Model Boat Mayhem
Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Radio Equipment => Topic started by: Martin (Admin) on July 30, 2007, 03:08:15 pm
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The JJC sound units are the best I've heard but people are saying they are a bit hard to get hold of at the moment....
So what tried alternatives are there?
(You must have at least seen/heard then in real life, not just on a web site.)
(Give them marks out of 10 for cost, loudness, realism, ease of installation, use, instruction, etc.)
But can we come up with our own ideas for a SIMPLE, self build & realistic model boat sound system.
Mayhem SMBSS (The Mayhem Simple Model Boat Sound System!)
Specification:
Simple
Loud,
Realistic
"Cheap"
One channel operation (maybe two 'Y' linked from motor & rudder)
....what can we come up with?
(Bluebird - not sure if this the correct board for this topic ... if not, tell me where I should stick it! - Martin)
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There has to be a programmable chip.. the JJC are in a chip socket, so the amplifier board is the same for each engine sound. They just plug in the chip for the sound set you order.
Also, preferablly something that loops. I have a 12-15 second desiel sound bite that just needs to repeat itself over and over. I don't want to play for a few minutes, then restart it. ;)
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What about http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/ ?
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I know that maplin do a sound system (steam ,toot toot ,whistle something like that) and that works of a chip ,is there anyone on the forum that can program the eprom chips with a diesel sound .
daz
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Anyone remember the old Commodore 64 and Oric Atmos computers? Each boasted a 3-voice sound synth chip. They were great for making neat effects since they both employed Attack/Decay/Sustain/Release - ADSR. They were, though, quirky to program, took up too much real estate on the circuit board, and not ideally suited for real-time sound modules.
But a quick browse over at Maplin shows a 2-minute re-recordable sound chip (around £15.00 each). Just a few extra bog-standard components are all that's needed to make a complete and working module. (Emphasis on KISS).
It'll make a great little project for folk who like to melt solder, but even a fully-built and tested unit, for those who don't, would still mean a simple and affordable unit.
Stuffing your chosen sound effect up the chip couldn't be easier; either an on-board microphone can be used, or a connection to a seperate audio source, such as your PC soundcard or one of those el cheapo MP3 players, etc.
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this is what you need one of these sort of things and a little amp
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/30a63.htm
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3146.htm
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JOB-LOT-OF-47-NEW-GIFT-WRAPPED-DIGITAL-MEMO-RECORDERS_W0QQitemZ160142051990QQihZ006QQcategoryZ51004QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting
Amp
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3105.htm
fred
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Just been looking at the Quaser sound recorder modules.
Be aware that the 30A63 although has a loop facility it has a 1 sec pause between loops so wouldnt be much good for engine simulators but ideal for hooters etc with a short duration. The 3146 project has a longer loop and no pauses between loops so this would be ok engine simulators.
I remember some years ago, a project appeared in one of the model boat mags which was an engine sound generator. Think it had 4 separte stages using separate chips which could all be individually set depending on many cylinders you wanted to reproduce. Also there was a light sentitive resistor which was used to control the simulator speed and tone. A light bulb was connected across one of the models motors which lit when power applied to the motor/s. This was detected by the LDR which gave idle / running tones.
I'll have a look for the article.
Terry.
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A simple way to activate it is to put a relay across the motor so when it runs so will the sound
Fred
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The aforementioned article for the diesel sound effects was published in Marine Modelling Feb 1992. It uses 4 x 555 timer chips. Separate amp required. Could be built on veroboard but a pcb overlay is included. The parts placement diagram is missing but was published in a later edition of the mag. (Date not known).
Terry.
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I've being trying to keep away from this thread as folk would say I have a vested interest in it. However, now the topic has drifted away from sound REPRODUCTION units (like JJC's) to sound SIMULATORS I feel have to point out that the ACTion diesel sounds are actually generated in much the same way as Faraday's Cage describes. There doesn't seem to be much point in chasing this topic down that route unless you just like spending time researching and fiddling about. CDSC123 has posted the website details - thanks, mate! Mayhem members are also eligible to a 5% discount on the posted price. That'd make the P15 unit a paltry £26.50, ready-built and tested, complete with a 4" speaker and delivered to your door. What else do I have to do, huh?
The original subject was about sound REPRODUCTION units. As PMK has described, these store a digital recording of the actual sound, rather than use a series of components to generate something that sounds a bit like it. I have turned customers away because they have larger models which our unit really wouldn't do justice to (e.g. 1/12 lifeboats); there's no doubt that the real engine sound is better in this size of model. PMK rightly says that it's a doddle to store and reproduce these FX from a voice chip; the trick would be in getting the sound to rise and fall in pitch as the speed of the motor increases. I don't know if Jim's unit does this - maybe someone would enlighten me.
Now if some genius can come up with a sure-fire way of modulating a recorded deisel sound loop by way of a splitter from the ESC or motor then I'd be very interested...............
FLJ 8)
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PMK rightly says that it's a doddle to store and reproduce these FX from a voice chip; the trick would be in getting the sound to rise and fall in pitch as the speed of the motor increases. I don't know if Jim's unit does this - maybe someone would enlighten me.
FLJ 8)
Consider yourself enlightened FLJ the sound alters with the speed and also ticks over.
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Hi all, I seem to recall one of our club members, many years ago, attached a small arm (stick, rod, whatever) to the prop shaft and it struck against a simple sound box. There was quite a lot of noise.
The system could be geared down a bit as electric motors tend to have high revs.
Not fantastic but low tech and it had its merits then especially as there was nothing else at the time!
regards to all Roy
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sounds like the old ,stick in the bike wheel thing we used to do as kids make your push-bike sound like a motorbike .
As for the current sound modules available the ones i have herd are recorded from the engine room of vessels ,and thats ok if you want your speaker in the bowels of your ship but what about a sound module with a bit of grunt and growl now that would make me look :o
daz
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...the trick would be in getting the sound to rise and fall in pitch as the speed of the motor increases.
Mister Jacket is absolutely right, of course. Sound simulators make it an easy task to alter the pitch of the sound via user-input at the transmitter. Sound reproduction, on the other hand, is a totally different kettle of fish. Stuffing the wanted sound up the voice chip is the easy part. But making it that it changes pitch with input from the Tx is a tad more involved. (Don't forget, we're talking real-time recorded sound here - not simulated sound).
In this case, the aforementioned voice chip (the one I spotted over at Maplin) appears to cater for such a feature. From what I can glean, it seems you only need apply the Tx pulse in order to adjust that pitch. In other words, it transposes the original engine sound higher or lower by a handful of kHz. Much like playing a song in the scale of, say, A major, then transposing it to, say, F major, and all the while maintaining the original sound quality.
The chips in those cheapo 'voice changer' toys are based on the same principle.
I'm turned-on by every idea suggested thus far - even those who suggested taking the mechanical route. It's all good, clean, healthy fun. But Admin's criteria of simplicity (and affordability) is an interesting challenge.
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A light bulb was connected across one of the models motors which lit when power applied to the motor/s. This was detected by the LDR which gave idle / running tones.
Hey, Terry.
Aw, yeah... the old bulb/LDR combo.
Lovely stuff!
Maplin has one of their outlets over Bournemouth way (Westbourne Models territory). If ever you're there, ask the kid in the store for an ORP12.
You'll laugh your t**s off when you see what he brings you.
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Morning PMK,
I laughed my t**s off reading your post! :D I'd love to know what you were presented with at Maplins.
Yeah, the good old ORP12 is no longer availble but there are still a few about on Ebay.
Terry.
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I'm not shore but I thought the challenge was for "The Mayhem Simple Model Boat Sound System" so thats not just engine sounds. for the likes of pings "subs" and guns etc you can use your favorite film sound ,just put one of the recording units by the speaker of telly and press record, I have a few of the sound chips from maplins and one or two sold for boats and you have to be told what it is in some cases, especially the alarm sound .the only unit that has impressed me is the one from jjc for engine sound.
Fred
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Thinking about this, and how to get proportional sound. I'm not sure that changing the pitch with speed will give ther most genuine sound effect in all cases. With trubines it will as the noise is the whinew of the blades which will depend on the speed of rotation.
For steam engines though, the basis pitch doesn't seem to change much - for those you would need a mix of hiss for the escaping steam and a soundof a single "puff" which is restarted at shorter and shorter intervals.
For a combustion engine, I guess it is a combination of both effects, though you might just get away with just a loop of a single combustion which is looped through at a constant sped but at shorter and shorter intervals.
Having heard a few boats with engine sounds, I have to say that I am rapdily coming round to the advantages of silence - though I have the same feelings about motors with gearboxes - when you can hear the whine of somebody's gearbox 50 to 100 yards away......
Wom
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Now you come to mention it, I think you got a point. I guess trying to emulate the sound of, say, turbines is easier said than done. I had my head in the clouds thinking it would be just a matter of anyone being able to download, or pre-record, their favourite engine sounds and then record them over to the chip.
Making the sound shift up or down in frequency in conjunction with speed increase is the easy bit. But now that you come to mention turbine sounds and stuff... yeah, I see your point.
In all honesty, I can't say I've had much experience with sound units, so I'm not really qualified to make comments either way. Whining gearboxes and sound sytems never really took off around here, which (apart from the whiney g-box din) is a shame. My fairacre sounds brilliant when blasting out Rule Brittania, but that's purely for when you're in fun mode. Playing pre-recorded songs on a fun boat is one thing, but playing true-life scenarios turns out to be more intriguing than first thought.
I'm wondering, for instance, how you could emulate the hiss of the steam engine. In my ignorance I'm not sure how model steam ones sound. Does the hiss get louder as it gets faster? So could that perhaps be manipulated by a bit of AMPLITUDE control? But what about the 'puff' sound, needed at shorter and shorter intervals?....
Blimey, yeah, I see your point.
Martin, if you're reading, how about making a teeny-weeny change to the initial SMBSS criteria? How about billing at is The Ever So Simple And Customisable Re-Recordable Sound Unit Which Is Great For Some Applications But A Bit Of A "xxxxx" For Others....
THSSACRSUWIGFSABABOABFO, for short.
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OK smart a_se, you win that round. ;)
I was actually thinking of a cheapo MP3 player with a simple amplifier that could be turned on/off via radio noty necassarily linked to speed control. JJC are the best I've seen/heard and as FLJ rightly points out I had in mind Sound reproduction not simulation.
Sound units currently available (that I know about) are:
http://www.jjc-electronics.com/ - (sound repduction)
www.action-electronics.co.uk - (sound simulators)
www.huntersystems.co.uk - (Diesel Sound Simulator Type 1 & 2)
www.maplin.co.uk - (Steam Engine Generator with Whistle kit)
www.robbe.de - (sound mdules repduction or simulated?)
www.graupner.de - (sound mdules repduction or simulated?)
www.modelsolutions.ca - Sound Effects Systems
www.tamiya.com/ - (sound systems for tanks & trucks)
www.soundtraxx.com/ - (sound units for trains)
www.howesmodels.co.uk - ( ESU Sound Decoders for trains)
http://www.loksound.com/ - (sound units for trains)
http://www.ramrcandramtrack.com/ - (fog horn)
http://www.aerosoundrc.com/ - (sound units for RC aircraft)
http://www.westbourne-models.com - (retailer)
http://www.harbormodels.com/site08/main_pages/soundmodules.htm - (retailer)
EA ELECTRONICS Sound Platform - (unable to find a website)
http://www.quasarelectronics.com/30a63.htm - (voice/sound record and playback & amplifiers)
Know of any others?......
Martin.
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Somebody mentioned using a sound chip.
Maplin have two, one with generic hooters, and an interesting one on
http://www.maplin.co.uk/module.aspx?ITAG=SPEC&ModuleNo=19915&doy=10m8#spec
which is programable and costs about £13.50 with a run time of 60 sec which can be chopped down to smaller segments with additional components. They also do a couple of pre-built amplifiers that run on 6-16 volts.
I used an earlier version for a warship hooter, its still going strong six years on. There should be room for hooters, pings, gunfire etc.
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has anyone had a hunter sound system
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Just had cause to look on maplins site. Typically for maplin and something potentially useful, the sound recording chips are no longer listed.
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this may also help
the first one you can record onto it :-))
Single Message Record/Playback Kit http://www.maplin.co.uk/single-message-record-playback-kit-265464 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/single-message-record-playback-kit-265464)
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Steam Engine Generator with Whistle http://www.maplin.co.uk/steam-engine-generatorwith-whistle-31695 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/steam-engine-generatorwith-whistle-31695)
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MK113 Siren Sound Generator .
.Generates 4 different sounds: police siren, fire brigade, emergency vehicle and machine gun.
RV1 adjusts sound pitch.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/mk113-siren-soundgenerator-25238 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/mk113-siren-soundgenerator-25238)
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for playing back from an mp3 player I use a small speaker system that I picked up at asda for a few quid, it looks like a kettle drum, is usb charged with a 4 1/2 hour battery life, and plugs in using a standard 2.5mm phono jack plug - brand name is genius - this one http://www.amazon.co.uk/Powered-speaker-Genius-SP-I165-Black/dp/B007F92L92 , but cheaper than the price shown on amazon, the sound reproduction is good with good bass reproduction, but the important bit here is that its fully self contained
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The single message recorder from Maplins looks good. Can have an external trigger input (from reciever?) and has a speed adjuster, could this be linked into the reciever somehow? Depending on how you adjust the speed, if it's mechanical (looks like its a potentiometer) you could hitch it up to a servo?
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If the speed control is a trimpot a tad awkward
driving it with a servo on a y lead from the RX.
The switch is a PCB mounted button switch.
If this was a good set up we would all use them
instead of purpose built units.
Ned
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These are the sound systems that a lot of our club members are using from technobots they sound very good in the tugs much dearer than making one from maplin kits but a lot easier.
http://www.technobotsonline.com/light-and-sound-effects/model-engine-sound-effects.html (http://www.technobotsonline.com/light-and-sound-effects/model-engine-sound-effects.html)
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If the speed control is a trimpot a tad awkward
driving it with a servo on a y lead from the RX.
The switch is a PCB mounted button switch.
If this was a good set up we would all use them
instead of purpose built units.
Ned
The Maplin kit http://www.maplin.co.uk/single-message-record-playback-kit-265464 (http://www.maplin.co.uk/single-message-record-playback-kit-265464) looks a lot like the voice recording cards you can get to fit in greetings cards. Had they not dumped the bare chips 7 years ago as soon as I first found that they were useful (this is an old thread), we could have been using them all this time.
It is an excellent set-up, but needs a bit of thought and understanding of its limitations. Basically, its based on a greeting card sound module ( http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30-Sec-Sound-Voice-Recordable-Module-for-Greeting-Card-/111073073259 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/30-Sec-Sound-Voice-Recordable-Module-for-Greeting-Card-/111073073259) ). It is good for a single sound. The switch can be removed and wired off to a switcher or a switch on a servo. The output will probably need amplifying before it gets to the speaker - a self contained amplifier/speaker will do a good job if the model can carry it. A trim pot on the board can be replaced by a more normal size external one on a bit of wire and adjusted by a servo.
This does require a bit of lateral thinking, and, for most modelers the effort is just not worth it when there is a heap of good ready made products at very little extra cost.
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HI ALL
I recently brought from maplins single-message-record-playback-kit-265464 with the idea having a play about to see what could be done with it, the unit can be made to work in a constant loop. The way the sample frequency pot works can all so be made to alter the speed of the recording by connecting up a few more electronic bits which can be wired in to the RX on your boat with out having to use servos. Unit has got mic built on the board that can be changed so you can have what they call the line in which you could use to plug into a CD player or what ever you won't to record from.
I have recently been playing around with a unit that has got a SD card in it the sort of things you use in camcorders, the unit has got a pic chip in it and what you are able to do is record what ever you won't on to the SD card and play it back. I have got it working but have put it on the back burner as i have had to much to do with other electronics. I have just finished off designing new FM video transmitter and receiver.
I must say i played around with recordable sound units many years ago build multiple eprom storage system with constant loop in system so you would be able to constantly repeat the same track in a loop part of this was built with radio link so you could hear what was going off in the boat on the receiver unit on the bank side. Unit was all so cuppulled up with 40 watt audio amp so it was loud.
Since i played around with eproms electronics has come on a long way in a short time but with things like SD cards you can do all sorts of things in a small unit that you would not have been able to do many years ago.
All the best Sub John
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John
Sounds sweet. . now with that coupled to the throttle so it revs up as you apply power is what most people would be looking for . . well me any way so bring it to the front burner and ill have one :-))
Well when you let us know a price that is
all the best Gazza
P.S just started sanding down torpedoes ready for your sub . . . KA BOOM
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Hi All
So been talking to SUB John and at the moment he's playing with electronic stuff again but with a SOUND SYSTEM that can work on the Throttle channel and get faster and slower . . but its to be working on a sound SD card (micro ) Oh yes hurry up please John keep us all posted on what you have planed with this new GIZMO you got
The best bit is you can put what ever sound you want on the card to play in what ever Boat / Car / Tank or even a Plane . . and may be with some extra goodies as well . . :-)) :-)) :-))
Sweet