Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Brian60 on February 08, 2016, 05:42:36 am
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I've read through many builds over the weekend and all seem to be built from kits.
Does anyone scratchbuild anymore? Can you honestly say you have built a model yourself when all you have done is assemble a kit of parts by following a set of instructions, instructions written by someone more knowledgeable?
Is it because people don't want to spend the time or have the patience to actually cut/sand/file fiddly bits out of raw stock and its so much easier to splurge the cash and buy ready made?
Is it because kits nowadays far exceed anything that the average bloke could ever hope to attain themselves out in the shed?
I'd be interested to know the answers.
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I would much rather scratch build than buy a kit.
Plenty of research helps make it that more accurate although scale plans can be a problem.
Built from scratch:-
Cervia from MB free plan including my first attempt at a fibreglass hull.
Wooden hulled NNS Dorina built from Vospers plans
H.M.A.S. Ararat apart from bought fibreglass hull (thanks Steve)
I had better not mention the Vosper A.S.R. that I am bending over in my photo. It has been an absolute disaster.
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These days it can be difficult to come up with plans for the latest and greatest boats.
A lot of copyrights are bandied about, and if you don't have an "IN", you won't get plans.
And I do so like the modern boats and ships.
All my boats are scratch built...
Nobody makes kits for these. Well maybe the springers, but I built that before kits.
The Japanese landing craft, and SDM tug, I had to do my own research, and draw my own plans.
And the second crane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC-oBNfY0w0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC-oBNfY0w0)
Oh, the crane barge for Manson.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=957675 (http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=957675)
I have to wonder what I left out,... %)
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I've been designing model aircraft and boat kits since 1972 and much prefer to go that route to building a model. Lacking inspiration at the time I bought two kits a while ago; both wood and both of US manufacture. While one was almost the perfect kit (Midwest Boothbay Lobster Boat - now no longer made) the other was an utter travesty and is still only halfway built for lack of enthusiasm (Dumas Lord Nelson Victory tug). For me there's far more satisfaction in turning a pile of wood into a model, and then fiddling around with all sorts of ideas for detailing e.g. I cut 1" from the handle of a wooden spoon yesterday to use as the plinth for a compass!
I don't have the skills of say Brian King or Jimmy Woods but I seem to learn something new every time I build a new model and my boats always seem to come out OK. Assembling someone else's design from a kit of parts - even if it's well-done - doesn't come close.
Dave M
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Please don't knock those of us who build kits! If I hadn't started building kits - designed by a certain member of this forum- I would never have had the confidence to build from plans - again drawn by that same member. I'm sure there are some people who will argue that if you don't start with the original shipyard drawings, its not scratch building!
It is in my opinion better to build something from a kit than to buy something ready to run, which is where the market seems to be going, but even that may be a way into the hobby for some..
I still occasionally will build a kit if the model I want is available, and I certainly buy lots of fittings as I know my limitations, and the limitations of my machinery.
I think we should welcome EVERYONE who wants to own and sail a model boat - however and whoever made it.
Barrie
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Please check out Stans Schutze build under warships and military.This model started life has kit model.On doing research it was found to some parts needed putting in the bin about 80 percent. To create a accurate model it Involved a lot of scratch building see pictures on post mentioned enjoy.
Stan
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Hi Brian
You say you've read build logs over the weekend and none of them were scratch builds, were they on this forum?
I've just updated this weekend on two scratch builds one by my Dad building a train ferry and me building HMS Protector- so don't worry, the art of model scratch building isn't dead! :-))
I'd just like to add that research takes time too, both models I've mentioned do not have commercial hulls available and getting pictures as well as plans takes time. The latest price of plans of warships from the National Maritime Museum now cost more than a kit!
My Dad loves scratch building, other than some hand railings, props and figures his last project HMS X1 was all hand made using lathes and carving by hand. In the long run it's cheaper to scratch build than to buy kits but remember that not everyone has all the skills to use some of machines so kits are the easiest answer to their problems.
I've built kits too and I must admit that they do need some experience and skill to get them right, any idiot can glue bits together but getting it right in the correct order requires patience too.
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I think we should welcome EVERYONE who wants to own and sail a model boat - however and whoever made it.
Barrie
:-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Ned
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Hi Barriew I still build kits and no doubt will do for a long time.I also like to build from plans. Kit builders have the option to change or upgrade parts of the kit but we have to remember this a personal choice and if you are happy with the finished kit model so be it.
Stan
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Please don't knock those of us who build kits!
I'm not knocking kits or the builders of them (apart from that horrible Dumas thing, that is!). For most they are a good way in to the hobby and I wouldn't have learned as much as I have without being commissioned to design and draw kits. My comments were made solely about my own personal approach and preferences. For me the jury is still out on Ready to Run "models"; try as I may they just seem like expensive toys from which you can learn very little about making and operating model boats.
DM
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For me the jury is still out on Ready to Run "models"; try as I may they just seem like expensive toys from which you can learn very little about making and operating model boats.
DM
Until the owner modifies them, they are indeed as described, expensive (sometimes) toys from which little is learned. But the lower end of the price range can be a fairly painless way in for somebody who fancies a boat to play with. OTOH I feel that anybody who spends several hundred pounds on a first foray into an unknown hobby is liable to be disappointed, because they will have bought an expensive toy that will become an expensive ornament..
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If it wasn't for the RTR Toys, my Springer would be redundant as a rescue boat. :P :P :P
Ned
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If it wasn't for the RTR Toys, my Springer would be redundant as a rescue boat. :P :P :P
Ned
Just so - and with a bit of luck some of them might decide that their very own Springer might be a good idea.
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I've read through many builds over the weekend and all seem to be built from kits.
Does anyone scratchbuild anymore? Can you honestly say you have built a model yourself when all you have done is assemble a kit of parts by following a set of instructions, instructions written by someone more knowledgeable?
Is it because people don't want to spend the time or have the patience to actually cut/sand/file fiddly bits out of raw stock and its so much easier to splurge the cash and buy ready made?
Is it because kits nowadays far exceed anything that the average bloke could ever hope to attain themselves out in the shed?
I'd be interested to know the answers.
As a new comer to this hobby I am quite staggered by your statements Brian60, and can only say that had it not been for kits available, I would never have got into building ( dolls houses) as a hobby, nor would I ever have considered ever building a model lifeboat which has come in a kit.
I look at my friends intricate model lifeboats that have featured on here, built from scratch and can only gaze in awe at his skills.
Since your comments I have looked through the forum and pages and threads and would say that the predominant number of builders build scratch models, unlike your statement saying that almost all are now kit builders, and as such your questions are very misleading and quite off putting.
I had a word with my friend about your comments this morning and he has told me to say, that even those who build scratch like to take the pressure off sometimes and build a kit that interests them and he is no exception.
There is absolutely no shame in "putting parts together" from a nice kit, and it is horses for courses.
You might not like kits, but there are plenty from what I see that do, and also even more highly skilled people on here who do scratch build.
And from what I see there are many who build both, much to their personal enjoyment.
Jim.
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BFSMP
Couldn't agree more.
As long as you have built it you will have a sense of pride in what you have achieved.
I build both but not many scratch building now due to time restraints.
Bob
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I don't think a scratchbuild can truly be called a scratchbuild if you haven't cast your own propellers, cut down your own trees and laminated your own plywood.
Only joking really ;), ..but when is a scratch build truly a scratch build?
Could you use a fibreglass hull and build the rest yourself and call it a scratchbuild?
Is it ok to call it a scratchbuild if I didn't hand wind the motors for the bow thrusters?
Where does it stop?
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Hi All
I have scratch build three boats in the last year after a number of years off the last one was in the 1980s.
This was a 24 inch tunnel with a OS 40 FSR.
With a step into the brushless and Lipo world I am back!!
The first was a 24 inch deep vee with a brushless outboard and 3S Lipo.
Second was a fibreglass deep vee 34 inch(hull from my old days) 3639-1100kv with a 3S Lipo.
Third was a Sea Hornet(original plans) with a few custom bits.
I am on my fourth a total scratch design based on the old Aerokits boats.
I have never built a kit boat!!
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Last active on the Forum about five months ago, what's happened to Bryan Young? He had some very firm opinions about kits and their builders!
DM
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I suspect there are more 'scratchbuilders' out there than many people think. A forum like this appears to be very popular but the number of active posters is very small compared with the circulation of the two main modelling magazines. Most model boaters simply don’t participate online although no doubt many are ‘lurkers’. Most of the articles in the magazines tend to relate to scratchbuilding of one sort or another.
I have always regarded myself as a scratchbuilder, but times change and my last three completed models have been kits, albeit for review purposes. My current project is essentially scratchbuild but it has been so long on the stocks that I have resorted to buying some fittings in an attempt to actually complete it! The extent to which a model has been scratchbuilt from ‘raw stock’ did use to matter when many modellers entered competitions but there is very little interest in scale competitions these days unlike in the 70s & 80s. So if you can save time and effort by purchasing fittings instead of making them, many modellers do find that to be an acceptable trade off as the end result in terms of what the model looks like is much the same.
A lot of people also dislike the idea of making their own hulls which I have personally never understood as it is missing half the fun! So a lot of models now feature commercial hulls and fittings with the bit in the middle being largely scratchbuilt. Probably less work involved than in some conventional kits in such cases.
As far as plans are concerned there are thousands out there, the Model Boats range has over 800 alone. However, building from original plans is not easy as they contain a huge amount of information that is irrelevant to the model maker which can make it difficult to extract what you need to build a model. Years ago there were quite a few people around with draughting skills who could produce modelmaking plans from builder’s originals but most of them are no longer around or not active. I built my Isle of Wight ferry Shanklin from original plans back in the 80’s but the plan you can buy from MyHobbyStore was converted to something more suitable for modelmakers by Dave Metcalf. Also, as Umi correctly points out, a lot of available modelling plans are of older vessels because shipyards and owners now jealously guard the copyright of plans of modern vessels. The days when the late Richard Webb could borrow the plans of the Gatcombe tug on a visit to the vessel and nip up the road to the local Kodak shop to have them copied are long gone!
So ultimately it just comes down to ‘whatever floats your boat’ and it will only matter how much work you have put into it, as opposed to taking the short cut purchasing route, should you wish to enter it into one of the dwindling number of competitions being held around the country.
Colin
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Last active on the Forum about five months ago, what's happened to Bryan Young? He had some very firm opinions about kits and their builders!
DM
Dave, PM sent.
Regards,
Ray.
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Hi all,
These two of my models were/are being built on commercially available fibreglass hulls, I build the upperworks etc and as many details as I can, but I buy paddlewheels/props, lifeboats etc. So not scratchbuilt, but I suppose elements of scratchbuilding - Semi-scratch?
Never really thought about it, but they keep me busy and give satisfaction (and the occasional bout of frustration!)
Clark
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As a new comer to this hobby I am quite staggered by your statements Brian60,
Jim.
No need to be. Its an honest statement and fact. You assemble a kit you do not scratchbuild it.
However the point I was trying to get across as the title suggest has model building died. The simple fact is to develop skills you have to be prepared to spend time and patience getting things wrong as well as right -this is how the human race learns. Scratchbuilding a part whatever it may be teaches you skills with tools and materials, gluing together a couple of parts from a box doesn't.
There was a time when I built kits, back when I was about 14. My early dips into boat building were on commercial grp hulls, but I sat and learned how to scratch build stuff. nowadays if I want a grp hull, I build a mould and laminate my own then scratchbuild.
I wasn't knocking those who build from kits, rather I was lamenting the demise of the requisite skills to knock something up with nothing but a desk of tools and a pile of material.
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This keeps coming up, like there is some massive gulf between those who put together Airfix/Revel plastic construction kits exactly as per the booklet enclosed, and those who create their deck planks from solid timber plus drill 3 holes in each of 200 brass strip 1/96 stanchions. Usually what is meant is they made the hull, which is not the hardest part. Most often 'scratch built' models have quite a lot of propriety fittings, propellers, and most of the internals.
Example: I built a Victorian torpedo ram, which although started with a fibreglass hull which has been highly modified in shape, almost everything you can see is fabricated due to unusual scale of 1/60. I did get 3D printed machine guns and etched stanchions so "Purists" will say it is not a scratch build.
Even so-called kits I have built are significantly modified with far more detail than included.
I don't really care. We all build to the best research info we can get and put as much detail in as our skills are comfortable with. Personally I love planking and detailing.
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Brian, you are probably quite correct in your assumption that in general more models (all modelling disciplines ) are ''assembled'' now rather than being built from raw materials, and that seems to be mostly due to younger folks desire for speedy gratification, though in very many cases they do not have older relatives living near them that often were the source for we older types inspiration and guidance. Modern schooling and the workplace do not help because they no longer instill the notion anyone can attempt complex activities without 'courses, ticks in boxes, safety assessment' and so on.
Surely though, the balance on this forum is not as one sided as your weekend browsing results suggest , there are so many scratch builds going on in the many sub-divisions, that I would have though the balance is around 50/50. For my own part, all my efforts are from plans or are scratch-builds, usually out of the head/scribble pad efforts, and I have 2 of these progressing (albeit slowly) within Mayhem.
I don't think model building has died, but you are right, there is no doubt that it's in decline, just take a look at 1950's Aeromodellers or model car or boat magazines, back in those days there wasn't an Idiotlantern in the corner of everyone's room that folk squandered the time staring at.
Trevor
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It's not just a question of modelling skills although I would agree that the number of top class modellers have indeed declined over the years, it's more the lack of education that concerns me. Many people appear to have no understanding of basic electricity, the difference between volts and amps, positive and negative, how to scale up and down, how to do simple geometry, use dividers and many other things that I took for granted by the time I left primary school. And a lot of these things have practical usefulness, I was regarded with amazement on a management course once when I demonstrated how to wire a domestic plug - nobody else had a clue. I belong to an owner's club forum for the car that I drive and some of the questions that regularly come up make me really worried that these people are in charge of a vehicle of which they have no understanding whatsoever. They simply have no conception of how things work and are totally lost when they go wrong. They cannot understand why you are not supposed to put a skinny space saver spare tyre on a front wheel as if mixing a normal wheel and tyre with a wheel which is two inches less in diameter and half as wide with a different tread pattern isn't going to affect the steering of over a ton of metal in some way.
Colin
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Well I started building Airfix kits as a lad, then went and played with the real thing and then came back to building kits, first the Perkasa then a Deans Marine kit and then a scratch build with fiberglass hull, then I have gone to the real deal with the building of an 8 foot aircraft carrier. Doing two one with a fiberglass hull and a full hull being make from blanks and frame. My build log for these is on here. (taken a break for work with the RBL Scotland) Will be back to the shed in a few days time when storms have passed over and the sun is out again.
The skill has come from reading and watching and doing work and making it work for me. It does not come easy, you have to work at it. Show are the best where you can put on displays along for people see the building/making of models; taking place and they can see first hand the results of the work. They too may start with a semi kit and work they way through. It does cost money to buy tools and equipment and also the need to read and take on board what has to to be done to achieve the end result.
The Young ones of today are not into this kind of work now but as they grow older they may take it up in later life as a good hobby.
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One route into scratchbuilding (for those with time enough) is kit building. It promotes confidence and skill learning. Then watching some excellent builds here leads to dipping ones toes into the deeper waters of a scratch build. What is almost certain is that the majority of builds never get published as build logs here for many reasons. I really do work at a snails pace and only when work and lately health allows.
I applaude all those who take the time to publish their builds (scratch, kit, refurbs) because they provide so much enjoyment and encouragement to the likes of me. My first scratch hull will start when I become time rich and retire ;) O0 and that procrastination is mainly because I lack all confidence about getting it right.
Dave
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Good point about reading Paul, you can learn so much that way but so many people seem not to want to bother. I would always recommend a new entrant to the hobby to get hold of a couple of good general books and read through them. It is much more effective than simply going online and asking how do I do this and that which often results in a response which might answer your specific question but gives you no real understanding of the underlying principles underlying it. For example, you can copy one of the excellent ACTion wiring diagrams without having the slightest understanding of why it works so you have actually learned nothing and cannot adapt it to a similar but modified setup.
Also, having done a bit of preliminary reading and research means that you can ask more intelligent questions with a greater likelihood of getting a helpful reply. The phrase 'God helps those who help themselves' doesn't just apply to the Deity and burglars.
Colin
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Has the art of model building died? No it hasn't. It isn't the same art as it was 20, 30, 40 years ago, but the skill and application is still there. Many modellers of past generations scratch built because they had no option; there was not the range of high quality hulls and kits available that we have today. I bet many of them would have snapped up a ready made hull if they could.
But that's not the point. The learning, the development of skill and the working through of problems is the same whatever source you start with. Just because a model is scratch built doesn't mean the builder is inherently more skilful or produces a better model than the builder of a kit. Consider one of Glynn Guest's simple models* which is scratch built from the ground up, possibly including the rudder, the prop shaft and tube, and compare that with a model of HMS Dreadnought from the Deans Marine kit. Which demands the greater skill, application, problem solving etc? I know which one appears more daunting to me. (raflaunches may wish to comment!) And different people favour different skills needed to complete a model; some are superb woodworkers, others wonderful miniature engineers, others love the painting, weathering and finishing, others want to conjour the most performance from the hull and machinery. Yes, I can build a hull - I've done it - but if my forte is detailing and painting I might choose to start from a good quality commercial hull and spend my time on the parts I enjoy the most. What is wrong with that?
Happy modelling - scratch or kit! :-))
* I am not intending to denigrate Glynn Guest, who has probably singlehandedly encouraged more folk into model boat building than all the kit manufacturers put together!
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I've read through many builds over the weekend and all seem to be built from kits.
Does anyone scratchbuild anymore? Can you honestly say you have built a model yourself when all you have done is assemble a kit of parts by following a set of instructions, instructions written by someone more knowledgeable?
Is it because people don't want to spend the time or have the patience to actually cut/sand/file fiddly bits out of raw stock and its so much easier to splurge the cash and buy ready made?
Is it because kits nowadays far exceed anything that the average bloke could ever hope to attain themselves out in the shed?
I'd be interested to know the
I know it's phrased as a question but what a load of condecending rubbish. Obviously you've not had to build some of the kits that are knocking about. The implication seems to be if you don't scratch build then you're not a proper model maker.
Most model boat kits aren't like your average tamiya static kit which fits together beautifully. The quality of the fit and finish is often poor and there's masses of rework bending fitting, filling and sanding to make something decent.. Certainly not "sticking a few bits together", in fact I see scratch building a an extension of the skills people gain building kits.
You also seem to be forgetting that building the thing is only part of the whole, you still have to fit out drive train, hook up the electrics and most importantly paint the thing, scratch built or no.
Not everyone is retired and has the time, money and workshop facilities to fully scratch build a grp hull, these are skills that people develop over many years. Some people enjoy the sailing part too , I see no shame in getting to that stage a little quicker.
I have a question back to you Brian, I spent a good part of last year building a Graupner moonraker kit, there are I would think several hundred hours getting it completed to a finish I was happy with, however it was from a kit. Does this make me less of a modeller than some one who has built for example something from a Glynn Guest plan but is scratch built?
IMO this is a hobby, it's purpose is enjoyment for the individual , we need more people involved not less and if kits and artr out there which help then that's got to be good.
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I wonder what my MotorFlote build would be classed as...it was built from styrene, some of it cnc cut for me, some of it cut from basic sheet. A lot of it was built and/or altered from that precious 'stuff' that we all keep just in case it comes in handy for something. I no longer have the tools, the equipment, or the space needed to even contemplate scratchbuilding anything any longer, plus having regular meetings with my good old friend Arther Ritis, limits me to what I can do nowadays.
But, despite a lot of swearing, and remaking several parts of it, I really enjoyed putting it together...it wasn't a kit as such, it wasn't scratchbuilt as such, it was a mix of the two.
Surely that's why we all took up this hobby...to enjoy it?
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I like to say it's not what we build or how we build them but as we all still seam to keep building them we are all getting the same thing out of them ENJOYMENT best thing I ever did.
Regards Howard.
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Oh!
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You assemble a kit you do not scratchbuild it.
I am sorry, but I have to disagree most strongly with that statement as to the point of "assembly". Surely one builds a kit just as one builds a scratch built model.
I have looked at the model of the fire tug Avenger that my friend was sent as a present by Metcalf Mouldings just before Mr Metcalf retired and there is a great deal of cutting and fitting to the model.......far from "assembling" a kit such as I did in my youth from Airfix or Revelle. And there is a great deal of thinking about what you are doing in order to cut, fit and build a model as complicated as that model is.
I feel that your comment about "assembling" kit would indeed upset, and possibly anger some people who I find make stunning models from kits.
One only has to look at the build of the Jan Tug boat to see that.
I am a person that lets the world go by and not take offence at trivial things in life but I do think that your comments about kit building were a little unfounded and uncalled for.
Jim.
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By coincidence the Comment page of the new Railway Modeller concerns the same situation in that hobby, where these days we " simply have to open the box and arrange the fantastic products on our baseboards - even these are available ready made........"; so it's not just boaters. I must admit that I find hull building very daunting, though I have a friend who seems to whip them up with no effort. Each to his own I suppose, as long as there is water and boaters to use it we'll continue.
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Building or assembling?
Brian, I know, has just acquired a laser cutter and
has cut out the frames for his new build.
I would say he has assembled his hull from the cut parts.
Scratch assembling is the new technique if you own a cnc or laser cutter.
Even a water jet cutter I may add. %% %% %% %%
Ned
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I know it's phrased as a question but what a load of condecending rubbish.
Funny that, especially as I don't recall ever seeing a post of any of your builds. You seem to comment on many topics but never post a photo, build log or anything.
Now that is condescending of me, also note I spelled it correctly.
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Please check out Stans Schutze build under warships and military.This model started life has kit model.On doing research it was found to some parts needed putting in the bin about 80 percent. To create a accurate model it Involved a lot of scratch building see pictures on post mentioned enjoy.
Stan
Stan
I'm in exactly the same situation with my current build - mainly because its an old kit and the material was not very good to start with I suspect. However it was cheap and gave me an opportunity to build a model that was not otherwise available.
http://www.thercmodelboatforum.com/t1235-polish-pilot-boat (http://www.thercmodelboatforum.com/t1235-polish-pilot-boat)
It is quite likely that my next model will be built from plans, but could equally be a kit if I find something I like - and can afford!!
Barrie
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Building or assembling?
Brian, I know, has just acquired a laser cutter and
has cut out the frames for his new build.
I would say he has assembled his hull from the cut parts.
Scratch assembling is the new technique if you own a cnc or laser cutter.
Even a water jet cutter I may add. %% %% %% %%
Ned
That is true Ned and to some extent it is like building a kit. But the skill here comes in being able to use new technology to draw or design the parts. The laser is nothing more than a expensive coping/vibrosaw, instead of a blade it uses a beam of light. But what it does do is allow hitherto unknown accuracy that I could never match with a saw or scalpel.
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Now that is condescending of me, also note I spelled it correctly.
It was only two days ago Sir that you were asking another question in a round about way and that was what to do about the sale of your property in this country and asking advice from members on here.
Now you are insulting members?
I am shocked!.
Jim.
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You are right there Brian,
The computer guided laser is
a darn sight more accurate than
the ageing shaky hand :-))
Ned
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It was only two days ago Sir that you were asking another question in a round about way and that was what to do about the sale of your property in this country and asking advice from members on here.
Now you are insulting members?
I am shocked!.
Jim.
I give as I receive. if people want to insult me, as you have done in two posts on here, then I reserve the right to insult back. Once again I will spell it out.
I posed a legitimate question, I can't post it many more ways for you to possibly understand, the art of skilled model making from scratch using tools and materials is dying out to the kits that are available. With it goes the knowledge of how to do certain things. Rather than answer reasonably not only 'ships' but yourself took it as a personal affront on yourself.
If you could not answer with anything other than perceived outrage, than you should not have commented at all. If you set about insulting someone you cannot do so with impunity in my world.
As to asking advice on selling a property, I did nothing of the kind. What I did do is lay out the audacity of some people. Would you go into a shop and say I want to buy that model kit, but I want 12% off the price because I want to make changes to it? No? so why should someone expect 8 grand of a selling price because they want to change things? You buy something for a set price, if you want to alter afterwards that is up to you, you do not ask the seller to pay for those changes for you - or maybe you do in your world?
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hi all
rather than turning this to a slanging match, we will get back on topic O0
If it were not for those folk who build from kits of all descriptions we would have far less manufacturers in the modelling field.
Especially in model boats.
As far as scratch building goes, that itself has leant itself to a new definition, due to the fact that there are a lot more products on the market today to help create moulds etc., cut things from wood / steel using a computer programme and also the new one 3D printing so its progress in the field of scratch building.
Last but not least about reading of how to do stuff on this forum there is a master class build where there are several scratch build and several semi-scratch built models to help the beginner but how many people actually go and look at those topics :-)
aye
John
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I wouldn't say scratch building is dying out, I for one have progressed into scratch building after first building three Deans kits and anybody who knows Deans kits would know you don't just assemble them, I learned a lot from these and progressed into what I call semi-scratch building because I use ready made hulls, but have advanced into making all my own fittings and casting, I may eventually take on a total scratch, and of course there are some amazing scratch builders right here on the forum. :-))
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Funny that, especially as I don't recall ever seeing a post of any of your builds. You seem to comment on many topics but never post a photo, build log or anything.
Now that is condescending of me, also note I spelled it correctly.
Hi Brian,
I have actually posted quite a few builds on here, but as there mainly gin palaces or subs I can understand that you've not seen them.
Just because some one disagrees with your views doesn't mean they're insulting you. I was merely giving this thinly veiled dig:
Can you honestly say you have built a model yourself when all you have done is assemble a kit of parts by following a set of instructions, instructions written by someone more knowledgeable?
the respect I felt it deserves. After all if I hadn't built my model it would still be a load of (poorly fitting parts) in a box in the loft.
The original question could have been asked without this, which (as you pointed out a lot of us build kits) was bound to rub a few the wrong way.
Regarding the house, I believe what you call "audacity of the buyer"most people know as "haggling" I believe it's been use the world over (by most of us in fact) for quite some time, last time I checked a seller could always decline the offer....
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It always worries me when someone decides their way is the only true way and all other routes to the same result must be unfulfilling, or even cheating in some way. Threads such as those always end up as a slanging match.
A hobby is something you enjoy and provides you with personal satisfaction and pride.
Something so worthwhile to you, that you do it again.
So you build models in a way that meets your needs and let others follow their own path to happiness.
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Does it matter if you build kits or scratch build the outcome is still the same a finished model that you are proud of. We have to remember that not every modeller builder has the skills to scratch build.My experience with kit models is some were along the line you may have make a new part or in my case rebuild parts of the kit.The outcome kit model with scratch built parts
Stan
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What is the "art of model building"? Is it the same as designing? Creating your own plans then building from your own materials? I think a lot has to do with life style and commitments and practical reasons. For example if you live in a flat with other people how will they react to the smell of glue/fiber glass/paint? We don't all have sheds or shed loads of time. Some of tools required to build from scratch are also expensive and where to store them if you have limited space?
Its also subject matter, for example I love freighters but find it very hard to find any in kit form that interest me. I'm struggling away with a Deans Liberty which I've done a lot of changes on as I wish to show it as a Greek tramp ship. I started in Sept 2014, just got round to painting the hull now. Its' an ancient kit I brought on E-Bay for just over £100, some bits were missing and I reckon I've spent more on paint and bits for it than I did on buying it! But sometimes I get home from work so tired I just can't face doing work on it. I'd say my masking off of the solid rail bulwarks was an art form in itself before I sprayed the deck. Wish I could post a picture but have no means of taking one, yep I don't even own a mobile phone....
Anyway like I said I like freighters, especially modern ones so my next build may well be a hull from Orion moldings and (gulp) I will try to do the rest myself? Or I could get that rather nice new Deans kit Mercandian President. I could never build my own hull or cast my own bits for the reasons I mentioned above. If I had the means and the time then yeah, I'd give it a go.
I have been to clubs and ponds with an ARTR and yes other older people have often looked down their nose at me, frankly I don't give a damn. I love my Graupner Sharnhorst, getting all the electronics in that crappy access was a bitch (just ask Shipmate 60!) I added loads of detail myself and found a way to stop the nasty wooden veneer used as decking from bubbling and splitting. Could I have found the time/space/tools to build one from scratch-not a chance.
Would I get more approval from the pond admirals if I turned up with a tupperware tub, stuck a motor in it and sprayed it black to resemble a barge? Probably, after all anything is better than "modeling by checkbook" (yeah I've had than sneered at me) Trouble is barges bore me as do the pond admirals, I'm just here to have fun and enjoy messing about with boats no matter how they are put together. Kids come up to me and ask me about the ship and I tell them about the Channel Dash and the battle of North Cape, they don't care how the model was built either.
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:-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Ned
Definitely yes.
The question is based on a false premise, namely everyone who takes up model boating, has the requisite skills to scratch build.
I know of people that for the life of them cannot read a plan, let alone model boat plans. Others have no engineering knowledge or equipment, be it lathe or simple drill to fabricate parts. The list goes on.
The fact that kits are far more prevalent and varied is testimony to their popularity.
What puts me off is the so called scratch builders, who use expensive equipment such as lathes and all manner of tools that are not readily available to all, budget wise and experience to use that equipment. and then make light of work required to build the model.
My definition of a scratch builder is one who builds from bits and pieces, adapts readily available bits and pieces, such as bullet cases for bollards, to produce a good looking representation of the original not an engineering masterpiece built by an engineer.
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Be it scratch built or "assembled" from a kit
(http://33.media.tumblr.com/71be9e3cdd241d7b671daf0e18cff603/tumblr_inline_nvk38c0o1E1rdztd3_500.gif)
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Surely we are modellers that is what we have chosen to do for relaxation, glory or self fulfilment, it matters not how we assemble our models or from what components. We use the skills we have to reach our personal goals. Personally my favourite mode of model making involves injection mounded plastic but I am in therapy. It is also sad that Brian has now lost the use of the title scratch builder as he now uses Chinese magic to produce his components ok2
I'll get me coat now I have come out as a plasy modeller.
BTW I follow the builds of members on here and really enjoy the skills shown :-))
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There is something perversely noble in the single minded, and out of all proportion, devotion to something that no one else is remotely interested in. Viva the shed dwelling hobbyist!
Nice Brandy this is %% O0
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I would say that within my span of experience, full scratchbuilding in model boating was always less common than either building from kits or using a semi kit e.g. a preformed hull.
I would also say that over time that the numbers are dwindling, those that still practice this craft are not in the flush of youth, and I think in the next decade or two there will be a much sharper decline.
Traditional craft skills aren't taught in schools, and even when I was at school back in the 1980's it wasn't taught very well, with more of an emphasis on design than acquiring competency with hand and power tools, and a reluctance to permit use of any machine tool without one on one supervision.
If you want to see a continuation of traditional skills and model construction, then really you need to think about mentoring some younger people, assuming you can find some interested enough in the first place.
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Does anyone scratchbuild anymore? If the term relates simply to making a model other than from a full kit of parts, then clearly many people think they do. It just depends on how (I can't use a perfectly good word here because its alternative meaning is anatomical, but it's an anagram of Alan) you want to be about the definition.
Can you honestly say you have built a model yourself when all you have done is assemble a kit of parts by following a set of instructions, instructions written by someone more knowledgeable? Look up the word "build" in any dictionary and you'll find parts and plans mentioned. "When all you have done...." encompasses a hell of a lot of different skills already.... and do house-builders simply 'assemble' houses?
Is it because people don't want to spend the time or have the patience to actually cut/sand/file fiddly bits out of raw stock and its so much easier to splurge the cash and buy ready made? A classic rhetorical question, and you've omitted kits altogether! If it weren't for those guys whose building skills start and end with a chequebook and pen then my workshop would be full to the roof with models. As for "raw stock" you'll have to define that with much more precision e.g. rough-sawn logs or planed straight edges or thicknessed and finish-sanded sheets of wood? With regard to 3D printers and CNC cutters, IMHO they are as valid a modelling tool as a scalpel or sanding block, and they take a lot longer to master.
Is it because kits nowadays far exceed anything that the average bloke could ever hope to attain themselves out in the shed? For every kit which falls within this definition I could show you another which falls a very long way short of it..... and how many "average" blokes do you know?
No - I don't believe that the art of modelling has yet died, but there does seem to be fewer and fewer people who possess the full set of traditional modelling skills. Perhaps it's a reflection of what is happening in the world as a whole i.e. traditional crafts being bulldozed by technology, but that's been the case since the start of the industrial revolution and it's not about to stop any time soon.
DM
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A jolly good analysis Inertia and I fully agree with your conclusion that in this country and much of the Western world, traditional 'hand'skills of most trades and crafts are fast disappearing because modern folk want cheap and fast, and in the market economy that has to come from countries that can mass produce with cheap labour, and that this trend has accelerated over the past 30 years or so. My eldest son who will soon be 44 was the only one out of 4 siblings to do any sort of practical metal or wood working at school, it had all ceased when his brothers were in their teens. The second-hand market was flooded with ex-school equipment 20 years ago, that's where mine came from!
Subculture's suggestion of mentoring really is the only way to keep modelling alive and so every time that we 'old farts' are at the pool or lake or flying field we should not huddle into some secretive scornful clique as many do, but to be open and helpful to any questions from by-standers of any age and offer encouragement for them to have a go, and have not only your latest credit card busting creation on display, but also some of old and simple craft whether built from a baulk of timber or from an injection moulded styrene kit to show.
With a foot well planted in both camps, where they've always been, I am planning my next winter's build of a working diorama of a Revell 7c sub, a Liberty ship and a Destroyer, both to Glyn Guest's drawings ( modded a bit). So it's all about having FUN with like minded folk, and not scoring points off each other in some perverse race to penury or ill health.
Trevor
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The title of this thread is - 'Has the art of model building died?' Patently it has not, judging by the success of this amazing website.
Perhaps, the questioner should have asked, 'Has the 'art' of scratch-building model boats died?' thereby avoiding the wrath of many who, like me, enjoy this challenging and enjoyable hobby for the pleasure it gives me and the thousands of visitors to my local park who enjoy my boats, whatever the building method.
In my small club I can say that scratch-builders exceed those who use other means.
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Well said Dave M and Nemo. Would anyone like to define what scratch built really means, without being 'Alan' as Dave nicely put it. If is just means 'made my own hull' then a dozen plywood parts cut out using a model boats magazine plan then stuck together to make a cabin cruiser is hardly rocket science, and well within the capabilities of almost everyone on this forum. Only a few basic hand tools required.
At risk of being shot down I will offer my definition.
The following do not count: Propellers, pro shafts, motors, ESC's, Rx & Tx, wiring, switches, batteries, navigation lights, smoke generators, bilge pumps, etc.
With what is left around 90% should be constructed from non propriety parts using sections shapes and other materials crafted using ingenuity and largely hand tools. 3D and laser cutting are both standard modern tools so are allowable. Parts can be adapted / reshaped from something else.
Frankly I have seen some highly modified ships, detailed lavishly way beyond what was supplied to the point where the original 'kit' is only partly represented. Maybe not a true 'scratch' but using true scratch skills.
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Amen Bob, that about sums it up for me.
Joe
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But I raise a question and that is, when does a kit become a semi scratch build model, and I found these pictures on a site that was entitled St Nectan, but looks nothing like the St Nectan that is produced by the company that produces the kit.
So is it a kit or is it scratch built to show a similarity to the model named, because it shows some amazing work whether kit or scratch built.
Jim.
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I seem to think there is - or was - a class of scale model competition described as "semi-kit". I also think I've seen it called "modified kit". The mind boggles! These various definitions must surely set down on some stone tablet somewhere in order that the judges had some guidance on what belonged where. Does anyone know where that might be? It would sure save a lot of bitching and bellyaching here!
STOP PRESS! I think I've found it, and the word "scratchbuilt" appears nowhere. Have a shufti here https://mpba.org.uk/PDF/scale_rules_item01.pdf (https://mpba.org.uk/PDF/scale_rules_item01.pdf)
DM
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The thread seems to have become a debate over what is or isn't considered scratchbuilt.
Here's one, who on here observes much scratchbuilding model marine activity by anyone under the age of say fifty?
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But I raise a question and that is, when does a kit become a semi scratch build model, and I found these pictures on a site that was entitled St Nectan, but looks nothing like the St Nectan that is produced by the company that produces the kit.
So is it a kit or is it scratch built to show a similarity to the model named, because it shows some amazing work whether kit or scratch built.
Jim.
The model you have shown is ST Red Falcon originally a Hull trawler and was lost whilst sailing from Fleetwood.
Ned
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The model you have shown is ST Red Falcon originally a Hull trawler and was lost whilst sailing from Fleetwood.
Ned
Thank you for that information Ned. I think I have seen a similar model of it in the museum at Fleetwood.
Jim.
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All these 'definitions' were only compiled to classify models in competitions to provide differing levels of playingfield. That was when a large number of modellers entered regional, national and international competitions and big shows with competition classes such as the Model Engineer Exhibition in days gone by. Now hardly anyone enters UK competitions and nobody represents the UK in the NAVIGA scale classes. So terms such as scratchbuilt, near scale, standoff scale, semi kit, modified kit etc. are all intrinsically meaningless except as a vague description of the type of model and of course as a means of claiming implicit 'one upmanship' on the part of those to whom this seems to matter!
To the question of whether traditional 'scratchbuilding' skills as traditionally understood are dying out I think the answer is yes as there are unquestionably less top class scale modellers now active than in days of yore. Does it matter and is the world the poorer for it? Well, I rather doubt it. As Dave M says, skills become redundant over time and are replaced with new ones to suit the world we live in. Sail training used to be considered pretty essential to produce competent seamen once, even well into the age of steam. These days its only benefit is probably only character building as it is totally irrelevant to the modern maritime scene. You don't need sail training experience to navigate a box boat from China to Harwich or to fight a type 45 destroyer. (in the latter case the ability to change a fuse might be more useful.) I doubt if there are many people around today who possess the carpentry skills of the builders of the old wooden walls but we don't build wooden walls anymore so those skills are largely obsolete. Similarly, in R/C modelling who now knows how to design and build a TX/RX combo from components that need both a HT and LT power supply - a skill which was once highly prized?
People's brains haven't changed and, while there is probably a greater bias towards consumerism these days, those of a more ingenious bent have plenty of opportunity to exercise and apply their talents in different situations to those in which many of us on this Forum were familiar in their youth. The world moves on and people need to keep pace. I still like the old stuff because it is that which gives me pleasure but a freely acknowledge the appeal of CAD, 3D printing and Arduino to those who wish to move forward. (But I do agree with Dave that it is easier to draw a line and cut it with a knife rather than fire up a CAD program, input the coordinates, transfer them to a CNC machine, set that up and watch it do the job instead!)
Colin
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The thread seems to have become a debate over what is or isn't considered scratchbuilt.
Here's one, who on here observes much scratchbuilding model marine activity by anyone under the age of say fifty?
I do! They may not be museum quality models most of the time, but I can confirm that three manned battleships, twelve square rigged sailing ships and a plethora of WWII vintage landing craft and merchant ships, that make up the heart of our displays are predominantly scratch built. Below 50? (its my birthday today and I still qualify....just :D !!) I may have to check the quantity of coffee over Horlicks that is consumed amongst our members, but know of at least four members not quite past that 'watershed' yet...
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Happy birthday to you sir.
Jim.
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I do! Below 50? (its my birthday today and I still qualify....just :D !!)
UBN
You do wear it well, dear boy!
Wait until you're only wearing it out...
I can't figure out how the hell I shall be entitled to a state pension next birthday when I'm still only 19. Maybe it's the strain of all this scratching.
Admiral B
As usual, I can't argue with a word you've said.
Dave M
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Thank you gentlemen :-))
I have cast my mind back to how many models I have built, modified, improved or ruined over the years. Most were scratch built, many looked like it too! Kits build included a fair number of HFM vac formed models, some of the best of their type ever produced in my opinion, plus not too many others. A half build Billing Mary Ann ended up with a re-built upper structure after I decided planking was not for me (1982, I have since planked one funnel, went well too!). I think the idea of being told what to do, even in a hobby, made me dig my heels in and just say no. i am quite capable of drawing up my own plans, a dying art also, however I have not done that for quite some years, and enjoy the free form building style of having little clue how the next but one stage will go, until well after I have got there..
I do see people scratch building, very often after they have cut their teeth on a number of kits. more so in a club environment, as there is still that 'Competitive' edge there ( Wrong word, but I am getting old!). A member with skills passes those skills on, consciously or subconsciously, to others just by doing, or showing his work. Everyone passes on at least one skill, I was more than pleased when a supposed 'silly old codger' showed me how to use the reflected image in a razor saw blade, to do 90 and 45 deg cuts in timber. NOT a silly old codger, don't prejudge, he also flew Halifax bombers during the war, so DONT PREJUDGE...don't do that any more..
So I think we all have at least one scratchbuild ( or semi-scratchbuild, or semi-kit, or whatever the latest term is...) in us, just some may not have quite gained their confidence yet..to them I say, go for it, whats the worst that could happen? The next one will be better :-))
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They cannot understand why you are not supposed to put a skinny space saver spare tyre on a front wheel as if mixing a normal wheel and tyre with a wheel which is two inches less in diameter and half as wide with a different tread pattern isn't going to affect the steering of over a ton of metal in some way.
Colin
Is this covered in the manual - and who do you think reads that, given the lack of interest most have, they seem to just want to get in and go.
My experience for the best part comes from the plastic fantastic brigade, the external of the 'KIT' is done for me, maybe a few additional embelishments to improve either the look/correctness/scale of the boat, all the internal changes are a Guess if you look at my boats - I live in awe at those that can make all the parts to make a scale vessel.
I am reasonably comfortable at making plastic card parts that look like a piece of kit on the boat - not great, but I have had a go, the radiojoe brocklesby, steve pickstock and stan's shultze are a invaluable source of how to do it, (I wish I could only just get it to look half as good), I am proud of the masts I did in brass for sovereign - just should have maybe made them in plasticard - but then would they with stand the stress of in use - lack of experience dictates (you just have to learn from your mistakes).
My main problem and it probably figures quite heavily with others of a similar age or set of commitments, is time and funds, it seems every time I pick up where I left off, something major happens - redundancy, illness, work commitments, changing jobs. so a kit may be easier for others who just want to get it done in as short time as possible, lack of tools or space may not afford them the luxury of countless tools and workspace.
Personally I'd love to buy all the tools and machines and start to build in wood, a hull, superstructure, fittings etc, and put a running gear in that actually works first time and every time - not a chance being the klutz I am.
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Of course, the Napoleonic prisoners of war built fabulous model boats using the bones leftover from their dinner.
Now, that's what you really can call scratch building!
Dave.
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I would say that within my span of experience, full scratchbuilding in model boating was always less common than either building from kits or using a semi kit e.g. a preformed hull.
I would also say that over time that the numbers are dwindling, those that still practice this craft are not in the flush of youth, and I think in the next decade or two there will be a much sharper decline.
Traditional craft skills aren't taught in schools, and even when I was at school back in the 1980's it wasn't taught very well, with more of an emphasis on design than acquiring competency with hand and power tools, and a reluctance to permit use of any machine tool without one on one supervision.
If you want to see a continuation of traditional skills and model construction, then really you need to think about mentoring some younger people, assuming you can find some interested enough in the first place.
Amen, my design technology education was underfunded and spasmodic. I think my school aspired to be a super cool accountant producer as my first CDT teacher left under a cloud having brought up the funding issue ad nauseum and the next one was better but again not supported in the way they should be. In the five years of my education there, I recall the foundry and forge equipment dissappear and the milling machine never used once.
The middle aged adults with grown up children will provide a source of fresh blood to the hobby, but I expect that as many will have come from non vocational jobs, they will not have the skills that many older modellers have, though naturally a proportion will have, and another proportion will see scratch building as a challenge.
Lets just get back to enjoying our hobby however we do it, read each others topics however we are realising our plans.
CALM DOWN DEAR, IT'S ONLY A HOBBY (despite being one of the bestest:O)
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I can see the appeal of scratch building your own craft but can also see the appeal of a kit. So far I have only made 1 kit (Springer tug) as I was lazy ;)
Mostly I buy second hand boats and convert them.
Currently building a WW2 merchantman based on a hull of a trawler I dropped. I consider it a scratch build as the origional hull was a 1/24 trawler which I modified to a 1/35 armed trawler and now after a small oops have had to put new started rebuilding into a 1/72 merchant/ convoy rescue all based on photos and drawings. No plans as such, just what is in my head. Also I like making most of the upperdeck fittings myself but know my limitations either in skills or manufacturing ability.
Oh and I am under 50!
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Just a moment.
If I'd been able to offer previous generations of model builders the internet and forums (and particularly this one) to share tricks, tips and skills, access to new techniques (CAD and 3d printing for two), access to new tools and materials, and all available at the click of a mouse, they'd have leapt at the opportunities.
Model building is in a golden age, for those that want it.
Andy
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Also don't forget about the "Yes I will take it up, model boating or whatever, when I retire".
Wrong, wrong, wrong, do it now.
When you retire, you may be physically unable, financially incapable, lacking in resources, including equipment, materials or space.
The saying never put off what can do today applies to the art of model building.
So in those instances yes, the art may be dead or dying but not the desire.
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Model building is in a golden age, for those that want it.
Andy
Andy
I have stolen this for my personal signature. I hope you don't mind.
Dave M
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I'm over 50, I havn't scratchbuilt completely (the cardboard boat is the only one), time, money, space, all are my enemies, as none of them will let me move on, when I retire I will probably start finishing off what I started, until the next calamity, as I said, it's nice to start now - but life gets in the way, sometimes retirement is the only time to start - for the few of us that fall into this category, lol
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I build my first warship in November 2010 having retired that April, given the amount of time I spend on them I wouldn't have attempted the sort of detailed models I do now while I was at work, I did the odd RC model tank, truck etc. when time allowed, so it doesn't surprise me that a lot or modelers are retired,
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I scratchbuild, and have done so for many years! Don't have the money, space, time or patience to make kits! :o
Only build small static ones though! Did a build log on here for the 1947 cargo liner Arabia recently!
Bob
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And very nice too :-)) :-))
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I would say that within my span of experience, full scratchbuilding in model boating was always less common than either building from kits or using a semi kit e.g. a preformed hull.
I would also say that over time that the numbers are dwindling, those that still practice this craft are not in the flush of youth, and I think in the next decade or two there will be a much sharper decline.
Traditional craft skills aren't taught in schools, and even when I was at school back in the 1980's it wasn't taught very well, with more of an emphasis on design than acquiring competency with hand and power tools, and a reluctance to permit use of any machine tool without one on one supervision.
If you want to see a continuation of traditional skills and model construction, then really you need to think about mentoring some younger people, assuming you can find some interested enough in the first place.
My reply was going to be so similar to this that it was easier to quote.........
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Springers Rule - OK? ;) :-)) ;) :-))
Now you're talking scratch! No sign of scratch redundancy here. O0
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I hope I'm not valuated/dismissed by my building from a kit.
I admire scratch builders, but I'm not there myself (yet?)
1. it's a matter of learning curve X persistence. I assume, one typically begins with kits and may be proceeds to scratch building
1b I suspect, only few start with scratch building nowadays
2. it's a matter of challenge X skills. My kit with no instructions, only drawings and pre-cut pieces, is a major challenge for my skills (as many have seen by my questions)
3. Most of all, the sense of personal achievement is in my mind the most important factor. How is it important, if it is attained through scratch building or by building from a kit?
Yes - if I ever finish - I will proudly and honestly say that I have built it. And honestly say that I got the parts from a shop. This hobby is very personal thing to me and I cannot relate with competitions for "best boat", if that is the topic of this discussion.
There are other newbies in the forum, too. So, maybe it's not "people" but individuals in different phases of the learning curve and with different ambitions.
I have found it most comforting and encouraging with the support of Mayhemers, and I have felt welcome with my kit project :-)
...now Somewhat disconcerted by this post.
So, here's my answer.
I've read through many builds over the weekend and all seem to be built from kits.
Does anyone scratchbuild anymore? Can you honestly say you have built a model yourself when all you have done is assemble a kit of parts by following a set of instructions, instructions written by someone more knowledgeable?
Is it because people don't want to spend the time or have the patience to actually cut/sand/file fiddly bits out of raw stock and its so much easier to splurge the cash and buy ready made?
Is it because kits nowadays far exceed anything that the average bloke could ever hope to attain themselves out in the shed?
I'd be interested to know the answers.
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I have found it most comforting and encouraging with the support of Mayhemers,
The nice thing about Mayhem is that everybody is welcome and appreciated Hande. On a good day we can even have open discussions like this and agree or disagree quite nicely.
Dave
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That is what I love about this hobby, there seems to be no real deep set nastiness. Perhaps I have been blessed by joining a very friendly club, but even this topic that has got heated at times has people who have later complimented one or more protagonists for their work.
Not to mention the sharing of information some of which has been asked and answered before and elsewhere on this forum.
No matter how we do our hobby, scrathc build, stick kits together, refurb second hand models, throw models in the air and stick the parts back together in a Dada'ist sculpture, do it, enjoy it and share it.
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HI I agree there is much honesty in building a model, salesman sell blue sky, but we do the real thing and there are not many of us left.
Any building is good building, many started from kits, it comes down to what is readily available. If you need all the bits together then a kit is great.
One of my early models was a scratch built hull and I found that the fittings kit for the Manufacturers kit was so cheap it was not worth trying to make my own.
regards Roy
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What annoys me the most with the so called "scratch " builders is the superior air adapted by some of (not all) these self made "EXPERTS" Then we have the "rivet counters" & the historical gang that are walking encyclopedia's of how, when, & where, what colour, and don't forget the launch date & day. Having seen some of their creations on this forum, lots can't even solder very well & worse most have an incorrect drive joint on their prop shafts, in case you don't agree shafts have to have TWO Cardan joints to work correctly. Who am I to say this , well I am a qualified automotive technician for over 50 years & have done anything from changing a light bulb to complete restorations costing $150,000.00 & up, mostly British Sports cars. I also finished my #197 & last MG engine last week. I took up model boats as a hobby about 5 years ago. I live in the middle of (Canada) nowhere as far as model boat clubs are concerned. All my help came from U/K, some bad but mostly good, Dave M. was the most helpful of all, answered all stupid questions with a note of sarcasm & also did ALL my wiring diagrams free. Well folks I don't build my kit boats for your satisfaction, I could not care less as long as they satisfy ME. If I had the time I probably could scratch build as well as a lot of other folk but I am 1000KM from the nearest ocean & I don't Easley have access to the recourses that that European model makers do. By all means help us to do it better but stop the criticism of people that don't do it your way, you will only succeed in driving people from the hobby. When I decided to start model boats as a hobby I laid out the necessary money for the tools I thought I needed to do things well, including a mill & lathe, however health got in the way & stopped me dead in my tracks for a time, I am much better now though. There are some great people on this forum, lets keep it that way & thank those that give of their time & Knowledge freely, sometimes with little respect. Remember you will always catch more flies with sugar than vinegar. Mick B. in far away Canada. {:-{ :D O0 >>:-(
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In defence of most rivet counters they just know elusive stuff and usually respond quite generously to our odd questions. How many people could say if the smallest circumference on the attack periscope of U570 was 3 and 29/32" at 5 and 1/4" from the top? Or say well when I sailed on those tugs they had this equipment ..... etc. I expect they are both scratch and kit builders/modders too.
.... and then there are the wise beings who master steam. I do not understand their hissing whispers {:-{
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I'm telling you.
Putting this together - with no instructions from the kit vendor:
- is a satisfying achievement
- required research
- required elbow grease
- required wit
- was very real - as real as scratch building - to me
Was certainly not just glueing some Airfix parts together (I started with Airfix long time ago - like so many others).
I just wanted to express a sentiment of pride, here.
Actually, I don't hear much disagreement on this thread - some unfortunately selected words, though.
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Hande don't be disconcerted by the original post. You built from a kit but go back and take a look at who has offered you support and suggestions on how to achieve things. I think you will find that it is me! Now count how many people including yourself have posted to your topic and compare it to how many people have just read your topic, You will find a huge discrepancy. If only those who read actually offered comment or help on a post how much better would things be?
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Go rivet counters, go! :-))
I have great respect for such commitment to a hobby.
I can relate, because I have tried to track the whereabouts of the original thing of my model.
From frozen Finland, it has to be done on the Net solely and I have not been able to count any rivets. But it is cool and it gives more depth to my model building hobby.
In defence of most rivet counters they just know elusive stuff and usually respond quite generously to our odd questions. How many people could say if the smallest circumference on the attack periscope of U570 was 3 and 29/32" at 5 and 1/4" from the top? Or say well when I sailed on those tugs they had this equipment ..... etc. I expect they are both scratch and kit builders/modders too.
.... and then there are the wise beings who master steam. I do not understand their hissing whispers {:-{
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Hi Hande, what is that picture?
Roy
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Sorry to quote myself - but to underline:
"Glueing together" an Airfix Bismark was a great challenge - to me.
I was praised and I felt a sentiment of pride.
That just wouldn't make me tick today.
Was certainly not just glueing some Airfix parts together (I started with Airfix long time ago - like so many others).
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Tug: based on Billing boats kit BB528 (Smit Nederland) - intending to convert (only minor modifications) to UREKA XIV, which is a later incarnation of Smit Nederlands sister ship, Smit Finland.
The photo is about the edge of the main deck. I am only going through an early phase of the learning curve.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53761.new#top
Hi Hande, what is that picture?
Roy
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Hi all, I have been re-reading previous contributions to this thread Bob K asked for a definition of scratch building. Going back to the late 90's I had to sort out the rules for awarding trophies and certificates for our model engineering society.
I was presented with a problem that our exhibition manager had put some kit origin models into categories which said 'scratchbuilt'.
I did have scorn placed upon model boats built from kits by 5 inch gauge live steam locomotive builders who assured me that they were scratch builders. I asked if they had made the boilers, No was the answer, so I said you are not really scratch builders then are you?
I put the problem to our judges (all well known at National level).
I said we have handed down trophies and do not want to abandom them, but we still have to reflect what the club members are building. I had a very constructive response from Keith Bragg, I am sure he will not mind me mentioning his name.
He said in place of scratch built substitute the words 'assembled or constructed by the builder'. This fits the bill very well. Scratch builders are catered for and recognized for their ability but many others are included.
However over the years as with the Model engineer exhibition, competition model entries are becoming fewer and sadly last year for our club exhibition I had to cancel the awards and trophy competition as there were so few entries it was embarrassing to ask judges to attend.
Did not make a blind bit of difference to the exhibition!
Visitors were amazed at the all the models on show (which was the main objective) and the big draw was to the road vehicles which are noisy, covered in flashing lights and exciting, all kit built, with the opportunity of driving one as well, and why not?
Some of the Meccano models we have on show can set you back the cost of a 2nd. hand car.
We must not lose sight of the pleasure of having a model of someting you like, if you have to buy it ready made and your enthusiasm is there then that is great.
Your peers will respect your abilities and the rest are not able to distinguish the differences anyway.
My earliest model yacht was designed from a 6 x 4 photo in a yachting magazine, sails well and earned a bronze medal much to my surprise at the M.E. exhibition in London.
My preferences now are in restoring model boats, even kit boats! Mainly for their owners. The amazing thing to me is how little they value your time.
For a scratch built model boat if you use ready cut wood for say planking the hull does that rule you out? And what about mixing your own paint?
Life is too short!
regards to all scratch and kit builders and all owners who would not be parted from their models.
Roy
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Hande don't be disconcerted by the original post. You built from a kit but go back and take a look at who has offered you support and suggestions on how to achieve things. I think you will find that it is me! Now count how many people including yourself have posted to your topic and compare it to how many people have just read your topic, You will find a huge discrepancy. If only those who read actually offered comment or help on a post how much better would things be?
> P/M
In effetti, I have paid attention to the great number of views of my build. I'm amazed! I'm not so sorry about the small number of responses. I have visited so many blogs myself, and refrained from comments as a courtesy. It's good that people only respond, when they have some substantial contribution to make. Having said that - I cannot refrain from thanking, which strictly speaking is not constructive in terms of model building. It's not called social media for nothing ok2
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I'm telling you.
Putting this together - with no instructions from the kit vendor:
- is a satisfying achievement
- required research
- required elbow grease
- required wit
- was very real - as real as scratch building - to me
Was certainly not just glueing some Airfix parts together (I started with Airfix long time ago - like so many others).
I just wanted to express a sentiment of pride, here.
Actually, I don't hear much disagreement on this thread - some unfortunately selected words, though.
They say ,a picture speaks a thousand words, but only if the language is correct.
Here am I thinking it is a photo of wallpaper and what has it got to do with model boating.
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Very nicely put Roy. We should not differentiate just the extremes of Airfix kit and plank on frame hull, as if there is nothing between to the point of showing contempt (original post). I have seen countless models in which high levels of personal skills and craft ingenuity abound that are not technically 100% hand crochured, yet have taken many months (or even years) to build.
Here is a relevant dilemma: Do I carry on with my latest project using rib/frame/planked method, or wait a few months when I have been informed a fibreglass hull for the ship will become available. I am quite capable of building a hull, but starting with an accurate glass one saves a lot of effort and allows me to scratch build everything else. Does that make me less skilled and worthy of contempt if I choose a ready made hull?
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Here is a relevant dilemma: Do I carry on with my latest project using rib/frame/planked method, or wait a few months when I have been informed a fibreglass hull for the ship will become available.
Bob
On a purely practical level (which I'm far better at than philosophy) it depends on how far you have got with the hull at the moment; whether or not you can continue in the meantime with other parts of the model without a finished hull; whether or not your information concerning the GRP hull is correct, and the likely quality and price of that hull as/when/if it comes to market. Only you can weigh up all those factors, but you notice I haven't included any nonsense about whether or not it can be considered as scratch-built.
If you don't care one way or t' other then b****r everyone else!
DM
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Hi Bob, carry on! Especially if you have already cut out the frames.
I was demonstrating building electronic circuits at one of our exhibitions about 1980 I think, I know my eyesight was better then!
Next to me was a good friend who had researched and obtained plans from the National maritime museum of a Harbour defence launch, he was building a (diagonal) plank on frame model, now in my possession.
With us was David Abbot (building a destroyer) who said he thought the HDML looked familiar.
Next day David stood in front of us and with a Ta Daaa unrolled the coming free plan for December Model Boats magazine of the HDML.
Friend Graham had to be stopped from smashing the hull he was making, it says a lot about some scratch builders in this instance. You have to accept that yours is not the only great mind at work, someone probably has built one of those before but at the end of the day you are building it for yourself, you will know what went into it.
My friend Graham died tragically at a very early age (44) and I bought the HDML from his estate, so I have a pre- Model Boats free plan model of the HDML. (eat dirt you plastic hull HDML modellers!). I had the satisfaction of getting the mechanicals to work properly though.
As I said before fellow modellers will know, to the rest it is irrelevant.
regards Roy
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Thank you Dave and Roy. I was just tying to make a point regarding the discussion. No, I have not started the woodwork yet, but have established a workable methodology for the unusual shape and have section profiles scaled up. The plug for the fibreglass version is a probable for September. The choice is do I wait until September, without seeing it, or lay the keel maybe next month. The time factor may well be the deciding issue, not influenced whether others may decry my skills as "fit for Airfix only" if I chose fibreglass.
Sorry, but post #1 really wound me up >>:-(
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As I have commented earlier, and Roy has subsequently confirmed, trying to define scratchbuilding is now an irrelevance given that there are very few competitions where the extent of the work put into the model matters for judging purposes.
This topic does however demonstrate that there seem to be a lot of people who are really hung up on the subject and keen to place themselves as high as possible in the (imaginary?) modelmaking 'pecking order'. It's just a hobby for heaven's sake. Simply do what you enjoy. You may indeed be able to turn up a brass stanchion for example but it isn't necessarily enjoyable to turn up a couple of hundred if you can buy something exactly the same for not too much money and use the time saved in making something more interesting.
At the risk of starting another argument, what I do like to see is people tackling unique projects so that they have produced something that no one else has built (HDML's excepted maybe!).
When attending shows you do very often see multiple examples of the same prototype being modelled, understandable if it is a kit of course, but often when not. The same old prototypes just seem to crop up again and again. Bismarck, Titanic, Flower Class Corvettes etc. etc. It's always a pleasure to chance upon something new and think, 'Well, I've never seen a model of THAT before.'
Going back to the HDML example, I can perhaps cap Roy's story. Back in the early 70s, Dave Sambrook, Steve Kirby and Tom Brown, all master modellers, got together, did the research and each made a lovely model of a Flower Class Corvette. A month or so after their completion Matchbox brought out their kit at the same scale - ouch!
Colin
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"Probable" sounds sufficiently woolly as to be unreliable. I'd say go for the POF and leave the GRP to someone else - probably. 8)
DM
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Just realised I must be a Scratch Builder because Glass Fibre makes me itch :P :P :P
Ned
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Could it be that the tale related by roycv about his friend wanting to smash up his 'unique' model and the one about Colin Bishop's friends being up 'upstaged' by a kit being produced gets to the nub of what it is that raises the ire in some folk, namely Ego. This definitely occurs in model aircraft circles and I have friends and aquaintances whose interests are varied and very different from model boats or planes and they have told of instances of snobbery by some purists in their particular field of interest, animals, models, vehicles, furniture even, who often appear to be scornful of anything that they consider to be 'inferior' : in which case it would seem to be quite a widespread trait, and is it more common in this country I wonder? I read various USA forums(?) forii(??) and folk are really inclusive and helpful, welcoming all newcomers, newbies questions, and applauding new ideas and everything from the rivet counters best dream to the 'I've put this together over the weekend and perhaps it shows' sort of thing!
Any thoughts of 'it's just an Airfix(other brands are available!) kit, then looking at the utterly magnificent efforts of kpnuts with his Citroen elsewhere in this Forum should soon dispel the idea that kits are easier , or the result lesser, than rolling your own.
Trevor
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Now count how many people including yourself have posted to your topic and compare it to how many people have just read your topic, You will find a huge discrepancy. If only those who read actually offered comment or help on a post how much better would things be?
That's true of all forums, there are many people who like looking at all aspects of the hobby but don't always have anything to add.
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' Could it be that the tale related by roycv about his friend wanting to smash up his 'unique' model and the one about Colin Bishop's friends being up 'upstaged' by a kit being produced gets to the nub of what it is that raises the ire in some folk, namely Ego.'
I think that is inevitable if you are in a competitive environment, it goes with the territory as you need to strive to be the best. But if you are not in a competitive environment it is a rather different matter. If you are made to feel inferior then it is because you have allowed yourself to be. If somebody chooses to look down on you because you have got the number of rivets wrong then that is their problem not yours. They are obviously obsessive and, in a sense, to be pitied by normal folk - the phrase 'get a life' springs to mind. But an awful lot of people do allow themselves to be unsettled by such people who will inevitably have their own hangups and insecurities.
At the moment I am making some fittings for the current project. They are not quite as good quality as I would have liked because I rather rushed them and could be improved upon if I could be bothered to do them again. However, it will be possible to mount them in such a way that it will be very hard to pick up the fact that they are not all they could be (faults hidden beneath an overhang for example). Do I feel guilty? No, because nobody will notice on the completed model (If I do ever complete it!) and I can move on to making something else.
Colin
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Hi I had a conversation with one well known judge now deceased who liked to see what modellers had done with kits as a basis and then just made them better.
We had one boating member who branched out to build a kit live steam lorry. It ran pefectly under RC hardly a whisp of steam and looked really good.
The judges were so impressed they asked me to transfer it to the scratch build competition as it was the best they had seen and desrved the top award.
It really does depend on what you have done and how far you have come from the get go and do not ignore reliability.
Like Colin has said it is the work content which is always apparent to a competition judge, (and usually to fellow modellers).
In our society at our annual exhibitions we have 2 major awards/trophies one is for best in show but primarily not from a kit and the otheri is the best model (anything) from a kit.
This will pit an Airfix kit against a Winstons 5 inch gauge live steam loco. The plastic aeroplanes have won as well!
Sometimes it is the sheer novelty of an item, there was one which had started out as a kite but now kit turned into a 1900's flyer.
An intrigueing one was a retired dragline crane driver who built a model of his crane, but all the controls were built into a chair so you could sit and drive the crane the full size way. He has passed on and since then I expect it has rotted in a garage and it will soon be thrown out.
That bit makes you think, as to what will happen to your pride and joy when you are gone. Almost nobody will know how they work so perhaps if your model is worth building it is worth wriiting a little about it and how it works and keep it with the model to be found when you are gone.
regards Roy
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As has been mentioned before, I don't have the experience to wind my own motors, design the electronics to operate or transmit/receive a signal, facilities to create my own batteries, cast or even machine a propeller and shaft or the joints, so I have no choice to buy these in.
Where am I going with this - in my eyes - scratch built means that for all intents and purposes, the hull superstructure, fittings etc. are made from stock materials - just like a fabricator would obtain from a supplier, so evergreen stock and preformed timber (i.e. for planks) are all acceptable, as is glues solder and brass section, its what they are turned into that makes it a wonder.
I'm not even a kit builder - I'm a kit converter, I may have made some bits that qualify as being scratch built - the masts on soveriegn, the box on the LCMIII (and as yet I do not know anyone who has converted the airfix 1/72 into a rc boat other than me - though may soon find that this is not the case, but I believe I am the first), little changes to other boats I have, and made them RC. when the cardboard boat is ever finished, it will still have an Airfix sea king on the stern - so won't be fully scratch built, will still have propriety rc equipment and drive train.
But in my eyes - I did that preceeds any idea that 'it's not correct' by rivet counters/purists etc, it may be laughed at, but who cares other than I like it, and that I appreiciate those that have the skills and equipment to produce their own hulls and fittings, however they turn out.
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Roy sums it all up in the post two above with the wording near the end "your pride and joy". Everything, no matter how you built it, is your pride and joy and you have every right to be proud of it regardless of what others may think. They do not know how skilled, or unskilled, you are or the fact that you are a concert pianist whereas they cannot play the piano.
If you want to get into serious arguments about detail take up model trains. Wrong truck behind that loco, and wrong paint for that era, wrong uniform for stationmaster, wrong food for the cat in Scotland - the list is endless and some people can actually get quite nasty about it all. I'll stick to boat kits and coping with my inabilities to get it right first time around!
John
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Oh, Buccaneer, I have just come in from playing with my trains!
Roy
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:o :o :o :o :o :o
My goodness someone just used that "word" and the mods missed it.
You know "normal" on Mayhem {-) {-) {-) {-)
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Rivet Counters......a far maligned term >>:-(....there are a number members in the model fraternity with in-depth knowledge and experience in certain specific areas
I think they deserve a pay rise :-)) in offering answers to our curious questions .....we can all learn & benefit by reading & understanding such responses..........so our thanks to these few.......Derek
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I don't disagree with you Derek, BUT & it is a big BUT when "they" treat us like imbecile's & Lord their supposed knowledge over us kit builders as if we are a sub species that is the place I draw the line. "YOU" don't know me, have never met me in most cases & worse have not a single clue as to my skill level either. I think Brian asked the question in good conscience & it did not offend me in any way. It sure stirred up a hornets nest though. I can think of at least ten companies in the U/K that still make model boat kits full time & the quality electronics for us also & I am sure happy they do. It tells me that there are lots of kit builders still enjoying the hobby. On that note let us all relax & get on with enjoying our hobby what ever it may be that satisfies us, most of us know when we have done a job to our satisfaction & feel chuffed about it. Mick B.
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Rivet Counters......a far maligned term >>:-( ....there are a number members in the model fraternity with in-depth knowledge and experience in certain specific areas
I think they deserve a pay rise :-)) in offering answers to our curious questions .....we can all learn & benefit by reading & understanding such responses..........so our thanks to these few.......Derek
I kind of agree, It's good that people have taken the time to thoroughly research whatever it is, but some of these "experts" are just downright rude.
It is possible to make constructive criticism without being offensive, a concept which sadly some of these self appointed experts do not seem to understand.
I'm a self confessed kit basher. I enjoy what I do and to me that's the important part. I build models to relax & take my mind off the trials of life in general.
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Sometimes it's hard to say exactly what you mean in text and it just comes across a bit abrupt. Often the same thought expessed orally just come across more politely because we pick up on tone, volume, pauses and facial expressions. We have probably all pressed send and then had to edit.
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True enough Essex, I am sure many of the forum members that have helped me along the way were scratch builders. However what upsets us is the superior airs some adapt often in a rude way. It is not very nice & is no help to the hobby in any shape or form & costs us converts to our hobby. You will find it though right across the spectrum so it is not unique to model boat building. Mick B.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o
Just an aside, the question was maybe intended to refer to model boats and scratch building in general but that is not what was asked. "........Model building died".
Our hobby is but one facet of model building and no way is model building dead. New kits are released each day. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
A example for the other thread on here, correct use of English language. %% %% %% {-) {-) {-)
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Does spending over 4 years designing, making the parts and fittings and then building them to produce a model ship count as 'scratch-building'? Then, yes, I have scratch built a boat! I HAD to....no-one else produced a kit of it and I wanted a model of it for myself. The fact that it has now turned INTO a kit for others to enjoy should not be derided.
By the definition some have given on here to 'scratch-building', the owners of Deans Marine, Model Slipway and all the other small kit manufacturers must all be scratch builders - because, in my view, a decent kit cannot be produced without first, effectively, scratch-building it!!!
Carl
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Hi Carl
You have of course done all that a scratch builder would do and have then gone on to pre solve many problems that your kit builders would have otherwise encountered. No mean task indeed :-)) It was an education to see just what a struggle kit manufacturing actually is.
Dave
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Surely building what is effectively a master for a kit goes beyond what night be termed 'scratchbuilding' as all the components have to be designed for production line replication. You are not just building a one off where errors might be corrected on an ad hoc basis so that they will go unnoticed.
Colin
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Hi Carl, definitely beyond the call of duty! All kits must start with a scratch build first.
May we know which model boat that might be?
regards Roy
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De gustibus non est disputandum.
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Ohi........................... O0 O0 O0
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I think scratchbuilding is an 'old' word that originated from times when preformed parts were not available and when the motor came out of some other machine and was modified to fit.
Nowadays I see a scratchbuilder as someone who builds something that is not a kit and uses bought parts as well as self made parts.
Has model building died? NO WAY!.... Look at the number of online model parts available, look at the number of modelling magazines you can subscribe to, and look at the number of clubs available to join. When these things start to become hard to find THATS when you can say model building has died, but until then whether you are a scratchbuilder, kit basher or modifier, a rivet counter or a beginner I say hats off to all of you as we are all part of what keeps modelling ALIVE! U2
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U2,
Agreed. O0 O0
All one has to do is look at our Armour modelling cousins, some who are also members on here building boats as well. :-)) :-))
Also on here we also have Aircraft, Trucks and so it goes on.