Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Beginners start here...! => Topic started by: pcresser on March 25, 2015, 04:53:23 pm
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Hello, whats the best for making the frames of a boat mdf or ply.
Paul.
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Ply
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Ply
Bob
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Marine ply
MDF is like a sponge in a marine environment.
Make sure the ply you buy is WPBP
That's waterproof boilproof.
Give it a couple of coats of varnish or epoxy also
Ned
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Hi I will join in the choice of ply. Whenever I make a model boat mainly from wood I only use the best materials.
The reason is how long do you want the model to last?
It is possibly and in my case certainly, that the models will out last you.
I great pity to have them rotting from bits out of site because you are a "cheap skate".
regards Roy
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Foamex sheet - wateproof, UV-stable, easy to cut, put it together with Polypipe glue. :-))
Wood is way too much hassle.
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MDF is just about OK for a boat stand, as long as you give it several coats of thinned polyurethane varnish to soak into the fibres and set up hard. BTW the dust from cutting or machining or sanding it is apparently carcinogenic, so either wear a decent mask or don't book your holidays too far in advance. Other ways of encouraging fatal diseases are available. :o
Plastic
Is that Medium Density Foamex or WaterProof + BoilProof Marine Foamex?
DM
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Plastic
Is that Medium Density Foamex or WaterProof + BoilProof Marine Foamex?
DM
Didn't know there was more than one type. I use the 8'x4' sheets that sign-makers use in 1mm, 3mm & 5mm thicknesses.
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ok2 Wood every time,use good quality materials and treat the wood with good vanish and paint and the boat will last a life time,besides working with wood is very enjoyable and tactile which I don't get with plastic materials but some of us modellers use anything to hand and have great results who am I to judge,there again I am as old as the ark and used to my old ways,Ray. ;)
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Always waterproof ply, less prone to twisting and warping. Also less precautions required when cutting a lot of it, can also be lighter than MDF. I do not think they use MDF on full size boat frames, why use it on a model?
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I had a quarter sheet of 10 mm MDF and it was in the shed and it got slightly damp at one end it has swelled to over 15mm thick ,so by now you will have the message that MDF is no good .
Use good quality modeling ply then when it is cut it will have no holes or cracks in the laminate build up . Sorry I can not give links to suppliers but someone on here will put you in the right direction
David
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These guys have never fallen short of excellent in either quality or service http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/Birch-Plywood.html (http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/Birch-Plywood.html)
DM
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Didn't know there was more than one type. I use the 8'x4' sheets that sign-makers use in 1mm, 3mm & 5mm thicknesses.
Plastic,
What thickness do you use for frames? Is 5mm sufficient?
I am thinking of both rigidity and glueing area here.
As this is an alternative construction material, and possible different methods of construction, could you do a build thread please?
Or some other thread at least showing some models or the model making?
I am sure some of the member would be interested to see this. :-))
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Hi everyone, thanks for all the replies and advice.
Many thanks,
Paul.
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Plastic,
What thickness do you use for frames? Is 5mm sufficient?
I am thinking of both rigidity and glueing area here.
Wherever extra strength or a larger gluing area is needed I just slap another layer on. The glue dries in seconds so you can build incredibly quickly. You can change your mind and just chop material away or glue some back in no time. I use more glue or waterproof PVA to seal any exposed foam edges to make a paintable surface.
This board cuts easily with a Stanley knife or with scissors.
I've attached a pic of a 1/200 Titanic I did a couple of years ago.
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Tell us more Plastic. I`m interested in the material and can see it as a useful addition to keep our costs down. Bonus would include less prepping for paint , less sanding, smooth surface etc etc.
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It's a great material - I last paid £30 for 8'x4' 3mm sheet. It has no grain, it's slightly flexible and plumber's PVC glue sticks it together. You can also use the glue as a filler for small gaps.
It weighs nothing - the whole Titanic hull was less than 1kg (it is double skinned & double bottomed to be very rigid and have lots of watertight compartments. I've attached another earlier pic showing the structure.
*This all came about when I was given the 1/200 Taschen card model Titanic (it comes as a book as a waterline model to build) and I wondered how difficult it would be to build it into a working model.
The model essentially forms a simple 2d pattern for me to replicate in Foamex (deducting the material thicknesses where appropriate) and I had to to invent the below waterline part of the hull using traditional techniques.
I was going to use Plasticard for the model but it worked out too expensive so this material was next on the list. I totally recommend it.
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Thanks Plastic. Modern methods and materials not to say electronics and motors are slower to be adopted in the model boat world than in other forms of modelling. Any more of your builds to show us ? Titanic looks good. Scaling-up card models are as good if not better than plans IMO.
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... and have lots of watertight compartments...
Not like the original then :-X
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Isn't foam board a preferred material for our friend Krishna to make the proliferation of boats that he does?
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Topic renamed! ok2
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Isn't there a little kit of a Fairey Swordsman available made from Foamex? I'm sure I've seen one somewhere...on eBay, I think? About £30ish.
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@plastic
Have you got a link to a local source of foamex? (I'm in the same part of the world as you)
It's not something I've come across before.
NNF
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I I think Krishna uses a paper and foam type of "foamboard" . We have to be careful about terminology here.
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Isn't there a little kit of a Fairey Swordsman available made from Foamex? I'm sure I've seen one somewhere...on eBay, I think? About £30ish.
Yeah
Speedline methinks
Ned
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I very nearly bought one a while back, but then the Motorflote turned up.
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Angles on a motorflote easier than curves on a swordsman Rich {:-{
Ned
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Speedline ? any connection to Beeline that was ? They made little foamie bipes, Pups and Triplanes.
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Angles on a motorflote easier than curves on a swordsman Rich {:-{
Ned
Very true Ned...I ain't daft!
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If anyone had been looking on the Luton stand at Warwick and alley pally for the last 3 years you would have seen an unpainted MTB made totally out of foameX. Indeed at Wicksteed last year I gave a bundles of it to several people. Curves can be held by twisting foamex to the rough shape and immersing it in hot water then pinning to the frames with plumbers plaice gel glue.
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This one?
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That's the one
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The MTB is awesome. I think i might be tempted to use this material for a future build. I was just Googling to find out a bit more about the stuff, and found this description:
What is Foamex?
Foamex is a superior quality, extremely versatile PVC foam sheet that is fabrication friendly. It is easy to bend, cut, drill and glue and you can print on it.
What is it used for?
Foamex is mainly used to make signage, banners and exhibition display panels. It has a fine cell structure that makes it the preferred choice for professional digital printers, and comes in a variety of colours and specifications. You can achieve high quality, visually pleasing signage and display products which look far more expensive than they actually are.
What are its advantages?
Foamex is manufactured with a high quality smooth finish that can be fabricated or cut to shape, allowing designers to create attractive graphic panels for exhibitions or advertising applications. It is a cost effective alternative to more expensive options such as plywood, MDF or aluminium, and extremely durable.
Can I use it outside?
Yes, Foamex is Water Repellent / weatherproof and does not ingress moisture so it is ideal for external applications. It is warranted against UV fading for up to 7 years outdoors and 10 years indoors.
Is it easy to hang / mount?
As a strong, rigid material, it is easy to hang using self tapping screws, double sided Velcro or double sided adhesive pads. Mounting on Foamex will give you excellent dimensional stability and it may be reused a number of times.
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I have a project (in my head) that I haven't started yet. Inspired by Ron Rees's articles in Model Boats magazine, I'd like to build one of the older Vic Smeed designs out of depron foam and possibly reinforce with carbon tubing.
As far as I can tell, depron foam is Extruded Polystyrene Foam.
Is foamex the same stuff, does anyone know the difference?
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Foamex is a sheet material made of a sandwich of 2 PVC sheets with foam between. It is not just a sheet of foam.
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I used to use it at work, to make permanent signs for substations, we had a vinyl tape printer that made self adhesive signs that were then stuck to the foamex, they were good for permanent outside use, I have used scraps for several projects, it glues well with plastic solvent glue (I have a bottle left over from years back for making airfix kits) we used to use the 3mm thickness.
Grendel
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We need a Foamex build log on Mayhem! O0
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Foamex is a sheet material made of a sandwich of 2 PVC sheets with foam between. It is not just a sheet of foam.
Foamex is a foam board is paper or card faced foam. Easy to cut lightweight but not waterproof or uv stable. You would need to be careful which glue to use as the foam is liable to melt.
foamex is a sheet of lightweight pvc. Uv stable waterproof and easy cut. It can be glued with most glues although I have found poly pipe gel is best. Superglue is also very good. Epoxy is a no no As it will not stick to pvc
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For free foamex find a local sign writer and ask if they have a bin of off cuts. They maybe weird sizes but it's normally free.
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Reading this posting has just reminded of a sample of MDF I got from one of our panel product reps last year.
He told me its waterproof MDF. Not moisture resistant (MR) MDF. When I got home I placed it in a bucket outside and monitored over a month. There was no dimensional change to the sample. It was still the same size. Still the same smoothness.
Its classed as dimensional stable, extreme durable, paintable and comes with for 50 year guarantee.
Avail in the usual 4,6,9,12,15,18mm 2440 x 1220mm sheet sizes.
I'm working on the rep to get me a 4mm largish sample to muck about with. Results could be interesting.
For more info check out their web site meditetricoya.com
captain ron
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Mdf. Careful of the dust
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Yeah
Speedline methinks
Ned
The Speedline model is not Foamex - its vacformed ABS with ply . The one on eBay is Depron and made by, I think, Aquatur.
Barrie
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Foamex is a foam board is paper or card faced foam. Easy to cut lightweight but not waterproof or uv stable. You would need to be careful which glue to use as the foam is liable to melt.
foamex is a sheet of lightweight pvc. Uv stable waterproof and easy cut. It can be glued with most glues although I have found poly pipe gel is best. Superglue is also very good. Epoxy is a no no As it will not stick to pvc
Should the first product be Depron?
Ned
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Should the first product be Depron?
Ned
Depron doesn't have anything as a cover - not paper or PVC - its just expanded plastic for want of a better description.
Barrie
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Foamex is a foam board is paper or card faced foam. Easy to cut lightweight but not waterproof or uv stable. You would need to be careful which glue to use as the foam is liable to melt.
foamex is a sheet of lightweight pvc. Uv stable waterproof and easy cut. It can be glued with most glues although I have found poly pipe gel is best. Superglue is also very good. Epoxy is a no no As it will not stick to pvc
Ermm...so it's water proof or not?
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Is what waterproof?
.... is that bad English?! {:-{
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The PVC stuff is waterproof & UV stable for exterior use - glue with polypipe. I only use this type for boats or modelling - it's great.
The Card-Faced stuff is for interior use - normally backing for posters or photography mountings - glue with pva or any paprer glues. good for modelling but I wouldn't use it to make a boat - too many sealing problems.
Other people's opinions may differ - depending on their preferences or skills.
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Is what waterproof?
.... is that really bad English?! {:-{
I got confused because he mentioned the world foamex in both description, sorry I didn't meant to bother anyone. It's my english that get's confused and bad.
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No problem. :-)
All OK?
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Hi All,
Yes...it's me, the one who builds all those Depron models in MB magazine. I was a woodwork teacher! and love wood (but MDF is not wood, its a recycled paper product shredded to dust, mixed with a binder then rolled out into a gel like sheet and baked. Unless it has a Urea Formaldehyde binder it is not waterproof and will absorb water at a prodigious rate. According to Design and Technology H & S guidelines it is really not recommended for teaching children woodwork in schools as it is regarded as a carcinogen)
I have used Depron foam for 3 years or so, along with other foams in my several model articles, the ones that are covered in ladies tights (don't tell the wife!)...Depron is an expanded Polystyrene board and often used to build lightweight model planes. It should not be glued with pipe adhesive or any of the plastic solvent or impact type. There are glues for it including Foam Safe cyanos, Deluxe Materials Canopy or R/C modellers glue. Hobbyking do a 'Foam Glue for it which is messy, epoxy works well and some Aliphatic resins.
I have also used Foamex which is great in the thicker sizes. Depron is easily available in 2,3,4,5,6,9mm thicknesses, it has no grain pattern so parts can be cut in any direction. It is particularly good for children, no smell, no dust, easy to cut, dimensionally strong, impact resistant (up to a point) Totally water resistant, UV resistant, cheaper than plywood and Plasticard.
A lamination of 3mm Depron with an applied skin of nylon, tissue, fibreglass etc and coated in epoxy resin or Acrylic varnishes is very similar to the skins now used on lightweight full size home build aircraft, with an aluminium skin it is often used in commercial aircraft, full sized boats, some body and surfboards and many other modern products.
It is not the be all and end all of building materials, but it is quick and easy to use, where it is more appropriate, of course I would use plywood etc......Its all Horses for Courses.
Cheers............Ron.
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Foamex is, I believe a skinned, foamed pvc sheet. I have used it a lot for sheet parts, having been given a load by a sign-printer
it glues (reluctantly) with any of the solvent styrene glues, but would glue perfectly with plumbers pvc glues (I didn't try that, I would have had to buy it)
And it takes paint well.
AAArgh - I have just Google Foamex and found in Aus its a company who work in Polystrene! >:-o
so Yes, we need to be careful with names and descriptions
andrew
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So what's the type of foam used in foamboard and foamex? Did anyone ever tried to remove the paper from the foam board to use only the foam?
Daniel
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Foamex is, I believe a skinned, foamed pvc sheet. I have used it a lot for sheet parts, having been given a load by a sign-printer
it glues (reluctantly) with any of the solvent styrene glues, but would glue perfectly with plumbers pvc glues (I didn't try that, I would have had to buy it)
And it takes paint well.
AAArgh - I have just Google Foamex and found in Aus its a company who work in Polystrene! >:-o
so Yes, we need to be careful with names and descriptions
andrew
I went looking as well and found the same site, but a bit further down in the Google list there was
http://www.plastix.com.au/materials_foamed_pvc.html
It doesn't mention being skinned though
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The foam used in foamboard sheet is polysyrene foam, and indeed the paper (card) front and back can be removed by soaking to leave a sheet of ps foam WHICH IS NOT SKINNED (Depron foam is skinned), so it is very flexible
OK so there are two meanings of Foamex
A) a brand name for Skinned PVC foam much used in the sign-printing industry, point of sale etc (hence the skins so it can be printed on)
and
B) In Australia (?only) the name of a company selling insulation products and the brand they put on their polystyrene insulation products (both extruded and expanded)
So, as usual, be careful out there, folks :-)
andrew