Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Colin Bishop on November 23, 2015, 04:46:51 pm

Title: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 23, 2015, 04:46:51 pm
Looks like the Government is once again making the classic mistake when it comes to replacing the type 23 frigates.

Money is to be 'saved' by constructing just 8 of the proposed type 26 ships and making up the numbers with a cheaper design, the type 26 'lite'.

If these latter ships do get built, what is the betting that:

The design becomes hopelessly compromised by either trying to do too much with too little or simply settling for 2nd rate units.
The ships will have a short service life because they may not be built to full military specification and/or unable to accommodate future weapons and equipment upgrades.
The extra cost in designing and building something new and different will be greater than simply extending the type 26 production run and bringing unit costs down.
There will be a huge delay in building the ships due to arguments as to what capability should be included on limited displacement.
Somebody will have the bright idea of having the basic hulls built in South Korea and fitted out in the UK.

One of the biggest consistent mistakes we have made in the past is to build down to a price without looking at the whole life consequences. Typical examples being the Mk 1 type 45s and the Invincible class, both 'quart in a pint pot' ships.

Colin
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Shipmate60 on November 23, 2015, 06:12:02 pm
To save money the MoD were considering not engineering ships to Naval Engineering Standards (NES) but to civilian Lloyds Register.
In fact Warships are now inspected to a Warship Lloyds Clasification.
HMS Ocean was built for Diesel Propulsion and was a merchant style Invincible Class.
Auxiliaries USED to be built to NES and as such would last well over 30 yrs.


Bob
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Netleyned on November 23, 2015, 06:15:11 pm
Remember the old Type 14's.
Stopgap frigates that went on and on and on.
Cheap stopgap but still built to NES.


Ned
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Z750Jay on November 23, 2015, 06:25:36 pm
A few years ago at a 'Way Ahead' chat in Portsmouth Navy Base they proposed something similar. There would be X amont of Surface fleet combatants in a traditional warship role and several lite versions for disaster relief and general patrolling.
We have another company and navy chat in the ship hall on Thursday
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 23, 2015, 06:49:51 pm
'A few years ago at a 'Way Ahead' chat in Portsmouth Navy Base they proposed something similar.'

There is a difference in planning ahead for ships to undertake that role and last minute cost cutting which is what appears to be happening here where the 'lite' ships are being suggested in place of the original 'full' versions, the proposed numbers of which I believe may already have been cut down to 13.

Colin
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Brian60 on November 23, 2015, 07:10:21 pm
Is there any reason they couldn't buy new old ships from the U.S? They always seem to have plenty to get rid of, and if we had them and saved a few million on each one, even if they only lasted 10-15 years. Its got to be worth exploring.

I'd rather us save the cash and use somebody els'es technology than be able to say yeah we invented all this new tech but paid through the nose for it in cost overuns etc etc.
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Z750Jay on November 23, 2015, 07:38:46 pm
The US stuff is pants!

Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: derekwarner on November 23, 2015, 08:07:14 pm
Totally away from above water naval vessels, but our OZ Government is back-dooring a preferred Japanese built conventional submarine fleet to be fitted with systems [in Australia] capable of talking with US & British [& NATO] counterparts

These the are to replace the aging Collins Class, which replaced the even older Oberon Class.......[I do remember supervising the removal of an OMC hydraulic control module on an O boat...so how old does that make me?  :o.........]

One possibility here is.......if Politicians think they can command a Country, why not send them on a 3 month Naval Commando training course....with only those graduating  <*< being allowed to go back to their civvy street Government jobs.....

You can just imagine it....engine room [MTP] sailors in a few years polishing the Mitsubishi star symbol or the Toyota hoola hoop symbol on the rocker covers of the V16 diesels {-)........or worse still...would the Japanese sub let the engines to the Koreans only to have them build IHI Sulzers or the Chinese to build Wartsillas or MTU-Duetz.....all under Licence of course O0......Derek
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Starspider on November 23, 2015, 11:57:10 pm
To free up more money for surface assets could we not pass on replacing Polaris   <*<  Build a couple of the more useful hunter/killer type cans
I'll get my coat.
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on November 24, 2015, 05:46:49 pm
The Type 23s are already two sub classes, with the high end Anti-Submarine variant with the towed array, and the lower end, more general purpose variant. so all they are doing is replacing thirteen frigates with thirteen frigates, no big news, or even new news there. however the 'up to' and 'possibly more than' numbers given to the so called 'Lite' frigate give the usual causes for concern.
I believe that back in the day, the towed array option was going to be installed in the entire class. this proved too expensive and was reduced to, I believe, just eight of the class. this is now policy based on some sound military planning...which was based on cost cutting over fifteen years ago. Cost cutting measures then become hard and fast military strategy now? Thank god that we are in the hands of experts, not bean counters and headline seekers....

 :P
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Netleyned on November 24, 2015, 06:00:15 pm
More remote control drones for the RAF,
Remote warships could be controlled from
the Still and West by a few old Steering Competition
winners paid with Pork Pies and Cider %% %%
I will volunteer as and when :-))


Ned
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Z750Jay on November 24, 2015, 06:18:17 pm
They stripped most of the towed array from the 23's. There are only 4 or 5 with the new one, not to save costs but the new one is not good for wildlife!
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: kinmel on November 24, 2015, 08:05:01 pm
HMS Ocean completed a £65million refit last year and it has been quietly announced this afternoon that it will be decommissioned in 2018.

Strangely, Cameron forgot to mention that yesterday, when the ship was listed amongst the "strengths" of the Royal navy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-34909649
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 24, 2015, 09:12:48 pm
So Ocean is to be scrapped after just 20 year's service? Not such a good bargain then...

Colin
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: kinmel on November 24, 2015, 09:50:32 pm
and no mention that HMS Bulwark will be brought out of "extended readiness" to replace her.
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Klunk on November 25, 2015, 05:12:36 am
Not having heard any news.....was there anything about replacing our non existent maritime patrol aircraft. ....or do we still have to rely on the french and norwegeons
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: BarryM on November 25, 2015, 08:39:06 am
Maritime patrol aircraft are to be bought from the US to operate out of Lossiemouth but will not be in service before 2020, assuming they are not cancelled in the interim.

Thus the answer is 'yes', we will still have to go cap in hand to the Norwegians, French, Canadians etc.

BM
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: deadbeat on November 25, 2015, 12:45:31 pm
It seems HMS Ocean is being sacrificed so we can man the Queen Elizabeth!
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Starspider on November 25, 2015, 02:30:41 pm
It would appear our politicians could not organise one of them in a brewery  >>:-(
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Netleyned on November 25, 2015, 03:20:47 pm
It seems HMS Ocean is being sacrificed so we can man the Queen Elizabeth!


Man/Woman the QE  >>:-( >>:-(


Ned
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on November 25, 2015, 03:39:49 pm
Maybe we could use the phrase ' to huMAN the QE..'

That does discriminate apes etc.....so no RM :D
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Netleyned on November 25, 2015, 03:45:36 pm
No Deckapes {-) {-)


Ned
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Netleyned on November 25, 2015, 03:50:29 pm
Female Stokers seeking the Golden Rivet  %% %%


Ned
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: gingyer on November 25, 2015, 04:53:02 pm
HMS ocean I was told reliably had the end in sight along time ago.
It wasn't built to naval standards and to be blunt it wasn't built to any electrical standards
As I knew and had sacked a good number of the electricians working in her being built.

The reason she was kept at the last SDR was very simple her flight deck lift...
It was bigger than the illustrious or ark Royal so could handle the Apache helicopters,
Which the others could not, if they could then ocean would of been long gone.

2018 will see the Queen Elizabeth commissioned about a year (albeit) not fully operational
But able to take over.
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Netleyned on November 25, 2015, 05:28:39 pm

2018 will see the Queen Elizabeth commissioned about a year (albeit) not fully operational
But able to take over.


As a helo pad and immigrant ferry >>:-(


Ned
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Paul Swainson on November 25, 2015, 06:05:21 pm
Please note that the type 26 had a sister designed being worked on the type 27, which with the review in 2010 was amalgamated to the type 26.   Well all they have to do is reconstituted this designed and build it for the role it was meant for General duties and protection of cost and internal duties.  If its good then it could be sold to other Navy's and then maybe we get some building work with jobs and money to build more ships of design best suited to what we need and in smaller quantity.   Big and lots of is not always best.
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: BarryM on November 25, 2015, 10:52:42 pm
HMS ocean I was told reliably had the end in sight along time ago.
It wasn't built to naval standards and to be blunt it wasn't built to any electrical standards
As I knew and had sacked a good number of the electricians working in her being built.

The reason she was kept at the last SDR was very simple her flight deck lift...
It was bigger than the illustrious or ark Royal so could handle the Apache helicopters,
Which the others could not, if they could then ocean would of been long gone.

2018 will see the Queen Elizabeth commissioned about a year (albeit) not fully operational
But able to take over.

I'm unsure just what she will be taking over. Unfortunately, the two carriers will have to share only about 24 VTO fighters with a range of about 450 miles arriving in 2020. Superior fixed-wing aircraft are out because of the lack of catapults.  'Strike' Carriers which, with top cover up, can only launch a token, local force.

As for the maritime patrols, when Kinross became an Army base and the Nimrods were scrapped, so were the specialist base facilities. These will have to be rebuilt from scratch at Lossie. I haven't heard any cost for that.

Should we be checking the inventory of the Imperial War Museum for a spare Swordfish or two?
BM
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: dodes on November 26, 2015, 09:00:50 pm
Trouble with the RN/MoD is that the Politicians have for a number of years have been cutting the budget and assist stripping. The Naval Bases Ex Dockyards no longer have the expertise/resources to rebuild warships with updated equipment (possible civvy shipyards have also long gone down the swanny), so as the modern boats start to show their age in tech etc, there is no where to up grade them. To save money on personnel the older trained staff where encouraged to take redundancy, so now there is real shortages in certain trades ( old artificers I hear are being =offered £50,000 to re-enlist ). But then we do not build ships much, in fact it is virtually extinct in the UK, we do not make steel now or have any heavy industry , except for service centres, clothes shops and investment banks. Am 65 now and boy has this country changed.
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: dodes on November 27, 2015, 08:35:00 pm
Just had a thought the type 23's when in design stage were supposed to be cheap throw away boats of 1900tons displacement, but between design board and actual build they grew in substantial size and capability, though in reduced numbers from the envisaged 18 in number. Off course their designated mothership the Fort George and Victoria where not adjusted at build to deal with the larger craft and with their poor structural designed where scrapped early.
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: Liverbudgie2 on November 28, 2015, 01:30:10 am
Fort Victoria is still commission and is currently "East of Suez".

LB
Title: Re: Type 26 Lite Frigates
Post by: rnli12 on November 28, 2015, 08:53:16 am
Hi,
 
The Type 26 I believed to be littorial combat platforms and from what i have seen of the design are very compact and highly capable. Working on the Type 23's although aged and tired are still highly capable and undergoing significant capability upgrades to last another 10 years.
I wouldnt like to get into a brawl with one on a dark night at sea!
 {-)