Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: F4TCT on July 07, 2014, 06:39:19 PM

Title: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 07, 2014, 06:39:19 PM
Hi,


Has anyone ever had issues with their car having used supermarket fuel?


I have a 3.0 v6 diesel Audi A4 and religiously fill up at Morrisons and over a week ago, my car basically ground to a halt.


It was recovered to audi and they have found a catastrophic failure of the high pressure fuel system, and the entire system is contaminated with metal swarf from the pump. Audi said that this can only be caused by :


fuel does not meet BS EN 590 (too much bio in it for example)
there is water and/or unleaded mixed in
there are other contaminants - general filth and grime.


My partners grandad's IX35's filter was blocked with a waxy substance - the reason was the bad quality of fuel - again he used morrison's. Speaking to others, they have mentioned issues with other supermarkets, not just morrisons (to get the liable issue out of the way).


So yeah fairly annoyed, £10,000 repair bill  <:(


Ive emailed their insurance team and awaiting a response.


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: U-33 on July 07, 2014, 06:41:32 PM
£10,000 repair bill...ouch.


Rich
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: html on July 07, 2014, 06:53:53 PM
The only thing I have ever had is a Vauxhall Vectra not appearing to have the same power after filling up at a supermarket. Saying that I always use a supermarket for fuel due to the cost difference against the big boys.

Brian
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Jerry C on July 07, 2014, 07:03:13 PM
Sounds like Audi speak utter twaddle. Of course they're going to blame the fuel.  Are their fuel filters not working. Get the AA in and a lawyer. They'll soon back down. are there loads of cars around morrissons with fuel problems? I doubt it. You should see some of the fuel foisted on me around the world. We always take our own samples. We might use a few more filters but that's what they're for.
Don't let them get away with it.  Swarf in the pump is bad production or faulty gear. 
Jerry.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: sparkey on July 07, 2014, 07:21:27 PM
 >>:-( Sounds like blocked filter or dodgy pump unlikely to be fuel,supermarkets buy fuel on open market just like everybody else and oil companies have good quality control,although modern low carbon diesel can wax if left in the tank for a long time(8 months or more) this because of the higher content of bio,all in all I think your fault lies with the car's fuel system and not the fuel,by the way I have used supermarket diesel since they have been selling it and had no problems,  Ray. <*<
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: bikerdude999 on July 07, 2014, 07:22:57 PM
Yes I notice a difference between supermarket fuel and BP, I get 5mpg more from BP. I personally wouldn't be believing Audi about the pump failure, what year is it? Could just be old and worn, or faulty manufacturing. Could buy 4 more of my cars for that repair bill!!!
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Neil on July 07, 2014, 07:36:42 PM
I wouldn't think it Morrisons........but the bulk wholesaler...........

I use Morrisons, Tesco and Asda for my fuel depending on who is cheapest.............and then a couple of weeks ago I had problems with my diesel "misfiring"

Not something that a diesel will do............but it just felt like fuel starvation like on one of my old MG's that I have suffered with over the years....

syptoms like vaporisation in the carbs or the plugs dirty....everything that I had always grown acoustomed to on a petrol car..............and so booked it in to my fiat agent..........but before they could fit it in, I virtually run the full tank of fuel down to the red line.....had bought this from a road side garage ( not my usual, somewhere down Liverpool way.

Once full of good old Morrisons fuel, the car picked up and stopped doing it........

anyway it was booked in for a looking at and diagnostic tests......so took it.

They ran it through the tests.......took the filters off which contain sensors and all sorts of other tests............and came up with Fuel Contamination.............on the tank of fuel I had bought from the road side garage...................so, baring in mind that they all use the same bulk sellers at the refineries..........it's just the luck of the draw...............

I've been motoring since I was 16 and have only ever experienced this the once...............so it's just down to a bit of bad luck, and not Morrisons or any other supermarket station in my mind.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 07, 2014, 07:52:38 PM
I understand what you mean about the potential of it being a dodgy pump etc, however why has it only happened now?


It clearly states that the car cannot run on bio diesel, however i have read threads online where supermarkets are adding more and more bio and other additives to 'water' the fuel down to make even more money...


I just dont know where im going to turn here to be honest. The car brand new 4 years ago was 42k and today its worth probably 20k. (its quite a rare spec so maybe a tiny but more).


Spoke to my own insurance company and they said they might not even pay out at all if its morrisons issue, although I can see my premium being £10,500 next year instead of the normal £500. They have a habbit of adding costs on.


I can only go off what audi say, they know a lot more about tolerances of their parts than most do.


Somethings amiss somewhere....


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: sparkey on July 07, 2014, 07:53:55 PM
 ;)  Before I retired I was a maintenance manager in a large London prison and part of my job was testing the two 750KVA generators on load,we used to do this at weekends,one day I was doing this when the generators stated missing and I had to abort this as they were spluttering,on the Monday I called in the company that maintained the sets and the engineer found that there was a lot of water in the diesel as the sets were only two years old, I can only assume that the water came with the fuel delivery such is life,Ray. O0   
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: mrturbo553 on July 07, 2014, 08:46:26 PM
Dan just an idea but contact any taxi spots in town ,check with them if any of their drivers/ cars are having any problems ( as they will probably use more fuel than most ) Get your own fuel tested independently .
Aid
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 07, 2014, 08:48:43 PM
Good point.


what i forgot to mention is that the day i normally fill up (monday) the station was closed for no apparent reason. I returned the next day and it was open. thats the only fuel its had in it.


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: gingyer on July 07, 2014, 09:35:59 PM
Yeah we had the same issues at work
There is a higher level of bio stuff and additives in supermarket and also cheap fuel from shell/ esso
Some of our vehicles we clogging up and we were told to avoid them. My van was ok but the bosses A5 needed the quality fuel
If you check the BS EN numbers in the hand book of your car you will notice that they recommend that
You buy the dearer stuff for running your car.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 07, 2014, 09:39:12 PM
Yeah, hindsight an all  >>:-(


See i wonder if the damage to the pump could have been caused by trying to start the car without fuel in it. The return pipe was either full or empty... It was hard to tell without taking it off...


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: dreadnought72 on July 07, 2014, 11:01:46 PM
I am a Team Leader at a major UK supermarket's petrol station. (It's the Orange one, without giving too much away).

The facts are these:

After every delivery we have to take a tank reading to ensure there's no water anywhere in the system. If water is found (and it's not happened in the past six months I've been in charge, and we get a 40t delivery a day), then all the pumps fed by that tank have to be closed off - it's part of our licence conditions.

The stuff we get delivered comes from a refinery that services everyone. Some companies might add extra detergents and gloop for their premium/ultimate brands, but the stuff is basically all the same.

I own a diesel. I run it on supermarket fuel, and I bung in a diesel redex supplement once a month or so to cheer me up.

Audi are, in my opinion, having a laugh. Yes, diesel pumps in cars can shed metal bits - but I strongly doubt that supermarket fuel is the main problem. Otherwise we'd be hearing of thousands of cars in the same boat.

Andy
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 07, 2014, 11:11:13 PM
Well, id love to have the hindsight of just using shell for the time ive had the car and see if i find myself in the same boat.


I need to get onto audi again and suggest the idea of the pump running with no fuel in it.


Ive heard too many stories to not believe that somethings 'amiss' with supermarket fuel - be it power issues, clogged filters (mines not even 6 months old), or other fuel related things.


I duno, i guess theres no proof. Im the poor guy in the middle.


Morrisons and asda had that thing in 2007 where unleaded in the diesel shafted loads of engines and cost them about £10m. The thing is, i guess people are not like me, use the same station in my little routine. Maybe others do, but those people may not have the same high tolerance type of engines like you may find in a mondeo (them things will run on pig **** given the chance...)


I guess ultimately its my own fault for not using the 'good' stuff.


I'll post an update when I get one, although if i paid for the work and then tried to claim, I could have the car back by friday. Even if morrisons pay, i could be waiting a while for it to be investigated...


Ive put this on the VW Audi forum - as theres some right anoraks on there.


Dan



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Jerry C on July 07, 2014, 11:44:27 PM
While working on a 56000 tonne product we would load a cargo of Various fuels let's say Mobil. Over the course of the voyage the cargo would be bought and sold many times and could end up at any company's forecourt. Gasoline is gasoline and DERV is DERV and complies with a spec no matter who makes or sells it. The type of fuel is marked on the pump.  The type of fuel recommended for your car is found in the owners manual. Put the wrong stuff in your car at your peril. What Dreadnought says is quite right. Supermarkets get fuel on the spot market and probably loss lead as well but their fuel is ok. Audi are trying it on. 
Jerry.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 07, 2014, 11:53:21 PM
exactly the same as mine - http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5857824-Fuel-delivery-problem-immediate-amp-total-failure-3-0tdi-%93000135-Fuel-Rail-System-Pressure-P0087-012-Too-Low%94&p=79352717&viewfull=1 (http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5857824-Fuel-delivery-problem-immediate-amp-total-failure-3-0tdi-%93000135-Fuel-Rail-System-Pressure-P0087-012-Too-Low%94&p=79352717&viewfull=1)


it seems the min spec for bs en 590 is the min spec for the fuel pump - you decide who to blame, however if theres any trace of water at all, then the fault quickly develops... now who's to blame...


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Seaspray on July 08, 2014, 08:55:44 AM
Hi
Had my old 21 year old Pug a top engine rebuild and have started using a garage that sells regular diesel. They say it doesn't have any bio in it and the car doesn't stink as much now.

 The water in the diesel light comes on now and again as it did 20 years ago before bio was put in the diesel

There is about 5-7 pence difference between their diesel compared to supermarkets.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on July 08, 2014, 09:54:55 AM
however if theres any trace of water at all, then the fault quickly develops... now who's to blame...

Nightmare. Whoever you try to pin it on will just say it might have happened in your fuel tank. At this stage it's almost impossible to prove either way. And it is possible the pump just failed.
I think you may be lucky and get a 'consideration' from Audi, but that's probably going to be it.

As to Shell, about 25 years ago they introduced a new wonder petrol. Withdrew it a bit later when fingers were pointed regarding valve failures.

In answer to the original question we have a diesel Yaris now at C40k miles which mainly runs on Tesco fuel - no problems so far.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 08, 2014, 10:03:15 AM
I spoke to a few audi places this morning and none of them are aware of issues on the pump itself for the B8 model - mine, there were issues with the B7.


Yes proving it is always the issue, however i can only try my best. Dont know whether to get the car fixed, pay for it myself and then claim?


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 08, 2014, 10:05:22 AM
And it seems in 2010 morrisons made a huge change to fuel but withdrew it within the year something to the tune of a 70/30 mix with bio. Certainly out of spec - allegedly the bs en 590 stickers were taken off pumps to legalise it.


Either way, its gone through my engine.


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: dreadnought72 on July 08, 2014, 10:16:27 AM
There is about 5-7 pence difference between their diesel compared to supermarkets.

I think that's down to economies of scale as much as anything. The supermarkets can afford to make almost nothing on fuel, since it drives people into the main store, and they naturally have to bulk-buy compared to the smaller independent garages.

Andy
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 08, 2014, 10:18:02 AM
I bet they are making 20-30p a litre...
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: sparkey on July 08, 2014, 10:25:00 AM
I have been talking to a mate of mine this morning about this problem and he said his brother had a well known german make of 4x4, which he used to tow a caravan,the car was only 18 months old when the pump went,he took it to dealership under warranty and he was told that it did  not apply as the diesel he was using was at fault,it cost him £6,500 to fix it so he took the dealership to a small claims court and he was awarded the £6500 plus money for all the time the car was off the road came to quite a bit,might well be worth going done this line and see what happens the bad publicity might shake them into action,Ray.   
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 08, 2014, 10:26:40 AM
good outcome except the warranty ran out a year ago..



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: dreadnought72 on July 08, 2014, 10:43:53 AM
I bet they are making 20-30p a litre...

Divide that by six.

Andy
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: lankyandy on July 08, 2014, 12:28:28 PM
There was a review in a motoring magazine a few years back wer they tested super fuels verses standard fuels and supermarket fuels.essentially minimal dif found.super fuels proved slightly better at higher revs n supermarket fuels were slightly more variable but only by very small differences when being driven hard. Essentially I agree with most other.ther would be a lot of broken down audis if it was supermarket fuel.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Neil on July 08, 2014, 12:36:01 PM
I bet they are making 20-30p a litre...

sorry Dan.....but that figure is more like 1 - 3p per litre at most..........the rest goes to the refineries....transport cost and THE GOVERNMENT.......neil.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: wicker on July 08, 2014, 01:41:45 PM
when working on standby boats from Aberdeen I watched fuel tankers leave the fuel depot esso and supermaket wagon all from the same tanks
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Netleyned on July 08, 2014, 02:38:52 PM
Jet Petrol tankers used to fill the orange
supermarket in Grimsby and the others fill up in a line at the
Lindsey Oil Refinery down the road owned by Total.

Ned
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 08, 2014, 03:24:11 PM
Without starting an argument... why then is the markup from supermarkets such a closely guarded secret if its between 1-6p per liter. I suppose most customers would accept that - running costs etc....



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Stavros on July 08, 2014, 04:28:53 PM
Godfathers what absolute popycock that is being typed here..................FACT as Jerry is stating fuel is bought and sold by companies and is simply rebadged as their own...............Stanlow is cheshire has MANY different trankers from different sellers picking up their supplies.
 
AUDI are DEFO trying it on absolute .......WELL I CANT SAY IT HERE as I would get BANNED
 
I have used supermarket fuels in all my cars.........MMMM one is an AUDI.............NEVER had an issue,Mrs Stav's car a renault(yes I swore) uses supermarket fuel.........has it ever had a problem ........NO
 
 
Dave
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on July 08, 2014, 04:39:49 PM
Without starting an argument... why then is the markup from supermarkets such a closely guarded secret if its between 1-6p per liter. I suppose most customers would accept that - running costs etc....

Most retailers keep their markup a secret. Nothing special about supermarkets.

(One reason for all the shops attached to petrol stations is that the profit on a sandwich and a drink is probably more than that on the tank of fuel you bought at the same time. They can't survive on fuel alone.)
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: dreadnought72 on July 08, 2014, 04:43:34 PM
Plague speaks wisely.  %)

Andy
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Shipmate60 on July 08, 2014, 05:04:10 PM
Dan,
Your case does interest me so I did some research in general about VAG high pressure common rail diesels.
It seems there is a far higher rate of high pressure pump failures like yours across the range of engines.
All with similar symptoms.
VAG are blaming fuel/water in the fuel.
If it was the fuel at the supermarket then not just your Audi, but lots of VW's would have the same failure.
It seems that either water or wear caused by lower spec fuel is likely to have caused your fault.
It would take an independent specialist to apportion the cause or more likely the PROBABLE cause.


Bob
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Neil on July 08, 2014, 05:45:21 PM
and a tale of woe for you to consider here dan............

Unless you want to spend a lot of money having your pump and fuel analysed by an independent engineer, and then loosing it all in court I would cut your losses, by a pump off ebay from a wrecker and get a qualified diesel garage to fit it.......

I had problems with my 1.9 diesel scenic a few years ago...was recommended a garage that did diesel pumps........took it in to a place in longridge near preston.............they gave me a time of 48 hours to fix......

7 days later with no car and kids on half term hols.......I gave the company the ultimatum of getting it ready or I would pick it up on a transporter with all the bits in the boot................

went round at 16.00 hours with a transporter with me which cost me a stash.......the car was running so I thought..I Had to pay the guy up front....instead of the 400 quid he had verbally quoted.......he charged me 1300 quid........and wouldn't release the car till I paid cash.....I called the police who attended and told him that on the invoice they accepted credit cards so he was forced to accept a credit card...............and off I went..on the back of a transporter to the Renault agent as I didn't trust the guy................they diagnostically tested it......and told me the pump wasn't working correctly but as he'd disconnected the leads for the test, it was inconclusive..........and told me if any probs then bring it back to them or a test......

for about a mile down the road it ran ok and then BANG.........up in smoke.....and I mean smoke.........

I limped back to the garage at Blackpool (scenic agent) they lent me a courtesy ar.......told me to buy a second hand pump on the internet...150 quid.....and they fitted it for me for 200 quid..........less than the scumbag had originally quoted.........

I took the guy and my credit card company to court.................

now here comes the bad news..........because I didn't give the scumbag the opportunity to repair the damage by taking the car back to him..but going to a main agent.........I t was my fault and I had defaulted on the consumer rights given to me...............

so unless you have lots to spend and loose, I would cut your losses, don't bother with a court case, and just buy a new pump and have it fitted by a reputable dealer/garage that you know you can trust........because a judge doesn't want to be seen to be opening a can of worms and opening up a landmark case that could cost supermarkets billions if everyone jumps on the band wagon
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Jonty on July 08, 2014, 05:48:24 PM
Some interesting stuff here:

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/search/?type=question&q=supermarket+diesel (http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/search/?type=question&q=supermarket+diesel)

Worth asking him about your specific problem - he's really helpful.

Now your car is out of warranty take it to an independent Audi specialist for servicing and repairs.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: chris gillespie on July 08, 2014, 06:10:54 PM
For the past 10 years, ive had Audi A4 and VW transporter van
 
I have always bought supermarket, i refuse to spend the extra when it all is the same British standard, the extra is paying for the name the green sundial is sony the supermarket is bush, all the same components different market.
 
I have had no issues from either vehicle. Absolutely none, i still rip past people at lights even in the van  ;)
 
 
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 08, 2014, 06:42:09 PM
A fuel pump is the least of my worries neil, its the 6 x injectors @ £600 a piece, aswell as pumps, lines, other engine components that need replacing + the labour to do it. Tank has to come out, big big job to do it all.


I'll bet the damn car its the fuel! we'll see what the insurers at morrisons have to say tomorrow when i ring them.


Dan




Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Colin Bishop on July 08, 2014, 08:09:48 PM
I think you will have a hell of a job in pinning this on anyone, they'll all blame each other and any independent 'technical expert' will hedge their bets.

To use a cliché, at the end of the day you used perfectly reputable sources to fuel your car and you are entitled to expect that the vehicle engineering should accommodate this. There is no way now that you will ever be able to 'prove' that Morrisons had a dud batch of fuel in a certain filling station on a certain date. They will never admit to it even if it were to be true.

I think that with the constant pressure to reduce emissions and improve MPG, manufacturers are sailing very close to the wind in their engineering tolerances and it doesn't take much to cause the poor innocent punter problems.

In your case I would be inclined to think that it is up to the manufacturer to prove that it was not their fault that the components failed and that you were in some way negligent which is not the case. In view of the cost involved it may pay you to take legal advice on this point instead of chasing up various parties, all of whom will categorically deny responsibility.

As an example, some recent Mazda 6 cars have experienced a problem with timing chain stretch which if left uncorrected has resulted in destroyed engines. Naturally they have tried to avoid responsibility, particularly with cars that are out of warranty, but when pressed have often agreed to meet the cost of repairs. The real reason was that they had a defective batch of components.

I think you need to keep up the pressure on the manufacturer, you have done nothing wrong and it's their product which has broken.

Colin
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Jerry C on July 08, 2014, 08:47:48 PM
My car is a last model Jaguar X-type 2litre diesel. At 35000 miles the dual mass flywheel, clutch and starter motor failed. (All related parts and a common fault with most fuel efficient torquey engines). I bought the car at 3 years old with 20,000 on the clock from a Ford garage (it's a Mondeo in a dinner jacket) I have been with for 10 years. I researched the problem, got my facts right and agreed that I should pay some of the cost of replacement. The garage supplied a 12th variant clutch at cost and charged me for three hours labour. Cost to me £310 with a service thrown in and a 40,000 mile guarantee on all parts.
They're not all bad.
Jerry.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on July 08, 2014, 09:37:04 PM
A fuel pump is the least of my worries neil, its the 6 x injectors @ £600 a piece, aswell as pumps, lines, other engine components that need replacing + the labour to do it. Tank has to come out, big big job to do it all.

Rather than messing around with loads of new and expensive parts at £10k, it might be cheaper to get a complete engine from a scrapper and swap it in.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on July 08, 2014, 09:40:19 PM
Thought about it, dont like the idea of someone else's engine to be honest...


I'm the type of person to find it hard to accept a bodily organ transplant...  :-X


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 15, 2014, 04:43:32 PM
Car was fixed and now broken again...


This time the fault is of a different nature.


Cars been running so well since the fuel system was replaced and I had to perform an emergency stop to avoid hitting a child in the road. Immediately afterwards, a warning light came on with the message of 'Gearbox Malfunction' and then went away again.


Anyway, it popped on now and again over the last week or so until a few days ago where it happened 4 times in a row, which is fine except that the gearbox (an s tronic double clutch thing) goes into lockdown and allows no power at all. This is dangerous when trying to pull out of junctions etc etc - which is when the warning seems to prefer to show itself.


Went into Audi and they said its safe to drive and probably wiring issue, come back on 1st September and we will have it apart. getting ridiculous now, the things practically un-driveable.


I bought an old audi many years ago at 141,000 miles, I sold it on 181,000 and i know its still going strong, never had an issue with it.


I have never known such a car with bad luck as mine. 2 months old and a pothole destroyed the nearside front wheel.


The shortly afterwards, i was trundling along the Pickering moors road and a crow decided to strike my headlight cover and cracked it - £600 replacement apparently but never been an issue MOT wise as it doesnt affect the beam.


So there we have it folks, my life in a nutshell - bad luck!


might make a film...


Dan  :((
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Netleyned on August 15, 2014, 05:02:26 PM
Amazin!
The Oz boys have roo bars on their utes
On the NYM vorsprungers need crowbars %%

Ned
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: sparkey on August 15, 2014, 05:37:13 PM
 >>:-( Hi,Dan,you get cars like that just bad luck from the start,many years ago I bought a ford escort from new this car was like a magnet everything hit it ,only had 2 days when a lorry hit it while parked outside the house 3 weeks being repaired from then on everytime I parked it another scratch or dent appeared give up in the end,had it for 3 years got written off after a bus ran into the back of me at a Zebra  crossing and then I had to sue bus company for the money,they said I had stopped too quickly what was I supposed do run the people on the crossing over,ended up costing them twice as much in the long run with legal costs and paying me for the fact I didn't have a car,only time I have owned a white car never again,Ray. >>:-( >>:-( >>:-( >>:-(   
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Netleyned on August 15, 2014, 06:04:08 PM
Flippancy aside though,
my latest car is a pain.
I bought it as all the ones I wanted had to come by sea
and to get the right spec had waiting time.
Needed a boat friendly car and a Vauxhall Astra sport tourer
could be delivered next day.
Two weeks into ownership Please have a service light on
A week to find a bit of carbon had shorted out a sensor.
Carbon after two weeks.
I have been hit twice, it jumps out of second, normally on
a roundabout, no fault found by garage.
Today Please have a service light after a service in May
A week or more before it can be looked at.
Another German car (Opel)
Have they lost the plot?

Ned
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: U-33 on August 15, 2014, 07:06:58 PM
When me and 'er that was indoors were still together, we had a brand spanking new Escort 1600 auto on the  Motability scheme. From day one we had trouble with the brakes, it just would not stop any sense, so back to the dealers it went.


Because I knew the service manager pretty well, he did some digging into the car's history for me...apparently it had stood in an open storage field for the best part of eight months before we had it, and because of that, all sorts of nasty things had got into the suspension and braking systems.


The dealer fitted two complete front struts with new discs etc, and two new rear drums with all the other bits needed...that cured the problem until I reversed into the diesel shed at work trying to avoid an incoming dustcart and ripped most of the back end right off it.


Rich
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on August 15, 2014, 07:51:23 PM
Anyway, it popped on now and again over the last week or so until a few days ago where it happened 4 times in a row, which is fine except that the gearbox (an s tronic double clutch thing) goes into lockdown and allows no power at all

Not helpful really but I was reading an article the other day and regarding the Golf it mentioned that the dsg boxes could be troublesome at high mileages. Maybe this isn't that uncommon, though you don't say what miles yours has.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 15, 2014, 07:57:28 PM
just ticked past 58,000. car is not even 4 and a half years old yet. serviced on time, every time.



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: plastic on August 15, 2014, 08:23:00 PM
All these gremlins is why I only buy the same cars as the 'rally-boys'. BMW 3-series, Fords, Vauxhalls and VWs.

With all those lads modifying their motors, practically any fault that could ever occur is fully documented on the forums and there's normally a Youtube of how to fix it yourself.

Much cheaper.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: tr7v8 on August 15, 2014, 08:25:41 PM
This is why I run a petrol. Common Rail Diesels once out of warranty are a ticking bomb for the wallet. My Alfa was off the road 3 weeks whilst everyone had a go at it. Including Bosch HQ. Eventually it turned out to be the HP Pump which was £750. Yup a German bit on an Italian car. These pumps are made to fantastically fine tolerances, generate very high pressure (think 10,000s of PSI) & are frequently electronically coded to the engine. There is also a massive lack of knowledge on Common Rail diesels as regards diagnosis.  The HP pumps are £1,000s of pounds as well.
With both Jaguar diesels I ran only on Shell VPower, kept the warranty up £900 per year & flogged them when I couldn't warrant them again.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 15, 2014, 08:28:34 PM
precisely the failure i had.


min spec of pump is the min spec of bs en 590, no tolerance at all for anything naughty in the diesel.


mighty car, mighty engine, mighty box, just a shame greed lets it down.


I got another letter back off morrisons written by a guy who gets clearly turned on by fuel, and mentioned the fuel comes from vopak teesside.... he failed to mention a number of questions aswell. I think another letter is needed!


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Neil on August 15, 2014, 08:55:42 PM
a Friday afternoon/Monday morning car....when the workforce couldn't be arsed, or were on a two day bender hangover...........

I bought a brand new Peugeot 205GTi in 1992.had to wait 6 weeks for the colour I wanted..........

had 36 faults in just over 18 months.......drove me to despair..........not niggly little  faults.....a blown engine, seized gearbox, water an inch deep in the foot wells when it rained...two new sets of discs on the front within 8 months........the catalogue was endless......it was crap..............and it came back from each repair with a new fault............and Peugeot couldn't care less........with incredibly poor after sales service.

It was so bad that I was told by the sales man that the first service was free...........when I got to the service I was told I would have to pay...........I refused so thee service dept refused to do the service...

so I parked my car over the service bay entrance so they couldn't get any other car in or out of the service bay.......it was a busy Saturday morning %% %% %%

they then tried to trolley jack it away and I told them that if they touched it I would call the police and charge them with criminal trespass........they relented and asked me to leave something as a deposit whilst I  waited for my car and then to go home to get my cheque book once the service had been done........so I took my trousers off,, gave them to the service manager and sat in the showroom with no strides on......just my shirt and underpants................they finally relented and gave me the service, and my strides back foc.............and told me to go get my car serviced elsewhere next time.................. {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 15, 2014, 08:59:51 PM
fool you for buying french rubbish! :D


excellent story,  :kiss:




Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on August 15, 2014, 09:42:23 PM
just ticked past 58,000. car is not even 4 and a half years old yet. serviced on time, every time.
Just about run in then.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Shipmate60 on August 15, 2014, 09:55:16 PM
More like run out (of patience!!)


Bob
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: pugwash on August 15, 2014, 11:44:02 PM
I run on any old petrol for my RAV4 - last one was honourably decommissioned after
18 yrs and not break-downs- this one 11 yrs and no breakdowns. Wife has now switched
to Diesel Fiesta - not impressed except for the fuel bills

Geoff
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: grendel on August 16, 2014, 07:35:11 AM
I buy old Volvo's, my latest V70 had 110,000 miles on it and cost me just under £1000, it gets run on whatever fuel  is cheapest, gets about 35mpg and gets me the 112 miles a day to and from work, when the car dies I will get another. none of my Volvos has ever failed to get to 200,000 miles, and I had one still running well, but with varoius electrical issues that I finally gave up on at 265,000 miles.
generally round here asdas fuel is cheapest, but the esso garage 100 yards up the road is always within about 0.2p per litre (asdas is 126.7p - Esso 126.9p at the moment)
Grendel
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 16, 2014, 08:56:05 AM
interestingly, everyone on the car forums say run it on bp ultimate, a nice £1.45 a litre but you get better performance and better economy.


I have been running my car on that and not really found any performance increase at all - then again i like to be different.



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on August 16, 2014, 12:41:17 PM
interestingly, everyone on the car forums say run it on bp ultimate, a nice £1.45 a litre but you get better performance and better economy.


I have been running my car on that and not really found any performance increase at all - then again i like to be different.

Funny thing is that BP Ultimate is only 97ron (standard u/l is 95ron). Tesco Momentum is 99ron. Shell don't seem to advertise what their top fuel (V-Power?) is for ron.

Also the idea that because 'premium brand' and supermarket tankers come out of the same refinery or storage depot they must have the same fuel in them is daft. It is possible they get loaded with the same stuff, but these places are very sophisticated and it's quite likely that different blends will get put in different tankers (or indeed in different tanks of the same tanker).
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 16, 2014, 06:21:34 PM
All this stuff is hush hush for a reason.....


thats the way i look at it.



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Netleyned on August 16, 2014, 06:42:19 PM
You are right there Dan.
Most things you buy you can touch, smell
look at and decide whether to buy or not.
At the pumps you have to go on the blurb
put forward by the oil companies.
I have tried cheap versus premium and
never noticed the difference.
Apart from back in the sixties my Dommies
 seemed to run better on National Benz ole.

Ned
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Nordsee on August 16, 2014, 07:51:09 PM
Hi
Had my old 21 year old Pug a top engine rebuild and have started using a garage that sells regular diesel. They say it doesn't have any bio in it and the car doesn't stink as much now.

 The water in the diesel light comes on now and again as it did 20 years ago before bio was put in the diesel

There is about 5-7 pence difference between their diesel compared to supermarkets.
There is Bio in all fuels, you may only have 5% , but here in Germany and also Holland and France, there is 10% and has been for the last 4 years. As E10 Super, gives poorer Performance and consumption, about 10%, it is about 4Cents cheaper than old Super. I don't buy it as the car runs rough, and the saving is Zero.  You should check that your car can use E 10, many can't, it destroys seals and pump membranes of Injection Systems, both Petrol and Diesel. As a matter of Interest, new Mercedes "Sprinters" with Diesel have a warning sticker on the filler cap instructing NOT to use Bio Diesel.Audi are trying it on, how they can Charge 10Grand for repairs, is stupid,  Get the AA to chase them up, or better still your Local Radio or TV Broadcastor, that invariably brings positive results
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: cos918 on August 16, 2014, 07:51:30 PM
on the petrol front. If you have a high power turbo car 300+ BHB then you will want to use high grade fuel. If you dont and give it some stick you can get detonation   and or melt pistons. On any thing else it is a wast of time. Yes you might get a few more miles out of it. but for then increased price per liter you could have brought more of the  normal grade fuel ,which would equal the same range if not more. Had several company car all done 150K miles + . They ran an diesel   brought from supermarkets or main fuel retailers but not BP. Never had any problems.Fuel  tank fill it wright up then run till empty . Sounds like your car not as good as Audi would like you to believe . Have you looked at social media and seen if people in the same area have had any problems.


john
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Nordsee on August 16, 2014, 07:57:24 PM
I bet they are making 20-30p a litre...
In your dreams, maybe 2 or at the most 3 pence, that is why Service Stations sell Papers, books and Food etc. Can't survive on just Petrol.
  Hands up if you can remember the 60s, before Wilsons Bunglers took over? Jet was 3 Shillings and 11 pence a gallon. 5 gallons, with 5 shots of Redex, served, nor Self Service, cost a Pound, oh happy days!! ( Callaghan put an instant 6 P the first week he was Chancellor and a further 6 P the following April .)
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Nordsee on August 16, 2014, 08:04:31 PM
on the petrol front. If you have a high power turbo car 300+ BHB then you will want to use high grade fuel. If you dont and give it some stick you can get detonation   and or melt pistons. On any thing else it is a wast of time. Yes you might get a few more miles out of it. but for then increased price per liter you could have brought more of the  normal grade fuel ,which would equal the same range if not more. Had several company car all done 150K miles + . They ran an diesel   brought from supermarkets or main fuel retailers but not BP. Never had any problems.Fuel  tank fill it wright up then run till empty . Sounds like your car not as good as Audi would like you to believe . Have you looked at social media and seen if people in the same area have had any problems.


john
A modern car with "Black Box" automatically adjust ignition Timing to the fuel used. My old Colt was designed to run on 91 Octane fuel, or Benzine as it was known here, when that fuel went I had to put 95 Octane in, no change in running, just on how much I paid. I went to Croatia years ago and the only Pump fuel was 83 Octane, put that in and away she went, a bit slower but no Pinking or such. Mind you it is a Japanese car, and it will run on Ethanol alone. How old is this Audi?  Gaurantee gone? remember EU Law says that there is a Users expectation of Extended use, so they have to accept responsability even when the Warranty expires-
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Nordsee on August 16, 2014, 08:07:19 PM
Funny thing is that BP Ultimate is only 97ron (standard u/l is 95ron). Tesco Momentum is 99ron. Shell don't seem to advertise what their top fuel (V-Power?) is for ron.

Also the idea that because 'premium brand' and supermarket tankers come out of the same refinery or storage depot they must have the same fuel in them is daft. It is possible they get loaded with the same stuff, but these places are very sophisticated and it's quite likely that different blends will get put in different tankers (or indeed in different tanks of the same tanker).
V Power here is 103 Octane. A bit pointless really as most Fuel Injection Systems and Ignitions don't recognize anything over 99.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: grendel on August 16, 2014, 08:20:38 PM
I had a Lada once, it had a lever on the distributor, marked in octane, use a lower octane - move the lever.
Grendel
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Nordsee on August 16, 2014, 08:28:30 PM
Old Opel (Vauxhall ) Cadets had a Switch under the bonnet to Switch from 91 to 95 Octane.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on August 16, 2014, 10:23:21 PM
on the petrol front. If you have a high power turbo car 300+ BHB then you will want to use high grade fuel. If you dont and give it some stick you can get detonation   and or melt pistons. On any thing else it is a wast of time.

Indeed, which is why I checked up on which brands had what RONs. I had a supercharger installed which came with a 99RON tune, but as I found 97 is a common 'premium' I got a revised tune for 97 to avoid grenading the pistons - but at slight a loss of power.
A premium fuel might have a slightly higher calorific value (energy content) which is why you might get slightly better mpg/performance, but that isn't specifically a function of the octane rating.

Modern cars do often have knock sensors (the "black box" referred to above) but that's a backstop against occasional problems or misfuelling. You should use the correct fuel most of the time or you will eventually damage the engine.


When abroad be aware that the octane rating is not the same everywhere. There are 3 different versions - RON, MON and AKI (there is an article in Wikipedia with a table that explains it).
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 16, 2014, 10:43:56 PM
some folk on the audi forum are mentioning stuff like e30 and allsorts! they seem to be different ratios of bio diesel mix.


How on the holy earth is the average joe meant to know all this stuff?


this got me thinking - which is a very dangerous thing to do. Nothing is as it is really is it... Here are a few examples...


the advertised fast food double cheeseburger never presents itself like the adverts...


water isnt 'water', each water authority seems to have its own opinion on what they want to add to it...


Gas isnt 'gas', different parts of the country have more 'potent' gas than other's - calorific value.


the thing on ebay didn't arrive as expected....


the wife didn't turn out as expected....


Im sorry to cause some sort of mass suicide here which may happen listening to me for too long, however it  annoys the bloody marrow in my bones to be honest. Why cant something just be one thing, instead of a million other variants...


Why cant diesel just be diesel, a high quality or low quality - whatever, however then why cant audi make a car which runs on the diesel.


I know a bloke whos boat is so old it's engine will literally run on pig sh/t...


anyway, someone please feel free to educate me on the apparent existence of about 1 million types on diesel.


Dan



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: derekwarner on August 16, 2014, 11:46:25 PM
%) ...Guys....what goess around comes around......my dear old dad taught me to drive in a 1949 Ford Prefect utility..... 

%) hand painted OLIVE green

{-) it jumped out of second gear

ok2 OHV 4 cylinder engine

<*< spark advance switch on the dash board

:kiss: Chenney helical hose adjustment type clip around the distributor cap for further advance /retard corrections ......

The image below is of the same  OHV 4 cylinder engine....but I do not see the distributor cap adjustment  >:-o  ....Derek

Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: meechingman on August 17, 2014, 09:18:39 AM
My father was a coatal tanker captain in the war (hairy if you're being bombed!) and on into the late 1950s. He always used to tell the tale of coming into the Regent oil depot at Shoreham and whilst discharging, watching the road tankers from all the various major brands coming in to load up - all from the same huge tank!


I just buy where it's cheapest, which means supermarkets. Never had the slightest issue, I'm pleased to say. The only time I had water contamination, I too immediately contacted the fuel station (Texaco, FWIW), who said the same thing that dreadnought did about the control measures in place. Took it to my usual garage and they found a pinhole in the fuel line that had let water in, one tiny drop at a time. Eventually, it built up enough to cause a problem. Replaced the pipe, didn't drain the tank but ran slightly lumpily on a petrol/water/meths mixture for a day or so until topping up the tank with fresh fuel. Problem solved.


And I'm also very dubious about the Audi explanation. Swarf from the fuel pump? Bad fuel wouldn't cause that, obviously. And, as has been said, what about the fuel filter? Did in not do its job?
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Nordsee on August 17, 2014, 09:35:01 AM
A fuel pump is the least of my worries neil, its the 6 x injectors @ £600 a piece, aswell as pumps, lines, other engine components that need replacing + the labour to do it. Tank has to come out, big big job to do it all.


I'll bet the damn car its the fuel! we'll see what the insurers at morrisons have to say tomorrow when i ring them.


Dan
How can any Company justify 600 Pound for an Injector? Rubbish, the Price of Spares should be investigated, this is Rip Off City, Big time.! here in Germany many owners buy Skoda spares instead of VW and Audi. many bits are identical, apart from the Prices! 
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: morley bill 1 on August 17, 2014, 09:38:11 AM
I have run Toyota/s for the last 15 years fill up at the cheapest that I pass anywere on the road starts first turn and runs smooth as a buhler motor......Bill......
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: inertia on August 17, 2014, 10:51:14 AM
How can any Company justify 600 Pound for an Injector?
What's to justify? They just stick it on the bill regardless.
Inchcape Toyota blissfully charged me £12.01 for a CR2016 button cell which I can get for 25p. Needless to say I removed it, replaced it with a Comp-Shop one and took it back for a refund.
However when you can't obtain an equivalent part elsewhere e.g. an injector, then you have the choice of either paying whatever they chose to ask for or having a dead car. I think the logic must run along the lines of "if you can afford a car like that then you can afford the silly price of the spares".
I fill up at ASDA 'cos it's the cheapest, but then I run a Toyota MPV - which is not quite the same thing as Dan's snarling 300+ BHP beast.
I bet he doesn't buy another Audi.  8)
DM
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: GAZOU on August 17, 2014, 12:17:53 PM
My elder daughter had an AUDI A3.
One day she is locked inside.
 Impossible to go out
Impossible to lower windows.

She calls the service repair
Impossible to open the car

They manage to go up the car on the tow truck.
My daughter crossed PARIS in her car on the tow truck.

They cut the hood
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: GAZOU on August 17, 2014, 12:18:20 PM
She is going to buy a donkey
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: davidm1945 on August 17, 2014, 01:06:24 PM

My daughter crossed PARIS in her car on the tow truck.


If you have to cross Paris by car this is probably the best way to do it!
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: inertia on August 17, 2014, 05:09:56 PM
She is going to buy a donkey
Ah! 100% Bio fuel!
DM
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Netleyned on August 17, 2014, 05:23:13 PM
Why not get a metro  :D

Ned
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: sparkey on August 17, 2014, 05:25:54 PM
 ;) That's more of a pig. {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: inertia on August 17, 2014, 08:24:48 PM
Why not get a metro  :D

Ned

You are a silly boy................. On the other hand didn't they make a turbo-nutter-lunatic 4WD V6 rally version? Was it called MG 6R4 or something? Might be rather jolly fun toddling down to Waitrose in one of those, what?
DM
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Shipmate60 on August 22, 2014, 11:00:28 PM
Dan,
By chance I was talking to a feller who works in our local refinery.
I asked him about supermarket fuel.
His reply was don't use that cr*p.
It is the cheapest fuel available as it doesn't have the additives of the dearer fuels.
And yes the refinery DOES have a tank for "supermarket" fuels.
It will depend if your engine requires a top end fuel or anything including used chip fat!!!


Bob
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 22, 2014, 11:03:44 PM
Thanks for that Bob  :-))


straight from the horses mouth so it seems!


The bottom line is, it barely meets spec.


Its like doing a job or task, you always try to exceed requirements - i do anyway, when it comes to fuel, it seems to be another story!


Dan
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Neil on August 23, 2014, 12:14:07 AM
You are a silly boy................. On the other hand didn't they make a turbo-nutter-lunatic 4WD V6 rally version? Was it called MG 6R4 or something? Might be rather jolly fun toddling down to Waitrose in one of those, what?
DM

yes they did, Dave....made the obligatory 200 for homologation, and then found that they were outlawed after the first few series racing that most were never sold for racing......... they were so raucous and unfit for road use that most never made it to the road either without being detuned to some extent, and went into collectors hands as show pieces..........last one I saw in the classic papers went for auction with an estimated price of 200K, and failed to sell...............they were awesome beasts in rally trim

here was a cheep one for sale, lol

http://www.xtreme-uk.net/performance-cars/detail.asp?ID=441
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Netleyned on August 23, 2014, 09:36:00 AM
I meant the Paris Metro  Doh %% %% %%


Ned
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: tobyker on August 23, 2014, 05:44:18 PM
Not the one in Texas, then!
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: dreadnought72 on August 23, 2014, 09:26:16 PM
Thanks for that Bob  :-))

Ok.  >:-o

Strikes me that you want to read what you want to read. No matter what the evidence.

Other posters have said that that supermarket fuels are the same as any others. (Same refinery, same contents).  I work selling supermarket fuel: some days we get in it Big Orange Tankers, some days we don't. It's all the flippin' same.

Add a diesel cleaner to your engine now and again if you're unsure. Or maybe a pint of petrol. Both the same. Otherwise, stop cherry-picking the replies.

Andy

Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 23, 2014, 09:32:16 PM
Andy, defend your employers all you like.


I've said before aswell as most people who seem to have issues, its supermarket fuel. cheap for a reason....


however there's clearly something amiss with the whole setup of fuel given the hush hush stigma attached to profits/markups and the like.


Ive seen the audi TPI relating to the issue, I used one supermarket fuel each week, I know two other people with fuel issues (albeit not as bad as mine) - using the same station.


without sounding like a snob, because Im really not - i used to pull the audi up to a pump, and each time it was the best car in the place. everyone else had alsorts of cars, decent in the sense of the word although the engines certainly more run of the mill and more tolerant to rubbish.


I guess its my fault, it always is......
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: dreadnought72 on August 23, 2014, 09:42:01 PM
Defend my employers?

That's what you think I'm doing?

See you.



Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 23, 2014, 09:48:26 PM
I don't know what your doing, nor do i wish to spoil your evening arguing,


However nobody really knows the truth do they, except those in the 'know' who are probably masons...


the FACT is this - read the forums on fuel problems - all supermarkets... performance issues - all supermarkets.... failures - all supermarkets....


somethings going on, what i don't know but given what ive read by people in the know, theres more rubbish in fuel than there is good. Ive learnt this the hard way. The fuel they sell barely makes specification.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Shipmate60 on August 23, 2014, 10:17:21 PM
Up until I chatted to the man involved I too thought that supermarket fuel was the same.
What makes me think something is amiss is he turned down 20p a litre off supermarket fuel.
All I can say is to turn down that sort of saving EVEN ON 1 TANKFUL shows the depth of his belief.
His words were "how do you think supermarkets can sell the fuel so much lower than service stations that struggle to make 3p a litre".
As I have stated (as an Engineer) the run of the mill engines will not show any problems.
High power turbo or high compression ratio engines might.


Bob

Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 23, 2014, 10:25:29 PM
one things for sure, the government are laughing all the way to the bank.... literally.... until they waste it. i'll stop there - no political views allowed an' all that!


although, i must say, i only used morrisons for the miles thing and generally being the cheapest it seemed the best return, however over the last year, i ventured down the nectar route and more recently though bp aswell as other retailers and I think its probably the best return for the best quality.


My dads mate, hes a CAD guy, mainly draws pipes, i assume for nuclear installations given the secrets act he has to sign and the fact he wont utter a word, he's in the know. Im sure many others of other disciplines are too....
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Colin Bishop on August 23, 2014, 10:28:12 PM
I was driving in Canada recently and the pumps all have three grades of fuel (petrol) at different octane ratings. The interesting thing was that each one was labelled as to what it was best suited to which, to paraphrase, were:

1. Very basic but should keep your engine turning over - You cheapskate!
2. Better quality, you really need this to keep your engine sweet and feel good about yourself.
3. Try this one and leave everyone else for dust!

This seemed to be a bit of a con to me as engines are tuned to match a certain octane rating and anything more than that should not increase performance. On the other hand I do think that modern engines, which are now critically engineered to meet emissions regulations, do benefit from the additives that you will get if you purchase a 'named' fuel rather than the generic supermarket versions. The additives should help keep the system cleaner and help maintain performance.

OK, old diesels will probably run happily on used cooking oil but not modern ones with all the emission control gadgets they are fitted with.

I buy almost all my petrol from our local independent filling station which sells Total fuel which is supposed to contain beneficial additives. It's not the cheapest place in the area by 1p-2p per litre but if it were to close down then the nearest alternative is several miles away and I regard the bit extra as well worth while in supporting a local business and amenity.

Colin

Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 23, 2014, 10:33:14 PM
i think where folk get the performance thing from is they use supermarket fuel (which probably makes the car slower) and then move onto the proper spec stuff like bp and actually feel what the car is meant to be like.


then again, dont think the government help buy making most of the price of a litre of fuel pure tax, making a price war which leads to cost saving and ultimately poor quality. 
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Colin Bishop on August 23, 2014, 11:02:37 PM
I suspect it's nothing more complicated than the fact that the cheapo fuels allow the engines to get crudded up more quickly than the premium fuels with detergents and additives to keep the injectors clean etc. Some engines can cope with the cheaper stuff better than others, particularly the older ones which are less sophisticated. That is why some cars run happily on supermarket fuel and others become temperamental. The engineering tolerances in the latest cars are very tight and they don't take kindly to low spec fuels. I have heard that the increasing percentage of vegetable oil in diesel fuels is giving some manufacturers a real headache and if you have a new diesel car and look in the handbook it will often specify the maximum percentage of veggie oil that the engine can cope with which is almost the same as what the pumps are now delivering!

Personally I think that modern diesels have become too complicated and delicate in their operation (and very expensive!) which is why I have switched back to petrol in my latest car and only a very small loss in MPG which is covered by the cheaper cost of petrol.

Colin
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 23, 2014, 11:09:35 PM
Colin,


CORRECT!


the min spec of BS EN 590 is the same as the high pressure fuel pump on my car, no tolerance for rubbish at all.


to me, diesel was diesel, and im sure most of the population assume the same.


amazing what a bit of research does.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on August 24, 2014, 12:19:52 AM
The fuel they sell barely makes specification.

Which is all it has to do. If the car manufacturer says use (eg) 95RON to BS XXX and the fuel meets that spec, then any problems must be due to the car not being up to spec. The named brands may have more or different additives but they are not required, merely (one hopes) slightly beneficial.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on August 24, 2014, 12:26:34 AM
to me, diesel was diesel, and im sure most of the population assume the same.

Well, most of the population don't know or care about differences in things technical unless/until it actually affects their life in some way. Like concrete - there are many, many types and none of them set by drying. But not many people work with it themselves.
But I'm surprised an apparently technical person like you didn't at least know that there is winter diesel and summer diesel.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on August 25, 2014, 01:36:16 AM
 
Be fair,
 
I didn't know that either, an I am a "technical" person,
concrete hydrates, thats why Ice is used when concrete batching such as on dams but "technical" at what?????????????????
 
Supermarket fuel accounts for the majority of fuel sold here in OZ, to the extent that the duopoly, namely Woolworths and Coles are under investigation for all sorts of things, pricing etc but hey the Government is weak and they, Woolworths and Coles, are too big so nothing will happen.
 
The other 'good' thing is we are now shutting down all our refineries and are importing all fuel rather than process our own its cheaper to import Petrol from????????????????.
 
Fuel Quality, brands, etc now means nothing.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: derekwarner on August 25, 2014, 02:53:02 AM
 %).......& RAAArty says....... "its cheaper to import Petrol from?" ............PETRONAS in Malaysia...or Singapore..........

It was reported that the largest single refinery in Singapore can daily produce approx. 10 fold of the total Australian production of cracked fuel output

We sell our coal, iron ore & LPG away at rock bottom give away prices  >>:-( ...yet our OZ fuel is still based upon the Singapore per litre price in US$

This was courtesy of a previous OZ Prime Minister ....Mr Paul Keating. :o ...[also a part owner of a Malaysian pig farm  O0] ....

  :embarrassed:...& I am not technical.......Derek
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: NFMike on August 25, 2014, 12:40:44 PM
Be fair,
 
I didn't know that either, an I am a "technical" person,
concrete hydrates, thats why Ice is used when concrete batching such as on dams but "technical" at what?????????????????

Sorry my friend, no offence intended. I generally find that 'technical' people, being engineers, scientists, or 'hobby' technicians for example, are interested in such stuff and tend to just accumulate snippets of information. Obviously not all will learn everything there is, but F4TCT is an aviation person where things like fuel quality are somewhat important (eg. water in your fuel can freeze at altitude - which can be embarrassing), so I was a little surprised he thought there was just 'diesel'.


Importing petrol makes perfect sense if you don't extract enough crude locally to refine to meet all your own needs. A 'mega' refinery will usually do the job cheaper than a small local one and if you have to ship liquid in anyway why not ship refined fuel instead of crude?
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 25, 2014, 07:43:32 PM
to be fair,


we use avgas, 100LL its £2 a litre for a reason. its blue and we check for water at the first flight of the day.


the newer engines can use normal mogas although the higher octane the better.


the very rare diesel aircraft use jet a1 - different ball game all together.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Dannypenguin on August 25, 2014, 08:31:55 PM
Although, I'm quite late in this thread, I just wanted to show and ask something...although this is clearly not scientific, if you search for 'Tesco contaminated fuels' or 'Sainsbury's contaminated fuels' into Yahoo!, see how many news stories there are. Then search for Texaco or Gulf contaminated fuels and see how many news stories there are...Fair enough the media might be slightly biased but still, if they all fill from the same tank, why are the higher end forecourts not getting these problems reported (not meant sarcastically)?  :-)
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 25, 2014, 08:34:07 PM
exactly, its the 'ends' of production going to the supermarkets...


has to be. its all hush hush for a reason as i said before.


seems to be a huge divide on opinion on the matter - naturally i guess.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Neil on August 25, 2014, 08:34:51 PM
the very rare diesel aircraft use jet a1 - different ball game all together.
that's why I've never seen an aeroplane filling up down the local supermache'
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 25, 2014, 08:38:17 PM
hahaha.  :-))


jet a1 runs well in a diesel car though!
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: timg on August 26, 2014, 07:20:09 AM
Hi all
After reading all of this over the last few weeks I have started to use shell and BP instead of the supermarkets  , for me its easier spending the  extra pound at the petrol station instead of possibly hundreds at the garage,  not sure if I'm getting more mpg's yet but time will tell.

Dan , I hope you get it all  sorted out and you get something back from the supermarket....


Spud
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: plastic on August 26, 2014, 09:33:44 AM
I've never bothered worrying about petrol types and mpg too much because the biggest variable in my driving is me.

Some days, the traffic is a bit busy so I drive slow and don't even bother trying to fight my way through to save a bit of time - probably good mpg.

Other days, I get a clear road so I 'enjoy' driving a bit more - probably much worse mpg.

As this varies over the time it takes to empty a tankful, then I can't accurately predict my 'target' mpg.

If I want good overall mpg, I should buy a car with a little engine.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Grumpy Dave on August 26, 2014, 10:12:35 PM
I thought jet a1 was basically kerosene not diesel and used in jet engines.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: F4TCT on August 26, 2014, 10:16:46 PM
it is, jet engines work on compression as diesels do.


it 100% legit works in a diesel. So does heater paraffin stuff.  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Peter Fitness on August 27, 2014, 02:22:44 AM
In our part of Australia I have only ever seen 2 kinds of diesel, truck and car. As far as I can tell the only difference is in the size of the nozzle, the truck pumps are usually fast flow, so therefore a bigger nozzle and hose. My 4WD can accept either so I just go to the first available pump. If there is a difference between the 2 types I have not noticed it, as my Mitsubishi Pajero performs just as well on either, with no variation in economy.


However, once you get into the cold areas of Australia, such as the Snowy Mountains and snowfields, there is a winter diesel fuel available. When I was coach driving we would always fill with the winter fuel in those areas to aid cold starting.


Peter.
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: tony23 on August 28, 2014, 09:00:43 AM
you should always put in the grade of petrol or diesel that's either in your owners manual or on the filler flap I have been an owner of a Nissan 350Z for some years the car has only ever been ran on high octane petrol like Shell SuperV or Tesco99 members on our forum have had engine failures like burnt out valves etc just running them on a lower grade only it's a fact. I also drive a BMW 330D again I use Diesel Super from petrol stations for the extra pence at a fill up its worth it plus you will get better running and performance with the right grade fuel.
On another note my friend works for Fina at Buncedfield refinery where they had the huge fire some years ago he tells me all the petrol and diesel is the same for all stations around the country Morrisons,Tesco and Sainsbury fuel comes from the same tankers that shell,BP and Murco etc get theirs.  O0 
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: regiment on August 29, 2014, 05:25:57 PM
  talking about avgas  when I was in malta 1954  I was working in air crew feeding one night one of the snow drops (police ) ran out of petrol  out of the blue came a petrol bowser snow drop to driver  put a cup fll in my tank  just to get down to petrol station  right o but your skin two yards down the road a great big bang half a side valve engine  from his Hillman  on the road  I did laughi    I did give him a cup of tea to get over the shock  :police: :police: :police: :police:
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: Netleyned on August 29, 2014, 05:35:20 PM
Your generosity knows no bounds Gordon


Ned
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: sparkey on August 29, 2014, 05:39:33 PM
One or two sugars !
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: regiment on August 29, 2014, 07:16:32 PM
 cannot remember if he took sugar or  not laughing to much
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: sparkey on August 29, 2014, 08:02:13 PM
 {-) Many moons ago an old mate of mine who fancied himself to be a bit of a car mechanic had an old Vauxhall Cresta with a knackered engine so he goes to the breakers yard and buys a good one for a fiver(I am talking 50 years ago) after a bit of a struggle we manage to get the engine into the boot of the Cresta, on the way home we came across some road works with a big ramp which he did not see,as we go over the ramp there is a big bang followed by a crunch so we get out of the car to have a look, the engine and the floor of the boot were in the middle of the road,suffered with a wee bit of rust those Cresta's well I mean you can't laugh in those situations can you,Ray. {-) {-) {-) {-)     
Title: Re: Supermarket Fuel
Post by: grendel on August 29, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
I had an escort we did that with, we had parts from 3 engines, it had a 1600 rad, a 1300 block, a 1100 head and various other bits to get the engine running, I ran that car for over a year, and sold it to a mate who took it down to cornwall on holiday, the only bit that let him down was the wiper that fell off.
Grendel