Model Boat Mayhem

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => The "Black Arts!" ( Electrics & Electronics ) => Topic started by: aln101boat on December 09, 2015, 11:51:51 pm

Title: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: aln101boat on December 09, 2015, 11:51:51 pm
Hello there,
              Bought the above unit and tried it on the radio which is not fitted yet.
Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like no diesel I've ever heard.
   Sounds more like a seagull outboard. The whine of the electric motor would be better.
Charged the Rx batts, but made no difference.
   From the effect, I'm guessing its just a series of voltage spikes making the speaker "pop", as opposed to a sound file.
Any thoughts before I contact the seller and complain bitterly.
rgds Alan
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: malcolmfrary on December 10, 2015, 09:00:18 am
From their site - "Note a power amplifier maybe required in some models."  which probably means that a power amplifier will be needed in most.  The speaker will need to be properly mounted in an enclosure, or at least with a baffle to separate the front and back sound, but a simulator will never be as good as a sampled system.  I don't know if there is a bunch of SMT on the underside of the board - there certainly isn't much stuff on the top.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on December 10, 2015, 09:52:37 am
If it's adjustable - which it clearly is - then it's a synthesised sound and not a proper digital sample. If you want 'the real thing' then it will cost a lot more than twenty one pounds. Alan Bond's (Technobots) diesel sound unit is the best of the synthesised type that I have heard but it's getting on for three times that price.
On the other hand, if you're prepared to wait for a little while then the significance of 'P110' might become clear...  %)
DM
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: g6swj on December 10, 2015, 12:55:21 pm
Inertia,

"If it's adjustable - which it clearly is - then it's a synthesised sound and not a proper digital sample" (sorry don't know how to do the blue box quote function)

By adjustable do you mean the effect that you are  increasing / decreasing revs of the engine sound - if so why does this mean it can't be a digital sample? (Although you may well be right for the product in question)

Jonathan
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on December 10, 2015, 02:00:06 pm
By 'adjustable' I meant changing the character of the engine sound rather than varying its speed. For example the Technobots unit has twenty different "voices". It is basically a series of generated pulses whose waveform can be smoothed out, chopped up, made more spikey, looped etc etc ad nauseam to change the character of the sound. That way it is possible to change from a 4-cylinder diesel to an 8-cylinder sound by turning a few presets and varying the parameters which create the pulses. A digital unit has a real sound recording and without some complicated editing software you can only change the speed of it by changing the rate at which it is sampled.
If you want a musical comparison, a synthesizer can be made to sound pretty much like any musical instrument you can name whereas a violin will only ever sound like a violin - but it will do that job better than any synth can.
DM
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: g6swj on December 10, 2015, 02:05:04 pm
Inertia,

Got it - thank you

Jonathan
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Plastic - RIP on December 10, 2015, 05:08:18 pm
By 'adjustable' I meant changing the character of the engine sound rather than varying its speed. For example the Technobots unit has twenty different "voices". It is basically a series of generated pulses whose waveform can be smoothed out, chopped up, made more spikey, looped etc etc ad nauseam to change the character of the sound. That way it is possible to change from a 4-cylinder diesel to an 8-cylinder sound by turning a few presets and varying the parameters which create the pulses. A digital unit has a real sound recording and without some complicated editing software you can only change the speed of it by changing the rate at which it is sampled.
If you want a musical comparison, a synthesizer can be made to sound pretty much like any musical instrument you can name whereas a violin will only ever sound like a violin - but it will do that job better than any synth can.
DM

Not completely right - most sampled synths use multi-samples across the pitch range so different permutations of sampled sounds are chosen depending on the input so you don't the the 'munchkinisation' as the pitch increases. It all depends on the complexity of the chosen hardware and the amount of memory available.
An analogue representation will only have one changing parameter - pitch - as the throttle is applied - if it switches between waveforms, it will be like changing gear in a car.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: g6swj on December 10, 2015, 05:39:02 pm
Plastic very interesting. Love the word 'munchkinisation' - I read it several times before the penny dropped

There is at least one model sound card that does exactly that, it can select different, preconfigured digital sound samples to be used as the throttle is applied exactly like changing gear in a car - you can also configure the points that trigger the change.



Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Plastic - RIP on December 10, 2015, 05:53:43 pm
If the system is clever enough, the rate of change of throttle on/off could pick a different set of samples from the wavetable to give labouring and over-run sounds along with backfires and exhaust pops & bangs.

All this tech is available and very cheap these days.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Netleyned on December 10, 2015, 06:24:39 pm
My Greeves 250 T and my brother's Talisman twin
sounded like that on the overrun. {-)

Ned
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on December 10, 2015, 06:29:04 pm
Not completely right - most sampled synths use multi-samples across the pitch range so different permutations of sampled sounds are chosen depending on the input so you don't the the 'munchkinisation' as the pitch increases. It all depends on the complexity of the chosen hardware and the amount of memory available.
An analogue representation will only have one changing parameter - pitch - as the throttle is applied - if it switches between waveforms, it will be like changing gear in a car.
"Not completely right" is often right enough. It was a simple question and so I was trying to keep the answer simple for a non-technical member.
He got it.
I'm pleased that your verdict was not "completely wrong" - we could have been here all year.
'Nuff said.  :-))
DM

Remember P110 - you heard it here first  :-X
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: g6swj on December 10, 2015, 07:11:07 pm
Inertia,

Not sure how you come to the conclusion "a non technical member"  - assuming you where referring to me m'duck,  I'd get any hats you have,  line them up in a long line and get ready to eat them.

Watch this space...

Nuff said
Jonathan
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on December 10, 2015, 08:59:16 pm
Inertia,

Not sure how you come to the conclusion "a non technical member"  - assuming you where referring to me m'duck,  I'd get any hats you have,  line them up in a long line and get ready to eat them.

Watch this space...

Nuff said
Jonathan

I wasn't.
The OP was aln101boat.
DM
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: aln101boat on December 10, 2015, 10:43:16 pm
Don't you sometimes wish you hadn't asked :o
  I'm not even sure if anyone actually answered the question.
   The adjustments for 2,3,4,5,6 cylinders just sound like a slightly different seagull outboard.
Has anyone else tried this bit of kit, and was it complete rubbish too?
Alan
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on December 10, 2015, 11:35:40 pm
Don't you sometimes wish you hadn't asked :o
Alan
Yes.
I hope my reply made some sense to you i.e. if you want a real sound then you'll have to pay substantially more for it. Sound simulators are more for toy boats. Think P110...

g6swj
Bad day. Not going to argue with you. All hats duly eaten; socks for dessert.  Nighty-night.

Dave M
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on December 11, 2015, 09:51:39 am
Don't you sometimes wish you hadn't asked :o
  I'm not even sure if anyone actually answered the question.
   The adjustments for 2,3,4,5,6 cylinders just sound like a slightly different seagull outboard.
Has anyone else tried this bit of kit, and was it complete rubbish too?
Alan


I had one fitted in my CHANT Tanker, the 55" version. Using a 4" speaker, baffle mounted vertically in the bows, using the hull as a soundbox to deepen the effect. It sounded like some of the old PAS boats that would chunter round the harbour in the seventies and eighties. Maybe it is down to your speaker placement, this can dramatically alter the output sound of these units. As mentioned previously, its not a posh sound unit, but did the job for me.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: aln101boat on December 11, 2015, 10:03:27 pm
Righto,
Guess I'll just add this to the "experience" box, and throw the item in the bin.
Nothing is going to make its effect even remotely acceptable.
Is the P63 likely to be any better?
Thanks, Alan
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on December 11, 2015, 11:17:14 pm
Is the P63 likely to be any better?
Thanks, Alan
No.
DM
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: TomHugill on December 11, 2015, 11:27:00 pm
If you're looking at sound units forget everything else and get a benedini tbs mini. I've used a few sound systems in different models and the benedini is easiest to make sound files on, make adjustments too and has the smoothest transitions. There are many sound sets too. Also it can control of light and servo functions. It's not cheap at 90 euros but with the weak euro its not insane money.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: rob on December 12, 2015, 09:12:48 am
Sound systems of Canada make, in my humble opinion, the finest sound systems money can buy. I have had two in different 1/6 tank models. YouTube has many references to this system in boats and planes. Not cheap, but the best.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on December 12, 2015, 09:19:00 am
Righto,
Guess I'll just add this to the "experience" box, and throw the item in the bin.
Nothing is going to make its effect even remotely acceptable.
Is the P63 likely to be any better?
Thanks, Alan


That's the spirit, if at first you don't succeed, and all that jazz :-))
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: C-3PO on December 12, 2015, 09:41:36 am
My favourite sound system is the USM-RC2 produced by a German company Beier ( http://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/home/home.php ) - again not cheap but look at what it can actually do for the money - also has 2x20w amps on the board and uses .wav files from SD card - it even has a Juke Box functionality. The configuration software is comprehensive - yes it does take some time to learn and may not be for "all" due to it's complexity but the time investment in my opinion is worth it.

Don't be fooled that this is just for Tanks, Trucks or Cars

Check out this uTube video – all the switching/sound/stall flickering light/engine and reversing sound/ yellow flashing lights etc is all done by the card
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tpYHtsocFE
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBh6cfg4IvA – good example of multi sounds
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Q-7JpZcRQ
 
The clever bit is the link between sound and events (movement etc) and the way you activate the sounds, it can even play random sounds, dim lights, create servo movement multi step sequences( go to a degrees for b seconds, move to y degrees for z seconds) and much more.

Just me pennies worth...

C-3PO
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: malcolmfrary on December 12, 2015, 09:49:54 am
Whatever sound system is used, it can never be better than the loudspeaker and its mounting will allow.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: C-3PO on December 12, 2015, 10:04:52 am
How true the speaker mounting/size/air movement output to the outside world can be a real limiting factor.

The USM RC2 also has inbuilt support for Nautic switching (decoder on board) so you would only need the switch unit installed in your TX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-o-5NCEIh0

C-3PO
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: aln101boat on December 14, 2015, 11:49:56 am
Ok, spend more money!!
All I wanted was a reasonable diesel sound that varied with speed.
Surely it can't be that difficult.
I really don't think I should need to start finding noises myself to program into things.
It was a notion to try out, but I'll just forget it now.
Thanks all.
Alan
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: derekwarner on December 14, 2015, 12:15:01 pm
With the greatest respect Alan  %), I suggest members were only offering an alternative to your disappointment as you first raised with your Seagull sound posting :o ............ Derek
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on December 14, 2015, 02:09:09 pm
Ok, spend more money!!
All I wanted was a reasonable diesel sound that varied with speed.
Surely it can't be that difficult.
I really don't think I should need to start finding noises myself to program into things.
It was a notion to try out, but I'll just forget it now.
Thanks all.
Alan
My good friend and favourite electronics genius The Floating Wombat has a sign on his office door which reads "GOOD. CHEAP. NOW. You can have any two of three". In this case what you seek is available now, but the cheap ones aren't much good and the good ones aren't cheap. You won't need to start finding noises or programming things into other things but you will need to disavow yourself of the idea that twenty quid will tick all the boxes on your wish-list.
If you can find one that does that then would you please let us all know?
DM
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: timgarrod on December 14, 2015, 03:43:58 pm
i've tried a few now,

techobot
robbe navy
graunper sound switch (same as USM-RC2above)

will now only use the USM-RC2 as so flexible if you have to muti switches for robbe or graunper tx's.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: malcolmfrary on December 15, 2015, 10:32:22 am
Quote
"GOOD. CHEAP. NOW. You can have any two of three".
The thing is, for any such system, to make your own to break through the barrier.  By doing that, you figure out why the good ones cost what they do.  There is a long running thread in the "homebrew hacks" section on RCGroups that could help, both with figuring out how to do it and why doing it right costs, both hardware and time.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Dieselman on January 29, 2016, 09:14:13 pm
I am relatively new to the sound scene, have read through the thread and am left asking questions.


What is P110, referred to a number of times?


From my research I am at a loss at the availability of sounds, both synthetic or real.  I am seeking to fit sound to a twin screw diesel tug, the real one runs two medium speed 12 Cylinder Vee form 12000 Hp four stroke turbo charged diesel engines that run at 750 rpm as they are driving Controlled / Variable Pitch Props in Kort Nozzles.  Therefore there is only a start up, run and shut down sounds. 
Call me picky if you wish, but I do not want seagulls  or squeaky rowlocks just plain old four stroke blown diesels, please. Plus if it has to have digital sound samples uploaded it needs to be Mac compatible, please!


So over to you, the specialists of sounds.  Ian
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: derekwarner on January 29, 2016, 09:56:51 pm
Hey Dieselman.....possibly of consideration, whilst a vessel with twin engines & VPP or CPP may have an optimal engine speed [RPM] the actual load on the engine will vary with the pressure angle of the propeller blades

The load on the engine at 750 RPM at zero prop angle will be as you suggest constant...and therefore a constant sound signature, however as the prop blade swash angle increases, the load on the engine will increase requiring more fuel = louder engine exhaust sound relative to the combustion even though the engine is being governed [electronically] to maintain that optimal engine RPM

You may also be able to exploit the actual sounds of the situation if each of the real vessel Kort nozzles are independently steerable as this would then double the options for potential sound range

Your definition as being turbocharged is important as turbocharged engines do have a clearly distinct audible sound over normally aspirated engines of the same cylinder sizing and configuration etc

I have little knowledge of the Black Art so will also stand aside for the specialists of sounds  %)..... Derek
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: malcolmfrary on January 30, 2016, 09:22:13 am

What is P110, referred to a number of times?


Possibly a newer version of (or a misplint for) this - http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/P100.pdf
The sound quality is determined by the amplifier used, the speaker, how the speaker is mounted (these 3 are common to all sound units) but is also dependent on the quality of the sample used.  A better sample will give a better result, but all units are limited by the first three considerations.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Shipmate60 on January 30, 2016, 01:08:43 pm
When listening to a boat/ship passing the main engines are not usually the most audible.
The generators being usually smaller and turbocharged tend to make a higher pitched noise which travels further and is more noticeable.
The main engines with their larger diameter exhaust and silencer just supply a background "rumble".
Unless manouvering alongside or around an obstacle the main engines are designed and used at their most fuel efficient speed and not changed much at all.


Bob
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Tug Fanatic on January 30, 2016, 01:59:30 pm
When listening to a boat/ship passing the main engines are not usually the most audible.
The generators being usually smaller and turbocharged tend to make a higher pitched noise which travels further and is more noticeable.
The main engines with their larger diameter exhaust and silencer just supply a background "rumble".
Unless manouvering alongside or around an obstacle the main engines are designed and used at their most fuel efficient speed and not changed much at all.


Bob

Couldn't agree more! I have heard very few model sound systems that sound anything like right for a bigger engine. I think that the best that I have heard is in this and it is, I was told, no longer commercially available :

 
Regretably that big deep rumble needs a big speaker/ cabinet to get it to sound correct. I actually think that the sound does differ slightly with throttle. There is a constant background rumble but then an exhaust rumble that somehow gets a little more pronounced with throttle. I haven't tried this but I suspect that a constant background plus a slightly throttle dependent engine thudding rumble would do the job.

Standing at the harbour entrance Felixstowe at a very quiet and calm 6am on a beautiful summer morning with a large container ship on the move with tugs in attendance is a perfect example of this.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Dieselman on January 30, 2016, 05:27:53 pm
Thank you all, especially Derek, who has the honour of being the first respondent to my first Mayhem Forum Pos!


I did wonder if the P110 was actually Action Electronics P100 "Noisy Thing" 
Currently this falls over purely because it is Windows based and all my sounds etc are on a Mac! Secondly it would be good to hear of anyone else's experiences with this piece of kit, ease of use, control of it, does it multi function, i.e. supply the "background Auxiliaries sounds  ( gennie's, fans, pumps compressors etc) and then give main engine and or thruster sounds simultaneously as in the real world, or what.


As to the advice on speaker, mounting of etc, fully understood, have awful memories of early sound system at home, all due to poor speakers!!


I know I am new at this sound thing, but cannot help wondering why I keep hearing model boats that have engines that would be air start, by air admission direct to its cylinders sounding like a Big Rig with an Electric Starter Motor!
Am thinking that this may be a lost cause right now, due to the end result not matching up due to amp and speaker limitations in a model boat.  No sound is better than a bag of spanners rattling away!


Any more thoughts from you knowledgable ones, thanks
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: inertia on January 30, 2016, 09:15:15 pm
P110 will be the replacement for P100 - eventually... 8)
DM
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: Brian60 on February 02, 2016, 08:39:13 am
I'm a bit late to this discussion however, surely the over riding sound to be heard from a model is the relative whine of the electric drive motors? How do the sound units overcome this or are they so loud that they can drown out the whine? I've not experienced a sound unit so would be interested how they solve this conundrum.

Also the sound from your diesel unit may be heard when close in, but 30ft out on a lake? If you can hear it then surely it is out of all proportion to the model and of course real life which is what you are trying to imitate. A bit like having a car stereo playing normally and one of the idiots with a mobile boom box on wheels.
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: derekwarner on February 02, 2016, 09:00:51 am
This is interesting %) & I suggest where true scale [sound] may not necessarily be the better option

The sound of a medium speed turbo charged diesel engines of the sizing originally mentioned, would be realistic even when used on VPP or CPP :-)).......... Derek
Title: Re: modelradioworkshop diesel sound
Post by: wombat on February 02, 2016, 10:59:05 am
Hopefully not that eventually Dave.....


Pre-production prototypes lined up for test. RC1 software handed over. I would hope to be able to talk specs soon


Wom