Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Working Vessels => Topic started by: Edmund on December 13, 2015, 02:57:02 pm
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The pond is covered with ice, and anyway its awful cold outside so to the workshop to have a play around.
I've an old and rather badly made fibreglass hull I'd acquired from somewhere. It was for a brigantine, so intended to have a bowsprit and has a squared off counter stern. What to make? - it could be a sailing ship. Or how about a Victorian steam ship. It's a period not many people model, partly I suppose because there are few photos.
Ships didn't have much superstructure but instead were generally full rigged as they carried sails to supplement their engines. Now I don't think at a model scale something powered by both sails and motors would be easy to model. Scale sail needs a lot of weight beneath the water line, and anyway early Victorian powered ships had paddlewheels which would be difficult to work with sails.
So a ship with paddle wheels and rigged with masts and booms. They do appear in museum and collections and one that appeals and fits the hull within reason is the paddlesteamer Sirius which made the first fully powered crossing of the Atlantic in competition with Brunel's Great Western in 1838.
So not an exact scale model - a bit wide and deep - but at approximately 1/48th scale a fair representation of the type of ship of the period, and a whole series of pictures of models of the Sirius available off the internet and other sources to show rigging and deck fittings and so on.
So we'll see how we go....
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Looks like an interesting project. Keep posting the pictures please.
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Hi there Edmund
Not sure if you know, but, Model Boats had an article on The Sirius. I cant remember when it was - I think it was the 70s or 80s - there was a pic of a model on the front - I think the model was steam powered - I will look to see if I can find the magazine.
aye
John
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http://www.magazineexchange.co.uk/model-boats-magazine-april-1978-issue.html?&cat=1378
this is it - April 1978 issue.
aye
John
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This Sirius was built by will Mowell who went on to build the Great Briton, HMS Warrior and HMS Thunderer.
LB
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Fantastic!
While doing a little research of my own, as I was waiting for glue to dry, I realise that I have a book, SS Great Britain, the Model Ship by William Mowll and that has in its first chapter a description of him building the PS Sirius, and even has some pictures and a simple plan. He built a steam powered version and I rather suspect that might be the one covered by Model Boats magazine. The dates would fit.
Excited now I've found a plan but realise that my hull is a bit chubby with a 1:5 ratio length to width as opposed to the 1:7 ratio of the original. More stable which might be good for a paddle steamer but I think mine might have to representative of type rather than a scale model.
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The results of glue drying! The paddle shaft in place. 6mm steel rod through short brass tubes. The mechanics go in place first of all....
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Now that is a fine project coming along. Your project is definitly on my watch list Edmund. Keep up the good work :-))
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Hello Edmund,
I will follow your posts closely .I love paddlers.Keep up the good work.
:-))
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A little more work on the ship!
First the rudder - a nice kit from Mobile Marine Models which makes a good strong large rudder to your own design. All the metal work is included to add to a plywood rudder. So the tube is epoxied into place as is the lower hinge at the keel and in the background the rudder glueing, a rather oversized one, to help in steering. The paddle wheels will be on a single shaft with a single motor so the rudder is going to have to do all the work in steering.
The paddles are part of the reason for building the ship. The paddle wheel kit came from Germany and was for a sternwheeler - I have previously built a sternwheeler using the wheel - the W H Bancroft. A friend sold me another set of them. This time I've built the wheel in two parts. Each part will be glued to a brass tube and that will be attached to the paddle shaft with a split pin.
Is the ship going to be the PS Sirius? A little more research into vessels of the era and I discover the PS Forfarshire built a few years later. It was built about half a mile from where I live, in a Dundee shipyard, and was made infamous or famous when wrecked off the Farne Islands, when Grace Darling rowed out to rescue the passangers and crew. Paintings show a very similar paddle steamer, brigantine rigged, but the dimensions fit my hull much better at 1/48th scale. As for deck fittings and arrangements, no one will ever know as there are no plans or pictures. But it was always going to be a generic model of an 1830's/40's paddle steamer.....
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That is coming along fine Edmund.
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"The paddle wheel kit came from Germany"
Who was the supplier, interested to know.
Thanks, Terry.
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Who was the supplier, interested to know.
Thanks, Terry.
I've attached the link which I hope works. It is designed for a sternwheeler called Chaperon. They deliver quickly with no problem. About £30 with the postage.
http://www.engel-modellbau.eu/catalog/index.php?cPath=219 (http://www.engel-modellbau.eu/catalog/index.php?cPath=219)
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Thanks for the quick reply Edmund, link does work.
Cheers, Terry
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That is quite reasonable considering the cost of other drive systems for tugs etc. Even with motors, it would still be reasonable.
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It's a good strong paddlewheel for a non feathering application. Driving my sternwheeler a como motor with a 1:50 gearbox makes it steam along very powerfully.
It is about [/size][size=78%]6 inches across so quite big. I think I will add a rim to it to try and make it look more like a nineteenth century wheel - and paint it red! I have fixed the plastic hub with glue to a brass tube which is then pinned to the shaft with a split pin, so that the wheels and shaft can be removed from the boat when needed.[/size]
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Brill!
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A cousin of ours was drowned when the Forfarshire was wrecked. Apparently he had been selling horses and was on his way home with his gold and didn't want to let go of it when the ship sank. He is buried in a graveyard in Nottingham.
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Went down to the McManus Gallery in Dundee this morning to see the figurehead of the Forfarshire but its away in storage. I'll need to see if I can get another visit into the stores to see if I can see it.
But there were some paintings. First the rather over the top Victorian melodramatic Wreck of the Forfarshire, survivors clinging to a raft with the lighthouse, like a warning finger pointing to heaven, with Grace Darling and her father heroically rowing the dinghy in the stormy waves. The detail is of the rowboat.
There was a portrait of Grace Darling as well, and another of her father but the glass over the paintings and the computer display behind made it impossible to take a decent photo.
I'm getting quite taken by the Forfarshire as the vessel to model.
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Researching what I could about the Forfarshire, I found the builders, Adamson and Borrie of Dundee. Adamson was the shipwright and Borrie the engine maker, and they had a partnership that built a series of steam ships through the early nineteenth century.
I found the plans of a similar ship to the Forfarshire, built by Adamson and Borrie, almost the same dimensions, built a year later in 1837, named the Sea Horse. Only difference seems to be that it was three masted instead of two masted. Interesting in that it shows the general arrangement of the ship, and where the deck houses were and the hatches and skylights and companionways which can give me some ideas for my ship. It would be unlikely that ships of a similar period from the same ship yard would have been that different.
Sea Horse sailed between Ireland the United Kingdom and later in life, in 1845 sailed to Australia and spent another ten years transporting miners for the Australian gold rush before disappearing from the registers in 1855
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I think it is fair to say that in general, ship development is 'Evolution' rather than 'Revolution' as can be seen by the fact that eary steam ships were sailing ships with steam power and why such interesting oddities as Novgorod and the Winnan's cigar ships became dead ends.
Therefore, unless the customer specified something really new and unusual, that ship builders fayre would be accepted with provisos such as a slightly larger deck house, an extra mast and perhaps a different paddle housing or similar.
You won't go far wrong copying the references you have acquired Edmund.
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A little more work, supports for the deck, motor support, paddle box outsides. Also a little alteration to make a proper clipper bow. Beginning to take shape...
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Top notch work Edmund.
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Best of a bad job. I'm realising what a rubbish fibreglass moulding it is. It's not symmetrical which shows as I measure up the deck, and I've had to fill the gel coat in various places where it's not connected to the matting. I'm hoping its going to be waterproof! Let's hope that it will all look beautiful when complete! I can't remember where I got the hull from - not a commercial production in any case.
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Can you do a water test now before you advance too far? It might mean some quick varnishing etc but it looks like your build will be intricate and I am sure we would all hate to see your efforts take a dive.
A good example is our Bob K, who spent ages on his Polyphemus and had the tinker sink on him last year after completion. Luckily, being a trooper, he did restore it to working order.
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Christmas gets in the way but at last the test tank is free and available and so a water test to see if the hull floats.
And it does without a leak, needing over 6kg of lead acid batteries to bring it down to a reasonable water line. Still a scruffy hull but it shall be painted black above the waterline and I think anti slug tape below the water line to give the semblance of a copper bottom. It's fantastic stuff, water-proof and has created a barrier against leaks in a number of model boats. In this boat it should look rather splendid, left copper coloured. The wheels will be red as will the funnel when it gets to that stage.
So we start to model the decks and deck houses.....
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and I think anti slug tape below the water line to give the semblance of a copper bottom.
Now that sounds interesting...tell us more?
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It is self adhesive copper tape of different widths. Available in garden centres but cheapest off that internet auction website. Slug tape is what you would search for.
It sticks to most things and is waterproof and can be smoothed out nicely. It can look like plating when painted and I'm hoping it will look like the nailed on copper sheets of a Victorian ship's bottom.
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That sounds interesting product, have you any photo's of it on a hull? Seems like the ideal stuff for my next build which will feature a full plated hull (overpainted of course).
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Just as a matter of interest, Is copper coloured the right colour?
'Cos it occurs to me that having covered a ships hull below the waterline in copper, and then sailed it in salt water for a few months, the colour would be more like verdigris. i.e. speckled greenish.
NNF
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You're absolutely right of course. But I don't know what they do to this copper because it seems to spend all winter round plant pots in my garden staying a brilliant copper colour and not stopping the slugs!
What could one put on copper to give it a coat of verdigris? Would a gentle acid - vinegar or something do it?
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I believe it can be done with Miracle Grow but not done it myself. If it works then at least you haven't got a chemical to dispose of ... well not a noxious one I suppose.
Dave
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Yes, I think many of the patination fluids are a bit bad for the environment, but I cannot say for today as I have not dabbled with them for twenty years or more since college.
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What could one put on copper to give it a coat of verdigris? Would a gentle acid - vinegar or something do it?
Salt?? - though if it stays copper coloured on plant pots all Winter it probably needs a mild abbrasive applied first and possibly a long wait.
NNF
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A ship that is actively sailed will not have any verdegris on the copper plating. The water washing past the hull keeps the plating clean, it's only on the museum ships that never move you get the green colour. The plating will be a dull copper not brightly polished. Also as the copper plating was produced in batches which were not identical you should have a patchwork effect of different shades over the hull bottom.
Jim
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So a coat of black matt humbrol paint and a copper bottom. You see the plates in the first photo and what a different vessel it looks given a waterline and a coat of paint in the second. Third picture shows the over shiny bottom which needs something doing to it. Interesting Jim, but what can we do to give it a dull copper look. Maybe a copper looking paint or a matt varnish?
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My experience with slug tape, in its original use ok2 , is that it very quickly dulls if it gets wet.
Barrie
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Tamiya Smoke airbrushed over the copper might dull it down especially if mixed with some varnish. This is a black-brown wash that Tamiya sell for automotive model weathering to heat tarnish chrome exhausts. They do red blue and a few other colours as clear tints for painting car lights etc.
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I'm afraid there is nothing dull about this boat's bottom at the moment! But we will explore the possibilities soon!
So paddle boxes in place, plywood sponsons and plastic card and as you can see a few ribs and bulwarks in place and the beginnings of the poop deck railings and masts and bowsprit stepped temporarily. Compare with the picture of the model of the Sirius, though as I've said before this is a generic example. I haven't chosen a name as yet.
And while I'm thinking of it, does anyone know a source of 1/48th scale Victorians? O gauge model railways would do perhaps. I think a crew and a few passengers should look the part
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For figures, try www.acstadden.co.uk and his range of 1/43rd (0 gauge) figures, some likely candidates for both categories there.
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For figures, try www.acstadden.co.uk (http://www.acstadden.co.uk) and his range of 1/43rd (0 gauge) figures, some likely candidates for both categories there.
Just the thing! Brunel can take command on the bridge and we can have some stoic looking ladies promenading the poop with bewhiskered husbands! Thanks for passing on this website!
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Coming along a little further - now this is what I like - a little decoration, saucy figurehead, and a bit of brass, a few deck houses emerging as well......
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There's nowt like a mutton chop:O)
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It's coming along a bit! Now really beginning to look the part. I've done a lot of looking at pictures in books to get the sense of the layout of the decks and cabins and companionways. It is interesting how busy the deck can appear on a ship that has no deck houses.
So the basics of the standing rigging are up. I'm going for a simplified rig as it's got to sail and suffer the bangs and bumps of transport to the pond and sailing on the high seas. Still there are the appropriate dead eyes on the shrouds. Running rigging will be even more simplified. Three spars on the main mast and a boom on the mizzen and hopefully I will still be able to get down the hatches and change the batteries.
And I'm building a smoke machine to produce some vapour out the funnel. A water mister that arrived from Hong Kong yesterday costing £1.49 including postage, seems to produce volumes of thick fog when connected to 24volts. Very exciting! I just need a small water tank to put it in to....
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Wow, you have charged ahead with the build Edmund! I am interested to see how your sailing system works out for when I get on with Rupert.
She only has one mast, so it won't be as extensive as your rig that's for sure.
Lovely work, Can't wait to see it on the water; still or in motion.
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How's the Rupert getting along? I presume she is the 1872 version of the warship? There is something very characterful about these 19th century ships. Looking at these models takes one back to an age that can never be returned to. Museum ships don't quite do it.
Still looking for a name for mine. The Dundee company of ship builders in the 1830's Adamson and Borrie built three steam paddle steamers in 1836 - 1838. Forfarshire - from which Grace Darling was able to save some of the passengers a couple of years later when wrecked on the Farnes, the New Athens, a reference to
Edinburgh and a book that had come out about the town in 1837 and the ship the Sea Horse whose general arrangement plan I photographed earlier from a book i have. Which one should it be?
Anyway back to Rupert, I see you left us mid build last June or so. Have you had a chance to do more work since?
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I am in the process of remodelling the mounts for the conical shaft housings before I start to fibreglass the hull. I still plan to get the destroyer finished first and then straight on to Rupert.
Regarding names, Forfarshire has that wonderful link to it that would make every RNLI lifeboat modeller proud despite the tragic circumstances that so often spur people to form Institutes and Societies that serve to better our world. Seahorse is a nice name that would catch the general public's eye.
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Found this pic in "The First Atlantic Liners", better in the book of a replica built of the vessel a few years back.
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One wonders what became of the reconstruction. It is rather splendid isn't it? Perhaps someone knows? It was built for a film I beleive.
There is one bit of the original Sirius left I have discovered in my research. The paddleshaft is on display in Monkstown County Cork near where the ship was lost. The shaft was re-used as part of the machinery in a local factory for many years, before being "rescued " and put in a local park.
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Wish all the best with the project, a very interesting build look forward to seeing it at Wicksteed.
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A little research discovered that the film was made in 1939 and was called Rulers of the Sea starring Douglas Fairbanks Jnr. It was about the SS Sirius although in the film the ship was named Dog Star. I've ordered myself a DVD of the film for £4....
And some more pictures - the first a great print of a paddle steamer in trouble in a storm. Fantastic because this gives one the sort of information one needs for research purposes. It shows fairly clearly the whole deck arrangement of this Victorian paddle steamer, and the artist also understands rigging. Much of the standing and running rigging that you would expect is in place, so from an era before photography here is some excellent source material.
And then some more of the latest look of my ship. It is populated with some fabulous 0 gauge figures, Brunel standing on the bridge, rather incongruously. After all he was on the rival ship the Great Western! But the stovepipe hat is the right look for the period.
Still a bit more work to do with rigging and hatches and the exposed bits of the side lever engine which poked through the deck under the bridge. Maybe the water on Sunday this week? We'll see what that weather is doing!
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That will be a bobby dazzler on the water! She looks excellent and a good and quick build as well.
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Well here she is on the water, and I've given her the name PS or SS Forfarshire, in honour of the ship built in Dundee in 1836 which sank two years later off the Farne Islands - made famous by Grace Darling who rowed out to rescue members of the passengers and crew.
The film is taken from the deck of the W. H Bancroft another of my paddlesteamers - a nice steady platform to film from and manoeuvrable into the bargain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-_pHS-uKEc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
This was a great maiden voyage - no problems at all. And lots of fantastic comments from members of the public. Something about masts, rigging and paddle wheel combination that fascinates people!
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I saw the family first talking to you or fellow boaters and then tme looking in awe a little later on from the other side of the lake. I can see why Ed, shes a beauty.
Built very quickly but not lacking times spent on her.
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'Fantastic comments ' that were well deserved.
Beautifull looking boat that has been modelled really well.
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what a little beauty. very stately.
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I use a slow motion feature on the camera, which gives a much more realistic view of the model for film purposes...
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Excellent work! Any chance you could show/explain how the access to the workings is achieved?
NNF
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How do you get in? Well the running rigging to the spars is made with black Shirring elastic so it can stretch and be pulled over the funnel and take a knock or two.
Photo 1 shows everything together, photo 2 the bridge lifted off which just drops over the paddle boxes, and photo 3 shows the main deck lifted.
Battery is out for charging and the smoke machine is not in place. The battery fits under the paddle shaft and is a large 12v SLA 12 Amp hour affair, mainly to provide ballast, as it shows no sign of discharging even after a 2 hour run. Motor is a 12v MFA 1:50 to a 1:1 toothed belt drive. The smoke machine that needs to run on 24v has a small transformer to raise the voltage.
You'll note in one photo a switch on the deck port side to switch the radio and power on, easily accessible with all the deck and bridge on. There is going to be second switch for the smoke generator, and then there will be no need to open the ship up on the pond side, except that it took in a little water through the paddle shaft glands that needed tipping out after an hour and a half or so. There happens to be a drain hole under the deck at the back, so tipped on its stern the water all came out quite easily, as the battery is quite secure. Won't be able to do that with the smoke generator in operation!!
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Excellent! Many thanks
NNF
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVPV_78Gg2A
Link to the latest youtube video of the paddle steamer Forfarshire sailing round our local pond. Firstly views from the deck, with cold looking passengers, and then views from the pond side looking over her sailing on quite a breezy day.
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Lovely film Edmund. I still cannot believe how lucky you are living right near the pond!
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At least you have a nice lake to sail on, not like the puddle we have at New Brighton.
LB
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At least you have a nice lake to sail on, not like the puddle we have at New Brighton.
LB
I looked your club up and despite being small it seemed a very nice puddle! Our boats can disappear into the distance and lose contact with our transmitters. Mine regularly stop in the middle to wait for the receiver to bind again.
I like the coaming round your pond as well. It not only gives a better view of the boats but makes it so much easier to get a boat into the water. Several times I've nearly done a nose dive into the water, trying to get a boat out - paddle steamers are difficult to get out on a launching trolley.
And don't get me started on the subject of water weed! Already two types are reaching to the surface to help clog propellers and snag keels. Our supportive local councillor suggested the council concrete the bottom of the pond. Quick back-track when she realised that would cost £400,000!
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Tell her that dredging and dyeing will be much cheaper, and maybe if she could sign one of you off to do the dyeing I.e, show they are competent and won't run off with the dye money, then this would be cheaper still.
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Well we are still sailing on the pond despite the weed.
Sirius or Forfarshire as she finally turned out was a ship of the 19th century - the late 1830's and another of my paddle steamers, the Ryde is a ship of the 1930's. They are both of the same scale and a nice comparison to one another at exhibitions.
So here is the Ryde sailing on the pond tonight - looking good I think? Click on the link to see the video.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrjL2_BU8l8
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Well we are still sailing on the pond despite the weed.
Sirius or Forfarshire as she finally turned out was a ship of the 19th century - the late 1830's and another of my paddle steamers, the Ryde is a ship of the 1930's. They are both of the same scale and a nice comparison to one another at exhibitions.
So here is the Ryde sailing on the pond tonight - looking good I think? Click on the link to see the video.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrjL2_BU8l8
Beautiful, Edmund.
It's a shame that the real ship ended the way she did.
Jim.
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You did well to control your ship and fend off midges Edmund! I can't get enough of your lovely pond.
She looks a fine ship and really sails well.
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Beautiful, Edmund.
It's a shame that the real ship ended the way she did.
Jim.
[/quoted]
It was the reason I built the model. I thought there probably no other way to preserve the ship, and she is a beautiful ship.
Modellers often build the Clyde steamers up here in Scotland and I thought it would be nice to build a Clyde ship that sailed elsejwhere.