water to the depth of the fin. I am probably getting close to assessing if this will actually work, which it should as it is a commercially available kit that has been around from a reputable seller for a while, so for the time being I will carry on.
I have now fitted new pushrod connectors to the rear planes and rudder to give more throw, and therefore more control. I have crudely changed the static front planes to moving ones, and will shortly attach pushrods from rear to front, so servo deflection will now operate front and rear planes, any comments on this would be appreciated. Also, I have a leveller on the way courtesy of essex2visuvesi, not quite sure yet what this will do without a degree of depth control.
Now here is a really dumb question, ever doubted yourself?? well I have that feeling now. So, when diving, will the trailing edge (rear) of the operating planes go up, or down?????? This could be the problem with diving at anything above snail pace speed :embarrassed: :embarrassed:
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If you want the shark to behave in a predictable fashion I would separate the front and rear hydroplanes. Have the rear planes controlled directly from the leveller e.g. no receiver input, just power up the leveller with a 5 volt feed.
Control the front planes manually to change depth. With this approach your shark should dive and surface in a very controlled fashion.
Dive plane angle should be about +/- 30 degrees, with a maximum of 35 degrees, beyond that you will just stall the control surface.
If they're still ineffectual at that angle then you need to think about increasing their area
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Hi Subculture,
I cant control the front planes, as all the pushrods etc exit the wtc from the rear only, hence thinking of controlling the front planes via the servo controlled rears, and the question remains, do the trailing edges of the rear planes go up or down for diving. Any other ideas please keep them coming, but I have no direct control on the front planes, I think the original plan was decoration only, or maybe some stabilisation, in the build instructions they are actually optional
thanks
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You can either put in an extra control rod at the front, or use a u-bend or reverse motion lever to actuate the forward planes from the rear of the module.
If you remain with rear planes only, the boat will work, but it will dive by porpoising, whereas I think what you are looking for is a more subtle motion where the shark dives in a level fashion.
Regarding the rear planes, if you have them working only, to dive the trailing edges of the planes point down, and vice versa to come up.
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Oops :embarrassed:
I had the planes the wrong way. That will help :}
I like the u bend to the front planes It will be difficult to remove the battery with anything coming out of the front endcap. Ill give it a go witg inproved travel and planes set the right way :-))
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Haven't you ever dabbled with model aeroplanes?
Basically rear hydroplanes behave like the elevator on an aeroplane. They can work somewhat differently if/when combined with forking front hydroplanes.
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progress at last with some time off work. I have made new servo control rods, and done a much better job with them, the delay was caused by finding true 2mm rod, most is 1.67mm with m2 thread, the tubes that exit the wtc where 2mm. The loaned leveller arrived, but here is the thing, on the bench I have had it working, but, if I use the tx to simulate a dive, the leveller fights the tx and throws the servo to surface, which I suppose its doing the right thing??
There is a dip switch fitted, if I leave that on, the the lights are lit up, but nothing is happening to control the servo, so what is the point of the dip switch then? If removed, the unit works if I simulate a dive or surface, but it takes over from the tx...... I'm confused now!
Its actually one of these
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It limits the movement to prevent crash diving/extreme manoeuvres. Some levellers override the levelling completely when you extend the control beyond a certain point e.g. half way. LR3 from Norbert Bruggen works that way.
With the microgyros leveller you can turn the levelling off by using a switch to short the two pins adjacent to the servo connection. Perhaps that's what you're doing?
There is a small pushbutton switch to set the controller modes, this can also be selected by infrared (use a torch).
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ok makes sense now, I was violently tilting over 45 degrees, that would have been some crash dive!
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for any onlookers, hols means a two week lay off, I am not ignoring all the help! c u soon :-))
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Well managed to get a quick session in before work this morning, but it will the the last, and it went very well. I should be abler to look in from time to time, so comments most welcome to help with this project.
I now have, courtesy of a fellow member, a microgyros leveller. Even though Mike at Microgyros has emailed and spoken on the phone, I am not sure how this should be set up. I changed all the servo rods, and fitted much better connectors. I found that trying to shape a rod from the servo, out of the wtc, and to the planes or rudder, was virtually impossible, so I have done them all in two pieces. A nice straight rod out of the wtc, so no binding, then a second piece to the planes. The wtc is black, so I cannot see inside, which I think presents a problem with the leveller. I hook everything up, seal the wtc, fit in hull, and check for level running. In the pic below you can see how much deflection I need on the rear planes to surface run. The front static planes also have to be angles in a similar fashion, to stop the immediate diving. If this was a model aircraft, I would say the cog was way off, but I don't understand this sub stuff, so some advice would be appreciated.
This will now surface run, it was quite windy this morning, so not very good conditions in the choppy water, but, with some small inputs on the elevator control, it will surface run. Thing is, although I know on the bench the leveller is working, and working the correct way, I have no idea what its doing in the model. Very small inputs create the dive, and if I only dive for a few seconds, I know pretty well where its going to come up, so far so good. I cannot seem to stay at a constant depth. I was thinking levelling off at fin depth (with a barrel attached to indicate this) I should with some stick adjustments be able to maintain some sort of reasonable constant depth (especially with the leveller thingy) but this is not happening, suggesting I am not setting the leveller up correctly. Does it need to be set up every time I hook up the battery? and by the time I have forced everything back in the wtc all things have probably moved. I have to have the motor end of the wtc sealed up at home, its way too fiddly at the lakeside, and all the electronics go in that end. I suspect I need to cut out a clear "window" so I can see the leveller?
Do I need all that trim on the planes? without that it just immediately dives. Good thing is no roll on the turns, so it looks quite good, however the turning circle is still massive, so I need to increase the rudder area as even with the larger control horns it turns better, but not enough.
Ballasting seems to be very critical, sitting still level on the water does not really have any influence when its running, the smallest piece of foam making all the difference. I am looking forward to trying again on a calm day.
Any input most welcome!, we will beat this :-))
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second pic in last post shows the planes angle to achieve surface running, below pic shows rudder deflection at maximum, not enough
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I don't really know much about submarines, but as for knowing your depth, the barrel sounds like it would work. I haven't watched the movie in a long time, but I seem to remember multiple barrels, you could maybe tow 2 or 3, all on different length strings, to keep track of things.
Keep up the good work, I have been following the thread with interest, its such an unusual subject.
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I'll raise a few points.
It seems you have some experience of model aeroplanes- good stuff. I fly too, and there's a lot of correlation between a model aeroplane and a sub.
You will know that if you build an aeroplane with wonky control surfaces, or you get the c.g out, it will never fly well if at all. Same goes with a sub. You can get away with more in a sub because things work slower, all the same a sub with nicely arranged fins will always work better.
The C.G position of a sub varies depending on the hull shape. Going back to an aeroplane, we tend to balance about a third back from the leading edge. You can go a bit more than this, as you no doubt know, but the aeroplane becomes twitchier and more difficult to fly.
With a shark, it's essentially a spindle shape hull. A good starting point for the boats c.g is 40% of the boats length in from the bow/nose. So if your boat is about two foot long, you want the boat to balance at about 9-10" form the front. Moving the C.g forward of that point will make the boat more stable, but less responsive to rudder and hydroplanes, and vice versa for moving it astern.
Regarding the leveller. Basically there are three gain settings, low, medium and high. I'd start with a low setting for a small boat like yours. There's also a setting that enables you to level the sensor in the boat. It's vital the leveller is fixed to a firm foundation that doesn't change when you open the WTC. My own observations of the MMB WTC is that the rack inside is just a floppy plate of plastic- not really adequate IMO. I'd think about beefing it up by making a structure that remains self supporting and stiff.
Regarding setting the unit via infra red, and the lack of a transparent WTC. I agree it's a nuisance. I liked some of Mike's earlier units which incorporated a reed switch, so you could set things up by swiping a magnet. The majority of dive modules out there are transparent or have clear endcaps at the very least, so i guess most people are happy. You can still set things up outside the boat though.
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thanks subculture, makes sense :-))
I was under the impression if it sat level static on the water, as the pic earlier, I was ok, but I get the cog stuff, so.. forget ballast to make it sit level, take it all out (only a few pieces of depron etc) get cog correct, then start thinking of the ballast. The leveller is fixed to the plastic plate, that has been modified to be more rigid, but I can do better.
Unfortunately no option to make a window in endcaps, they way its made, and I don't really fancy cutting holes in the wtc, so will set up the leveller on the bench. I fitted it on double sided tape, like a gyro on a rc heli, as my understanding is its doing a very similar thing, just on a different plane surface. I have it set on medium, so will change to low.
A holiday break from tomorrow, I can look in, but the sub is now away for a few weeks, I think its getting there now, I know it works to a fashion, it just needs setting up correct, and some final tweeks might just produce an acceptable set up. :-))
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I have Mike's leveler in my Skipjack. It is an excellent product. I found that my leveler needs to be set to higher sensitivity the smaller the sub. That would be the only point that I would differ from Andy's excellent advice.
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The best I can offer relates back to my experience with a shark back in the days before digital photographs, internets and things. My shark would nose dive as a default setting, and as mentioned previously, was probably due to a total lack of understanding related to the C of G of the model. I was recently reading an article relating to an american model of a Los Angeles Class sub and the term 'up bubble', where on the surface the sub runs nose up to reduce the effect of water over the sloped bow driving the sub underwater in an uncontrolled manner, then ballasts to a horizontal level for normal, submerged operation. Would a constant 'up bubble' attitude help with the operation of this model? And how would it effect the gyro? Worth further discussion?
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How you getting on with the shark fin, Paul...any updates? I'll be starting an r/c Orca very soon...
Rich
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Hi Rich,
just got back from hols so not allowed into the shed! I intend to work on cog, and secure the leveller tray better, and see what happens then. I think going by previous advice I have concentrated too much on a level hull whilst stationary, and need to get a level hull whilst moving
Tell me more about those pics!
Paul
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Hi Rich,
just got back from hols so not allowed into the shed! I intend to work on cog, and secure the leveller tray better, and see what happens then. I think going by previous advice I have concentrated too much on a level hull whilst stationary, and need to get a level hull whilst moving
Tell me more about those pics!
Paul
Morning Paul,
The killer whales/sharks/assorted wildlife/ in the picture are the work of a Belgian modeller who is a regular on Andy's (Subculture) Facebook page, they are superb creations, and perform exactly like the real creature once in the water.
I want to base mine on the big fella, using styrene sheet for the fins and make them bigger and more realistic, as in the photos. The other Andy, the one who was going to make the shark kit, is so busy at the moment, what with earning a living and building bits and bobs for people, that the kit will be delayed, so I thought I'd have a go at modifying an MMB SubSonic hull/deck and see what I can come up with.
I have a few ideas in mind of what I want to do, so as they say in all the best places....''watch this space'' ;)
You do need a level attitude on your shark, otherwise you'll confuse the leveller and it will be trying to keep the boat level, but it won't know which way up level is! Does that make sense....?
Rich
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Oh god! Not sure really. I need to get on with this but my pcf refub is getting in the way. Naybe ill take it to haydock show and let sone sub experts see it in action!
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the tail fin over the prop is a nice idea on the shark, I think I will have to do a sneaky copy of that idea!
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more tinkering, with all bits of ballast removed, cog was a mile out, at 55%, so its taken quite a bit of weight to get it to settle at 40%, water tests might show its now too heavy at the front. No mention is made of this with build instructions, if I was building again, I would be mindful of this and keep weight down at rear, and have wtc further forward. I see a problem as its going to be dragging some serious weight on the nose when I want to surface (see pic, its solid Bronze!!)
The leveller is proving to be something that I just cannot understand. After reading the instructions over and over and over, the more I look at them the more confused I get {:-{, and that's also after emails and a lengthy conversation with Mike at Micrgyros! :embarrassed:
I currently have the two way pin header fitted on the leveller, but reading over Mikes emails, this should not be installed? so last test was with cog way off, header pin installed, and it still had a degree of success. If I take the header pin out, what does this actually do?
Still debating to operate the leveller by a torch, meaning cutting a clear panel out of the wtc. THe tray is a rtelatively tight fit in the wtc, so no worries about it slopping around.
This has been a real pain of a project!! >:-o
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My bits arrived today, Paul...a nice hull/deck moulded in an off white colour, so all I'll have to do is to add the black sections when it's time to paint it.
As for your leveller problem, I don't know the answer to that...every one of Mike's levellers I've had, I've never touched them. I just installed them wherever they would fit, plugged them in, and away we go...maybe I've just been lucky with mine. I find that as long as you have the boat perfectly level in it's stand, and the stand perfectly level, it's just a case of setting the planes dead level, turning the leveller on, and let it do it's own thing. As I say, maybe I've just been lucky...
Rich
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...I currently have the two way pin header fitted on the leveller, but reading over Mikes emails, this should not be installed? so last test was with cog way off, header pin installed, and it still had a degree of success. If I take the header pin out, what does this actually do?
Still debating to operate the leveller by a torch, meaning cutting a clear panel out of the wtc. THe tray is a rtelatively tight fit in the wtc, so no worries about it slopping around.
This has been a real pain of a project!! >:-o
There is a dip switch fitted, if I leave that on, the the lights are lit up, but nothing is happening to control the servo, so what is the point of the dip switch then? If removed, the unit works if I simulate a dive or surface, but it takes over from the tx...... I'm confused now!
ME by email about 10 minutes later date=18 July
You'll confuse folks. There is a two-way pin header rather than dip switch. Google dip switch and you get pictures of a miniature switch.
Leave these two pins open. If you insert a shorting jumper it nulls the sensor input....
Can you telephone me on 0141 416 2001 or xxxxx..........if you have any difficulty with regard to the operation of the AST2?
And do the side to side roll test I suggested.
The pitch control, from the picture, doesn't look to be aligned true. If it is offset then sideways roll will have an unwanted influence.
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just for clarity here, its the whole job that has been a pain, not the leveller, and not the model either, its just my misunderstanding of basic submarine principals. What I thought was going to be an easy, cheap, fun project, has proved otherwise , and only really caused by me, not the leveller, not the model . It is a challenge, and something I want to see out to the end, but unfortunately the spend is increasing all the time!
I appreciate your input Mike, (very much appreciated by the way) it does not help with my understanding. I cannot understand the point of the jumper. If its in place, and nulls the sensor input, what is the purpose? Also, I cannot understand the sideways roll issue and what that means to the sensor.
It will be interesting to put it back in the water with that large weight, I had better use a shallow lake! :}
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unfortunately I have to think about the future of this project, following yet another morning messing around.
Mike afforded me a long conversation (again :embarrassed:) about the leveller, and I now have a better understanding of what it does, and how it does it.
Its the model I am struggling with, as thought, the weight to get the cog something like correct is miles out, and much too heavy. My only answer is to move the wtc much further forward, this will mean the weight of the battery comes into play to help with cog, but fundamentally its very tail heavy, so even with ballast as it was two weeks or so ago, its always going to be struggling as its too tail heavy.
Moving the wtc can be done, but its going to mean changing all the pushrods, and remanufacturing the propshaft and mount, which is well and truly epoxied in. This might now call in extra shaft supports etc etc and I have very limited patience left with this "cheap and SIMPLE" project :((
Im going to have a think about it, and some long conversations with sub experts at Haydock (warning to any going!). I would very much like to beat this anf get it working, but the time invested so far, and the money, is proving to be excessive.
Anybody fancy a commission build? !!! ;)
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Fundamentally, the WTC should be positioned so that the centre of the cylinder lines up with the intended C.G. You do have a bit of wiggle room, but generally location in a teardrop shaped hull is dictated by the limited space available.
You should be able to balance the boat using a piece of string made up as a sling. Hold the boat near the ground or above something soft (e.g. water) and see if it balances at the right point. if not adjust the weight until it does, but don't mess with the WTC position, as that will just make things worse (because you then adjust the centre of buoyancy).
If the boat balances at the right point, put it in the test tank. If the boat sits level you're good to go, if not then add some foam polystyrene just below the waterline at the end that is sitting low until it becomes level.
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Good advice from Andy there, Paul...you don't need to be mucking about altering cylinders and push rod lengths, etc...centre of cylinder = centre of gravity of the boat. Always a good start point, and as Andy said, you do have a bit of 'wiggle room' (technical terminology...)
Ideally, aim to get the waterline just level with the bottom of that little hump on the deck (I'm using that as the base of the dorsal fin on mine) that should allow you to submerge with just a sniff of power.
But first, get everything level with the creature on the surface...add small pieces of foam or lead as needed, but it does need to be level before you go any further.
Rich
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Here's how the fin looks on mine, Paul...
Rich
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Another pic of the hull with the fin fitted...2mm styrene, with the edges sanded similar to an aircraft wing profile. Making the tail at the moment..on the third attempt so far. >>:-(
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Third attempt at the tail fin...
Rich
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Hi Paul (Red181),
We look forward to talking with you at Haydock Park - the AMS stand.
Bring the sub along, if you can. There are a couple of small pools, just down the Grandstand from us. The pools will not be used all the time so we can probably help you with trim etc.
We will all be there both days.
See you David (Forrest)
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Hi Rich
If you get yours to work, and I bet you do, I will tie that lump of bronze around my neck and jump in the lake %%
David, thanks for the kind offer, I will say hello with the disaster shark, I bet in the right hands this can be sorted, I'm not after much, just a dive to the height of the fin, and some sort of control as to where it comes up again would be nice, and a degree of turn, that's all!!, and avoid scraping the bottom of a lake and dragging back up old Ford Cortina's and shopping trollies! :}
Paul
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I'll get it to work, Paul...one way or another I'll get it to work. The problem at the moment is getting the two halves to fit together. I've big enough gaps around the thing to be able to drive a bus through them... >>:-(
I'll have one more go today at it, then I think I may do away with the hull bottom and just clip the wtc into the deck section, once in the water nobody will see it doesn't have a bottom to it.
Rich
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Inly prob rich the bottom has all the shaft mounts and planes etc
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No problem, Paul...two Terry clips will secure the cylinder in the deck, and attach everything else to the cylinder. Just playing with that at the moment...we'll see what happens.
Rich
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It was a fruitful day at Haydock on Saturday, many thanks to Dave and co on the AMS stand who looked at my Dorsal fin sub. They identified a few problems.
First the fins are all wrong. I had made them from solid depron, covered in glass cloth. It was pointed out, when the sub dives, they then start to act as ballast, which then messes up the whole thing. Whilst things are not working correctly, I was advised to disconnedt the leveller, until things get sorted to a fashion, then reconnect. The "o" rings on the end caps need replacing, they where not tight enough, and when things are sorted seal up the motor end cap.
We discussed ballast and cog at length, and the guys said get a level attitude on the water, using blue foam to ballast, I was using a foam that was holding some water.
After all that, They where confident it should work! :-))
So this morning it was back to the lake at 8.30am.Perfect day, sunny, warm, no wind, and no audience :D Fins removed, all ballast removed, I started to balance the boat. After 3 hours, gave up :(( When level on the water, its a real struggle to maintain surface running. If I induce a dive, even with very gentle change in plane attitude, its an immediate crash dive, so I then have to throttle off and wait for it to surface. Even with a vastly increased surface area, and maximum movement, the rudder still has little effect, so I am bored of it now and need a break from it as I have other jobs to do, so its now in the attic.
I am sure this will work, but I'm too fed up with it now.
Ill say it again, anybody fancy taking this on as a commission build, Ill do it! ok2
For now, its a shelved project
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Whether the fins are made from foam or weapons grade plutonium the upthrust created when submerged will be the same. Archimedes principle. :-))
The fitting of the o-rings is a common complaint on this model. Reason for the problem? The caps are too small for the pipe. You can pack out the endcaps with tape- a bit bodgy but it works, or you could also try some 1/8" thick o-rings which give you a bit more compression than the standard 3mm ones.
The twitchiness sounds like either too high c.g or too far aft or both.
Better steering requires bigger rudder, preferably in the prop wash.
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Paul, you'd be much better off attempting to trim and ballast the boat (creature?) indoors, in the bath. If I were you, I'd start afresh with it...remove all the foam and ballast, and completely restart the operation. It seems to me that you've reached the point of totally confusing yourself (been there, done that) with bits of foam and lumps of lead in all the wrong places.
Start off by getting the cylinder position and the c of g sorted, with the boat level...then start adding lead and foam until you reach your desired water line, again making sure that the boat is level in all aspects. Once there, give it a push to submerge it and note what attitude it goes under at, and what attitude it surfaces at. Add/remove lead/foam and keep at it...it can be a long drawn out process, hence the suggestion to do it indoors. it'll drive you mad, you'll swear and cuss a lot, but all of a sudden you'll realise you're there with it.
Andy is right re. the end caps...mine don't fit any sense either. I packed mine out with electrical tape...about one and a bit turns if I remember rightly, and I also put a wrap of tape around the outside...belt and braces.
Don't abandon it, leave it for a couple of days or so, then come back to it and start over. You'll get there, trust me...
Rich
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Thanks for comments chaps
my o rings where quite tight to start with. Its been pulled apart so many times I think they are worn now. The bath os a small corner one unfortunately.
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Very unlikely you've worn the o-rings. The finish inside of PVC waste pipe is usually quite poor as the fittings are designed to seal to the outside, which has a very good tolerance. I inherited one of the MMB Sub sonic wtc's as part of a job lot of bits, and the fit of the end caps was found wanting. I machined up a replacement pair of PVC caps as a demonstration, but I know not everyone has access to a lathe. Had I been in the position of having to use the supplied caps, I would have gone for some thicker seals.
You must have a very small bath if you can't get a two foot long boat in!
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1531905 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1531905)
Saw this and thought it might be of interest. Not quite the same as yours but might give you some more motivation
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He's got more patience then me...if that was me, that shark would be in the bin by now!
Rich
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how good is that shark!
Any progress with your shark Rich?
I am working on some rc plane projects and my PCF at the minute, the shark is having a rest. No offers for a commission build, so it looks like it could be asleep for a while :}
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I'm still fighting to get those two hull sections to go together, Paul...I did think about using a Revell Skipjack hull instead, but I'm not really sure about it.
Rich
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I spoke to Andy, maybe he will make some progress. I ordered some new parts at the Haydock show, not turned up yet, if I could get it to surface run, that would be a start!
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I think that's what I'll be aiming for, just a decks awash surface runner, until Andy gets his done. It'll save an awful lot of work, and once it's out on the lake with just the fin showing, it should look ok.
If I hadn't have just bought a new car, I'd have ordered one of Norbert Bruggen's Dolphin kits, but I needed to get mobile again...no good having all these boats if I can't get to the lake to use them.
Rich
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If I hadn't have just bought a new car, I'd have ordered one of Norbert Bruggen's Dolphin kits, but I needed to get mobile again...no good having all these boats if I can't get to the lake to use them.
Rich
I'm ordering the Deep Rover in the next few weeks :)
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I'm ordering the Deep Rover in the next few weeks :)
Very nice too...I'm not talking to you any more.
mutter mutter
Rich
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Paul, I'm not sure if I posted these pictures before, but this seems a simple way to build a surface running shark fin. Just the top half of the Sonic with the wtc clipped under it. Ballast it right down until the base of the fin is at water level, spray it black...should look pretty good on the water, I think.
Rich
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Had a potter about thisarvo, came up with this...still got the rudder to work out, but it's a start.
Rich
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Bit more pottering about this morning produced this, the first attempt at the rudder. It seems to work well, but I may just change the rudder blade shape into something more shark/whale like.
Rich
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rich, make two of everything! You HAVE to get it to run periscope depth and be able to surface, PLEEEEEEEASE!!!!!!!!!
Paul :-))
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Very nice too...I'm not talking to you any more.
mutter mutter
Rich
I shouldn't worry.... I have the Revell 7C, The seawolf and a few others to do as well. But the RC car racing/restoration bug has taken hold of my son so I'm spending quite a bit of time prepping cars..... well if I'm going there anyway I may as well have fun too
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Rich, interesting to see how far forward you have the wtc, was that to balance it, as its way further forward than the stock build. Nice idea with the clips, they your old bike clips! :}
I am thinking I'm not up to getting everything water tight to just hang things under the top half. Your progress has renewed my enthusiasm, but I need to make more progress with my PCF (a different thread!). Hoping Andy comes up with something for Xmas pressie!
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The wtc isn't in it's proper position there, Paul, it will be a bit further back when finalised, and I'll probably need to shorten the prop shaft as well, although bath tests will need to be done first. The clips allow me to remove/reposition the wtc easily, they will be glued and probably screwed to the top half.
As it comes out of the box, the wtc leaks like a sieve, I built the grooves up for the O rings up with a thin strip of plastic insulating tape underneath them, and once happy with the seal, a drop of cyano completed the job. I can now leave it in the bath, weighted down, for well over an hour, and it's bone dry. If I can make it watertight, so can you...just persist with it, and don't forget a smear of Vaseline around the end caps.
Rich
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Bit more done to the Orca...wtc is built, just waiting for a new battery to arrive from the Component Shop. I altered the rudder too, didn't like that one, so a new one is in the post. WTC clips are screwed in (cracked the gel coat, so a bit of filling is called for... >>:-( )
Hopefully it will be completed this weekend, and then it's off to the lake to see what happens...
Rich
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With a tail fin? Or without a tail fin? What do you reckon?
Rich
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Make it removable, see what looks best in the water. Or do what I am planning and extend it aft quite a bit on a piece of carbon or fibreglass rod...makes the fish seem bigger than it is.
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That's a good idea, skip...why didn't I think of that? Who's a clever boy...?
Rich
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def with tail fin, looks great Rich, I really hope it works, any chance of some video when you do it, pics at least, VERY jealous!!!! :D
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It occurred to me that instead of mucking about repairing the deck, I can use the hull section instead...being a flat top, it looks a lot better than the one with the bump. (note to oneself...do NOT overtighten the screws that hold the clips on....)
And fear not Paul, there will be no doubt be plenty of video footage and pics when the thing goes in the water. What with swans, ducks, killer whales and alligators, I'm going to need a livestock movement licence to go sailing!
Rich
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Who forgot the photo, then? :embarrassed: Looks much better with the flatter deck.
Rich
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The battery pack and the new rudder have arrived (less than 24 hours from payment to delivery...not bad, huh?)
Now tell me the thing won't turn!
Rich
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Rudder linkage made up...because I need to be able to remove the wtc, the rudder linkage needs to be easily parted. Solution...use one of Andy's (username on here: tattooed) magnetic couplings. Unclip the wtc, snap the magnet apart, and that's it...the cylinder is out in one piece.
Rich
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nice....
they don't look like the mmb endcaps, have you used others, and is that a bellows coming out of the front one?
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They are MMB end caps, Paul, just the stern one slightly altered to take a different motor and shaft set up.
And yes, that is a rubber bellows on the front one... ;D
Rich
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Cylinder completed and installed, and ready for a coat of paint. I have a pair of eyes coming as well for it, 22mm diameter...just to finish it off.
Rich
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The eyes arrived earlier, so I've done a temporary fitting, just held together under the wtc with a length of shirring elastic for the moment. Once it's painted I'll fit the eyes in position with 'Sticks like Sh*t'. He's now got a blow hole as well, it might help air to escape.
Rich
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Blowhole?
Must be a Whale Shark :D
Ned
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It's an Atlantic Big Eyed Killer Tuark...father was a Big Eyed Tuna, Mother was a Killer Whale. %)
Rich
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Named Google eye
Ah I feel a song coming on {-)
Ned
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Oh gawd, no...please don't sing!
The more I keep looking at this, the more I'm not happy with it. I'm contemplating dismantling it and doing something with it, but I don't know what as yet. I have an old Skipjack hull in my cupboard, I keep looking at that...
Rich
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Has it even got wet yet? Whats the issue?
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Rich doesn't like gettimg 'em wet :} :} :}
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I'm not sure, skip...there's just 'something' about it that's not right to me. I don't know what it is, but there's just 'something....' Know what I mean?
Rich
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How will you control up and down movement Rich?
Will it just be the speed?
Ned
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I Have taken the liberty of making your shark fin bigger and adding the little tiddly fin that you see on some sharks, between the dorsal fin and the tail. The little fin needs a bit of work but then so do I :embarrassed: . Also made the eyes a bit smaller and coloured it in. Then flipped the image to weed out any duff bits. Random attack with a rattle can and maybe some shaped cardboard templates could result in a nice Tiger Shark looky likey!
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Hmm...now that does look better, skip. Maybe it's the paint job...but I do admit it looks an awful lot better. The tail helps as well, I think, maybe I'll crack on with it and see what it's like later.
Yes...you've inspired me to carry on, skip...I thank you for that.
Rich
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Anything that stops me building one 8' long sir, you are most welcome.....us shark lovers must stick together :-))
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Ned, it's just going to be a sub surface runner for the time being. I plan to ballast it down so the base of the fin is on the waterline, so all you'll you see is the fin.
Maybe at a later date I'll add forward planes (fins) to it...we'll see.
Rich
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Anything that stops me building one 8' long sir, you are most welcome.....us shark lovers must stick together :-))
8 feet? Good grief, man...you might as well pop down the museum and get a stuffed one!
Rich
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QGyxfigkCY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QGyxfigkCY)
maybe something like this %)
Thanks to Umi for the link :-))
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Oh yes...I like that.
Rich
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Maybe a more 'snub' nose might look better !!.
ken
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I thought that, Ken...but then all that will be visible will be the fin itself and maybe 1/4" of the deck at the most. The next one will incorporate a lot of different things on/in it, I guess this could be called the prototype.
Rich
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AH !!! I see. :-))
ken
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It's a well known fact that dislike cylinders, and after trapping my finger inbetween one of the clips and the deck, something had to be done.
I'm going to refit the shark/whale/whatever it is, and instead of the cylinder, I'm going to use an Otter Box. It's a much smaller and much neater set up, and everything that's in the cylinder will fit into the box. It looks better too, I think...it means using a smaller capacity battery, but that's a small price to pay for easier access to the internals and less damage to my fingers.
Hoping to get it sprayed up today as well.
Rich
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The Otter Box is now 99% completed, just got to solder up the motor wires and change the plug on the battery pack and we're there. And yes, I know it's on 2.4gHz, but it's only planned as a surface running boat/fish, so it should be ok.
Never did get round to spraying the thing today, hopefully that'll be a job for tomorrow, it's far too windy outside to attempt spraying.
Rich
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don't throw that completed wtc away, I might know someone for it! :embarrassed:
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Paul...I wonder who that could be.... ;D
I've also taken note of Alan's (the infamous Mr Unbuilt Nautilus himself) advice and ordered a pair of smaller eyes. The ones fitted are 20mm diameter, now I've a pair of 10mm ones coming, they should look a lot better.
Rich
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Have a look at tin tins shark, I've always liked that one, pete
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I'm not sure what this is, Pete...it sort of resembles a fish of some sort. I think... :o
Rich
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Its a generic shark, what you need is a pool full of people and just pop it in and watch what happens, pete
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I bought a shark in spain, made by a company called ranetta, it was called el tiburon , switch it let it go It would dive and surface , I did get chucked out of the pool, pete
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Rich will that box not cause ore drag, as there's a larger flat area at the front and rear. smaller eyes will look far better me thinks :-))
Its a generic shark, what you need is a pool full of people and just pop it in and watch what happens, pete
That I would love to see {-)
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Yep, you're right Ian...it will cause drag, but I have a cunning plan to cure that. Watch this space... ;D
Pete's got this thing about frightening innocent people...as if I would contemplate doing anything like he suggests. %) I want to see what the Common Pond ducks are going to make of a shark fin circling them... ;)
Rich
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And here it is, Ian...the official U-33 anti drag modification. Designed and tested by the Mercedes race team in their wind tunnel, it's Top Secret, so don't tell anyone...
Rich
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Good thinking there, but I can see one very big major flaw with it..........
The masking tape wont hold for long once it get's wet :P
Are you free for a quick phone call mate?
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Free? I'm pretty cheap...
Rich
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Just done the box hold down bolts...no more trapped fingers for me now! The alloy angle is only temporary, I'll change it for a flat strip when I can find a piece.
Cuppa tea, then it's onto mixing up the epoxy.
Rich
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Your getting there mate, I think I have some flat strip somewhere if you need it, let me know how long you need, and I can bring it down what ever evening I'm down.
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I was hoping you'd say that, mate...I can't find a piece anywhere. 9'' long will be perfect, it'll save me trying to cut that piece of angle in half.
Thanks mate,
Rich
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Just found a length around 2ft long, I'll bring it down in the week.
Remember to round the end's off with a file though, otherwise you know it's sod's law your slice your fingers open on it {-)
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Terrific mate, thanks ever so much.
Me and Sod's law are old mates..if it's possible to cut my fingers, then I can cut my fingers.
Rich
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What size are the fish eyes you have there, Rich?
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The ones fitted are 20mm diameter, Andy...the replacement ones will be 10mm.
Rich
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Do they do bigger diameters? I was after 1" diameter. I can make some if I have to, but if I can buy them inexpensively it'll save me a job.
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Have a look here, Andy... http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/mohair-bear-making-supplies/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from= (http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/mohair-bear-making-supplies/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=) that's where I got mine from, he does a huge range of sizes and colours.
Rich
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if you look at a sharks head they eyes are actually smaller with no white to them at all
(http://cache2.artprintimages.com/lrg/27/2790/58GOD00Z.jpg)
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But mine's not a scale shark...
Rich
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But, Sharks don't have scales. %)
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''shakes head in despair....''
Rich
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Steady as she goes rich, its a sharkey looky likey
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%)
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''shakes head in despair....''
Rich
Did the eyes fall out %% %%
Ned
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Whale, I didn't think it was meant to be a shark......
Something fishy going on here.......
Ok I have my coat on already......
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Nah, the eyes have it!! %% %%
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<*<
Rich
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But mine's not a scale shark...
Rich
(https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lyirp3h0T31qao1lqo1_500.gif)
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Today is 'get the creature painted' day, but before I do, I'd like some advice:
Do I leave the lower nose piece on? Or do I leave it off?
Your comments, please chaps...
Rich
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leave it on :-))
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On
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2-0 so far, then....
Masked up and first coat of paint on. Still a bit breezy outdoors, so I'm spraying indoors in the Mark 1 cardboard spray booth. Windows wide open, fan set to hurricane force...you can see why I'm divorced. ;D
Rich
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Well, boys n' girls...here he is, resplendent in full mating colours, and now sporting his new eyes (11mm dia instead of the original 22mm dia ones I'd fitted).
There's a couple of small areas I can see of where the paint bled under the masking tape, but I put that down to him banging into ice floes in the cold Arctic waters.
Rich
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Looking good richard , like the colour scheme, and you will be able to keep your eyes on it, pete
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Thanks Pete..I'm actually pleased with the way it's come out. The lower part of the nose is yet to be sprayed, I'm trying to mask it up to look like an open mouth full of teeth, but I'd probably be better off sticking my own on there!
Once the paint has gone off hard, all I have left to do is to reassemble it with the radio box, and then it can go in the bath for trimming/ballasting.
And this was supposed to be a 'cheap and simple project'... >>:-(
Rich
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Aha...I knew I'd seen these somewhere. They will save a lot of work if I can get hold of some..
Rich
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I know where there is a set Rich, Uckfield. I noticed them them last weekend while I was looking for something else.
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Now that may well be worth a trip up there...cheers, Ian.
Rich
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hurry up and get it wet!!!!!! :} :}
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hurry up and get it wet!!!!!! :} :}
If he's going up to Uckfield today to pick up those teeth he would be driving right by my house, he could bring willy the whale with him and dunk it in my pool to trim him up.......
While he's here he could then help with trimming my bloody Ohio at the same time hint hint.......
;)
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Hoping to complete final assembly today, need to fit the r/c box and then trim the bolts down some, they are far too long at the moment. I should have done them earlier on, but I totally forgot about doing it... :embarrassed:
Teeth are on the way, so keep your fingers well clear... ;)
Rich
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Just need to swap the length of angle alloy for a flat piece, and we're done, apart from the under nose section and the teeth.
Rich
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Rich, has that parcel turned up that you want me to pick up?
If so I'll pop down later and bring the flat strip with me.
Looking at it, is there some slight paint bleed on the rear whit patch?
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It's just that second arrived mate...that'd be grand, see you later. Oh, and there's news from Ron re the radio boxes.
Rich
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Just a bit of paint bleed, but I'm not that worried about it, it won't show in the water.
Rich
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Ok see you later then, I may have arms like an orangutan after lifting this damn sub in and out the pool trying to get the trim right.
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That's why I'm now building smaller boats, mate...although I may be able to balance better if my knuckles are dragging on the ground. ;D
Rich
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Ready and waiting for the teeth to arrive, then I can glue it on...
Rich
(yes, I know it looks odd, but I had to take the pic upside down, then rotate it)
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Thanks to Ian (IanPAL) I now have a sensible alloy hold down strap for the radio box...thanks mate, much appreciated.
Two more jobs to do, and then it's bath time...first I need to attach the front lower cone (and the teeth when they arrive) and secondly I need to alter the rudder linkage, it's a bit fragile I think. They should be done this morning, then thisarvo it can go in the bath for a trimming/ballasting session, then charge the batteries and hopefully tomorrow I can take the beast down to the lake.
Thanks again, Ian..
Rich
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No problem Rich, if your taking it down the lake tomorrow make it in the afternoon and I'll wonder around (I'm busy in the morning) I want to see what the ducks do, although as they have never seen a whale before they will probably ignore it.
Give me a quick call if you do come over.
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Will do mate...as long as you promise not to take the mick out of my shark/whale/fish/creature, whatever the thing is. A whark? Or a shale?
Rich
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I had to stick a section of styrene sheet across the bottom of the nose section in order to pull things into shape and get the two sections to fit together. One way or another it WILL fit! >>:-(
Rich
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Well...it's been in the bath for the first trials. There's good news, and there's bad news.
The good news is that the creature floats nicely in the bath, needs a fair bit of lead yet, but at least it sits level. Which is good...
The bad news is that the Otter Box leaks...I'm guessing that the water is creeping up the rudder tube. Which is bad...
Rich
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The sharks teeth are made by BECC, those of the flags and vinyl stickers manufactures. Just bought some for my semi scale conversion of a ready to run police boat ( now an american Vietnam type patrol boat ) I hope to run it on Sunday and make sure everything works first before using them. Regards, Dave.
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That's the ones, Dave..hoping they will finish it off nicely.
Rich
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hinge that front lower chin, instead of dive planes, operate that from a servo! it can nosh on all the boats that get in the way!! %%
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That's not a bad idea, Paul...hmm. ;D
Rich
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How about this next Rich?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Floating-Shark-Head-Fountain-for-Garden-Pond-Weird-Present-or-Birthday-Gift-/261167925204?pt=UK_Collectables_AnimalCollectables_SM&hash=item3cced247d4 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Floating-Shark-Head-Fountain-for-Garden-Pond-Weird-Present-or-Birthday-Gift-/261167925204?pt=UK_Collectables_AnimalCollectables_SM&hash=item3cced247d4)
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That I could do something with...I like that, Kev.
I've made up a whole new rudder linkage and used rubber bellows this time. Just waiting on the glue to set hard, then it's back in the bath for further trials.
Rich
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Perishin' fish has got a better set of railings than I have...
Rich
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I think you have the teeth on back to front..................regards, Dave.
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I always have my corals in back to front, it's the only way they fit... :o
Fear not, Dave...they weren't on properly then, they are now. Apologies for the photo, the phone battery needs a charge.
Rich
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Reminds me of the mother in laws dentures, really scared our dog, pete
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Man, I hope your wife don't read that...
Rich
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Its ok rich she's got her own teeth , I like the look youve got , the colouring and shape re mind me of tin tins shark, where did you get the bull, pete
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I think I should have said hull, pete
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It started off as an MMB Sub Sonic, Pete...but sort of got slightly altered along the way.
Rich
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I've decided to rebuild the shark/Orca/whatever you want to call it...I'm not happy with the way it looks. I've had a chat to Mark @ MMB, he's moulding me up two Sonic lower hull sections in the same off white colour, and I've worked out a way of getting them to line up (no offence meant, Mark..) I've practically completed a new cylinder ready for it, so as soon as the hulls arrive I can get cracking on the new version.
I've also worked out how to get the two foreplanes (fins?) to work independently, so that will allow me to carry out barrel rolls underwater.
This is rapidly becoming an obsession now... ;D
Rich
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I've also worked out how to get the two foreplanes (fins?) to work independently, so that will allow me to carry out barrel rolls underwater.
Rich
With that dorsal fin I would hardly think barrel rolls would be possible. I wonder if you could put a leveler perpendicular to the normal alignment and keep the shark/orca fro tipping?
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when we got so close rich, my wallet was ready for the first order. I have got some rc plane project out of the way, so might return to the shark soon. I think the fins would need to be like ailerons on a plane for the rolls, but forget all that, just do one that dives to periscope depth, just for me, its nearly Christmas!
I was hoping Andy would surprise us with something :}
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Tom...here's a picture of an Orca that can do barrel rolls underwater...note the independent forward vanes(fins)and the large dorsal fin.
Paul...fear not, Andy is cracking on with the shark, but work commitments are slowing him down, plus he's up to his ears in little jobs for people, (such as the turbine for my tractor) I spoke to him the other night, and on top of all that, he's not been to well recently, so things are running slowly at the present.
Once the hulls arrive and I have an idea of what's going to be what, I'll let you know...
Rich
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Tom...here's a picture of an Orca that can do barrel rolls underwater...note the independent forward vanes(fins)and the large dorsal fin.
Rich
Rich,
It would not be the first time I was wrong or the second or ..... well you know what I mean!
Peace,
tom
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Hi Rich.
theres a dolphin here you may get some ideas from.
frank
http://www.modelluboot.de/ (http://www.modelluboot.de/)
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Frank, I've studied that, watched the video umpteen times, and examined the drawings very closely. In fact, I very nearly bought a kit from Norbert, but then common sense kicked in when I saw the price of it.
I'll probably use one or two of Norbert's ideas on the new one when it comes...the cylinder is 99% completed now, just waiting on the new 40mHz rx's to arrive from HobbyKing and it's all done.
Rich
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Hi Rich.
If the fish model don`t work out ya could always turn it into one of these very usefull objects. O0
Frank
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj138/farticus1/bottleopener_zpsc8e21dd7.jpg)
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Could also be useful for keeping little fingers away from grandad's boats... %)
Rich
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I'm now working with a Belgian gentleman (the one who built that superb all singing, all dancing Orca) to get my shark Mk 2 built. Don't ask me to write his name, I wouldn't have a clue where to start!
This one will be a full hulled version, using two MMB SubSonic bottom hulls, made for me by Mark's daughter Hannah (thanks Hannah!)
I'm using some of this chap's ideas on mine, independently operating front vanes(fins) to allow me to do underwater aquabatics, fixed tail fins to keep the creature level, and a full radio box built into the hull using 4mm thick styrene (courtesy of Andy and Debbie at Models By Design) for the bulkheads and the top flange, and the usual clear lid.
All the required parts on the way, so it's now down to playing the waiting game for them to arrive...still, it gives me time to tidy up my work area.
Rich
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The Belgian modeller is Raf Janssen.
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Ah, thanks Andy...I didn't think his Facebook name was his proper name.
Rich
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A quick update:
Andy (subculture) has the hulls and is doing a marvellous job on sorting them out so they will fit together. He's fitting flanges around both sections with locating pegs, and given both of them some heat treatment to bring them into shape. They now look so much better, I'm deeply indebted to him for doing this.
I have decided to go with a proper radio box this time round, using built in bulkheads, a top flange and a lexan top. I have all the materials needed, so as soon as the hulls are done I can get started almost right away.
The front fins (dive planes) are made and ready to install, these will control the depth of the shark, I've made them adjustable this time. A new motor, a new rx and a new esc are ready to install, plus an 11.1v 2250 lipo battery.
Rich
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Bulkhead templates laid loosely in place, and the front fins in more or less the position where they will be fitted. Might even spray them this afternoon ready to install.
Rich
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The two hull sections arrived today from Andy, and what a superb job he's made of them...they fit together properly now, and with the simple but effective method of locating them together, everything stays put.
He also made a new wtc for it, as the radio box wouldn't fit with the new flanges, so now it's full steam ahead on building the creature.
Thanks Andy..
Rich
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Hi Rich.
wot aboot a tartan set o` fins. you could call it Mac shark
Frank
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj138/farticus1/dfgh_zpsb4dad1ea.jpg)
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Get yer coat, Frank... ;D
Rich
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Hi,
Have you any contact details for the Belgian gent who made the Orca?
If I go into submarines that is the model I want.
Regards
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If you're a Facebook user, pop over to the Dive In group's page, Raf is a member there. If not, consider joining F/B, it's worth it just to join the Dive In group, especially if you're thinking of getting into submarines, and you don't have to use the rest of it if you don't wish to.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/133360626703083/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/133360626703083/)
There's loads of pics of the creature in the photos section, and you can contact him via the pm service.
Rich
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Raf's orca was really an adaptation of another hull. So, pretty much a one-off so I think it would be a lot of work to build one yourself, and that's assuming Raf sells the mouldings.
If you would like something sub aquatic and mammalian, Norbert Bruggen sells a very nice Dolphin kit. it isn't a cheap kit, but you will get something well thought out and engineered that will get you off to a flying start in this hobby. The finished models go like gangbusters on even a modest 540, and become seriously edgy when fitted with brushless motors.
Have a look here- http://modelluboot.de/KITS/Delfin_Ordner/Delfin.html
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Rich, you or Andy got anywhere with this yet?
Cant believe this turned into such a difficult project, I will get back to it soon, but still looking for something that I can buy!
Paul