Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Painting, Finishing and Care. => Topic started by: pipster on October 24, 2014, 11:25:17 pm
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Hi,
I've had a problem with the paint on the hull of my boat reacting with the stand I was using. i used an old mouse mat to cover the contact points on the stand as recommended by Model Slipway. I tried it both ways up (the mousemat not the stand!) and the same problem; stand sticks to hull, stand and leave marks which won't polish out. I've resprayed but would like to avoid the same thing happening. I used Halfords Gloss Appliance White on the hull and left it for 2 weeks before putting on the stand.
So didn't I leave enough drying time for the paint?
Did I used the wrong kind of mousemat?
Was I just unlucky?
Can anyone else suggest something I can use as padding on the stand?
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks
Phil
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I use foam pipe insulation or door gasket. i have even used stick on felt that you get for furniture on wooden floors!
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Hi I usually use green felt or pads made of felt. It is a case of spreading the load of the boat on the stand.
The boat probably spends more time on its' stand than anything else. If I am not going to use a boat for a while I put supermarket bags around it and between the stand and the boat. Never had a problem since doing this. Not pretty but my boats are not allowed out in the house so are tucked away in spare bedroom.
good luck,
Roy
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Thanks guys; looks like felt could be the way forward.
Phil
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I'm in the process of replacing all my boat stands and have also decided to go down the felt route. The rubber type does seem to stick to the hulls a little and if you use 4mm compressed baize any slight difference between the hull shape and the profile on the stand is taken up and also looks quite neat. The Compressed baize is available on Ebay quite cheaply.
Sticking it to the stand is not a real problem either, I seal the edge of the stand with a coat of white glue, let it dry and put a generous layer of white glue on top of that and then apply the baize, making sure not to stretch it. I have found that a little weight on top of the baize ensures that it stays down while the glue sets, only a few minutes anyway. Wipe any surplus glue off the stand with a damp cloth.
Paul
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Hi Pipster
The old type mouse mat was some sort of foam compound that was slightly tacky so the mouse wheel would go round, (you had to clean the wheel ) that is why it sticks to your hulls, I have been using foam pipe lagging for may years, it does compress with the weight of the hull, taking up the fine lines of the hull.
People from my club use draft excluder, old snooker table felt, conveyer belt rubber strip, its to protect the hull and look reasonable when the boat is sailing.
I do agree that the boat spends more time on its stand than sailing.
Mark
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:-)) I use draft excluder from poundland a quid for two big rolls lasts for ever,used to use pipe covering but found it can scratch the hull,Ray. :-)) :-)) :-))
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The stuff used for pipe lagging is really inert and feels a bit slippery it is so smooth. Some pool noodles are made out of the same stuff, and so are some camping and yoga mats. Strips cut from a camping mat is the stuff I use, and I get no reaction with paint even if the boat is left on the stand for months. This plastic is also used for some sorts of packing, instead of expanded polystyrene.
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I use those thin foam washing up sponge cloths. They are about 6mm thick. I cut a strip the width of the stand, usually about 15mm and stick it down with white waterproof PVA. Never had any problems.
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I use strips of sticky-backed Velcro, ( the soft felt part), works well. Pete
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Thanks again to everyone who replied.
It's happened again! I resprayed the hull with halfords diamond white in case the gloss appliance white was too soft. I've left the hull for 3 months upside down to harden. Yesterday I put the stand, now with felt contact points, on the still upside down hull to check the fit around the keel.
I left it over night and it's marked the hull! So it was only the weight of the stand on the hull that's done it. I really don't know what to try next. Does anyone have any ideas? Do I need to strip the hull right back and start again? If so can anyone recommend a paint stripper that will be ok with GRP and 'styrene?
Thanks
Phil
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Can you show a picture of the boat sitting on the stand please. It does sound like the sides are gripping the hulls sides. The paint also sounds a little soft.
I always arrange the stand to be wider than the hull so that no pressure is applied. It merely rest on the keel.
Cheers
ken
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Hi Ken,
Here's a pic of the stand. As you thought, the sides grip the hull. But I'd expect Halfords paint to be properly hard after 3 months and the pressure would have been very light with everything upside down.
(http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/file://localhost/Users/philipcrowther/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Masters/2015/08/08/20150808-111805/IMG_0976.JPG)
Phil
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As I suspected.......... The total weight of the craft is in direct contact with the hull at all points.
I would recommend curving the stand away from the keel and making it wider than the hull with small vertical pieces to go up the hull sides to prevent it toppling over. Cover the stand surface with felt will prevent scratching your paintwork.
Hope this helps.
ken
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Do you have a close up picture that shows the extent of the marking ?
I am very surprised that the upside down stand had enough weight to force the felt to mark.
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I had a similar experience with Halfords paint and the soft foam draft-excluder strip which I used on the stand. There seems to have been a reaction between the paint and the foam, even in areas (like the sides of the model) where no weight was being exerted i.e. the only pressure was from the slight compression of the foam. This reaction was severe enough to eat through several layers of gloss, primer and primer-filler down to the glass cloth which I had used to cover the hull. The last coat of paint had been dry for about a month before I padded the stand, but the damage occurred after I'd sailed the model and put it back in the store-room for a couple of months. I had little option but to sand off all of the paint and start again from the GRP layer.
I still use Halfords paints but I'm experimenting with different materials for the padding on the stands. At present the favourite is hard felt pads sold to prevent wooden furniture scuffing floor surfaces. The next trial will be the Spontex cleaning pads advocated by Marc St H. Like Ken says, I think just a few points of contact between the hull and the padding is preferable to a continuous strip - if only because it means you have less area to repair if it all goes wrong!
DM
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I know I have previously advocated the use of the foam part of sticky-backed Velcro, what I didn`t say was that I also use Halfords acrylic paint and none of my boats have had any problems, (up to now, touch wood ). Pete
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I too have this problem on my Alpine - I have used thick baize and also the hard felt that Inertia has mentioned. All of my efforts have left marring on the painted hull which at first drove me mad.
However I'm not too bothered about it now because when the boat is in the stand the marks cannot be seen, and when it does (if ever at the rate I'm building {-) ) hit the water the marks will be below the waterline. I have just put it down to the softness of the paint. My next hull will be sprayed in 2 pack to stop this happening ever again.
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Thanks all,
I think a stand redesign and complete paint strip down is the only option then. Can anyone recommend a paint striper that will be ok with grp and styrene?
Cheers
Phil
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Fairy Power Spray.
Ned
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Phil
Not that I've heard of. Silicon carbide paper and elbow grease is safest. Chemicals may soften the GRP and/or styrene.
Dave M
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Hi Pipster,
When you paint your hulls, do you give them a couple of coats of varnish ? - I couldn't see any reference to it in the postings to date.
I've used Halfords "rattle cans" for a few models, final coats of varnish, boats put on stand after 48 hours drying time. No marks discovered to date :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Think I'll try Fairy Power spray on some scrap GRP just to be safe. Otherwise given how many coats I've to get through, it's a lot of elbow grease!
Ray, I've not used varnish as I've never got decent results with Halfords lacquer despite several attempts. I now try to get a decent finish from the colour coat. Do you use Halfords lacquer or a completely different varnish?
Phil
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I tried the Halford's lacquer once, on a piece of freshly painted (and dried) scrap plastic. The result was poor, in that the surface, for want of a better description, felt like sandpaper.
So then I went back to my old favourite - Rustoleum clear matt varnish, still using the spray cans - result excellent. O0 :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Phil I find this very odd to say the least ...I'n all the years I have been using Halfords paint I have NEVER had this problem so there is Definatly a cause to this.
So Lets start with the obvious Question..................
When the hull was primered how MANY coats of primer did you apply..........how long between coats of primer
Now don't go stripping the hull down as I personally don't think it will need it...you should be able to rub the marks down starting with Wet/Dry used WET starting with 240 to get a good feather and then go to 600 then reprime the areas that need it....if the paint is being picked up on the rubbing down paper then the problem is definatly the amount of paint that has been applied ...in other words....far to many coats in one go...been there had the tee shirt
Dave
Dave
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One primer/filler; two primer; two gloss.
Dry sanded between every coat except the gloss.
24 hours minimum left between each, model in very warm room.
No solvent smell remaining before recoating.
Wouldn't rub down to GRP skin if it didn't need it. Life's tedious enough already.
Not a professional painter but I also have a tee-shirt.
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ok right then what colour primer did you use .....I have had a slight problem with the white Halfords primer being soft just wondering if this is the common denominator
Dave
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Primer/Filler is yellow. Other primer coats white, red and grey (I'd forgotten it has an anti-foul red hull).
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If the white is on the hull where the boat sits on the hull then it is the White primer that is the common denominator....did a small job on my m8's van this weekend just with aerosols...he had bought the paint form Halfords.....left the primer well over 24hrs before rubbing down, the white primer was soft to rub down and was picking up on the rubbing down paper.......rubbed it all off then recoated it with grey primer.......with no problems at all ....rubbed down in 4 hours and top coat applied with NO problems at all.....now slightly worried about a hull that I used the white primer on!!!!!
Dave........scratching his head to find an ans
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So stratching my head to remember what I did;
1 - primed with about 3 coats of halfords white primer in Sept/Oct 2014
2 - top coat - about 3 coats of Halfords Applicance Gloss White (AGW) Oct 2014 - I would imagine I left at least a week between primer and top coat
3 - stand with mousemat foam marked hull so flatted down and recoated - I'd guess 2-3 more coats of AGW - approx Jan 2015
4 - stand this time with felt marked hull so flatted down and resprayed with Halfords Ford Glacier White in late April/early May 15
5- stand marked hull again - this time upside down and ... you're up to date.
So as I didn't rub back to the GRP each time the culprit from what Dave (Stavros) suggests would seem to be the white primer if not the AGW as well.
Given that, do you think I'm back to a complete paint strip and start again with grey primer? If that's the solution, how well will a white top coat work over grey primer? Also, is Fairy Power Spray ok with 'styrene?
Cheers
Phil
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Phil
Right fairy power spray I haven't personally had a problem with it at all on grp styrene or metal...as for putting white over a grey primer there will be No PROBLEM AT ALL DOING THIS.........If I don't have grey primer,i use a green primer or beige and white will cover them all....the ONLY time you have to really worry with the colour of primer is when you are putting translucent pearls on.Any SOLID colour then you don't and will not have a problem.
Right Personally I would get rid of the paint on the hull and prime with grey primer..... If you have a Euro car parts store in the area you live pop in and get some of their grey professional filler primer ...this stuff
(http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo295/broomsrck/Dicke%20Build%20017_zpskassyw9j.jpg) (http://s385.photobucket.com/user/broomsrck/media/Dicke%20Build%20017_zpskassyw9j.jpg.html)
3 good coats rub down and top coat...you can actually recoat in around 2hours if it is a warm day...Personally I would leave it 24 hours...be warned it is around £12 a tin BUT well worth it....most body shops these days use those or a similar product for scratch repairs as it is quick and it is darned good stuff.
Simply use your Halfords top coat over it they are 100% compatible
Dave
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Fantastic, thanks Dave.
And, there's a Euro Car Parts store just down the road, as I've just discovered.
Phil
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Right, so heeding advice, I have modified the stand as per Kenny's suggestion. This still left a mark on the keel but less so on the hull sides. I've also bought the primer suggested by Dave. I'm hoping the combination of new stand and better primer will do the job...
The only problem is that Fairy Power Spray isn't working at all as a paint stripper. Do I bite the bullet and get a big can of celulose thinners or is there a better alternative.
Cheers
Phil
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well I have just sprayed a Hull and it is still in primer.....loaded far to much paint on it in one go....runs everywhere....placed on stand NO protection.........purely as an experiment...actually put on stand 4 hours after painting and NOT A MARK
Dave
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Dave, I've not tried the primer you suggested yet; thought I'd try a new stand on the old paint first just to see.
Any suggestions for a paint stripper other than fairy power spray which didn't work at all!
Phil
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TBH with you all I would do is to use some 180 grit on it get rid of ALL the stand marks and feather them in prime with the primer I told you 400 then paint it ...I used the Yellow filler primer that Halfords use and I really plastered it on left it 4 hours and threw the boat on the stand with NO detrimental effect......I ALSO tried a piece of wood and used the WHITE primer....GUESS what....it marked after 24hrs
Dave
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Pipster, you say the paint was on the boat for weeks but still it left marks whilst in the stand!
How bad are the marks? Do they look like scratches or do they look like something melted?
Scratches..... Have you been grinding near your stand?
Melted (for want of a better word) ... After a reasonable drying time this shouldn't happen which suggests a chemical reaction. Not between the stand but between paints. This reaction will allow the surface to appear dry but between layers it's still soft. Any weight applied then causes marks.
Are you using different makes of paint?
Are you mixing different types of paint.
Are you mixing one make/type of primer with another make/type of paint.
The reason I am asking is because when I painted my boat I used all the same kinds of acrylic rattle cans. All the same make. I sprayed gray primer onto the hull in the sunshine, left it 15 mins :embarrassed: and then painted the colour. I left it 24hours to harden then did the second colour, another 24hours and the final colour. After a further 24 hours I applied a same make clear lacquer. The result is a hard layer of smooth paint that doesn't mark in the stand. The stand is a wooden stand with foam pipe insulation. (See Lena my first boat build thread)
I feel the problem is A, an incorrect mix of paints or paint types or B, (less likely) a bad tin of paint. Good luck in finding out and sorting this annoying problem..... U2
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As an adjunct to this, I repainted the lobster boat using the same paint system (all Halfords, including white primer) and put some pads of thick felt floor protector onto the stand. Since then I've painted three more models the same way and used thin self-adhesive felt for the stands. So far none has shown any effects, leading me to suspect that it was most likely something in or on the foam I used originally. Weird, innit?
DM
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White primer is the culprit....tried drying it with an ibfrared proffesional heater in the garage as an expetiment ...oversrayed with gloss same treatment still marks in 48hours.....grey primer used no marks.....not a mux of makes at all..
.....culprit in my proffesional opinion
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Thanks again Dave. Rub down of paint has started; I'm regretting putting so many coats of paint now! I'll let you know hw I get on.
U2, all paints, primer and top coats are halfords acrylics. In Dave m's words, weird!
Phil
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So good news and bad news. The Triple QX primer Dave recommended seems to have worked; hooray! I got back to the GRP where the stand goes, having first modded the stand design following everyone's suggestions. Grey primer followed by Halfords glacoer white ( Ithink) and then left the boats fully loaded for the weekend on the stand and no marks.
So, a huge step forward - looks like Halfords white primer is the culprit as you suggested Dave.
But, the Triple QX primer did not mix with the paint I'd left on the hull - it crazed and cracked like crazy. So, I've now taken the whole hull back to bare GRP and will hopefully be priming this week - and top coating if time and weather permits.
Phil
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So, I've now taken the whole hull back to bare GRP
Phil
I know very well indeed how that feels - so do my finger ends. <:(
...well, at least you're finally on the right track. :-))
...and a big WELL DONE to Stavros for getting you there O0
Regards,
Ray.
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hi all i have a qestion
what is better for the boat stand, i use foam pipes on mostly all the stands but on my speedline severn and couple others when i lift the boat off its stand with the straps thne foam sticks to the hull, i was thinking of super glueing the foam to the stand or is it best with felt pads etc, i think my rother stand is felt
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This has been raised before. I use the felt part of self adhesive Velcro. Works for me. pete
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I use foam lagging pipes fixed with contact adhesive then sprayed and polished with car cockpit/dashboard shine.
This stops any stickiness but still cushions the boat.
Ned
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wont the velcro pull off if boat not been used for a while ?
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I have encountered this problem in the past. I think it is down to reactions to certain types of foam, rather than the paint. For heavy boats I have started using leather strips nailed to the sides of the stand and folded over the contact point, working so far.
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my rother stand as like velcro on, but likes of my aurn and severn use foam, might wirth trying velcro, still wouldnt hurt pant on big boats as its velcro rhat be touching the paint
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with velcro is same type you put on your batterys or do you use diffrent type for a wooden stand