Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Yachts and Sail => Topic started by: Tom@Crewe on July 23, 2007, 09:38:51 am
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I have been planning putting a big toe into the scale sail side of things, and want something on easy side to start with, and I saw this at the lake side, I got chatting and it was scratch build from "Model Boat Magazine plans". But I did not get details to which and when. Can anyone help?
Has anyone else built one and have advice? or alternative plans (simple hull)
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Check this out: http://www.modelbarge.info/
Mark
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I don't know if Model Boats Plans still do the 1/48 tabletop plan of the Will Everard. I doubled it up to 1/24 and scratch built a working model. Came out ok. Also there is a 1/24 hull moulding available commercially but cannot remember by who. No doubt someone here will know.
Here's a couple of pics posted elsewhere on the forum : http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=2780.msg27940#msg27940
If you follow the thread both up the page and also to the following page there are more barge pictures
MikeK
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Hi,
you could try having a look at www.kingstonmouldings.com and www.waverlymodels.co.uk
BJH
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Waverley Models do a 1:24 scale GRP hull and drawings. Length 48 inches beam 11 inches. £85 I think.
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This may help . you need an"e"
http://www.waverleymodels.co.uk/
Peter
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You could try, www.modelbarge.info
Daryl
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Hi Tom
Model Boat plan MM1187 20" simplified Thames Sailing Barge http://www.myhobbystore.com/ProductDetails/mcs/productID/2003/groupID/4/categoryID/75/v/439f2dbd-47bf-49ba-88ea-4f09551f291e
I bought a vac-formed hull about thirty years ago. It's about three foot long and maybe twice a year I get it down, do a couple of days work on it, then forget it for six months!
Apparently they are not that easy to sail. The above links to the model barge websites will probably give you all the info you need. If you can get hold of the "Will Everard" plans they are very detailed - I have a set - but the vessel is not typical of the average barge.
Rick
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It was realy the plan from Model boat magazine, for a simple build hull. I think it was said around 1999 and named kitty. it was also said this boat in the picture was a little wide compared to length against other maodels
I saw it sail and looked good to me, but I know nothing about scale sail as yet.
Its just a quick, easy and cheap build (scale boat) I want get it on the water see if I like it then go for something bigger and better
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Kitty was a plan by Richard Webb, he has a web site www.scalemodelboatyard.co.uk
Daryl
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Hi Tom@Crewe
I'm sure I've got that plan in my plans file. Just found the plan, was in issue 581, barge looks to be 24" od.
You'r welcome to it if you want.. let me know
Richard
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Thanks for the offer Tester and yes please, send me an e-mail which is on my profile and I will send you my address.
Thanks again
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Dear Tom@Crewe,
What about trying the HFM Marine Thames Sailing Barge kit, available (I believe) from JoTiKa Ltd? LOA 863mm, Beam 171mm. It looks very nice...
Best wishes
Polobeer ;)
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Well Tester you have done us proud, the plan and info got to me next day and the idea of building a Thames Barge has gone from an intresting idea to next project on the list (got to finish 'John H. Amos' First. few more weeks I hope).
Its Fantastic when you can come to Mayhem as a question and in a few days get it sorted. I'm sure as the build goes on there will be more questions!
Thank you very much Tester and all the others that offered help and advice
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The Kitty build is going well but.........
The plan calls for a servo to control the sails, can anyone recommend one, does it have to be more powerful?
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The Kitty build is going well but.........
The plan calls for a servo to control the sails, can anyone recommend one, does it have to be more powerful?
I would say yes in principle. You then have to decide whether to use a sail arm servo (ie servo with ling arm to give you the required sheet travel or a sail winch with multi turn drum. There may be useful info on the AMBO website www.modelbarge.info/ and at last a couple of barge bulders are on the forum including Ivor Bittle who has an excellent website with lots of info on model barges at www.ivorbittle.co.uk/ . Your Kitty is a relatively small barge - most are built to a scale of 1:24 but the main sail will still pull pretty hard in a breeze.
On my Billings Karoline i use a Hitec sail winch costing around £21 as I prefer this way of operating to a sail arm. On my Colin archer I shall use one of those for the main and two metal geared servos for the jib and/or fore sail using a channel mix to allow them to work together to haul the jib to port or starboard and sheet in or out. i shall use fairly stiff piano wire for the sail arms to allow a bit of give under extreme tension. Using the brass bits from terminal block as sheet attachments will also allow easy adjustment of the throw as they'll slide along the wires.
Cheers
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I have not exactly followed the Kitty plan.
I have stretched it to give it more scale proportions. its now beam 185mm as plan but length 875mm.
Scaled up the Masts, and Sails to match the new length using a full sized barge drawing.
Built it in ply not styrene.
I have missed off some things like the winches, companion ways and detailing. this is my first sail boat so I just want to get it to water.
If I enjoy sailing I will get something better and scale, with all the detailing.
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Tom,
I sail a Kitty (my first R/c boat, first yacht, first scratchbuild) sail servo is a perfectly standard servo with arms extended both ways to about 4 inches both sides.
One side works the main (with double travel) and the other side works all 3 jibs (Yes, purists I KNOW they are called different names on a TSB). The men of AMBO are perfectly clear that you do not need to control any of the headsails, and Richard Cheyney, I seem to remember, controls only the vangs - not any sheets on any sail.
If I were rigging from scratch I would use 2 standard servos, one for the main with a long extension (under the main hatch) and another in the fore-hatch for the headsails. I have 2 sheets on the foresail and jib (one each side) led through the bulwarks to the servo arm and just one on the flying jib (Jib topsail) thru a ring at the hounds and down to the Servo.
Pics available if they would help you
Nice job, BTW - thanks for showing us. Do you have motor fitted?
andrew
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Comme ca :}
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/DCP01928.jpg)
Mainsheet at the top - the attachment is to an eye on the coaming, then thru an eye on the end of the arm and out through a red tube to the mainsail (via traveller on the main horse)
Jib sheets at the bottom - five in total being pulled directly from the arm
Overall looks like this:
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/DCP01918.jpg)
Let me know anything you need by way of help
andrew
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Hi Andrew
Do your lee boards operate?
Or do you use a drop keel?
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Tt
My leeboards operate very nicely, thanks, considering my age :}
The barge has a plug-in keel with a cast lead bulb at the bottom. The pic above is without it, of course
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/DCP02054.jpg)
Pic of the keel in place - shape is generally as plan, but made of 6mm styrene
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd159/andrewh_photo/DCP02056.jpg)
Sailing pic
andrew
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Nice sailing pic,
Boats always look best on the water.
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I think that the general experience of the AMBo skippers is that scale leeboards don't work effectively in the non-scale seas and wind we sail in :-( OTOH the drop keel is essentil due to the flat bottom and shallow draft of a barge.
When Lady Dahne comes to the top of my list I intend to make the leeboards functional just so it looks right.
Guy
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I agree on the scaling issues with the leeboards, and the need for a drop keel.
As an aside, I know nothing about how the Thames barges plied thier trade. The barges here in China may have little draft when empty, but are loaded up until they have little if any freebaord at all. I have seen some that appear to be up/down to the scuppers and are maybe relying on the hatch coamings to keep them afloat. I would imagine that in the pre-regulated days of river haulage, similar practices were common on the Thames.
Did the full size barges heel, or was this something that the skipper would try his hardest to prevent; assuming payload was more valued than speed.
Any insights would be greatly recieved.
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TT
When they were full loaded it was said that a robin could perch on the deck and take a drink over the side - so yes they were loaded to the max.
I have only sailed moderately loaded TSBs (full size) with relatively large crews and indeed they heel, and the Leeboards take enormous pressure - you could not raise one unless you luffed up and took the pressure off it.
In their working life they are the largest cargo vessel to be worked by two crew (and a dog)
One of these days I will make a 1/24th barge - about 48 inches long, and give her working leeboards (but probably with a keel as well) and I would also hope to have control of the vangs. The running backstays I will not worry about!
Some of the big AMBO barges race with keels, some have internal ballast and some have a lead pipe hung close to the hull (outside) - perhaps it depends on the depth of water
andrew
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I agree on the scaling issues with the leeboards, and the need for a drop keel.
and are maybe relying on the hatch coamings to keep them afloat. I would imagine that in the pre-regulated days of river haulage, similar practices were common on the Thames.
Did the full size barges heel, or was this something that the skipper would try his hardest to prevent; assuming payload was more valued than speed.
Any insights would be greatly recieved.
I think you're right, that payload was the important thing and that fully loaded they were fairly "stiff". I guess that they would be trimmed and sailed differently during the famous Thames Barge Races and would certainly have heeled a fair amount then when driven hard.
As I've mentioned before, there's a lot of interesting and useful info on Ivor Bittle's website regarding the way full-size barges were worked and how to best achieve a simlar sailing style in a model. http://www.ivorbittle.co.uk
I think it would be fair to say that Ivor believes that the object should be to build a barge which looks as close to scale as possible both in terms of fittings, sailing characteristics and presence on the water but that invisible materials are not important, whereas some of the racing model barges are "stand-off scale" with fittings and rigging compromised to improve racing performance.
Both valid PoV but leading to very different appproaches.
Cheers
Guy
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thanks for the help and pictures.
I have not fitted a motor or working leeboards or any detailing as its a test piece, if I like sailing it i will go for something more scale, if I don't like sailing it was just a cheap test.
but I am looking forward to getting it to the lake.
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My greeting for everybody :-)
I would like to build this ark with my sons, but I would have a question.
It is possible to see the motive servo of the vitorlázat on one of the pictures, but there is an electric motor beside it.
Its role is unclear.
In the deficiency of edge motorcyclist drive?
With a greeting Elf Daddy ok2
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hello elf daddy
The motor in the picture drives a propellor to bring the boat home if it is needed!
It operates from another channel of the radio, but when sailing it is always "off"
This would be a good boat to build with your sons; many people, including Tom@crewe have built it in plywood. Mine is made out of styrene
andrew
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My next question. Having increased the length of the model, the buoyancy has increased as well, therefore the keel needs to be heavier.
The waterline is not on the plan but looking at other models and the real thing I'm looking a half way from the bottom of the hull to the deck line (Is that about right?) I'm going to put her in the bath weigh her down to water line, weigh the ballast and thats the weight of the keel.
BUT........where do I fit the keel. A) as the plan under the mast and I suppose under the thrust! then add weight to the stern to trim the boat.
or B) move the keel back to a position where the boat is in trim.
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Hi Tom
At the risk of repeating myself, this info and also a good deal of theory is on Ivor Bittle's website www.ivorbittle.co.uk in the "Modelling a thames Barge" section. WRT position of the keel, Ivor suggests that the centre of area of the fin should be just over 40% of the LWL length back from the stem. Another source suggests that the front edge of the keel should be about half way back the mainmast. I've not checked whether this is the same place on my LD plan! If you're keen to experiment it should berelatively easy to devise a mount which allows the position to be adjusted to find the best position in practice.
Apart from Ivor's website there was a very useful series on building the Clai Jane by Ivor Warne (too many Ivors!) in MB a few years ago and he has written a couple of update articles, the most recent of which is in the latest MB which have lots of useful info gained from his experience of trying to get CJ to sail less like a waterlogged pig :-)
HTH
Guy
Guy
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Hello, maybe this is a dumb question but here goes: I read somewhere (Tristan Jones?) that off the wind barges set a square sail (and perhaps a square topsail). Is this accurate and if so do any of you sett one on your models?
Thanks
George
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I was taught how to sail; the real thing by a very respected professional barge master. The barge in river trade between medway and the Thames used to load with a 3 inch freeboard, when the Board of trade introduced loadlines for the Essex and coastal work it was 6/9 inch's freeboard depending on the area it was going to work in. The barges had a peculiar lean in a strong wind, in that they did not heal on their midships but more on their lee chine. After all they were literally planks going along, with extremely shallow draft to a massive beam to length ratio, the Mirosa was 82 feet long with a 12 foot beam and a moulded draft of 5foot 6 inch's if my memory serves me right. Also most of the main masts were of similar size due to racing regulations, their gear was not massive, unlike the champion bowsprit introduced after the war for 4 barges which had an increase of over 50% and which one of their racing masters commented as " yes she leans further, but she does not go any faster".
The Sirdar in her racing gear had heavy chains suspended on wires in the hold to alter the trim when racing, whilst Everad put a forklifter in his barges, also when the Veronica was ug out of the seawall to race after Sirdar thrashed Sara, all her frames were half sized and some of the lining from inside the hold was missing so as to make her light for speed. Also the Sara left the PLA motor launch in mucking reach standing when she was sailing once.
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The very early Thames barges in the early to mid 19th century did used to set a square sail when running of the wind, similiar practice to RN schooners of that period. There are several paintings of the thames showing barges with this type of square sail.
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Hi all
Just using this Thames Barge thread to pass on some useful info from the latest AMBO mag "Bitts and Bobs". The moulds for the highly thought of hulls produced by the late Tony Williams have been taken over by Terry Moffat of AMBO and the Southend Club. Terry can be contacted by email for info regarding production plans etc at terrymoffat@blueyonder.co.uk
HTH
Guy
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Hello,
Fitting a drop Keel to a yacht of any kind, is usually done with the boat ballasted down onto the water lines, fore and aft.
The Rudder must be fitted, Lee boards if to be used, be fitted and in the water.
The Centre of Lateral Resistance (CLR) has to be found.
The boat should be pushed sideways with a Pencil or other pointed object.
Find the point where the boat can be moved bodily sideways, moving the Bow and the Stern equally, is the CLR !!.
The centre of the Keel area is the same point as the CLR.
John. :-))
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Hi Tiger Tiger,
As an aside, I know nothing about how the Thames barges plied their trade. The barges here in China may have little draft when empty, but are loaded up until they have little if any freeboot at all. I have seen some that appear to be up/down to the scuppers and are maybe relying on the hatch coamings to keep them afloat. I would imagine that in the pre-regulated days of river haulage, similar practices were common on the Thames.
In answer to your query above, the answer is the same as china, in the London river the PLA allowed minimum freeboard was 3 inch's and about 6 inch's on the coast before the Board of Trade took an interest in their freeboards. The more you carried the more you was paid as the crew were paid 50% of the freight rate per ton after agreed stoppages such as dock dues etc. Have seen loaded Thames Lighters with water on deck. As to leaning over to much in a breeze, well yes as a barge it is dangerous to get water on deck, as your stability curve rapidiliy disappears. So the master would reduce sail area as appropiate, but in relation to thier hull size the working sail areas of trading barges was not that particulary big in comparasion to say schooners and fishing boats. Several barges in trade did capsize , one famousily after a Thame race in a private match, in which both master and owner drowned. One caught its leeboard in shallow water, the leeboard did not break and the barge tipped over on it.
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I have built and sailed two versions of the HFM kit (thames barge) and I still sail my Ethel Ada which is based at maldon, the real thing that is, you do not need an expensive servo or sail winch just a mid range one with a arm does the trick, the only thing I did to mine to make them go right was to fit an extention to the rudder (bottom) about 2 inches, if you make it bigger it starts to act as a brake, its a first class bit of gear to start of with,
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Not quite finished but...................................
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Looking good. 8)
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You might care to read www.ivorbittle.co.uk
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You might care to read www.ivorbittle.co.uk
That's an excellent site for any builder, barge or otherwise. :-))
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Just got back from the USA read the thread with interest this is my effort ,built on an Ian Williams hull which I think are now available again after his sad loss.
AMBO is the way to go I joined for the period of the build the people involved couldn't have been more helpful.
I love sailing this boat with a 8lb keel she can sail in just about any conditions
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There is an old book called Spritsail Barges of Thames and Medway by Edgar J March ISBN-13: 9780715346815 written back in the 50's which has detailed plans and sketches of these ships that would be a great use to you.
Hull central Library has a copy of this book and it can still be bought but its quite pricey as copies are rare.
Regards
Greg
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This thread has had a long run and is now current again.
I noticed the contribution in which it was claimed that the position of the dynamic transverse thrust produced by the hull when it is under way can be found by dragging the floating hull sideways (or pushing it)
I watched a lady sailing a model barge fitted with a keel that had been located by this pushing sideways method. It was hopeless in that it turned into wind continually. The position of the keel was changed and it is now a much better boat.
Only a supreme optimist would think that a dynamic force can be found from a static test.
If the keel that is added to a model barge is of a satisfactory aerofoil shape it is so powerful compared with the hull that it is effectively the only component resisting the transverse force. Then the whole idea of a centre of lateral area collapses. As it is the keel that is resisting the transverse force and not the hull it follows that the new keel must be fitted relative to the sailing rig that is position-fixed for a scale model of a barge. I covered the location of keel in my web site. www.ivorbittle.co.uk
Of course the TSB had a drop keel only it was called a lee-board. With a crew of only two there was an incentive to set the barge up to let it sail long distances under automatic steering and getting the boat balanced would facilitate this. I think that the leeboards could have been used to balance the barge because lowering or raising the lee-board also moves its centre of lift fore and aft. In effect it is a movable keel.
Ivor Bittle
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Hi Ivor
I had always assumed a different reason for choice of lee board.
It was a much simpler design and build in days of yore, when boats were very simple, and the tradition continued. Also the keel box would interfere with loading and the size of loads any boat could carry, and so having the keel outboard would make more sense.
Like I say, these are assumptions.
Many other benefits gained in early boat design, before the science of marine engineering, would have been through trial and error and happy accidents.
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The Thames barge had a direct line of descent from the swim headed lighter. Throughout it worked in a tidal river and went to ground when the tide went out. No doubt, as the barge developed it was found to be necessary to limit the leeway and the leeboard came about. I cannot imagine that anyone thought in terms of a centre board.
My point is that the leeboard is moveable and can be used to balance the sailing rig, that is, to get the transverse force generated by the hull and the leeboard in line with the transverse force generated by the rig. This unloads the rudder.
In passing the leeboard came to have a very good section that is very like a thin, symmetrical aerofoil section.
Ivor Bittle