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Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Submarines => Topic started by: sub john on August 31, 2015, 09:58:28 PM

Title: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on August 31, 2015, 09:58:28 PM
HI All
        I thought i would start this topic by giving some of the electronic spec that the submarine had to meet, the main ballast tank controllers had to be solid state using power mosfet transistors for the forward and reverse plus it had to have dynamic breaking  they also had to work the same as the electronics in a standard servo but much bigger. These unit are linked to a lot of electronics which will keep the submarine perfectly horizontal, a couple of days ago i put the sub in a 9FT paddling pool as i could not wait to see if it would all come together and work i must confess i did have a few doubt's myself the sub was tried with out the deck on but i had to put some lead in to get the trim roughly right, started to dive the sub and i was very surprised to see just how well it all worked you could set the sub to be just 5inc down below the surface and it would just hover perfectly still in the water. If you looking at the gears on the ballast tank through the pressure plate top you could see the just the gears hunting to keep the sub level just moving a few grams of water about to keep the sub level and to keep it at a given depth.


        The sub all so had to have circuit to vent off air when the sub was starting to dive this circuit was all so linked to the front hydroplanes to make them fold down as it dives and then when the sub surfaces it folds the hydroplanes back up to take air back in to put it back to 1 bar pressure in other words normal air pressure this all so stops condensation. This circuit is all so linked to the electronics for the tank control steering and the differential throttle control  for the main drive motors had to switch out when the sub dives, the mosfet speed controllers that where  designed had been built in such a way it you weeded up on of the props the speed controller will shut down the software that is driving the mosfets so pulse by pulse if it is pulling heavy current more than it has been told to do it will shut the drives to the motor down.


        The sub has to switch it self on when you put it into the water, back hydroplanes are all level controlled as well front hydroplanes work on level control and depth  control as well. All the electronics sit on alloy plate as cooling for all mosfet drive circuit sorry to say guys i don't think you will be doing this with micro switches you will see magic smoke if you try.


        All sound effects will be stored on a micro SD card must say a big thanks to Tim for editing the diesel sound that he did for me i think it turned out really well  i am really pleased with the way it has turned out at the moment as it should be interesting to see how it all works when it is finished will have to try to put some pictures up. Have read a couple of posts on making black smoke i would like to fit this in to the sub i think i know how to do it but again it means hitting it with some electronics to get it to work but we will see.
                    All the best Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on October 03, 2015, 05:19:02 PM
Few photos, nearly ready for the water
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 03, 2015, 09:39:41 PM
Hi Tim
         I see you have put the pictures up that you took of the conning tower today, have still got allot more detail i won't to put on the conning tower and won't to do alto of detail on the deck as well. One thing that i was not happy about is when i started to drill the periscope shears they just started to brake up, if you look at the ones that are on the conning tower now i made them out of plastic card and plastic tube with brass tube inserts for the periscopes to work that took a week to make and was a bit of a hard job to fit all the LEDS in for search light light on front of periscope shears and port and starbird lights, but it all seems to be coming together. This afternoon when you went i finished making the railings for the front of the conning tower so all the railings on the conning tower are finished apart from a bit of filing.
         
         Don't know wheather to put weld lines on the hull and on the conning tower have seen it done on some models but the weld line seems to stick out to far from the hull, after seeing really photos of a real Gato so just don't know if to put them on or not i know you said you did not think it was worth it but i will see.


         On one of the pictures of the hull that you took you can see some electronics on top of a PCB board that board acts as a screen between the electronics on the top under that there is a alloy plate which as got all the main power control circuits for tanks motors regulator circuits which acts as a big heat sink for all the electronics, under that alloy plate there is 4 packs of Nickel metal hydride 7.2 volts at 4.6 amps which are wired in parallel when charged gives me about 19.4 amps which should give me a good running time. Under the battries metal shot has been placed along the hole of the hull inside the water tight compartment resin was poured on top to make a false floor for the battries to sit on, then in to the false floor was inserted captive nuts for the piston tanks to bold down to front and back which has lead to a very stable sub when on the surface it will be interesting to see how it all works out when it is finished.
      Nice to see you today Tim hope some of the advice helpted you  All the best John 
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on October 12, 2015, 06:23:39 AM
Any updates?
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 15, 2015, 09:20:59 PM
HI Salmon
      You asked if there has been any up dates to the build, i have now fitted all railings on the deck have been doing a lot of detail for about a week and a half now most of the detail is done. I have just made the front light which sits towards the bow have got to do the one on the back of the sub, i am going to make the periscopes go up and down and get the radar go up and down and turn, but what the plan is in the next few days is take it out and try it before i get Pauline to do the pain job on it and then i will concentrate on getting all the nic-nacs to work over the winter. There is not much to do to the deck now before it is finished what slowed me down is all the electronics that is inside. I spook to Engel in Germany a few days ago told him what i had been up to with the fet switching and software for the piston tanks he said they tried to get it to work with fets but could not get it to work, one of the things he asked me was how long was the delay between filling and emptying the tanks and i said there was none. The controlled board for the tanks could be used to make a very big proportional servo it works that well.


       I will have to take some pictures and get them posted up trouble is i have been hard at it trying to get it built, and now weather is changing it does not help
                                      All the best John
                   PS Do you think i should do weld lines on the hull not sure what to do about this one
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on October 16, 2015, 07:03:48 AM
Simple answer is yes, do the weld lines. You are being painstakingly detail oriented on the superstructure that it would be a shame to leave the bottom naked.
Here is the launching of the Herring SS-233

(http://i1089.photobucket.com/albums/i345/t_chalfant/Herring_SS-233_zpsuyznavbk.jpg) (http://s1089.photobucket.com/user/t_chalfant/media/Herring_SS-233_zpsuyznavbk.jpg.html)

You can see weld lines.


So, I would put them in. Look at other subs here at NavSource (you probably know of this resource) http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/04idx.htm (http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/04idx.htm)


Part of the beauty of these subs, in my opinion, is the rougher surface and weld lines.
What ever you choose to do, it will be a great sub.
Peace,
Tom
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 16, 2015, 10:20:09 PM
HI Salmon
      Thanks for saying that you think i should do the weld lines, i think that i will now put them on trouble is the weld lines seem to look big on some of the subs and that puts me off them. I have just been playing around doing weld lines on plastic card using  thin thread gluing them down with super glue just to see what they would look like after being sprayed sanded down and sprayed again and the end result it looked quite good, like you said it would be ashame to do detail on the deck and conning tower and leave the hull bear.


      On the Engal Gato kit they put the inlet's and outlet's for the piston tanks on the out side of the hull  which quite supprized me why i say that is as the pistons take water in or out they will turn in to bow and Stearn thrusters mine are in the free flood area which seems to work quite well as i can put the sub in to a hover just sitting dead still in the water


      The seals on the original kit for the folding hydroplanes and for the prop shafts that idea was scraped and went for much better seals using sealed bearings and lip seals end result you don't get air leaking out of the prop shafts when the pistons suck water in the air pressure inside the air compartment goes up it starts to leak, them when you surface the pistons blow the water out the air pressure can not go back to 1 bar pressure result is you suck water in through the prop shafts or the propshaft for the folding hydroplanes. That's another resin why i have fitted a venting system
      Thanks for sending picture and links on Gato
          All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on October 18, 2015, 10:10:09 PM
John,


I say it a lot, I love the Gato/Balao subs, your sub is coming along great. Please keep posting, even if it seems insignificant to you, there is a lot to learn and share in our hobby. This sub will look great in the water! I especially want to see your work on the welds.
Peace,
Tom
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 20, 2015, 09:35:39 PM
HI Tom
      I must say i do like the Gato/Balao subs the same as you, i think you built a revel Gato kit i saw a post of it some where on some other forum. When i do the weld lines on the Gato if I'm not happy with them i will just sand them off but I'm pretty sure i can do a decent job of it, i placed the conning tower on the deck today outside placed the guns on it and i can say it is starting to take shape all the detail seems to take for ever but i do won't to do a good job of it, and won't it to look the part when it is finished. I have done more detail on this sub than i ever did on any of the others i built but I'm going to give you a laugh now my misses Pauline has been going around telling every one including Tim that came over to see us that it is her that is building the sub not me so what can i say.


      Hopefully won't to take it out at the week end and try it spent all of yesterday getting all the electronics set up it was all working OK but just wonted to run through it and make sure. Will have to take some pictures of the deck and post them up on here.
 
      Won't to try and take the big sub out next year as the misses will not let me take it till then as i am still healing inside after the op
    Thanks for coming back all the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on October 25, 2015, 07:52:32 PM
hello gato people.
well on with my engel now,not to sure about position for pressure tubes for pressure switch and static dive unit ?
the wiring diagram shows tubes at 30mm am I correct that this is 30mm from top edge of lower hull ?
cheers ab (my first sub build)
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 25, 2015, 10:30:48 PM
HI ABREESE                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         the tubes need to be at 30mm down from the water line on the sub the hose on the static depth controller needs to be 472mm long hope it helps                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               all the best john
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on October 26, 2015, 07:45:20 AM
 :-)) thank you,put me on the right track,any tips on how to get workshop a bit warmer.
just sorting out a December boat show for club,use of swimming pool available,can get me old darnells wet.
many thanks.alan
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 27, 2015, 10:03:16 PM
HI Alan
        You asked if i had any tips in getting your work shop warmer, sounds like you have the same problems as me when the winter comes you don't won't to be in the garage. This time of the year i do most of my stuff in my in door work shop much warmer. If you get any problems with building your gato give me a shout and hopefully i will be-able to sort it out, one of the biggest problems i have had was radio interference from the motors but i have sorted it out. Hope all goes well with your club show in December
     All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on October 28, 2015, 11:52:14 AM
thanks for reply,just placing piston tanks,servo brackets,etc going ok,also cut extra openings in middle deck piece can not work through a letter box!.
the show should be good,its local for my club and covers all aspects of the hobby,i have a darnell type v11 it goes really well in the swimming pool at the show,got her up from the bottom at 12 feet (toys eh).will be in touch if gato goes pear shaped.
cheers alan. for my sins commodore etherow model boat club stockport,check my website. etherowmodelboatclub.co.uk
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 31, 2015, 07:20:55 PM
Hi Alan
    Know what you mean working through letter box with just that center hatch on the water tight compartment, if you left it standard with just the center hatch open with the size of my hands i would not get all the electronic stuff inside.
   
     Been working on this week all the gear boxes and seals to make all the periscopes work and the radar i won't the radar to go up and down and all so rotate, i won't to get the gato finished before the start of the shows next year but because I'm trying to get so many bits working like the real sub it slows you down.


      I won't to try to take the big Gato to some shows next year as this year has not good for me to think about taking the big beast out
     All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on November 02, 2015, 07:41:59 AM
hello john.
got my servos in place,also pressure switch in and piped,we have a model engineering supplies shop in Macclesfield,got some nirosta 2mm stainless rod for servos very handy shop.sort of seeing the big picture now wiring done etc,will have to go to gym more often she is putting on weight now.
late reply due to mrs b taking a dive without a parachute spent some time at a-e a few days of my meals she will soon be up and running.
cheers ab
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on November 04, 2015, 06:54:11 PM
HI Alan
      Fine on the 2mm stainless rod for the servo linkages, what i have used for mine is the Sullivan gold-N- rod which are the semiflexible 506 blue/gold snakes that they use for model planes that way you don't have to worry about rods binding on bits in the sub, and you can bend the snakes to where you won't them to go which seems to work quite well for me.


      Did you put your ballast tanks front and back in at a angle, the tanks in mine fit straight down the center of the hull don't like the idea of off set ballast tanks but i suppose if you are using the gel type lead-acid battery's then i suppose you have to put them in at a angle.
     
       Hope your trip to A-E was not to serious. In the last year i have had enough of hospitals all i could say is thank goodness i have been discharged now
                            All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on November 04, 2015, 07:25:09 PM
John,
I think we all can say "Thank Goodness" that you are discharged and doing well!
Peace,
tom
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on November 05, 2015, 03:05:35 PM
hello.
its mrs b that went to a-e soon be on her feet with my cooking!
fitted my dive tanks as per,this is my first build of this type so following ENGEL plans etc,looked at your pics noticed the Sullivan cables,,do you just epoxy the outer in the bulkhead? maybe a good idea for the forward bow planes this is at all angles from the bulkhead.could you tell me the type of epoxy you fixed your middle deck with seems to be a lot of polyester resins about?
regards ab  :-))
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on November 05, 2015, 10:06:45 PM
HI Tom
      Seem to be doing quite well now, I push bike around 6 miles a day on my mountain bike and was even doing this just before i had the heart bypass it just goes to show even if you are fit it can still happen, if its in your jeans then there is not much you can do about it. That is what they said it was with me


      Thanks for good wishes all the best Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on November 05, 2015, 10:34:52 PM
HI Alan
      When your wife starts cooking your food don't have to many hamburgers, but on a serious note the Sullivan cables yes you do glue them in to the bulk heads but i don't like to epoxy them in  what i do first is ruffian the outside up with wet and dry paper then cover the outside with thick super glue where it is going to go through the bulk head, then after the super glue has dried then i will epoxy them into place. Reason is why i do that super glue will stick to plastic  but the epoxy won't stick to the plastic outer on the Sullivan cable, then what i do is put the bellows on the end of the Sullivan cables in the free flood areas the way i look at it is if they work in a model plane then they are good enough for a model submarine. But what i should point out i support the outer of the Sullivan cables about every 5-6 inches in side of the sub and in the free flood areas this way it stops alot of play in the cables. All my servos are connected up this way


       In the instructions that Engel send out with the Gato kit it states to bond the pressure plate in to the hull use polyester resin mixed with micro balloons idea is it will thicken up the resin so it doesn't run away from the joint that you are trying to glue  they use this idea for gluing model planes to keep the weight down i must say i don't like this idea very much not for a sub, what i use is a thing called liquid metal and if you won't to thicken it up a little bit just add talcum power, this stuff is so strong you can drill and tap it. I use this for prop shafts stuffing boxes with bearings and seals every thing in side the sub has been bonded in with it, have built this sub and this time there is not one piece of wood inside it every thing is plastic or fiber glass or poly-cardonate sheet
    Hope it helps All the best John
 
       
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on November 06, 2015, 08:10:22 AM
 :-))thanks for reply.
will go with Sullivan cables,i used one on a warship I built a few years ago.also the liquid metal I have been chasing my tail a bit with the resin thing did not want to use the wrong stuff!.
mrs b a lot better,had a good meal last night weight going back on.off for a bit of r and r Tuesday taking my old darnell type seven for a dip,also doing a t-class darnell in tandem with gato converted her to dive cylinder still in drydock.
all the best ab
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on November 07, 2015, 05:30:40 PM
HI Alan
      Fine on having a good meal last night, i built one of the darnell type 7 u-boat and i all so built the T-class where all these sub's went that i did years ago i do not know
      I'm going to send you  pm
         
  All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on December 07, 2015, 01:28:34 PM
few photos of the deck on the Gato.



Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on December 07, 2015, 05:58:30 PM
looking good John,  :-)) now you had pratice on your's, i'll drop mine off  {-)
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on December 08, 2015, 07:42:01 PM
HI Tim
           Nice to see you yesterday but I'm sorry but Pauline said she has not got time doing your sub she has had  enough of doing mine i don't know how she has got the nerve to say she has done it. But on a serious note yes the sub is coming along, i fitted the speaker on pressure plate today that's all ready to connect up to MP3 sound units, it was a bit of a job making that 5 pin plug and socket water proof but it will make it alot easier to take the deck away from the sub when working on it. It won't be long now before i try it


           Have got all the radio link built for under voltage warning for when the batteries are low but what has slowed me down is the periscopes getting the radar to go up and down and turn but i tried it all the other day and it all works fine. Think its a good idea that i have made the conning tower so you can unscrew it off the deck.


                    All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on December 11, 2015, 03:11:09 PM
looks good,just wringing more channels from my f14,like the brass work!.
merry xmas alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on December 11, 2015, 09:15:40 PM
HI Alan
      It is starting to take shape now it is supprizing how long it takes to do all the railings, just on at the moment trying to do the MP3 players for sound effects but at the moment i think it is getting to cold to go out and try the sub on the water
   
       You said you was trying to put extra channels on your F14 on my transmitter for the sub i have split one channel in to 12 on- off functions for selecting sound files on 1 of the MP3 players.


     Have a nice Christmas Alan all the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on February 14, 2016, 07:53:30 PM
Update
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on February 15, 2016, 10:49:12 PM
Hi Tim
      Thanks for posting pictures it's nice to see the model nearly finished now, all the self levering and the depth control electronics seem to be working spot on. In one of the pictures you have posted the sub is sitting about half way up the periscope shears and sat there for 20 Min's until i emptied the tanks now i know it all works i will have to start on the weld lines on the hull and conning tower and then get it sprayed but it is to cold to start thinking about spraying any way i will soon be able to bring it over to Derby.
                    All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on February 16, 2016, 03:32:15 AM
Very exciting to see! Seems like in no time we will see her maiden voyage!
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on February 16, 2016, 06:06:58 PM
It would be interesting to read some details on the new electronic board you devised to replace the Engel item.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on February 16, 2016, 08:41:57 PM
HI Salmon
       Thanks for reply, i must confess it has been a long time in the build but it is the electronics that slows you down when you have to design it and then build it, but i must say i am impressed in how well it worked in the test tank. At one point i thought it was sat on the bottom but it wasn't it was just hovering in the water, and like you said it won't be long before it goes out on it's maiden voyage. But i keep working on more ideas to go into these subs what i will have to do is put up some pictures of all the mechanics that works the radar and periscopes which will go up and down to where you won't them to be they work the same as a digital proportional servo, what i did was mod a sail winch which got me a bit worried about all the weight under the deck at the back all the bits that connect to the deck are water proof sockets and plugs that i made which makes it easy to work on the deck away from the hull. All so made the conning tower removable of the deck which again makes things easy when you spray it
              All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on February 16, 2016, 09:11:46 PM
Hi Subculture
        Was not very impressed the way the TMAX control board worked, the idea of using relays for switching the tank forward and backwards leaves a bit to be desired to say the least but that is just my own thoughts. The control board that has gone in to the Engel  gato works the same as a proportional servo but this only works the last 20 percent of the fill of the tank the other 80 percent can be switched in or out where ever you won't it to be the same as a normal piston tank, but the last 20 percent of the tank on the back and the front tank work off a presetable depth that can be selected from the TX at what depth you won't it to hover  there is all so 2 levelers one operats the front and one works the back tank. I bet you are saying why two but there is a good reason for it one of the problems that comes it to this it if you just filled the front tank to 94 percent the back tank has to go to 94 percent as well but still has to work full proportional movement  but the back tank has no longer got to work under depth control from the depth sencor what works the front tank but still has to work under level control so the front tank keeps it at the depth you wont it to be and the back tank keeps hunting to keep it level, which it can move grams of water at a time just to keep it level. The two drive boards are using  pics to control the logic as you can understand you would not be-able to do this using relays they just would not last very long. The control boards for the tanks have got H bridge switching using fets which all so has dynamic braking. The boards could deliver 80 AMPS if need be but of course they don't pull any thing near that.


                 All the best John 
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on February 16, 2016, 11:11:34 PM
john,
Just a curious question, on my Gato and I have heard others see the same issue, when the sub is surfacing, there is a slight list as it is rising. Do you see that in your sub as it is going from submerged to fully surfaced?
Peace,
tom
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on February 17, 2016, 03:43:34 PM
I never observed that happening in the couple of Engel Gato's I've seen working. I think that may be a factor in models that employ ballast systems with an exposed water surface when emptying the tank.

John, did you complimentary P and N Mosfets for the h-bridge or use all N-channel with a charge pump for the high side switching?

Also do the PIC's run a full PID loop, or you using some simpler to control the motor?

Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on February 17, 2016, 06:32:07 PM
HI Salmon
              You asked about when the Engel Gato surfaces does it list to one side i can not say that i have seen any thing that i would be worried about, i think allot of this could be down to to much  top weight which would make it rock when surfacing plus on the Gato when fully surfaced there is a lot of deck out of the water which does not help plus if you are talking about the Revel Gatos the plastic deck from what i can remember is quite heavy which is not a good thing to have which would probably make it tilt to one side. I have seen people fitting foam to the inside of the hull to try to stop this, if you looked at the real sub it has got saddle tanks on the outside of the main hull this is to make it more stable when on the surface as they act as big floats on the side of the hull which would give you a more stable sub when on the surface and plus you can alter side trim as well.
           All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on February 17, 2016, 06:46:56 PM
HI Subculture
        The board for the tanks has got P and N channel fet's to work as the H bridge the circuit for the H bridge if you switch both sides on at the same time as you know the H bridge would blow but the way this work if you switch both on at the same time it would not do anything would just stay switched off.


        Why i stopped away from using high and low sided driver is if you don't switch the fets off and on at say a high enough frequency  then the charge pumps on the high sided drivers would not charge enough to drive the high sided gates on the fets. The board that i have done has got logic level fets on it and it would work any where from 6 to 24 volts can't see there being a problem the gates on the logic fets are protected against over volts on the gates i have tried to blow it up but it is still working. The circuit boards are all SMD components the fets don't even have heat sinks on them as they don't even get warm i must say I'm pleased with the end result as it does seem to work well.
                               All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on February 17, 2016, 10:01:08 PM
John,
I was not clear in my explanation. It is not a permanent list, it is a slight tip as it is surfacing. It will right itself immediately. I found an explanation for the quick list and uprighting in an engineer tutorial about the center of gravity as it changes between a sub and a boat.
Just curious if you see that in your larger scale.
Peace,
Tom
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on March 03, 2016, 09:23:00 PM
HI Tom
      You said that the sub just tilts as it surfaces and then rights itself like you said it can change about the center of gravity, but i think that some of it can be down to the sub having to much top weight around the conning tower and the keel weight not being low enough. Even if you look at the big sub of mine when the sub has dived and then has  surfaced  with all the water that is under the deck and on top of the deck and on the conning tower the sub always sits lower in the water until all the water has drained off, I'm sure you have noticed this your self which again it does play a part in the sub tilting when surfacing. I can not say that i have ever seen the big sub tilt to one side as it surfaces and i can not say that i have seen it on the Engel Gato.


       Have been on the last week doing the weld lines on the hull and the deck sides and  on conning tower have finished doing it all but now have got to start sanding it down and start to think about spraying but the weather is a bit to cooled to think about that.
                         
                                All the best Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on March 04, 2016, 12:28:00 AM
John,
Good to hear from you and that you gave consideration to my ramblings.
Here is a youtube showing my sub running in one of its shakedowns and at about 1:48 into the video as the pumps are bringing up the sub, you may see the slight tilt happen.


[size=78%]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_Zh16zExY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fR_Zh16zExY)[/size]


I agree that more/lower weight in the keel can offset this, however with a 1/72 scale, there is not enough room for more for more foam to offset the extra weight. That transition does have a lot happening including the surface tension holding on to the deck as it exits the water.


Look forward to your detailing and more photos!


Peace,
Tom

Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on March 04, 2016, 10:04:15 AM
If you could increase the metacentric height on the boat, it would make the boat less agile underwater. So it's a compromise.

You have a large tank in that boat, as it empties you then have a large movable weight in the form of an exposed water surface, a bit of chop in the water or a slight breeze is all that is required to momentarily push the boat one way or another, and the water shifts in the tank and accentuates the tilt. Once the tank is empty or very nearly so, the shifting weight is gone, and the boat then stable.

This will happen in any boat, however in a boat with a very small tank in relation to overall displacement, the weight shift is much smaller, and thus so is the influence on the boats trim. In a nutshell it's unlikely to bother the owner/operator.

If you have a system with a constantly shifting baffle e.g. piston tank you won't see this happen unless the boat is totally unstable anyway. But that means a DIY WTC.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on March 05, 2016, 07:09:07 PM
HI TOM
      I think doing model submarines is very much some times a compromise in trying to get it to work half right, it must be really nice to try the sub in a swimming pool like what i saw on your video and to be honest i thought it worked very well, and i did notice when you emptied the tanks it did tilt to the left looking from the back of the sub. Do you use a tube for your water tight compartment i myself like the idea of using  a flat plate bonded in to the hull on the water line as it makes the sub more stable but like i said it some times has to be a compromise and it is very much the same some times messing about with electronics.


       yes you are right about surface tension holding the deck to the surface of the water when trying to completely blow the tanks, this again was a major problem with the big sub to sort this one out  i had to drill hundreds of half inch holes in the deck so the air could escape  when diving  and when surfacing to let the air back in on top of these holes is all the wood planking so you can not see any of the holes but the air can come in and out between the planks of wood on the deck. I spent 2 weeks planking that deck and would not like to do it again
               All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on March 12, 2016, 06:09:01 PM
Popped round today to see how John was getting on with the build(only to find the Mrs spraying the boat  {-) )

not long till finished
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on March 13, 2016, 12:06:08 AM
Coming along nicely. Love the monitor too!
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: thegrimreaper on March 13, 2016, 03:14:55 PM
Big subs and BIG pets John lol nice monitor


Regards Mark
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on March 13, 2016, 03:20:55 PM
few more photos of the desk sprayed
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on March 13, 2016, 03:37:56 PM
HI Salmon
      It's a lot of work to get to this point to be-able to spray it i don't think the weld lines have come out to bad on the hull, glad you liked the bosc monitor but he is still a baby at 14 months, but we will have to make sure there is no cats in the garden when he goes out or he will look at it as DINNER they move very quick as they will catch a rabbit
                       All the best Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on March 13, 2016, 03:49:03 PM
HI Mark
       Yes you are right big subs and big pets the trouble is he is still growing and got another year and a half growing time to go. He is lovely natured but a lot of them can be nasty i didn't think i would get another reptile like Gizmo the bearded dragon we lost last year but you have to spend time with them to make them what you won't them to be.


       I have thought about training him to go after surface boats and sinking them all i would have to do is put a prawn on  the back of a model boat in a pool and he would soon get the idea that the boat has food on it and all he has to do is catch it to get the food lol but only joking
            All the best Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on March 15, 2016, 06:26:33 PM
deck now painted
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on March 15, 2016, 07:00:45 PM
Garden furniture seems to be getting a coat too!
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on March 15, 2016, 09:09:03 PM
HI Andy
    The garden table has copt it its got more holes drilled in it than a tea strainer when i have finished building the sub it's going down the tip. But i have told Pauline that i will buy her a new table and chairs and to be honest Pauline sprayed the sub
                     All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on March 16, 2016, 10:05:35 PM
few more.  :-))
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on March 20, 2016, 02:30:45 PM
...
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on March 20, 2016, 09:15:09 PM
HI Tim
     It's not far away from being finished now had it in the test tank yesterday got it all trimmed up, the only thing i seem to have a problem with was the periscopes sticking because i decided to spray them with silicone spray, but i have had to strip them down today and have done some reworking on them so i hope they will be OK after i have finished. But the main thing is there is no air leaks and no water coming in not a drop. Need to take it out and do a test run to see how it works then, thanks for posting pictures
                      All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on April 09, 2016, 08:38:26 PM
John got some new gun for the gato as the kit ones are now up to scratch. god they do look a lot better
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: spooksgone on April 11, 2016, 03:10:33 PM
Very very nice :-)) I am jealous!
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 12, 2016, 08:21:38 PM
HI Spooksgone
        It does look better with the new guns on the conning tower, the guy that made them has made a really good job have still got to get the deck cannon and the other gun behind the conning tower on the deck.
                All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on April 17, 2016, 07:30:38 PM
Todays sea trials,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xDepdHZT8I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xDepdHZT8I)
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: derekwarner on April 17, 2016, 11:17:27 PM
Excellent underwater video Tim :-))..what sort of shaft RPM was she doing @ 1:07 minutes?........ Derek
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on April 18, 2016, 03:27:27 AM
I looks like a cleat got knocked off when you did the head on passing, it shows up in the swirl. It looks great in the water!
Well done sir!
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 18, 2016, 09:48:28 PM
HI Tim
     Thanks for doing video, but i hope you are going to go and get my cleat from off the bottom of that lake i don't think i could have got much closer the bit that got me was your front hydroplane on your sub. It's a good job i didn't hit it head on
                      All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 18, 2016, 10:01:46 PM
Hi Salmon
       Fine about the cleat getting knocked off that was the only thing that got hit it was close when i went by, to be honest if i open the sub up to full throttle it really does move. One of the things that does work well is the circuit boards that i did for the control of the piston tanks . I had it in a hoover on the lake standing still it worked well, but what i must say when the sub was being filmed i didn't know that i had broken the linkage to the back hydroplanes so the level control on the back hydroplanes was not working, so what was happening was the back tank was working in self leveling mode trying to take the place of the level control working in place of the  back hydroplane.
                     All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: TomHugill on April 18, 2016, 10:35:25 PM
Hi John, are the tanks the proportional ones? I'm very interested in your control board as I have a couple of engel subs and aren't a big fan on all the relays
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: U-33 on April 19, 2016, 06:59:48 AM
John Robinson! Looks good, matey...nice work. Pauline still sprays a grand job....  %)
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 19, 2016, 08:34:41 PM
HI Tom
         Yes the control boards are fully proportional and the boards do not use relays, the board uses moss fets for switching even the board that switches the sub on when you put it in the water has no relays on it, i myself do not trust relays for high powered jobs. The engel Gato that i have done has got small signal relays in it but only for simple jobs like switching sound effects on and lights and so on if you was to use relays for controlling the tanks in this sub of mine they would not last long thanks for the interest
            All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 19, 2016, 08:41:29 PM
Hi Richard
      Yes Pauline does do a great job at spraying, it seems to work quite well I'm pleased with it. When we tried it on Sunday it ran around for 2 hours and when i got back home there was not a drop of water inside which has got to be a good sign.


        Don't know if anybody has got a cleat to fit a Gato has i seem to have lost one it's a good job i didn't hit the front of Tim's Neptune head on i think i would have sank it.
             All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Akira on April 26, 2016, 01:33:29 AM
Fantastic! Beautiful build, wicked video, even with the cleat. Really impressive, BRAVO ZULU
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 26, 2016, 07:51:00 PM
HI Akira
         Thanks very much for your nice comments, hopefully will get some pictures up on hear that was took of the sub sailing on Sunday but i have got to ask if it is OK to post them up on hear first but i think the pictures have turned out really good.


          Thanks for your interest John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on April 27, 2016, 06:10:15 PM
please check out these photos taken on Sunday

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianrichardson68/sets/72157665225446863 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ianrichardson68/sets/72157665225446863)

Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: thegrimreaper on April 27, 2016, 08:52:26 PM
Fantastic Photo`s fantastic looking sub John nicely done


Regards Mark.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 28, 2016, 07:57:05 PM
HI Tim
     Thank's for putting up link to pictures
          All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on April 28, 2016, 08:03:02 PM
HI Mark
        Glad you liked the pictures i must confess i was very impressed with the way they came out, it's been a lot of work to get the sub finished but it does seem worth while when you see the pictures which was done by Ian Richardson, who is in the Derby model boat club Alveston Pirates
                       All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on May 10, 2016, 04:17:11 PM
 :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: gato now sealed up,used liquid metal to bond,top job,had trouble with bow plane mech sticking at half travel retract last resort removed it from hull stripped it down rebuilt it only thing found the belt guide needed to be filed down a bit runs ok now. next job get it wet and hope no bubbles.
I purchased the typhoon from batfish the other week,this will more than likely take me closer to total insanity!
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: derekwarner on May 10, 2016, 04:26:53 PM
Yes....great images..& the B&W is so lifelike...although the navigation P & S  lights sure do help too  O0............

Are all of the running shots filtered to create this B&W+ limited colour realism?............Derek
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on May 10, 2016, 05:58:00 PM
Hi derekwarner_decoy,


yep the photo's were filtered with photoshop for the effect. Ian does a get job when doing our club photos, just wish the file sizes where a bit smaller (20meg per photo  {-) )
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: U-33 on May 11, 2016, 08:27:23 AM
Very nice, JR...good to see you haven't lost your touch.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on May 11, 2016, 08:29:52 PM
Hi Abreese
        Yes i had a problem with the front hydroplanes on my gato, what i found it to be on mine was the drive belt when it went in one direction was rolling off the guides on the idle wheel so what i did was put 2 small pieces of poly carb sheet both sides of the idle wheel stuck to the gray plastic support where the gears are, after i had done that never had another problem it runs smoother and faster folding the hydroplanes up and down.


        Fine on buying another sub i have had enough at the moment after building this Engel Gato, i don't know weather i will build another one after this. I have got so many things i won't to do but may be when i have had a break from building the Gato i might feel different.


                           All the best John


Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on May 11, 2016, 08:36:39 PM
HI Richard
      It did turn out quite well it was worth spending the extra time on it, was hoping to take it to bornville show but at the moment Pauline is not very well so don't know if i will be able to go.
                                  All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: U-33 on May 11, 2016, 09:05:11 PM
Oh heck mate...hope she soon feels better, give her my best wishes.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on May 11, 2016, 09:52:31 PM
thanks john.
rebuilt it today it runs better,but till puts load on the drive,will give your idea a whirl,dont like the pong of a hot motor!.
cheers ab
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on May 24, 2016, 07:53:20 PM
hi john.
got the gato wet (paddling pool) a couple of leaks to sort nothing major,but the bow plane still playing up,so out with the piston tank and the drive unit.
say out of 6 operations it would jam once.
have found the shaft which the worm is on that carries the plate for the micro switches the rear switch the end of travel of the shaft the shaft goes to far and hits the plastic end plate and will not set of on the return stroke,stripped it all down and re-adjusted the collar with the grub screw in,there is a flat on the bar or shaft this looks like its done the trick,just tried 20 ops and no jams a bit of fine tuning a bit annoying when the beggars in the boat. builders beware.
alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on May 24, 2016, 10:38:31 PM
HI Alan
       I must admit that i did play around with the micro switches for the end stops on the folding hydroplanes, other thing i should say is had problems with the micro switches on the back tank as well.      so watch out for that one it is the micro switch which travels down the thread this one had me thinking it was the control board that was at fault but of course it was not. Other thing that i found with the folding hydroplanes was that when you first switched the sub on the front hydroplanes would try to jam what i did was i made a solid state switch which was timed to stay off for about 4 seconds when the sub was first switched on, this solid state switched cuts the power to the main drive motor to the hydroplanes while the logic sorts it self out never had a problem since. Other thing i did was put universal cuplink on the shaft for the folding hydroplanes in the free flood area, i made my own stuffing boxes with seals and bearings did not like the idea of the seals on the Engel kit.
     
       Have took my Gato out a few times now and it does work very well never had any leaks and pleased to say all the electronics work well should have done more of a build log than i did but i had to many electronic projects on the go, my bench at the moment is full of bits as i am working on a digital power pack
                          All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on May 25, 2016, 07:47:18 AM
 :-)) fitted a coupling myself,will give it another set of tests today then replace it in boat,these micro-switches are a mass produced item so a few little rogues may get through?.
 but I think in my case it was travel adjustment.
thanks for reply alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 14, 2016, 08:10:14 PM
HI All
      Took the Engel Gato to the Alveston pirates regatta at Derby on Sunday it was very wet but  never the less still had a good day. Ian Richardson took so very good photos of the model boats and the sub some pictures can be found of the sub in the middle of page one and at the end of page two link to it can be found below


https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fianrichardson68%2Fsets%2F72157669187439242&h=oAQEZxH4N (https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fianrichardson68%2Fsets%2F72157669187439242&h=oAQEZxH4N)
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on June 26, 2016, 10:21:31 PM
got some great shoots underwater today are fitting light to my neptune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3znZpPnCfI&feature=youtu.behttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3znZpPnCfI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3znZpPnCfI&feature=youtu.behttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3znZpPnCfI&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on June 27, 2016, 11:53:04 AM
 :embarrassed: :embarrassed: :embarrassed: just got to the ballast and trim stage,had a little disaster'''''''' the battery 6v-12ah sla moved and the actuator rod clipped it and wrecked the taes unit.the main reason for my post can you recommend any other batt than the bulky sla.the sla takes up so much room in an already tight area.also fitted clear acrylic tops so I can see it damage itself!.
cheers the ever cheerful alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on June 27, 2016, 12:00:40 PM
Lithium batteries are the answer 5-7 times the energy density of lead acid, so much more compact. 2S liFE batteries will give you 6.6 volts. Lipo will give a higher voltage at 7.4 volts.

I expect the TAES board is repairable.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on June 27, 2016, 03:07:54 PM
thanks for reply,i use lipo in a couple of my surface boats,will try lithium from what you say,as you may tell this is my first sub complete build up till this gato I have run and refurbed two old darnells sort of analogue! run my darnells on pack batts a little short on get up and go,so will have crack at the lithium.
with hindsight its my fault the sla moved in the hull,this learning curve getting steeper.
many thanks.
nb gbp strong at moment if taes a basket case.
alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on June 27, 2016, 04:52:43 PM
GBP strong? You mean weak don't you?
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 27, 2016, 05:31:25 PM
Hi Alan
     Sorry to hear about problems with your Gato if you would like me to have a look at the board i might be able to sort it out, i have all so got a brand new TMAX board for my Gato which i did not use you can all ways send me a PM


     But i do not like the idea about using lipo's in model submarines reason being they use alloy tags coming out of the cells and they tend to corrode with damp air in side of a submarine plus if fresh water comes in to contact with a split jacket on a cell in a lipo pack it will go up like a flair but if you was to put a split cell in to salt water it would neutralise it. I use NI-MH cells plus you can get them low down and use them as keel weight but that is just my thought on using liop's i know people do use them in subs but i would not like to take the chance.
                 All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 27, 2016, 05:34:30 PM
HI Tim
          Thought the under water video came out really well with the lights on your Neptune thanks for posting video up will give you a ring later
            All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on June 27, 2016, 05:51:28 PM
You can get lithium batteries in cell format, tougher than the sack type cells which are more popular owing to their lighter weight . The LiFE batteries I mentioned are more stable than Lipo.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: U-33 on June 28, 2016, 09:11:08 AM
That old Gato looks pretty good, JR...very realistic under way.


How's Pauline, by the way...better now, I hope? Give her my best wishes..
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on June 28, 2016, 09:07:47 PM
hello john.
will go with the ni-mh batts component shop do 9000mAh or5000mAh at 7.2v these should do the trick,just make up the weight diff when I finish ballast,its the static depth controller that got damaged not the tmax but I can live with that for now,took my darnell t-class to the lake to-day for some r and r.
cheers alan b :-))
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 28, 2016, 09:30:04 PM
HI Rich
    Took it out on Sunday to Derby i am very pleased with the way it works the sub has been a testing ground for a lot of electronics, it's been out about 6 times now and all i do is just wash it down and put it on charge. Pauline said it has got to be the best sub you have made up to now it is so controlable it is unreal. Rob Fowler and a friend of his that was with him said they have never seen a sub work so well which was really nice of them to say, hopefully will take it to bournville sub dive in next time.


    thanks for asking about Pauline she was ill for about 5 weeks but seems to be OK now thanks Pauline sends her best wishes to you
          All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 28, 2016, 09:49:13 PM
HI Alan
     I use 4 packs of 7.2v ni-mh they are wired in parallel each pack is 4800mah it works out at 19amps have run the sub for 2.5 hours and the battries are only half empty so i can live with that and with the charger i have got i can charge them if need be in 1.5 hours but of course i don't need to do it but it is always nice to have the charger to do it with . And the idea of using that square lead acid battery its the wrong shape to put into a model sub with these threaded rods that get in the way like you have found out i don't mean it in a funny way that's why i got rid of that   idea in mine and don't like the idea of off set tanks to make the rods miss the battery but this is just my own thoughts
   
      If it is your depth sensor i might be-able to fix it if you won't me to
                  All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on June 28, 2016, 11:26:29 PM
hello john.
the sensor is in three parts,they have been pulled of the p.c.b do you think its a basket case ?
alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 29, 2016, 07:23:29 PM
HI Alan
       
There is a good chance i would probably be able to repair it, if you won't to send it to me let me know and i will send you a PM with name and address
      All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on June 29, 2016, 08:13:28 PM
 :-)) thank you will scrape up bits and pack it.
cheers ab
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 29, 2016, 09:36:38 PM
HI Alan
sent you a PM with address
   John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: thegrimreaper on July 01, 2016, 11:47:20 AM
if this cant be fixed John I have a couple of them here spare


Mark.

Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on July 01, 2016, 08:23:32 PM
HI Mark
       Thanks for the offer if i can not fix it i will send you a PM but hopefully if it has not ripted the tracks  off the board should be able to fix it
    All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on July 02, 2016, 10:13:07 PM
HI Alan
      I have fixed your board it had ripted some of the tracks off the PCB board, repaired the tracks and fitted bits back on will post it back to you on Monday
               All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on July 03, 2016, 07:56:11 AM
 :-))many thanks.
will try to be more careful next time,next job juggle new batts and extra ballast.
cheers john.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: U-33 on July 03, 2016, 09:58:05 AM
He's a clever old boy, is our JR...
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on July 03, 2016, 04:50:20 PM
 :D people like john are all what the hobby is about.
alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: U-33 on July 03, 2016, 05:47:01 PM
He's not a bad lad, bless his little cotton undies...
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on July 03, 2016, 10:51:29 PM
HI Alan and Richard
       Thanks for the comments i do like to try and help people if i can, any way Pauline is going to post it back tomorrow when she is out at work. I have just brought myself a new spectrum analyzer and a new 4 channel scope so that should keep me out of trouble for a while
               All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on July 04, 2016, 08:53:01 AM
 :-X will the analyser work out where all my money goes ?
ab
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on July 04, 2016, 09:05:44 PM
HI Alan
    Sorry to say it won't tell you where all your money is going, but it will tell you lots of other things but we won't go to far in to that. Pauline sent your board back today should get it by 1PM tomorrow
    All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on July 05, 2016, 07:15:50 AM
hi john.
maybe its the 14 model boats,3 submarines and a few other toys ,that lot cost well over a tenner.
thanks again john.
alan the skint
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on July 06, 2016, 03:45:02 PM
 :-))s d u arrived ok.
again thanks a lot john
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on July 06, 2016, 05:57:28 PM
Yea John a electronic genius and help me out loads. forever greatfull for all the bits i blown and he got working again.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on July 06, 2016, 08:38:27 PM
HI Alan
    Glad you got the board OK hope it works OK for you
   All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on July 06, 2016, 08:47:13 PM
HI TIM
      You know i don't mind helping you have helped me with bits that's what it's all about, didn't see you on Sunday as i went flying.


      Bo our Bosc Monitor has gone in the mirror web page Maplins in Loughborough has got a poster in the window Reptiles welcome, and they won't to come out and do pictures and a story it has started to go a bit mad he is a celebrity will have to charge for pictures soon
      All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on July 30, 2016, 04:35:14 PM
hi john,
what material are you using for gasket,i am using silicone gel sheet 2mm thick. I have had to remove top a couple of times and the gel sheet seems to stretch. this has resulted in a leak or two.
cheers alan b
.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on July 30, 2016, 09:58:57 PM
HI Alan
     I use silicone bath sealent to make the gaskets, what i do first is the poly carb sheet has had all the holes drilled to match the holes on the pressure plate top so they all line up with the bolts that are bonded in from underneath once i know all this is lined up then i spray PVA mould release agent on the under side of the poly carb sheet i then apply about 1/2 inch thick silicone bath sealent around the screws on the top of the pressure plate forming like a cone shape all the way down the center line of the screws i now place the poly card sheet down on to it and to make it so that the poly card sheet can not compress to much of the silicone out i place on the edge of the poly card sheet about every 5 inches apart M4 nuts to use them as spacers and then i put some M4 nuts on the bolts to keep the poly carb sheet down to stop the gasket miss shaping leave it for about 4-5 days while the silicone is going off the beauty about using the PVA is when you won't to pull the poly carb sheet off the new formed gasket just put it in the bath let it soak in water and the PVA will just dissolve leaving a dead smooth gasket. But what i should have said is you can go around the edges and cut any excess of silicone gasket away before you put it in the bath.
         
     Trouble is if you are trying to put a gel gasket on to the pressure plate top that is 2mm thick you have got to bond it down to stop it from moving  around, what i would do is to put a bead of silicone on to the pressure plate top then put the gel gasket down on to it then put the poly carb  sheet down on to the gel gasket and put some nuts or bolts which ever you are using to squeeze out any excess silicone from under the silicone gel sheet. But to be honest i always make my own then i can make them as thick as i won't them.


     Trouble is with alot of silicone bath sealent the fumes that come off it will attack electronic components until it has gone off so i always try to do this before i put any thing in the sub
     Hope it helps All the best John       
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on July 31, 2016, 04:56:00 PM
see your point about the gasket on the move.just done the fore and aft covers gasket plus bond with sealer result ok.making a new top for main cover just found a hairline crack from one of the holes uphill aint the word.
many thanks for info.
alan,
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on August 01, 2016, 11:38:19 AM
hi john.
going ok now a little more ballast in hull,new top made,due to space left I have 3 7.2v 4600mah packs in the boat,any ideas what kind of charger for these 3 in parallel not to concerned how long the charge takes.
alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on August 01, 2016, 10:11:58 PM
HI Alan
      One of the chargers i use is a few years old now but the charging software is very good plus you can charge your main battries in your sub and charge your transmitter at the same time, it is a graupner ultra duo plus 30  and I'm sure you can still get it. I brought a IMAZ B80 charger/discharger that works quite well but i did a bit of reworking on the balancing for the Lipos trouble is today it is not worth trying to make chargers because there is so many out there which is so cheap, but then again you only get what you pay for.


       Glad to see you are making progress on building your Engel Gato it is alot of work which you are finding out, but i can say i would not like to make mine again the thing that slows me down is having to design the electronics.


                      All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on August 02, 2016, 04:59:02 PM
hi john.
am I right to assume you can parallel charge with this type of charger on nimh batts.
alan
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on August 03, 2016, 07:27:33 PM
HI Alan
     The first thing i would do if you was putting 3 packs together in parallel i would charge each pack on it's own till it is fully charged then put the 3 packs together and leave them connected together that way you can discharge and charge them all together. I have got 4 packs connected in my Engel Gato and it works fine, and with that Graupner charger you can parallel charge them and just alter the time that the charger will stay on for charging and you can alter the charge current
     Hope it helps John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on August 03, 2016, 10:05:21 PM
John,
What amp do you charge your NiMh? do you use 1 amp, 0.7 amp, or what?
Peace,
Tom
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on August 04, 2016, 05:03:24 PM
hi john and all.
a club member has just found me a jamara x-peak 3 plus charger does lipo  nimh the lot should do the trick,in answer to the last post from salmon 14 cells charge @21v 2.3amp. 1.5v per cell
5cell 7.5v @5.00amp
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Netleyned on August 04, 2016, 05:29:14 PM
Alwas thought nihms were 1.2 v
5 cells  6 v.
Charging current depends on capacity.
Or have I been doing it wrong ?


Ned
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on August 04, 2016, 05:46:06 PM
hi.
I was just reading of the manual with the charger showing a table of cell per volt per amps up to 15 cells these chargers alter the rate and charge and discharge according to battery state.
alan
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Netleyned on August 04, 2016, 05:54:46 PM
A lot of the 12v so called smart chargers give you a fast charge rate
to charge in the field to keep you flying.
Apart from fast electrics, most marine applications use a more
sedate discharge and therefore will benefit from a more sedate
charge.


Ned
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on August 04, 2016, 09:19:32 PM
HI Alan
   What you said is spot on about charging nimh cells fully charged at 1.5 volt per cell but the delta detect circuit in the charger would be switching off at 1.54 volts, so if you was charging 4 cells the cut off voltage of the 4 fully charged cells would be about 6.16 volts.
   
     I charge 4 packs of 4.6 amps in parallel which is a total of 18.4 amps and i charge them at normally 5- 7 amps which i don't take to be a fast charge. If you was talking about a fast charge it would be 18 amps which would not be good practice for the long life of the cells.


    OK on sorted a charger there is so many on the market to choose from you get spoiled for choice. But it is nice if you won't to fast charge at the lake side so you can sail again that day plus alot of nimh can take a fair bit of abuse when you see alot of people charge there transmitters and use cheap wall chargers which have not got delta detect built in they put them on charge don't no how much charge is in the battery and leave it charging for 16 hours plus if they don't for get to unplug it i can not think there is much worse the abusing a battery than that but that is just my own view
          All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on August 05, 2016, 12:32:17 AM
John,
You are right (and Ned you are right too!). It does depend on capacity, like LiPo, the C rating is used. For fast charging 1C is as fast as you want to go. For better longer charge - C/10 is used. 
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: timgarrod on August 07, 2016, 09:40:26 PM
video of the sound effects on the gato https://youtu.be/QDETmcTej0k (https://youtu.be/QDETmcTej0k)
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on August 26, 2016, 06:57:38 PM
hi john.
at last cracked the stiff bow plane mech.
two 14 teeth timing pulley and one 185mm belt from mfa como drills.pulley bored out to 4mm do away with top plate with the four spacers,make bottom shaft to fit new pulley and coupling.
 !! bingo!!.spins very free no load on motor/gearbox.
alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on August 30, 2016, 08:46:50 PM
HI Alan
      Glad you got bow plane mech to work OK haven't took my Gato out for a few weeks have ripted a tendent in my back and i have never felt pain like it worst than having my heart bypass. Any way hope you are well won't to try to take the sub to bournville show as i said i would go don't know if you are going .
            All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on October 20, 2016, 07:55:14 PM
 :-))hi john.
had me head down got the gato wet,a few trim wrinkles,but on the right track.
cheers alan b
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 22, 2016, 06:59:19 PM
HI Alan
       Glad to see you have got the sub in the water,i always try to trim mine up in a test tank the one we made for my engel gato i have now smashed it up sorry to say it was just in the way so it had to go down the tip. Alan i didn't go to Bournville for the last 3 month's i have been struggling to walk around with pain in my back  so sorry to say i have not even took the sub out it has just sat there, it just seem that every time I'm going to go to a show some thing always goes wrong it does start to make you feel that way. I have even thought about selling it but because the misses brought it for me it would not be right to sell it.
                    All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on October 23, 2016, 08:13:53 AM
hi john.
my test tank came from argos (paddling pool) need this as my lake is a 40ml round trip. gato seems ok a few tweeks needed.
went to bournville with my type 7 darnell had a good day. well on with my typhoon build now,going to the gym so I can pick it up !.
hope this post finds your back in better shape?.two of my lads and my daughter have had back ops,not nice.
cheers alan b.
nb   of to blackpool show to-day sea air and all that.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 30, 2016, 07:10:24 PM
Hi Alan
            Know what you mean about traveling i have to go to Derby to there pool to be able to sail the Engel Gato. Fine on going to Bournville i really wonted to go but my back was not up to it not as bad as it was but still get pain so trying to leave picking the sub up. Hopefully we will meet up at a show next year, sorry to hear about your two sons and daughter having back ops i don't think there is nothing worse than back pain.
       All the best Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: abreese on November 07, 2016, 08:56:24 AM
hi john.
speed controller in gato just said had enough,dont think it was up to the job,trying a m-tronics sub 40,should do the trick?.
just made a clear top for typhoon,now to fit periscope assembly,like trying to put a watch together,need this done now to see how far it pokes inside to fit other gear.
hope the backs better?.
cheers.  stressed of macclesfield
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on November 20, 2016, 05:11:51 PM
HI Alan,
        Sorry to hear about speed controller going bang in the Engel Gato, this is why i like to make my own i know what is going into it. Fine on making the clear top for the typhoon, it's brough back memory's of the 3 hatches for my Engel Gato, you said about the periscopes assembly i have just took the periscope assembly and done a bit of reworking on it as i tried it the other day and it started to stick, so if in doubt rip it out is my motto. Trouble is you can spend so much time messing around with these model subs, i had another problem with the two drive motors for the prop shafts what happened was when Engel builds the gear box up all they do is put 2 screws through the ABS gray plate there is no washers on the screws or spring washers and there is no thread lock so the screws come undone because the motors get hot and the screws come undone ended up taking the back of the sub to bits and all the electronics out of the middle because i could not get the back tank forward enough to get the motors out what a job. So watch out for this on after what i have done they won't be coming out again.


        You asked about the back problem it is allot better now but not quite right keep getting the odd pain when i move in a funny way but at least i can do things now
                           All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Subculture on November 20, 2016, 05:20:17 PM
Get an FR40 from Mike Stothers. Very good controllers.

Also watch your lead lengths going back to the battery, often advisable to fit a low ESR cap or two close to the ESC if they're long.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on June 25, 2017, 08:28:24 PM
HI Guys                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Had a big problem with the engel gato today one of the bellows on the linkages for the rudder split and got around 1.5 pints of water in the bottom of the sub, it has blown a lot of electronics and i don't know if it will be worth repairing which is a sad end because it worked so well. I must say a big thanks to Tim for helping me get it out of the water what a pain in the back end and all for 60p rubber bellow. Has anybody else had problems with these splitting they don't seem to be as good as they was a few years ago                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             All the best Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on June 26, 2017, 05:24:16 PM
I had a similar issue on an Akula submarine. The original bellows began to crack and split. The new bellows were extra thin compared to the original Engel ones. However, I bought my replacements from eBay.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on November 26, 2017, 07:28:11 PM
HI Salmon                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Not had much interst in the sub over the last few months sorry with late  reply, but the good news is i have sorted out the water blowing some of the electronics in the Engel Gato but these rubber bellows do seem to be a pain in the back end. But at least it is all back together now and fully working once again, it is getting a bit cold now to go out and have your hands in cold water at least for me.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   I haven't even taken the big 12FT Gato out this year it is to much for me and the misses to do it on our own plus when you do take it out no body seems to leave you allown seems to take all the fun out of sailing it                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             All the best Sub John                                               
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: webbo on October 13, 2018, 02:48:08 PM
Can you tell me where you got the improved deck guns for the Engel Gato from.
Cheers Webbo
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: TomHugill on October 14, 2018, 10:50:53 AM
Mike mcguine aka big fat mike
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on October 14, 2018, 04:54:18 PM
HI Webbo                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Wonted to get in contact with the guy that made the guns to see if it was OK to pass his phone number on will send you a private message with phone number hope it helps                                                                                    Sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on May 06, 2019, 06:29:28 PM
HI Guys


       Bit of a up date on the Engel Gato, quite a bit ago i had a rubber below split on the linkage on the back of the sub ended up with quite a bit of water inside ended up having to take it apart to repair the electronics inside the sub got it all back together and thought job done, but no went to charge the batteries in the sub and it was only putting about 7amps in to cut a long story short some of the water had got into the packs in the bottom of the sub ended up taking it all apart again to replace battries, which came out at about 100 just because of some below splitting. Took the sub to Papplewick pumping station dive-in sub worked OK, but didn't find out till after the show that part of the depth control circuit was not working all because of taking the sub apart again.


      My new project is building a new sub with a new tank system, the way the ballest system will work is no pumps no compressed air no pressure to build up inside of main air compartment. And no moving parts apart from a couple of valves. Hopefully this sub will also have the sonic control link to work under water not normal radio control, it is also quite possible to make the sub with no propellers or any moving parts to make the sub go forward. But this propulsion system will only work in salt water the basic idea you seen in the film hunt for red October which was called silent drive and it can be done.
                   All the best John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on May 06, 2019, 06:37:36 PM
A caterpillar drive! Cool!

Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on May 06, 2019, 07:25:30 PM
HI Salmon
      Hope you are well, yes i suppose it is caterpillar drive. I meant to get back to you about board for piston tanks quite awhile ago but i for got sorry. Can you remember the big Bosc monitor i lost  about 2 years ago didn't say anything but Pauline brought my another baby but i didn't know how i would get on with him, as her was very nasty but he has gone the same as the other one very nice nature  he was about 7inc long when we got him but after 18 months he is now 4FT long and weights 12.3 lbs he is a big lad and still 2 years to grow. will have to send you a PM nice to hear from you


                    All the best sub John
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: salmon on May 06, 2019, 10:47:10 PM
I do remember and am happy that another is in your care!
Please PM me would enjoy it.
Peace,
Tom
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: Akira on August 09, 2019, 01:47:38 PM
A possible solution for bellows is to look at automotive bellows. They are used on brake ststems, throttles, ect. They are much more durable. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Engel Gato SS212
Post by: sub john on August 19, 2019, 09:29:27 PM
HI Akira                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             Yes i know what you mean about using automotive bellows, i used them as you said in the big 12ft Gato sub and they do work quite well. I am supprized nobody has made any bellows from silicone rubber, but allot of the smaller bellowsare not as good as they was a few years ago. I have not took the small Gato out for a few months now, i don't think i have took the big Gato out for 5 years now or so seems a bit of a shame as it just sits in the garage gathering dust, i ran it up a few months ago and it all works fine resin why i ran i up was i changed the coolant for the compressor                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         Thanks for reply all the best Sub John