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Dry Dock / Shipyard: Builds & Questions => Any Other Builds => Topic started by: radiojoe on October 03, 2015, 03:18:02 PM

Title: HMS Victory
Post by: radiojoe on October 03, 2015, 03:18:02 PM
A friend of mine recently offered me what he thought was an unfinished model of HMS Victory that a friend of his was building for some time before he sadly passed away, otherwise it was going to be binned, of course I couldn't let that happen so gladly accepted the offer, I picked it up a couple of days ago, it turned out to be a Corel 1:98 plank on frame, the hull was built and there was a large box of other stuff with it.
In the box was all the build sheets/plans a number of packets of wooden blocks/ rigging eyes etc. and couple of books on the Victory, tucked inside one of the books was a number of photos taken at various stages of the build, it turns out the model had indeed been fully built to a very high standard probably several years before the builder passed away and the model had been roughly stored in a shed and suffered a lot of damage as a result she had lost her three masts that I later found pieces of in the bottom of the box along with some broken yardarms and platforms etc. and was covered in a thick layer of dust and dirt, such a pity after the builders excellent work. I have spent some time cleaning her up and the hull is looking a lot better, I intend to keep her safely in my workshop and see if I can summon up the enthusiasm to rebuild her though this type of ship is not really my thing.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: joppyuk1 on October 03, 2015, 04:00:14 PM
According to todays newspaper, the original has bee repainted in pink stripes, not the regular yellow. Ostensibly properly researched scientifically and because Hardy couldn't afford bespoke paint, but had to make do with shipyard pigments. Having said that, "history is not what you know, it's what you remember", so the Victory will always be black and yellow.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: radiojoe on October 03, 2015, 04:15:51 PM
Yes your right there, it'll always be black and yellow/mustard to me,  the builder of this one never painted it whether he just never got around to it or preferred it varnished we'll never know. %%
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 03, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
She is a fine build and lots of hard work went into her.  I am sure some one would take it off your hands and refurbish her and set her up in a local museum recording the work this gentleman achieved.   
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Footski on October 03, 2015, 05:43:09 PM
It certainly has been built to a high standard, however the model simply does not and will not look real unless it is painted. I doubt a muumuu would be interested unless she is finished in an accurate way.....Sorry to be a misery, but I really do not appreciate period models that are built simply to show off the builders ability.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 03, 2015, 06:34:09 PM
Quote
but I really do not appreciate period models that are built simply to show off the builders ability.

I suppose it is a matter of opinion but period models do tend to be more often built unpainted to show off the construction which is one of the attractive aspects of this type of model. If you have put a huge effort into reproducing the intricate carpentry in miniature then it can be a shame to cover it up with paint. Models don't HAVE to be realistic, just in the same way that some people favour weathering and others don't. There are different ways of presenting models and  it is up to the builder which they prefer.

Personally, in an age when most model boat hulls seem to be either GRP or sheathed in GRP, I think it is nice to see beautifully constructed hulls on display. So many modellers these days reject the idea of making a hull and simply buy one in.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: essex2visuvesi on October 03, 2015, 06:41:24 PM
Suprisingly, the magazines from Deagostini's Build the Victory series discusses the virtues and drawbacks of both options in quite a bit of detail


When I get round to building mine (and the Black Pearl) the decision on which way to go will depend on how well the planking goes.  Painting hides filler much better lol
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: ballastanksian on October 03, 2015, 06:49:42 PM
I have no doubt Joe, that what ever you do, she will end up as a spiffing model. If you can use thinned paint then maybe you can preserve the timbered effect but also capture that look of the black and yellow stripes.

I look forward to see wat you do with her in the coming months.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 03, 2015, 07:25:35 PM
According to todays newspaper, the original has bee repainted in pink stripes, not the regular yellow. Ostensibly properly researched scientifically and because Hardy couldn't afford bespoke paint, but had to make do with shipyard pigments. Having said that, "history is not what you know, it's what you remember", so the Victory will always be black and yellow.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11908365/Restored-HMS-Victory-raises-eyebrows-with-new-pink-shade.html

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03461/HMS_Victory_Pink_1_3461722b.jpg)
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 03, 2015, 07:39:58 PM
I am due to meet some friends in the dockyard next week, it will be interesting to see the new colour scheme.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Footski on October 03, 2015, 07:43:06 PM
I am due to meet some friends in the dockyard next week, it will be interesting to see the new colour scheme.

Colin


I do hope she is dressed in the old colours Colin......
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: ballastanksian on October 03, 2015, 07:54:16 PM
Looks faded to me.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 03, 2015, 08:02:14 PM
I have photos of her in the old scheme, I will take some next week, weather permitting, and post a comparison.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Paul Swainson on October 04, 2015, 04:18:14 PM
Here are some I took a while ago
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: warspite on October 04, 2015, 04:51:56 PM
i prefer the black and ocre colour scheme as well, it appears to be like a bee, at the past she had a hell of a sting, is the pink for a charity event to celebrate something in the near future?
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: radiojoe on October 04, 2015, 06:16:15 PM
According to the NMRN. she is being painted in her original Battle of Trafalgar livery, I guess the historians know best, somehow I can't see a crew of rough seadogs going much on PINK,,, {-) ARR TIZ PINK ME LADS %% %% %)
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: warspite on October 04, 2015, 06:46:26 PM
clearly a colour blind historian
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: grendel on October 04, 2015, 08:42:05 PM
maybe they only had black and white paintings to work from, and someone has finally worked out the colour - or maybe they only had half of the tins of white primer and half in red primer and mixed the two like in the film operation petticoat.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 04, 2015, 08:50:54 PM
Apparently the historians have analysed the various paint layers on the ship to get a definitive colour match.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: derekwarner on October 04, 2015, 09:58:30 PM
A Pink & Black Victory!.... <*<...looks like the dingbats were using an Electropsychometer. instead of one of those ultrasonic generated laser guided computer optimised light refractioning colour matching devices we find in the paint section of the big hardware store  {-) .......................... Derek
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: joppyuk1 on October 05, 2015, 09:12:56 AM
Just a question. If someone modelled her in pink, and entered a competition, would they be penalised for 'un-authentic' finish?
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 05, 2015, 09:41:57 AM
Quote
Just a question. If someone modelled her in pink, and entered a competition, would they be penalised for 'un-authentic' finish?

No, why should it now that the correct colour has been established?

However, if somebody entered a Victory 'as at Trafalgar' with the yellow stripes you could argue that it would be incorrect!

Ship colours in those days tended to change quite a lot, after the Napoleonic wars it was common for the stripes to be white.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Martin [Admin] on October 05, 2015, 10:45:36 AM
 
I wonder if it was an early form 'camouflage'?
Weren't some WWII ship painted pink to blend in at sunset?
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: BarryM on October 05, 2015, 10:47:41 AM
Yes and I believe it was known as 'Mountbatten Pink'.

72 coats of paint over a couple of centuries? I've known women that could put that on in a morning!

Barry M
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 05, 2015, 10:55:59 AM
Quote
I wonder if it was an early form 'camouflage'?[/color]
Quote


Quite the opposite I think, helps ensure you didn't fire into the wrong ship!

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 07, 2015, 08:18:54 PM
Went down to Portsmouth today, weather grey and dull. The new paint on Victory is actually a sort of cream colour but under some lights I can see why it might assume a pinkish tint. It looked what it was supposed to be today, yellow ochre mixed with white. You can see the difference between the old and new colours in the photos below. I think I preferred the old colour even if it was not strictly historically accurate.

I also toured Monitor M33 which is now open to the public. A lot of money has been spent on her and she is now very much worth visiting. Although a 'simple' ship she is full of interesting detail and information and you can actually touch the aft 6 inch gun which was carried by HMS Canada at the Battle of Jutland - a real historical connection there!

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: radiojoe on October 07, 2015, 09:28:13 PM
Good photos Colin, I saw Victory when I was in the dockyard in July and I actually I think it doesn't look as bad as people seem to think, when you really think about it she's in remarkable condition for a 250 year old wooden ship, I worked at Camper & Nicholson's until they closed down and we did a lot of work on her, including renewing the main deck calling, renewing all the cannon ramrod's and the racks in the powder room also all the dummy powder charges on them, they are all filled with fine plastic pellets, very much enjoyed working on her. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 07, 2015, 10:05:35 PM
Must have been very interesting to work on her given all the historical associations. The photo below was taken when she was last fully rigged.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Unsinkable 2 on October 08, 2015, 07:44:19 AM
IT WAS GOING TO BE BINNED?........ Some people have all the luck, glad you saved her Joe can't wait to see what you do...... Good luck. U2
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: ballastanksian on October 08, 2015, 02:31:36 PM
Sadly, it is a common occurance especially when house clearing the effects of the deceased. I used to share premises with a House clearance company, and they burnt loads of cool stuff just because the relatives/authority people had neither the time, or often the inclination to go through it properly and take the less obviously valuable items. We think 'Is it valuable?' first followed by 'Do we need a.........?' and then its, 'crikey that a lot of old tat. we need to get rid quickly'

I had an argument with my dad over a very useful piece of kitchen furniture that had an aluminium top (we were learing out my gran's house and we had a fortnight to do it). I could see a use for it  and I still bloody can, and he was for burning it. Lets just say, it fretilised the garden nicely >>:-( >>:-( .

Mind you, much of her bedroom furniture was eaten alive by woodworm, so his argument was not unsound.

Anyway, back to the Victory. Hows it going Joe?
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Nemo on October 08, 2015, 08:39:56 PM
Reminds me of that film Operation Petticoat! Where they only had red and white paint enough to paint the sub so they mixed it!



Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Nemo on October 08, 2015, 08:48:27 PM
Good photos Colin, I saw Victory when I was in the dockyard in July and I actually I think it doesn't look as bad as people seem to think, when you really think about it she's in remarkable condition for a 250 year old wooden ship, I worked at Camper & Nicholson's until they closed down and we did a lot of work on her, including renewing the main deck calling, renewing all the cannon ramrod's and the racks in the powder room also all the dummy powder charges on them, they are all filled with fine plastic pellets, very much enjoyed working on her. :-))

I read somewhere Joe, that almost all of Victory has been replaced over the years so there is little of the actual original ship left. I also heard a report that her masts have steel rods inserted to keep them  from collapsing. Little matter though as she is still a ship worth visiting and enjoying. :-))
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 08, 2015, 09:48:01 PM
Yes, I think that the only remaining original structure is around the Orlop deck area where Nelson died. In a way it is encouraging that everything can be replaced piecemeal whilst still effectively preserving the whole. Very much like the human body in fact.

Colin
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Bob K on October 08, 2015, 09:53:31 PM
The masts were replaced with wood-clad steel replicas a long time ago.  Currently the bases of the masts are being examined with a view to replacing them with something lighter like carbon fibre as the weight is causing problems.  Less than 10% of the structure is stated to be original, probably much less.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: derekwarner on October 09, 2015, 01:44:47 AM
 ;)...replacing the masts?.....in reality, UK nor Europe has Oak trees tall enough to be used as replacements [of the original design....and not fabricated from 246 individual pieces as was proposed] ....

 %)...also read that there is insufficient Oak timber in the UK or Europe to build a replacement full sized Victory of the original design

 :D...apart from that, we don't have the skills to build a replacement ship using the traditional tools used in the original build...

Such is the price of human intervention in our world  <*< .... Derek
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: Bob K on October 09, 2015, 08:05:47 AM
Traditionally the lifespan of an ocean going wooden ship was only 20 to 30 years, although some reached 40 years in service.  In practice quite a few refits were required during this time considering they were built mainly of biodegradable materials and had rough usage.  Rigging and spars required a lot of maintenance in service, plus keeping plank joints sealed.  Shipworm and various types of rot took a heavy toll.

Amazing to think that HMS Victory was still afloat until the 1920's, considering our climate.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: JimG on October 09, 2015, 10:55:33 AM
;)...replacing the masts?.....in reality, UK nor Europe has Oak trees tall enough to be used as replacements [of the original design....and not fabricated from 246 individual pieces as was proposed] ....

Not a problem as oak was never used for masts as it does not grow tall and straight enough. Masts would be spruce or pine. The masts of first raters would be built and not one piece as even then it was very difficult to obtain trunks large enough.
Quote
%)...also read that there is insufficient Oak timber in the UK or Europe to build a replacement full sized Victory of the original design
It probably would be difficult to find enough old growth oak timber of large enough sizes but it definitely would be impossible to find the  bent wood for the knees.
Quote
:D...apart from that, we don't have the skills to build a replacement ship using the traditional tools used in the original build...

Such is the price of human intervention in our world  <*< .... Derek

The skills are still out there, you just need to look at Holland. They built the Batavia replica in the late 1990s and are now building a replica 80 gun ship of the line, De Zeven ProvinciŽn, using traditional tools and methods.

Jim
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: JimG on October 09, 2015, 11:01:49 AM
Traditionally the lifespan of an ocean going wooden ship was only 20 to 30 years, although some reached 40 years in service.  In practice quite a few refits were required during this time considering they were built mainly of biodegradable materials and had rough usage.  Rigging and spars required a lot of maintenance in service, plus keeping plank joints sealed.  Shipworm and various types of rot took a heavy toll.

Amazing to think that HMS Victory was still afloat until the 1920's, considering our climate.

Few realise that at that time a major refit would often consist of totally dismantling the ship, replacing most of the wood and rebuilding what was basically a new ship with the old name. This way they could get around the King or Parliament refusing to allow them to build new ships. This explains the long life of many major warships of the time.

Jim
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: radiojoe on October 09, 2015, 11:21:22 AM
Sadly, it is a common occurance especially when house clearing the effects of the deceased. I used to share premises with a House clearance company, and they burnt loads of cool stuff just because the relatives/authority people had neither the time, or often the inclination to go through it properly and take the less obviously valuable items. We think 'Is it valuable?' first followed by 'Do we need a.........?' and then its, 'crikey that a lot of old tat. we need to get rid quickly'

I had an argument with my dad over a very useful piece of kitchen furniture that had an aluminium top (we were learing out my gran's house and we had a fortnight to do it). I could see a use for it  and I still 'blinking!' can, and he was for burning it. Lets just say, it fretilised the garden nicely >>:-( >>:-( .

Mind you, much of her bedroom furniture was eaten alive by woodworm, so his argument was not unsound.

Anyway, back to the Victory. Hows it going Joe?

Hi Ian,  Not done much except to clean it, she was in a filthy state, whether I'll get around to refinishing her myself is debatable, I think we would all agree to build a complex model you have to have a real interest in the subject, and the determination to build it to the best of your ability, whilst I can appreciate the appeal of these early vessels I don't think I could summon up the passion needed to rebuild the very complex rigging, so for now she is on a shelf out of harms way while I build my Hunt Class, here's a couple photo's I scanned that were tucked in side one of the books that came with her, they show the skill of the late builder. :-))

Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: grendel on October 09, 2015, 12:49:36 PM
My Uncle Built a Victory Model, at nearly 6 foot high, wide and long it was huge - it took him nearly a year just on the rigging, eventually he donated it to the local museum.
Grendel
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: ballastanksian on October 09, 2015, 07:59:52 PM
That is amazing work Joe. I take my hat off to those who can create such intricate rigging.

I had a quick look at the Hunt class yesterday in bed and there were quite a few of them in different batches. Interesting ships.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: essex2visuvesi on October 10, 2015, 01:06:45 AM
With the attention to detail and the excellent craftsmanship I can see why he chose to user varnish over paint.
I can see why you are uncertain about restoring it, that rigging is a work of art and like you say yourself its not your thing. It would be a shame crime to balls it up
Maybe there's someone local to you who has the skills to take on that kind of restoration
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: radiojoe on October 10, 2015, 06:18:58 PM
Yes that level of detail takes skill and the passion to want to do it, I just don't have that passion for this type of vessel, sadder still is all the smashed and broken masts and yardarm's in the bottom of the box, not all there but enough to see the work he put in the rigging, if I come across someone is really into this type of vessel and would like to take it on then OK, my main reason of accepting it was not so much to rebuild it but to save a great piece of work from being totally destroyed by people who don't know what they are looking at, if there was such a person they could have it for say a donation to the RNLI, I personally don't know anyone who's into square riggers.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: warspite on October 18, 2015, 05:19:57 PM
The 'pink' paint - it just came to me - when I was a lad and living in a council house, the chippies replaced a couple of rotted windows, when the frames turned up they were painted pink, I assume an primer undercoat, is that what they did, paint the ocre bits in a primer paint that was pink before the final top coat !!!!!

How do you clean the dust of one of these anyway, in fact any model boat?
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: essex2visuvesi on October 18, 2015, 05:39:14 PM

How do you clean the dust of one of these anyway, in fact any model boat?


An airbrush (With no paint or solvent in it) is quite effective
Also the usb keyboard vacuums
(http://g02.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Ddt_IXXXXXbFXXXXq6xXFXXXw/Wholesale-10PCs-Lot-x-Black-Mini-Turbo-USB-font-b-Hoover-b-font-Vacuum-Cleaner-for.jpg)


When looking for a stock image I found this:-
(http://pe.samondeo.com/images1/hoover-10.jpg)
Have just ordered one  :embarrassed:
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: radiojoe on October 18, 2015, 05:51:03 PM
To initially clean the Victory model I used my caravan vac,  small but powerful, one end has a flap with sponge filter under this is a connection for the hose to blow this was used with a soft bristle brush, with the boat on the garden table, there sure was a lot of dust clouds. %%
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: warspite on October 19, 2015, 05:18:56 PM

Radiojoe put
When looking for a stock image I found this:-
(http://pe.samondeo.com/images1/hoover-10.jpg)
Have just ordered one  :embarrassed:


I'd be embarrassed at buying one of the henry's - what with the cost etc, my boss just bought for work two SHOPVACs from B & Q, £89.00 each, bigger powerful and have a little function that allows you to plug a tool into the front 3 pin socket, when switched to the 2nd setting and connected to the tool (say a sander with a hoover connection), when you switch the tool on the vac starts up and switches off when you stop the tool, large capacity holding tank and can do fine and almost talc dust with the filter, nice piece of kit and inexpensive compared to henry's.
Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: ballastanksian on October 20, 2015, 08:07:33 PM
That is a clever idea. My friend who built and outfitted a workshop last decade used Wickes vacuums and used these as extractors but this function would have added efficiency to his dust extraction.

Title: Re: HMS Victory
Post by: essex2visuvesi on October 20, 2015, 10:49:30 PM
Radiojoe put
When looking for a stock image I found this:-
(http://pe.samondeo.com/images1/hoover-10.jpg)
Have just ordered one  :embarrassed:


I'd be embarrassed at buying one of the henry's - what with the cost etc, my boss just bought for work two SHOPVACs from B & Q, £89.00 each, bigger powerful and have a little function that allows you to plug a tool into the front 3 pin socket, when switched to the 2nd setting and connected to the tool (say a sander with a hoover connection), when you switch the tool on the vac starts up and switches off when you stop the tool, large capacity holding tank and can do fine and almost talc dust with the filter, nice piece of kit and inexpensive compared to henry's.


The one above is desktop vacuum cleaner
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HENRY-THE-HOOVER-DESK-VACUUM-CLEANER-COMPUTER-KEYBOARD-LAPTOP-TIDY-TOY-PP2500HH/331683621840?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3D329bb0b5c0254afd927e77948bbe9e69%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D331672034036