Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 08:15:17 AM

Title: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 08:15:17 AM
ESC old as the hills.

Have taken on the task, love job, to overhaul and refit this kit.

Radio and ESC have been provided and are unused (new) am told they are as old as the hills.

Problem is, when all is hooked up and switched on, the motor runs at full speed and there is no control via the Radio.

Have changed plug connections around, 2 channel Radio, but no change, motor still runs flat out.

Guessing may need to look in ESC for a “speed” adjustment but not confident in looking into the black box, actually it is aluminium.

 If all else fails read the instructions there are none.

Done the usual google search but can find no reference to CE Systems ESC. Doesn’t mean much, because my searches usually result in nil. The younger you are the easier it is to find things on the net.

Anyway something is amiss, question is what and how do I rectify it.

Simple problem, so is there a simple black art solution.

Electronics is not one of my strong points  {:-{ {:-{ {:-{
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Brian60 on January 10, 2015, 08:40:00 AM
I couldn't find any record of the company either, but a google search did turn up this link, I hope its ok to paste it because its another boat forum......

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=72452 (http://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=72452)

Also this one from even earlier from our own forum....

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3682.0 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3682.0)



According to one of the replies its been out of business for a long long time.
Looks like you are putting in a new esc.
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: inertia on January 10, 2015, 08:55:52 AM
It sounds very much as if the output transistor has blown (I doubt if this thing used MOSFETs). In that case it's almost certainly U/S unless you can find a replacement output semiconductor of the same type. Like the man says, it's time to fit a new ESC.
DM
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Stan on January 10, 2015, 09:07:35 AM
HI Guys CE speed controllers are long gone. IF they used the old ZN409 CHIP like most of them did at the time  you my find it hard to locate one . If you do the cost will be very high. These units along with ESC from MFA and Fleet systems were very advanced when you think most models had some form of variable resistor controller fitted in them. I know that the MFA electronic boat controller was priced at £30 this was in the early nineties but it was very advanced giving better speed control less voltage drop compered to the  V/R on the market. Most of the components fitted in the above units will now be unavailable forgot to mention also Action I think would have on the scene making electronic ESC also.

Stan. :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :((
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 09:08:28 AM
I couldn't find any record of the company either, but a google search did turn up this link, I hope its ok to paste it because its another boat forum......

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=72452 (http://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=72452)

Also this one from even earlier from our own forum....

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3682.0 (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=3682.0)



According to one of the replies its been out of business for a long long time.
Looks like you are putting in a new esc.
Brian,
 Thanks for the mayhem link that is the one and going by the other link us Aussies were partial to that type of ESC :(( :(( :((
Not looking good. Thank you
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 09:11:48 AM
It sounds very much as if the output transistor has blown (I doubt if this thing used MOSFETs). In that case it's almost certainly U/S unless you can find a replacement output semiconductor of the same type. Like the man says, it's time to fit a new ESC.
DM

Ah Dave,
I was really really trying to avoid depleting my stock of Action ESC's but what will be, will be.
Writing is on the wall.
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 09:18:54 AM
HI Guys CE speed controllers are long gone. IF they used the old ZN409 CHIP like most of them did at the time  you my find it hard to locate one . If you do the cost will be very high. These units along with ESC from MFA and Fleet systems were very advanced when you think most models had some form of variable resistor controller fitted in them. I know that the MFA electronic boat controller was priced at £30 this was in the early nineties but it was very advanced giving better speed control less voltage drop compered to the  V/R on the market. Most of the components fitted in the above units will now be unavailable forgot to mention also Action I think would have on the scene making electronic ESC also.

Stan. :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :(( :((

Stan, 1990's is about right so looks like I bite the bullet and install another ESC.
Have a few spare resistor boards in my stash but they are not as easy to set up as an ESC.

Whilst the news is not good and what I was dreading, the assistance is much appreciated thank you one and all. O0 :-))  O0 :-))  O0 :-))
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: inertia on January 10, 2015, 09:59:07 AM
IF they used the old ZN409 CHIP like most of them did at the time  you my find it hard to locate one . If you do the cost will be very high.
I have 23 of these sitting in a tube, doing nothing except awaiting a customer. Contact me via PM if you are interested and, no - I won't be asking £28 each like the company on E-Bay!
Old ACTion ESCs did use the ZN409 servo chip but everything produced since about 2000 has been based on microprocessors and MOSFET outputs.

RAAArty
PM me if you need an ACTion ESC - I can often find one kicking around the workshop if I can be bothered to look hard enough!
DM
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: malcolmfrary on January 10, 2015, 10:21:55 AM
From that era, the output transistor was probably a "summatorother"2055, depending on the encapsulation. Data sheet - http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/79982.pdf.  They are still in common use.  At that time, the BU211 power FET was just becoming mainstream. 
A picture of the other faces of the unit might help to figure a way to the insides.  It had to be assembled and I doubt if it was welded.  On the inside, there will likely be two adjusting pots which can be tweaked to find the center and then adjust the deadband.  I would not normally expect a power transistor to go short circuit - usually, if they die, things get a bit destructive with the heat generated and they wind up disconnecting themselves.  Of course, it might have been caught in the early stages.  Or the unit is telling it to be switched on, and it is obeying.  It still needs a look inside.
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Stavros on January 10, 2015, 10:44:31 AM
Hang on a mo have you tried your own radio and receiver.....are the ones supplied compatible ....does the rudder work

Receiver says am        is the transmitter not fm

Dave
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: AlexC on January 10, 2015, 11:20:27 AM
Hang on a mo have you tried your own radio and reciever.....are the ones supplied compatable ....does the rudder work

Reciever says am        is the transmitter not fm

Dave

Good shout Dave...
 
Certainly worth checking out... although the Magnum 2PL TX was produced in both AM and FM versions... the RX is definitely an AM version.
 
All the Best.
 
AlexC.
 
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: regiment on January 10, 2015, 02:01:46 PM
  hi you could kick an action  esc my way for my yatch I am building  regiment
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: inertia on January 10, 2015, 02:44:11 PM
Sorry, Gordon, but speed controllers for yachts is something I've never made.................. %)   Anyway, aren't they called sails?
DM
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Netleyned on January 10, 2015, 04:41:18 PM
Could be a model of a Cornish Oligarch's Yacht  %% %%
Speed controller on Rag & Stick  Wind
Stronger it blows faster it goes {-)

Ned
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: regiment on January 10, 2015, 07:56:48 PM
I am going to put a motor in for when I get stuck on the island in the middle of the lake got stuck last year   gordon
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 09:20:57 PM
Update,
Awaiting photographer to take pics of ESC innards. Don't dare wake SWIMBO  :(( :(( :(( her camera, who sleeps in on Sunday mornings.

From what I can see in the ESC, need glasses, there is a relay and maybe a trimpot??
Relay has label with 201084 PC written on it.

According to the RC instructions the transmitter is AM and not FM, Quote Modulation method: AM
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Stavros on January 10, 2015, 09:32:14 PM
Have you TRIED another transmitter and does the RUDDER work at all
 
 
Dave
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 09:47:18 PM
Have you TRIED another transmitter and does the RUDDER work at all
 
 
Dave

Dave,
The rudder works and I switched it around and it worked in both channels whereas the ESC also went flat out in both channels.
I have another same type transmitter so will try that also.

Thank you.
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Stavros on January 10, 2015, 10:00:41 PM
Right
 
Dave
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 10:23:32 PM
OK have changed transmitters and result is the same so looks like problem is with ESC.
SWIMBO is stirring so will get some pics up of ESC innards.
Hope they are clear enough.
Thank you
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: inertia on January 10, 2015, 11:13:15 PM
Malcolm was right about the type of power semicon. That's it, bolted to the case to conduct the heat away a la Electronize.
The circular upright gizmo with three legs and a slot in the middle (to the left of centre in the bottom photo) is a preset pot. It should adjust the centre point when you insert a small screwdriver and turn it. Leave the motor and main battery disconnected and just plug the ESC into the receiver. Now wiggle the throttle stick. At some position of the preset you should be able to hear and see the relay click over from forward to reverse. If that doesn't happen then the chip is dead. If it does then the likelihood is that the TIP summatorother thingy has given up the ghost. There is also another transistor in there somewhere which switches the relay, but that shouldn't make the motor run flat out all the time even if it's up the creek. My money is on TIP.
I still think you'll finish up replacing the whole thing but, hey - this inter-continental forensic stuff is FUN!
Time for all good little boys to GTB over here - good mornin' Australia...............
DM
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: derekwarner on January 10, 2015, 11:14:56 PM
 ok2 ...according to GOOGLE, "201084 PC" can cause measles or AIDS  <*<

Considering that.....I would tend to think the rubbish bin is the best bet  ;) or the TIP as Inertia suggests O0...............Derek
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Umi_Ryuzuki on January 10, 2015, 11:25:29 PM
Gut the box, and hide a modern ESC inside the tin.
 %) :} :-))

Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 11:38:46 PM
Gut the box, and hide a modern ESC inside the tin.
 %) :} :-))

 O0 %%
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 10, 2015, 11:47:42 PM
Dave,

Tested as suggested, you won the bet, the silence was deafening zilch, nuttin, presumed dead.

Trivia, the TIP on case is marked TIP 36  18004.
Found another TIP vertical in centre of board beside a long rectangular chip. That TIP is marked TIP 41A  8344.

 <:( <:( <:( <:( <:( <:(
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: malcolmfrary on January 11, 2015, 10:02:46 AM
http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/PowerInnovations/mXrvuzy.pdf
TIP36 is a quite humpty power transistor.  The center pin is connected to +ve power, it is also connected to the mounting tab, so the mounting needs to be insulated, usually fibre washers and a mica shim.  It is controlled by having a negative voltage applied to the "base" connection (pin 1 on the pdf link) which causes it to switch on.  With a quick dab of soldering iron it should be possible to disconnect it.  Applying power, if the motor runs, the transistor is broken, but is very replaceable.  Since it is not the best amplifier in the world, it needs a fair bit of power to drive it.  Just as with the Hitec gold bricks, there will likely be a power resistor somewhere near worked right at its limits, which will have fried everything within 5mm.  At this point, Umi's suggestion is a damn fine idea.
The other transistor has two possible uses - it switches the ground (-ve) line and could be either the driver for the TIP36 of it could be the relay switcher.  http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/TIP41A-D.PDF 
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on January 11, 2015, 11:22:22 AM
Thank you one and all. :-)) :-))
Have learnt quite a bit out of all this, especially what simple practical tests to carry out. O0 O0
How much will I retain???????
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Subculture on January 11, 2015, 11:54:17 AM
An inexpensive modern ESC with BEC would offer improvement in performance and reliability. Replacing the nicads with lipo would bring further performance benefits and also improve running times.
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: inertia on January 11, 2015, 12:37:49 PM
An inexpensive modern ESC with BEC would offer improvement in performance and reliability. Replacing the nicads with lipo would bring further performance benefits and also improve running times.
Yeah; totally agreed, m'duck - but that would be like 'renovating' an old model by building a new one. At the end of the day it will likely come to that, but imagine the feeling if you were to replace the chip and suddenly the whole thing worked like a new one. The fun is in the fiddling about!
DM
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Subculture on January 11, 2015, 01:23:52 PM
Ah, okay, fair enough. Never had much interest in preserving old electronics unless they offer something that can't be achieved with more contemporary gear.
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: inertia on January 11, 2015, 01:54:25 PM
Ah, okay, fair enough. Never had much interest in preserving old electronics unless they offer something that can't be achieved with more contemporary gear.
They're usually free............... 8)   
There's a whole crowd of aeromodellers who fly with the old pushbutton single channel radios and rubber-driven escapements - to the extent of having them made on 2.4GHz - and another bunch who are addicted to the multi-channel reed sets and aerobatic models of the late 50s and 60s. I had little time for this sort of nostalgia until I was commissioned to build my all-time favourite aeroplane (Ed Kazmirski's 'Orion'). Immediately I was scouring the world for a working K&B 45 engine, VECO wheels, real DuBro quick-links etc. If I could have found a Space Control* or Bonner Digimite proportional radio to put in it I would have been in modelling heaven.
Strange, isn't it?
*For those who think that we've always had multi-channel proportional radio sets for the price of a decent pair of jeans, here's a little piece of modelling history. http://www.rchalloffame.org/Manufacturer/SpaceControl/history/ (http://www.rchalloffame.org/Manufacturer/SpaceControl/history/)
I remember Roger Allton and Geoffrey Pike flying their Orions with Space Control systems on Tollerton aerodrome in the late 50s.
Title: Re: ESC won't work old as hills
Post by: Subculture on January 11, 2015, 02:30:52 PM
I can understand some of thtat a little more, e.g. the use of push button controls etc. It's a very different way to control than full proportional. However noted that they often use them with modern tuners.

In the case of this model, I don't see any real romance in using an early esc, but if the builder gains pleasure from tinkering, that's fine by me.