Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Brian60 on December 24, 2015, 11:21:08 am
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I'm watching a program on PBS America about the development of nuclear weapons. I nearly fell off the sofa laughing at how ridiculous some of this was in hindsight.
Talking to some of the scientists from the time, the first hydrogen bomb, when dropped was the equivelent of 50 million tons of normal explosive. The pilot after dropping the bomb returned to base and resigned immediately, stating the world had gone mad.
They developed a nuclear hand grenade. Or as the guy said, the development was no problem, finding somebody dumb enough to throw it was the problem %% {-)
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If as a last resort , you now you are not going to make it out alive.. Same as a lot of the Kamikaze weapons in the WWII
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I'm watching a program on PBS America about the development of nuclear weapons. I nearly fell off the sofa laughing at how ridiculous some of this was in hindsight.
Talking to some of the scientists from the time, the first hydrogen bomb, when dropped was the equivelent of 50 million tons of normal explosive. The pilot after dropping the bomb returned to base and resigned immediately, stating the world had gone mad.
They developed a nuclear hand grenade. Or as the guy said, the development was no problem, finding somebody dumb enough to throw it was the problem %% {-)
There was some serious nonsense in there:
The first two atomic bombs each had the equivalent destructive power of 20,000 tons of TNT, not 50,000,000.
Neither of the two pilots involved (Paul Tibbets and Charles Sweeney) resigned after their missions.
No hydrogen bomb has ever been dropped on an enemy.
There are now thousands of individuals in Syria and Iraq who would be only too pleased to be given a nuclear hand-grenade to throw (now there's a cheerful thought for this time of year) although it would probably be too heavy to pick up.
It's not the world that has gone mad - it's the lunatics who run it.
Merry Christmas everybody...
DM
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Inertia. You have my post all confused.
I did not say it was either of the first two atomic bombs - hence the reason for saying it was 50 million tons, it was the first detonation of a hydrogen ie fusion bomb not an atomic fission bomb.
I never mentioned that a hydrogen bomb had been dropped on an enemy, it was dropped for testing purposes.
Neither did I say it was dropped by Tibbetts crew, it was a test crew in the 1950's long after the Enola Gay!
Please go back and re read the original.
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Please go back and re read the original.
I have - and I shall now go and research that nuclear hand-grenade. If successful I shall make two.
BTW what was it that was so ridiculous in the program that it made you fall off the couch sofa laughing? You didn't say.
DM
Later...
I have now commenced - and ended - my research into the nuclear hand grenade. I have concluded that if you put enough geeks together on an Internet forum and ask them to discuss miniaturising nuclear weapons they could bore the entire world to a standstill in less time than it takes to press a Red button and shout "Geronimo!". If anyone wants to, Google the Davy Crockett weapon. It will fascinate you %)
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https://vimeo.com/135580602 (https://vimeo.com/135580602)
:-)) Just helping with the festive spirit !!
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I was stationed on Christmas Island during the nuclear test programme in the early 60s. Talking to the Yanks at the time, there were rumours of a 'nuclear hand grenade' but it was just that, as it was a totally improbable device - at least for the Americans! They did however produce a nuclear shell which had a range of about 4 - 5 miles (!) if I remember correctly. I was told that when it was fired, the immediate radiation hazard to the firer was considerable.
Whilst I was there, the first test ban Treaty was signed banning all future atmospheric tests - thank goodness. I believe that the French continued with their tests in the Pacific though.
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Nemo according to the program, the US carried out their last nuclear test in 1993 {:-{ although a child of the atomic age so to speak I found this quite absurd and appalling. After 50 years of knowing how lethal these weapons were, they were none the less still carrying out tests so late in the century.
The program ended with no end of insiders, scientists, military, government advisors etc etc, saying the world back in the 1960's and the 1980's :o still fails to understand just how close we came to nuclear annihilation. Apparently the 1980's event was considered even worse than the 1960's cuban crisis. I for one don;t know what that event was!
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Perhaps Nemo was thinking of the M65 atomic cannon. lobbed a 15kt shell 7 miles. how far does the radio-active cloud reach before its no-longer lethal?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GBjlUOROY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GBjlUOROY)
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............................Apparently the 1980's event was considered even worse than the 1960's cuban crisis. I for one don;t know what that event was!
I am aware of 2 reported events both in 1983 which was a time of very high tensions between the US & USSR with the USSR convinced that Ronald Raegan wanted a war.
In one the Russian missile warning system was reported to have detected a pair of US Minuteman intercontinental nuclear missile launches. Only someone realising that it was a system error prevented a retaliatory launch and then...........
In the other the US was conducting a massive war game/ exercise and it is reported that part of the intention was to convince the USSR that it was genuine preparation for war so that the effectiveness of the USSR systems would become clear to the US. Whether it was intentional or not they very nearly succeeded and then..............
Sounds incredible now but at the time............
I know that the US are our friends & I love the US and many of its achievments but I have a nasty feeling that history will see the US as being the agressor nation & the USSR as the one receiving most of the threats. There were a lot of US missiles nearer the USSR than Cuba was to the USA.
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Sure I read somewhere that in the 80's 90's a large flock of Birds also triggered an alarm when headed towards Russia.
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I found this to be a shocking documentry back in 1990's.
The sheer number of tests left me gob smacked.
It is no wonder cancer is an issue of health.
{:-{
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMWXsdgVT0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMWXsdgVT0w)
This is a timelapse of every nuclear explosion ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY
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I did not say it was either of the first two atomic bombs - hence the reason for saying it was 50 million tons, it was the first detonation of a hydrogen ie fusion bomb not an atomic fission bomb.
I was watching almost the same program. The 50 Megaton bomb was nicknamed the "Tsar", largely because it was a Soviet device.
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The Russians made 2 Nuclear bombs . A 50 Mega Ton and a 100 Mega Ton. Tested the 50 Mega ton weapon in Siberia and the blast ring was about 100 miles wide. They reckon it was closer to 75 Mega ton than 50 Mega ton . They were to scared to test the 100 Mega ton bomb .That was the biggest device ever tested by mankind.
john
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I am aware of 2 reported events both in 1983 which was a time of very high tensions between the US & USSR with the USSR convinced that Ronald Raegan wanted a war.
In one the Russian missile warning system was reported to have detected a pair of US Minuteman intercontinental nuclear missile launches. Only someone realising that it was a system error prevented a retaliatory launch and then...........
In the other the US was conducting a massive war game/ exercise and it is reported that part of the intention was to convince the USSR that it was genuine preparation for war so that the effectiveness of the USSR systems would become clear to the US. Whether it was intentional or not they very nearly succeeded and then..............
Sounds incredible now but at the time............
I know that the US are our friends & I love the US and many of its achievments but I have a nasty feeling that history will see the US as being the agressor nation & the USSR as the one receiving most of the threats. There were a lot of US missiles nearer the USSR than Cuba was to the USA.
The event was able archer, they're making a film about the chap who made the call not to launch retaliatory strikes. Apparently it was odd readings bouncing off cloud? Very scary stuff, although makes fascinating reading now.
On the subject of nuclear devises. The Russians had a nuclear mortar round which was fired from this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S4_Tyulpan
And they also had a mobile nuclear generator.
http://sovietologist.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/pamir-nuclear-power-goes-on-road.html?m=1
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The Russians made 2 Nuclear bombs . A 50 Mega Ton and a 100 Mega Ton. Tested the 50 Mega ton weapon in Siberia and the blast ring was about 100 miles wide. They reckon it was closer to 75 Mega ton than 50 Mega ton . They were to scared to test the 100 Mega ton bomb .That was the biggest device ever tested by mankind.
john
No only officially made one. The initial design of the tsar bomb would have been capable of 100MT yield but it would have destroyed the aircraft it was launched from and the fallout was judged to be too large so when it was built it was as a 50 MT weapon.
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Nemo according to the program, the US carried out their last nuclear test in 1993 {:-{ although a child of the atomic age so to speak I found this quite absurd and appalling. After 50 years of knowing how lethal these weapons were, they were none the less still carrying out tests so late in the century.
The program ended with no end of insiders, scientists, military, government advisors etc etc, saying the world back in the 1960's and the 1980's :o still fails to understand just how close we came to nuclear annihilation. Apparently the 1980's event was considered even worse than the 1960's cuban crisis. I for one don;t know what that event was!
I was referring to the atmospheric nuclear tests, which ended in 1963 with the Treaty I mentioned. After this, tests continued underground until the end of the so-called Cold War. Nevada deserts are pockmarked with the results, but at least the atmosphere was a lot less polluted with fallout for 30 years! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Test_Site
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Perhaps Nemo was thinking of the M65 atomic cannon. lobbed a 15kt shell 7 miles. how far does the radio-active cloud reach before its no-longer lethal?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GBjlUOROY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GBjlUOROY)
I am very dubious about that video. The blast effect and cloud look like they were Photoshopped!
A bit of searching came up with this as the more probable one my American colleagues mentioned back in '62 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device)
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Well without an atomic explosion I can tell you that the USA experts (and others) are still cleaning-up plutonium from the area in Spain where 4 A-bombs were accidentally dropped when a B-52 and flight refuelling C-135 collided over Palomares on Jan 1966. None of them exploded or it would have been much worse. I was working for the USAF at the time but declined the offer of a trip to "sunny Spain" fifty years ago. If they had exploded the time would have to be centuries or even longer before I could have enjoyed a suntan...or maybe not , I could just have waited till the prevailing SW wind brought up some radio-active isotopes to Scotland. :(( :(( :(( and perhaps for a further thousand years.
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That would be the same prevailing wind the helped that the then UK government`s choice of place to build the experimental nuclear plant at in Caithness, a few miles from John `o Groats. Being so safe as they said, why was it not built on the Isle of Dogs for example or Sussex or Kent ??? The Norwegian and Swedish governments were not happy about the decision. It is taking a while to dismantle at immense cost. They still pick-up radio-active particles from the nearby beach. >:-o
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I am very dubious about that video. The blast effect and cloud look like they were Photoshopped!
A bit of searching came up with this as the more probable one my American colleagues mentioned back in '62 -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Crockett_(nuclear_device))
I agree that the video after the firing is dubious, probably stock "nuclear explosion" footage, but the device did exist, in fact more than one was built. I do think only one shell was ever fired, as a test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M65_Atomic_Cannon
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tsenecal, yes, I did realise that. In fact they kept the weapon till 1963 when the test ban came in. I note that they were also not considered a success due to several logistical factors.
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Spain and the US have recently agreed a compensation deal over the Palomares incident. Apart from a lot of money changing hands, the US has agreed to clear many 1000's of tons of earth and other detritus from Spain back to the US for 'decontamination' Wonder why they waited 40 years?
Does anyone remember the protect and survive instructional films from the 50s/60s? How to build shelters in your homes? That had nothing to do with protection. Some bright spark in Whitehall realised that a country littered with millions of corpses would not be good for the health of those that did survive. SO why not invent a scheme that urged people to bury themselves?
Sounds remarkable now, but for somebody to be so callous and insular to come up with a scheme like that makes you sit and think what governments really think of their people.
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I think the WW11 Anderson shelter was 50% just what you say , a family grave in each garden. The 100 person brick built one on our street would have just been a collection centre for corpses. I think that experiences in Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have provided some information for the KYAGB type instructions %)
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During our 75th Naval Celebrations, BB63 entered Sydney harbour & tied up at my place of work :-X.......the anti-nuke brigade made their usual rubber duckie protest against that vessels reported nuclear powered propulsion system [which was naturally oil fired boilers & steam turbines]
To add insult to injury, a helo pilot from HMS Illustrious %) hovered over the protesters at the bow of the 'Might Mo' & blew them away toward the harbour bridge {-)
Little did they realise that tied up at the Loo, was a 4000 something tonne RN Frigate with nuclear tipped projectiles for her pop gun O0
Not surprisingly, that fact never made the press release or TV news.......... Derek
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A few years ago when holidaying in Las Vegas we went up into the mountains and saw the underground nuclear test sites. I was told that from the vantage point a lot of bigwigs would watch the big bang, knowing they were safe as the wind was always behind them so it blew the fallout towards Utah and Salt Lake City. That is why apparently that city has the highest rates of any type of cancer in the entire USA.
Brian
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During our 75th Naval Celebrations, BB63 entered Sydney harbour & tied up at my place of work :-X.......the anti-nuke brigade made their usual rubber duckie protest against that vessels reported nuclear powered propulsion system [which was naturally oil fired boilers & steam turbines]
To add insult to injury, a helo pilot from HMS Illustrious %) hovered over the protesters at the bow of the 'Might Mo' & blew them away toward the harbour bridge {-)
Little did they realise that tied up at the Loo, was a 4000 something tonne RN Frigate with nuclear tipped projectiles for her pop gun O0
Not surprisingly, that fact never made the press release or TV news.......... Derek
Didn't the Missouri have nuclear tipped cruise missiles in her armorment?
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Hullo Tom.....I understood, that for her attendance with the 75th celebrations...she was armed with conventional weapons only
Conventional 16" projectiles were only for fun {-), however multi cell Harpoon and Cruise missiles <*< and four Rayathon Phalanx gatling guns >>:-( would be enough to deter any dingbat even from over the horizon.... Derek
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The old Leander's when fairly new used to carry nuclear depth charges for use against deep subs. Because below a certain depth conventional weapons were ineffective due to water pressure.
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Spain and the US have recently agreed a compensation deal over the Palomares incident. Apart from a lot of money changing hands, the US has agreed to clear many 1000's of tons of earth and other detritus from Spain back to the US for 'decontamination' Wonder why they waited 40 years?
Does anyone remember the protect and survive instructional films from the 50s/60s? How to build shelters in your homes? That had nothing to do with protection. Some bright spark in Whitehall realised that a country littered with millions of corpses would not be good for the health of those that did survive. SO why not invent a scheme that urged people to bury themselves?
Sounds remarkable now, but for somebody to be so callous and insular to come up with a scheme like that makes you sit and think what governments really think of their people.
Not really callous at all, such a scheme is simply logical. It is Government's task to govern, and that means at all times and under all conditions, and after a nuclear exchange the usual societal functions would cease to exist so such a scheme would reduce the burden on (any!) survivors. It is strange that this subject should arise here, and many (older) readers may remember the BBC film dealing with this subject which had its final scenes on a Christmas Day, The War Game <:( a 1965 drama made by our illustrious BBC, but considered by the then government to be too dangerous to broadcast until many years later . So with that bleak memory may I wish everyone a Peaceful and Joyous Christmas and good luck for 2016
Trevor
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Never mind atomic weapons, I've just been Nerfed to death by grandkids and old kids.
Jerry. In Oz.
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They had W48s where I was stationed in Germany in the 1980s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W48
http://www.brookings.edu/about/projects/archive/nucweapons/155mm
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I remember a few years ago the British Government declassified the footage about Nuclear survival ( the real one) that all military personnel were forced to watch in training. I was approached in the pub by a non military person who had believed all the government safety information about building a nuclear bunker in their garden and living underground for a few weeks then emerging after the radiation had 'dispersed'!
Oh we would all be safe and carry on to rebuild after a month he said, my Dad and I looked at each other in utter disbelief when we mentioned that it would be at least a couple of years before he could leave the bunker. He was shocked! His filter for his breathing system and his water supply were outside his bunker and had to be changed every four days!
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Little did they realise that tied up at the Loo, was a 4000 something tonne RN Frigate with nuclear tipped projectiles for her pop gun O0
Sorry to spoil a good dit but the RN 4.5" gun (Mk 6 or Mk 8 variety) never had anything but conventional HE rounds. In the Cold War era some RN ships carried the "600 lb" bomb which was a Nuclear Depth Charge variant of the WE177 bomb.
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Maybe there was a use of DU, depleted uranium, which is "slightly " radioactive. But then so is Perrier water too and Brazil nuts !!
DU was definitely used in smaller rounds as being heavier than lead and flammable when used as armour piercing is quite effective against tanks and maybe ships too..
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The vessel I referenced was the HMS Manchester [D95]......she with HMS Beaver and HMS Amazon accompanied the Illustrious to the Australian 75th Fleet review in 1986
During this political period, our Australian Labour Government decreed an embargo against any vessel with any reference to nuclear capability or power.....this is clearly distinct to when an earlier Australian Liberal Government welcomed the nuclear powered USS Enterprise to anchor in Sydney harbour
From this in 1986, I do not expect that the RN would have even suggested or admitted that any of her Naval vessels carried NT projectiles for her 4.5" MK8 mounting
Just reading now with the comment from boneash......apologies....I stand corrected .......yes DUT ......as used in the Falklands .... Derek
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NDB, 600lbs of instant sunshine!
Jerry.
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From this in 1986, I do not expect that the RN would have even suggested or admitted that any of her Naval vessels carried NT projectiles for her 4.5" MK8 mounting
Just reading now with the comment from boneash......apologies....I stand corrected .......yes DUT ......as used in the Falklands .... Derek
Just to be clear, the 4.5" Mk 8 had High Explosive, Starshell and Chaff operational rounds in the mid 80s plus AA Practice and Surface Practice rounds for exercise firings plus a ram round for ammunition handling and that was it. If "NT" is meant to be Nuclear Tipped, there was never any such animal.
Depleted Uranium rounds might have been an issue for a visit to Sydney if Manchester had had her Phalanx fit by then but because of the potential toxic effect on the environment rather than anything to do with nuclear weapons. Phalanx was fitted after the Falklands war to Type 42s but was too heavy for frigates like the Type 21s.
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I remember a few years ago the British Government declassified the footage about Nuclear survival ( the real one) that all military personnel were forced to watch in training. I was approached in the pub by a non military person who had believed all the government safety information about building a nuclear bunker in their garden and living underground for a few weeks then emerging after the radiation had 'dispersed'!
Oh we would all be safe and carry on to rebuild after a month he said, my Dad and I looked at each other in utter disbelief when we mentioned that it would be at least a couple of years before he could leave the bunker. He was shocked! His filter for his breathing system and his water supply were outside his bunker and had to be changed every four days!
On a similar parallel, in the 50's the Australian Army was screening training films of actual nuclear test explosions. These indicated that troops standing with their backs to the explosion would wait a couple of minutes for the blast to pass. Being at a "safe" distance, they would then turn around and could then occupy the ground from the bombed enemy.
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I remember a few years ago the British Government declassified the footage about Nuclear survival ( the real one) that all military personnel were forced to watch in training. I was approached in the pub by a non military person who had believed all the government safety information about building a nuclear bunker in their garden and living underground for a few weeks then emerging after the radiation had 'dispersed'!
Oh we would all be safe and carry on to rebuild after a month he said, my Dad and I looked at each other in utter disbelief when we mentioned that it would be at least a couple of years before he could leave the bunker. He was shocked! His filter for his breathing system and his water supply were outside his bunker and had to be changed every four days!
Reminds me of an episode of only fools and horses, when they calculated the number of batteries they would need to run the air purifier
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On a similar parallel, in the 50's the Australian Army was screening training films of actual nuclear test explosions. These indicated that troops standing with their backs to the explosion would wait a couple of minutes for the blast to pass. Being at a "safe" distance, they would then turn around and could then occupy the ground from the bombed enemy.
I guess to the military mind you are trying to ensure that your troops will do as ordered and recognise that any engagement has acceptable casualty levels. To the rest of us it doesn't sound quite so sensible.
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A Christmas Island veteran before me remembered being blown off the top of a 3 ton truck by the blast, despite being told that the blast wave would not get close to the island!
I recall wandering over ground zero in flip-flops only months after the final test, there being nothing to stop me or warn me of any residual danger. My sons still talk of my feet glowing in the dark however. Obviously, I am still here over 50 years later!
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A friend of mine participated in a study that went to the Bikini Atoll in 2008.
The mission was supported by Paul Allen, so their research ship was the M/Y Octopus.
Mike was one of the submarine dive crew for the Pagoo submersible.
One of the findings the researchers found was that, despite the relatively low levels of
radiation around the atoll, and lagoon, any foods grown on the atoll were heavily contaminated with cesium.
{:-{
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When on the RMAS NAV's ( 1993/99 ), carried most ammunition used in the MoD, the only nukes carried where the warheads for the prime weapon (Polaris and Triton) and a freight out to the Aegean sea for the RFA which composed of spent uranium tipped 30mm rounds (during the Kosovo War ).