Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: Edmund on March 05, 2016, 07:10:10 pm
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I've been wanting to build a warship for some time. Usually I'm scratch building my model ships but the main problem with model warships is that there are some very good kits and semi kits out there, especially of the well-known ones. So why re-invent something?
Which comes round to the point - I acquired a slightly started semi-kit of HMS Intrepid not so long ago and have just begun to build.
It was a bit of a mess. Holes drilled for shafts, bulkheads ill fitted. I scrapped the lot and returned to the basic hull which was otherwise in good condition.
Why Intrepid? Well it's a big model and there is all sorts of potential for it to do things! Landing craft in the stern, helicopters on the decks, opportunities to have all sorts of scenes going on on the decks, vehicles as well. And then as I have seen elsewhere motorise and radio-control those landing craft and have the dock flooding as well and the stern door dropping down. Ambition knows no bounds with modern electronics we could light the ship and have the davits working as well. And also I was given the fantastic privilege many years ago to spend a couple of weeks on her at sea.
So a small start of this ambitious project has been made. Sitek shafts and props fitted, a water-tight bulkhead fitted across the hull and the beginnings of the dock. The plywood has been waterproofed and aim is a pump that fills the bilge and sides of the hull at the stern with about 2 litres of water - that is I work out 2000 scale tons of water. Intrepid used I believe just over 4000, but this dock is shorter than the original and if one floats at a slightly lower water line and has a slightly bows up configuration I think this will work.
So I've never built submarine, but maybe this will be the one!
So hoping for loads of advice from folks out there. I've built a train ferry with a raising bow visor before but nothing quite this complicated....
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Given the non scale effect of water on a scale hull, is 2litres enough to do the job allowing you to float craft in and out? I am just thinking now before you get too far into the project and are left half in half out. I think that if it works like you hope, it will be a marvellous spectacle, even better than those rescue ships with separate RIBs you see sometimes.
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Wishing you luck on this one Edmund - we know you have the skills and patience, so we'll just sit quietly in the background and monitor your progress. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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The wife is out, and so the domestically installed test tank has been put to good use. Surprisingly Intrepid fits! The Edwardians made baths properly!
13kg of lead sheet and lead acid battery brings her down to her water line. Something is right because the original ship weighed in at almost 12,500 tons. Every kilogram at this scale works out as 1000 tons. She is a big old lady.
So the test - flood the dock and see if you could drive a landing craft in and out. Well the dock walls are not installed yet, so no control. A bit alarming - Titanic in the bath. It floods and keeps on going - so clearly the 2 litres is going to the job. The depth of water will be able to be controlled by flooding the chamber to the correct amount and retaining some buoyancy. At the moment without the dock walls it just keeps on going. Of course the dock provides some of the flooding weight as well. Flooded it must take in another in another 2kg of water. It is certainly satisfying to know that there plenty of ballast space in the flooding chamber.
So now to get on with the plans for the mechanics - motors, servos, pumps etc. This is the really complicated bit. How to effectively and easily control all the different functions of this complex model. Quite apart from twin props and rudder, we need to be able to anchor, flood the dock, lower the stern door, and then control two landing craft to motor in and out under their own remote control. All this as well as the usual lighting and navigation lights. Lowering the davit held landing craft would be nice as well, but all surely possible in such a large hull.
But all ideas and prior experience would be really welcome from forum members - I look forward to hearing from folks who've tried some of these things before as well or those who've just thought some of these problems through!!!
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Very dynamic. I look forward to seeing the methods you use and the dock working.
:-))
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It looks a very interesting build Edmund so I'll tag along quietly :}
Dave
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I do know of one that flooded the rear dock by moving ballast.
A great chunk of lead on a long lead screw turned by a geared motor.
It worked well on flooding but cant remember how to completely drain the dock.
Possibly a slight camber on the dock floor.
Bob
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I do know of one that flooded the rear dock by moving ballast.
A great chunk of lead on a long lead screw turned by a geared motor.
It worked well on flooding but cant remember how to completely drain the dock.
Possibly a slight camber on the dock floor.
Bob
There is a good six inches between prop shafts and a fair height under the dock floor and this would be a system that would work. I was wondering about it. As for the dock, it will need a drain in the floor. The rear gate was held in a closed position while the dock was flooded and emptied, I remember from the time when as a teenager I was able to spend time on her and had the run of her during various exercises. There is a drain from port to starboard across the dock floor about half way along the dock with a slight slope into it fore and aft. I shall make it free draining/flooding to the outside through the hull. The stern door won't be water tight but you couldn't rely on that to empty the dock.
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The TV series Supermodels did a 1/48 HMS Fearless with a floodable dock. If you can find that series somewhere, try Youtube, it may help you, even to the mechanism for raising and lowering the dock gate.
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The TV series Supermodels did a 1/48 HMS Fearless with a floodable dock. If you can find that series somewhere, try Youtube, it may help you, even to the mechanism for raising and lowering the dock gate.
Thank you for that - I shall look it out - I like my models big but that is quite ridiculous! Twice the size makes eight times the weight. My 13kg would become near enough 100kg. The landing craft would be easier to build though! They are quite a feat of miniature modelling - to get to work with RC at least.
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Hi Edmund , I am looking at getting a hull myself and i was thinking of pumping water in to lower the
well deck but from what i have heard the ballest railway is a better way to do it on scale models , i have also draw a nice way of lowering and raising the rear dock door . Good luck with your build.
Best Regards Dave ok2
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Hi Dave,
With the bulkhead in place I am sort of committed to the water ballast approach, but should it not work then I could revert to the ballast railway. My intention with this model is to work the mechanics out first before getting on to superstructure and detailing, so rebuilding is perfectly possible because one really has to be sure that it's going to work.
I'd be interested in your drawing for the stern door mechanics because that really is my next bit. Below is the door I've made and incorporated with it is a few ounces of lead so it can't float. Needs cleaning up a bit. So my thoughts so far had been a gravity system.
So if you can post your drawing I'd be really interested...
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Hi Edmund , have a look at MODELWARSHIPS UK ,web site lots of builds of intrepid and fearless, these are the Gents who run Glasgow model warship weekend , hope this helps,
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Hi Edmund , have a look at MODELWARSHIPS UK ,web site lots of builds of intrepid and fearless, these are the Gents who run Glasgow model warship weekend , hope this helps,
I know there's lots of information on their website - it looks as though it might be really interesting. Problem is I have tried to join for the last four years on and off and get no response - just one email in that time saying an activation email will be sent at some stage - I've been waiting a long time!!
Anyone know a way of becoming a member? Message me privately - don't make it a forum thing - thanks!
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PM sent
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I think the 1/48 version ended up at about 11 ft long and was ballasted at the water's edge using bags of shingle. Needless to say they needed a trailer.
For flooding and draining the dock they used a cordless screwdriver switched by radio to drive one of those pumps you can buy to stick on the end of an electric drill. Most plumbing was 15mm copper pipe.
They approached propulsion in a novel way in that they used flexible drive shafts of the type you can get for drills instead of a straight propshaft.
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Link to youtube of the episodes about the building of the 48th scale Fearless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdG6yUea7fM
I notice that the 3rd episode has details of the pumps and rear door etc.
It is a huge build - and a huge model. I think 96th scale is big enough for me!
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Hi Edmond , I forgot to say i have also heard the model on TV would not go down with water so they faked it .And if you watch the programme it looks about right.
Dave
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In the tiller flat, tiller wires and control wires fitted. Now this is going to be the hidden bit, as the tiller flat is going to have to be waterproofed and sealed. In case it has to be opened the dock floor will be fitted with silicon sealer and it will be able to be levered off if necessary. Two control wires run through aluminium tubes through to the main hold through the water ballast tank to the rudder servo.
The two vertical pillars are the drain pipes for the dock which is to be filled and emptied through the side to side gulley drain. You only see the forward part of the gulley attached to the dock floor, and its only been pushed into position at the moment - which explains the gaps visible.
The waterproof separation between dock and ballast tanks is important, and I will need to see that once built the ballast tanks hold at least 2 litres of water. All the curves of the stern of the hull make calculations of volume rather difficult. Another bath test at that part of the build. Then there will be an overflow hole for the ballast tanks into the dock, just in case there is some sort of failure of the ballast tank water pump that mean that it doesn't stop! Ballast water is straight from the pond!
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If I was fitting out the steering compartment I would use clevis clips on to the tiller arm and certainly beef up the connection between tillers.
Bob
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Do you mean like this wor Bob
:} :} :} :} :} :-))
john
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Heavy duty stuff! I was going for flexibility and the spring wire approach has served me well in the past. But I think you're right Bob, so I'll think it through again.
Issue on Intrepid is the very small size of the tiller flat and the need for the control rods to pass through the water ballast tanks. I think I shall turn the tiller arms upside down to lower the holes for the clevis clips and use clevises that can be bolted onto 1mm or so piano wires to retain the flexibility needed to get through to the main hold where the servo will be. Two push rods to keep the whole system tight.
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Hi Edmund
If you are looking for flexibility on a push/push system try the plastic snakes as used in aircraft or Bowden cables. Alternatively use a pull/pull system with plastic coated metal wires as used in fishing traces. You can get adapters to use these with clevises. These closed loop systems are used on quite large models and are very effective, they can even go round corners if you use pulleys.
Jim
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for that - never knew they existed - they'll be just the thing!
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A little more work over the weekend. The dock door has been attached by its hinge to the stern with its control rod that runs through to the main hold to raise and lower it. The movement is light enough for a standard servo to work it.
The flight deck is cut to shape - it will lift off to give access to the motors and to the dock.
LED lighting is also installed in the dock area.
Next is the anchor winch. The chain and windlasses on the deck will be fixed. The mechanics will all be under the deck. The chain attached to the anchor moves freely, and the anchor has enough weight to start its progress. A geared motor will be attached to a large deep cotton reel that holds about 4 metres of chain, more than enough to anchor in our shallow pond. The motor will be able to slip so that when the anchor reaches the hawse pipe it won't break the chain.
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Great stuff Edmund.keep us updated
Dave :-))
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Does filling the cavity with water to the required level and then pouring it into a measured container not allow you to calculate the volume, the length of the profile and its thickness and any profiles and vertical skin then is added as these are easily calculated.
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Does filling the cavity with water to the required level and then pouring it into a measured container not allow you to calculate the volume, the length of the profile and its thickness and any profiles and vertical skin then is added as these are easily calculated.
Absolutely! Archimedes' eureka moment! I had calculated that 2 litres would be required to flood the dock, but having built the dock with all its complex curves it is very difficult to judge what its volume was. So I poured a 2 litre lemonade bottle of water into the ballast tank and hey presto it all disappears into the tank no problem. In fact it seemed to fill the tank to just over the floor of the dock, so the full ballast tank volume would probably be about three litres.
Now I need to filll the tank with the ship floating and see exactly what amount of water will flood the dock to the right level. Hopefully if the level in the ballast tank is higher than the dock level water, one can put an overflow in to prevent overfilling the ballast tank. If the level is lower I might need some buoyancy added to the ballast tank in the form of polystyrene foam to decrease its volume. Otherwise there is the danger of becoming a submarine!
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After consideration I decided to have a second ballast tank at the bow and pump water between them instead of pumping from the pond. There are perhaps two advantages to this. First that some of the ballast of the Intrepid can be dumped in the pond before return home, making transport a little easier. Second one won't need as much ballast transferred into the tanks as there will be a fulcrum effect between bow and stern. Bow goes up and stern gows down. So another bath test and see just what is needed. I have installed two 12volt acquired from China fish tank pumps. They only pump in one direction but are submersable if needed, but I discover that as they are of impeller type it means that when not active you can pump water straight throuh them. So one at each end of the connecting pipe.
So two litres of water in the forward ballast tank, and a couple of large 12v batteries for ballast. All nicely trimmed. Then pump for approximately one minute and the dock drops gently into the water with it filling through the drain holes while the bow rises correspondingly. Trimming is going to have to be carefully done. Stop pumping but the dock still fills gently. So the amount of ballast needed to lower the dock enough to flood it seems to be around about 1 litre of water.
Rudders are now fitted with clevises and flexible bike brake cables through to the main hold. I'll get a phptograph once I have fitted the servos in place.
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Edmund....not dampening your thoughts %)....and displaceable water ballast can be a great advantage :-))
One point for consideration is the need is to use water baffles in the tank...this will greatly assist in a large volume of water being thrown from one side of a partially full/empty tank in any violent >>:-( manner...which can cause temporary instability
Derek
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Quite right Derek!
I thought a bath sponge in the wide bit of the forward ballast tank would dampen the movement of the water, if that is the right word! The rear ballast tank doesn't need the baffle as the ship shouldn't be on the move if this one is full of water and then the dock also acts as a sort of baffle to prevent the water sloshing around.
It's the anchor that's taxing my mind at the moment. Winding in is easy but it is the paying out without tangling that is more of a problem. All is ok while the weight of the anchor is on the chain but as soon as it hits the floor of the workshop the chain doesn't have enough weight to keep paying out..... What to do?
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The anchor..... this has been a headache! It will be necessary to have an operating anchor that holds the ship in some way while assault operations happen from the stern, with dock flooding and landing craft setting off so I have tried a variety of self stopping winches etc with a mixed bag of results.
The main issue is tangled chain and not feeding through the hawse pipe effectively. But sometimes it is the simplest solution that is the best.
Apologies for the mucky interior of the ship in the photo - work in progress and this is the hidden bits that no one is ever meant to see!! But it shows a solution which is seeming to work. Anyway it has been dropping and raising an anchor and chain to the workshop floor all morning without any problems.
The winch is a 3mm rod which goes into a short brass tube in the bow as a bearing. There is 2 metres of chain - more than enough for our pond which is hardly more that 60 cm deep. The 3mm rod is long enough to mean that the geared motor that powers it is the main hold of the ship so that maintenance is easy. A short brass strap holds the motor in place. The geared motor 1:60 gearing is attached to the rod with one of those rubber couplings that will slip if too much load is applied - such as anchor reaching hawse pipe and not being switched off, or caught on the bottom and not releasing. The chain is attached to the rod with a bit of electrical insulating tape which again can slip if lots of load is applied. And the whole thing can be withdrawn from under the deck by undoing one screw. A servo operating two micro switches will operate the anchor by RC.
So I've been sending it up and down and even when it is only the weight of the chain taking the anchor out it seems to work without any tangles. It does mean the anchor has to be lowered rather than let go, but at this small scale the anchor was not going to go easily by itself. As for the winches visible on the deck - they will be static.
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Hullo Edmund............just thinking outside the model square
Real anchors are generally disconnected from the windlass clutch & free fall [however under some sort of overspeed brake] to the bottom.........to raise the anchor the clutch is re-engaged & the anchor slowly hauled in
You could consider modifying your anchor system to free fall via the disengaged windlass & having it as a single direction hauling in function
There are two reasons why in real life they function as above.....with the principal consideration being to get the anchor onto the seabed surface as quickly as possible to stabilise the position of the vessel.....this too is absolutely critical in an application such as the type of model vessel in your build....... Derek
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How about a drive feed mechanism mounted right next to the hawse pipe and run from the same motor as the 3mm rod?
If two rubber tyred wheels are set just far enough apart that the chain is squeezed gently between them as they rotate then they would feed the chain in and out at the same time as the winch turns causing no sag or flops. Providing the drive to the wheels and cogs joining the whees together are the same size a simple plate gearbox could be made and no extra motors or servos need be fitted.
The mechanism could be made from Maccano wheels and cogs mounted in brass/aluminium plate carcasses.
The schematic shows:
1 Non specified hull profile with hawse pipe, winch rod and feed wheels.
1a shows suggested use of four meccano pullies with rubber O ring tyres to grip chain that passes through gap between the four tyres.
2 shows the feed wheels in a simple plate carcass whose inner face could folow the shape of the inside hull.
2a and 3a show the feed wheels on their shafts with the gearbox at the other end. The winch shaft is not shown but you have that already
3 Shows the gear box that drives the wheels from the same motor as the winch shaft using three equal sized cogs and one small spur sheel to span the gap between two of them.
4 shows the cogs set in a simple carcass. The carcasses would not be difficult to make as the wheels and cogs would share common centers when marking out.
Just a thought.
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I watched mighty ships some time ago and they showed a US navy ship searching for the wreck of a French ship given to the US in the American war of independence, carrying divers etc and searching predominetly for the bell.
In it they showed how they were centring the vessel so it didn't move, a 3 point anchorage port forward anchor dropped first at one point and then they repositioned to drop the starboard forward anchor and then reversed to drop the stern anchor, this meant they dropped a massive amount of chain but it held the vessel in a static position, in this case you would have to reverse it, the port and starboard anchors would have to come off the stern and then drop the forward anchor.
Otherwise wont she spin around any dropped anchor. Isnt the whole point that the chain holds the ship as that weighs more than the anchor, initially the weight of the anchor is the driving force to the bottom, then as the vessel reverses to pay out the chain this acts as the holding mechanism?.
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Hi this link may help. We had this conversation about raising and lowering anchors a while ago and there were a few threads on here showing various ways of doing this. After a search this is the only link/thread I can find at the moment. I do know there are several others.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7172.0.html
John
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Thanks for all the ideas here guys. Lots of food for thought.
Anchoring in a full scale ship does involve coming to an absolute stop, paying out the anchor and then gently reversing to let out more chain. Then generally after stopping letting out the chain, to carry on going astern to see that the anchor is not going to drag. The speed that the anchor hits the bottom is not important so, having brought the model ship to a stand still, one can pay out the chain until the anchor's on the ground and then reverse gently to pay out more chain.
I'd checked the links about working anchors and there were some good ideas in those which I had considered.
Ian, I like your drawings, but thinking it through further there might not be the need for an anchor winch as well. Why not let the chain drop into a chain locker after passing through the motorised rubber rollers. Only one needs to be powered, the other can be sprung against it, gently, to again allow for slippage should the chain catch or the anchor reach the hawse pipe.
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Hi Edmund
The main downfall really is that on a free falling anchor we rely on the weight of the anchor and gravity to draw the chain through the Hawser pipe for the initial start and at 1.96 scale there isn't much weight in the anchor - even it its made from pure lead. The other drawback (if we were using scale chain is the actual size of it for its strength as well). This is a problem I had a few year ago when I was trying to make working anchors for the Type 42 - I abandoned the idea due to the fact that I couldn't get enough weight in the anchors to draw the chain. The other problem was that the scale chain at 1:96 was pretty weak and it tended to snap - if you tugged onto it with too much force - the links would part and judging by the approximate weight your model may be when ballasted up, she will put a fair strain on the chain. Do you really need to anchor the vessel during docking procedures? Surely on a calm day the model wont drift too far away and a good skipper will be able to keep his model under control while operations are under way. Just some thoughts.
John
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The main problem is as you say that at 1:96 scale even on a large warship like is the anchor is very small. Mine is a scale anchor and probably an overscale chain, and yet most of the solutions for worjing anchors are looking at much larger scales.
I'm hoping that my solution might work. It would be great to be able to hold Intrepid still on an anchor while the landing craft are operated by a separate transmitter, and not have to worry about whether the mother ship is floating off down the pond!
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You also need to bear in mind that it isn't so much the anchor that holds a ship in place but the weight of the chain on the sea floor which provides the 'elasticity' to damp out jerking by catenary effect. The anchor anchors the chain rather than the ship. Both anchors and chain weigh a lot less underwater than they do on the surface which doesn't help matters.
Also, anchors need to 'set' in the sea floor by driving their flukes in, partly by weight and partly by the ship backing up. Whilst the size of a model anchor is scaled down, the nature of the 'sea bed' isn't so on a model it is more likely to drag unless it catches in something from which it might be hard to detach it!
So even if you can get the anchor on a model to drop properly it it is still likely to have problems in holding the boat.
Colin
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Lots of weed in our pond! Alredy growing up fast! A big problem but I'm sure the anchor will be hooking on to it!
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'Lots of weed in our pond! Alredy growing up fast! A big problem but I'm sure the anchor will be hooking on to it!'
And when you press the button to raise the anchor you submerge the ship instead!
Colin
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I'm wondering if the HMS Intrepid can lead our assault on the weed problem in our pond, pulling it up plant by plant from the bottom with its anchor!
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Hello
I used this winch .
http://www.dahmen.de/cat9166.html
john
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That's very neat isn't it? Very nice! I like the video!
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If anchoring is a major problem, and an absolute must, :} there is an extreme way of doing it, you build a submarine chamber both at the front and the rear, hidden under the deck, (the actual anchor chain is just for show and operates with the lowering of the following), in the chamber which rises to above the water line - obviously - a pulley system pays out a chain of suitable strength with a 5 kilo scales weight attached, being the same at both the bow and stern, it fixes the vessel in a relatively static zone, being hidden within the ship the weight is already under water and is lowered to the bottom with none the wiser :}.
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That is something I had considered as well! A hidden but effective system straight through the bottom of the boat! But there is something nice about seeing the anchor moving on its chain from a hawse pipe....
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So here we go with a little detail on the hull. All the vents and pipes and drains from the flight deck. Also the gangways along either side of the flight deck. Fibre glass hulk turning into the beginnings of a warship.
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Well it feels like a long time since I've posted anything or done anything for that matter! Work in Italy and a holiday in Prague, where there were some fascinating paddle steamers ( but that's another story or post).
But I've been back a couple of days and done a little painting to the hull and finally she begins to look like a ship of the grey funnel line.
Coaming done round the main hatch as well but as yet no superstructure or details. Next I think is the fitting of the servos and controls inside as they are all arrived now....
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Considering the complexity of the build you have made remarkable progress. Shes coming along well.
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Hi Edmund , Did you do the final ballast tests to make sure the dock floods.
Dave ok2
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I decided on a system that pumps water from end to end of the ship. 2 litres of water in the bow compartment for ballast. It in fact tests showed it only needed about half of that in the stern ballast tanks to fully flood the stern dock. The dock has flooding ports through the bottom of the hull to enable it in turn to fill faster. My memory of Intrepid filling her dock was that the stern door remained closed until the dock was full of water and then the tail gate was lowered and the landing craft could come and go.
The advantage of pumping from one end to the other is that as the bow gets lighter the stern gets heavier, which should mean less pumping. Also at the end of the day, the ballast can be dumped making a slightly lighter model to take home with you.
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My memory of Intrepid filling her dock was that the stern door remained closed until the dock was full of water and then the tail gate was lowered and the landing craft could come and go.
That's something I've never really thought about but it makes perfect sense. That way, any running seas are held at bay by the tailgate for as long as possible pending departure of the landing craft.
Thanks for the info Edmund. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Hi Edmund , That was what i thinking of ( ballest transfer) please keep me updated.
Best Regards Dave :}
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A little more work on the decks! A few of the deck fittings in place and busy casting a few more out of resin. The body of the crane is carved out of bass-wood with the windows simply painted on. No railings as yet.
Lighting is going to be important. There is a flashing warning light on the crane, lights around the flight deck and warning lights when the tail gate lowers, as well as lights lighting the dock.
And a Wessex helicopter has landed on the flight deck! I remember being taken for a flight in one of these from the flight deck of Intrepid. It was so noisy you could hear nothing and it vibrated and shook. The crew left the main door wide open and the pilot took pleasure in flying us around Intrepid tipping over so far I almost felt I'd fall right out of the aircraft.
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The crew left the main door wide open and the pilot took pleasure in flying us around Intrepid tipping over so far I almost felt I'd fall right out of the aircraft.
I was given the same treatment in my ships Wasp helicopter - tipped it almost on the 90 deg angle then dropped like a stone, "attacking" the ship. :o
Loved it at the time....
Your build is coming along at a pace by the way. :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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Amen. It amazes me how quick some people are at building complex models like this.
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Amen. It amazes me how quick some people are at building complex models like this.
It's so easy to waste time watching TV and doing other rubbish. Escape to the workshop instead! Though this weekend I've got to go hiking and camping in the Cairngorms.
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So tonight installed a very nifty device from Action Electronics , a mixer for motors and rudder. I've never used one before but I love it. Very clever bit of kit. I've always used tank controls before on twin props
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I couldn't get mine to work with the other gubbins in my destroyer. I am sure its something I have done so will play with it on another model. The principle of a mixer/ESC system is great.
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It does say it won't work with certain digital radio controls. I spent a long time setting it up with lots of mistakes! Both props going clockwise ( one forwards and one backwards therefore ) Then getting props right but rudder operating in opposite direction. Can't reverse servos easily on this cheap tx so ended up crossing the rudder wires to the servo horns to get it right. It now appears to work properly. Can't wait to see how it might go on the water. I have chosen the full reversing the inner prop on full rudder option.
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Some progress has been made. How the day job gets in the way! Especially when it means being away at weekends as well sometimes!
So superstructure is started. How complicated this ship is. I've never attempted a ship where one needs plan profile and section of the drawings all at the same time to be sure of how the structure goes together. Even then one needs to refer to photographs to be absolutely sure.
And then like all warships there is so much to detail. It looks complex now but there is still the vents, grills and air conditioning systems, railings and the whole complex davit systems for ship's boats and landing craft. The davit system is something I'm wanting to have working so that the landing craft on the davits can be let down to the water. They won't detach from the downfalls, but it should look impressive. There is plenty of room in the superstructure for all the mechanics and electronics to make it happen. I have a plan - more on this anon.
The superstructure is a mixture of thin 2mm ply decks and thin plastic sheet. Lightness is the key. Never be tempted to make the topsides of a ship too heavy. Too many models disappoint because of stability problems.
A note about the photos - the workshop has rather harsh down-lighters and they pick up all sorts of blemishes and shine in the corners of the structure. It will look better in natural light. However the photos are also good in that they show up all the problems - much better than my eyes - is this an age thing? Certainly I don't notice things until I look at the photos and say to myself - better go back and paint that again!
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:-)) Absolutely A1. Great job, she looks great.
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- much better than my eyes - is this an age thing?
Short answer - Yes.
As for the model, she is coming together nicely - lots of detail beginning to show. Great looking work on the fo'c'sle. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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She is coming together Edmund, take one step at a time, because considering the big picture can be daunting I find.
We have two Guys in our Club here in Western Australia, starting to build Fearless and Intrepid in 1/72nd scale, and they will find your build posts very helpful.
Keep up the good work Sir!
Nige
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Hi Edmund,
This is my L10 in need of some TLC and serious dust removal but still looks great on the water.
Enjoy the build..
C-3PO
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This is my L10 in need of some TLC and serious dust removal
Looking fabulous! I'm envious! I only hope Intrepid looks as good one day.
She's a later refit I see - 1990's? One gets to look at so many pictures that one notes every little changed fitting and detail!
Do you have working features such as dock and davits?
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starting to build Fearless and Intrepid in 1/72nd scale
Hi Nige,
1/72 is quite colossal, but has the advantage of the availability of Airfix kits for the helicopters and vehicles and sailors. Seriously impressive though and I hope they are going to get everything to work on board. As you say the big picture can be very daunting - there is a lot of ship to work on. At the moment I'm concentrating on just a small area, the bridge with its complex mezzanine deck and foremast.
I'd say wheelhouse, but from what I remember the ship's wheel was a small thing in a windowless room in the bowels of the ship somewhere with a very hypnotic gyro-compass repeater in front of it. I remember getting yelled at down a brass voice tube by the officer of the watch for steering in the wrong direction!
As for build posts, I think with something where the structure is so complex such as these warships, one almost needs to see some detailed pictures to understand how the structure works. The plans can be very difficult to follow. I have trawled through books, the net and films to understand how the ship looks. I discovered the ability to print off still pictures from film via my computer - very useful to catch unusual angles and views.
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Edmund,
Well if I was to take a close up shot you may not be quite so envious and of course the serious DUST!! There are some issues and bit's hanging off! I'll dig out some close up shots of the bridge - I did not build this so can't claim that one. Despite all that it still looks the business even when close up on the water. The dock does work but currently again needs TLC as it also turns the boat into a submarine!
C-3PO
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Edmund,
Some pics which may/may not help!
C-3PO
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Great pictures, and they'll be a big help especially in bridge area which is very difficult. Despite being a sister to Intrepid, Fearless had notable differences. The cranes for example were of lattice construction, whereas on Intrepid (thankfully) they were plated - much easier to make from plastic card and thin plywood!
I like your crew members. Do you know anything about them? Are they 1/96th scale or are they 00 railway figures? A friend sailing a Type 45 frigate on Sunday, 1/96th scale as this is, has a crew of H0 or 00 figures and they are all just six-footers and look fine. I'd like to find some suitable crew though on a ship like this most would be on the flight deck I suspect.
Do you have landing craft in the dock?
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Edmund,
Not sure about figures - close up may help. Landing craft x4 attached to boat not in dock
C-3PO
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Well here's my take on the upper conning position of the bridge. A difficult bit of modelling for my clumsy fingers.
Included are the foremast, the seacat director deck and the pelorus and the foremast navigation lights. The wires emerging are for the bridge lights (red for night vision) and the nav lights. The intention is to look like a Christmas tree at night time, though lights can add interest in day time as well. At the moment I have only routed cables for the most difficult lights. Still to do in this area, railings of course and all the wire work and aerials of the mast.
Second photo shows the bridge glued in position in pride of place on the lower bridge chart house.
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Hi Edmund , Have you tested the rear dock flooding yet, {:-{
Best Regards Dave
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Checked in the domestic test tank (it's a large cast iron Edwardian type) and that proved that just under 2 litres of water pumped from front to back flooded the dock effectively. I'm using cheap 12v aquarium pumps which only pump in one direction but you can pump water back through them if that makes sense. Reverse the current and the other pump kicks in and thevdock empties again.
How's your build progressing?
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Getting there! Funnels, masts and ventilator grills - yes they were red in one colour picture from early in her career. The detail makes a ship but it gets slower and slower. One looks forward to fitting more than 400 individual stanchions for railing and working davits for the side slung landing craft. The large landing craft for the dock are started, and a little casting session produced a quick series of simple small landing craft for the davits, based on a wooden plug I'd carved.
One nice touch is a series of warning signs from BECC stuck on certain lockers and on the pillars for the radars and the seacat launchers. They certainly add atmosphere...
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By the way, looking at the photos I see the cross trees look all squint. I've checked in real life and they are straight and they say the camera never lies!!
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they say the camera never lies!!
No - the camera just bends the truth {-)
The model is looking very busy now - nice work Edmund :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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Finally the sun shines after weeks of rain. I couldn't resist taking Intrepid down to the pond and giving her a sea trial.
There is obviously a lot of work still to do, but it was good to see if she floats the right way up and whether the engines work as they should.
The result, a very stable ship, and the geared motors are just right for the propellers. Plenty of power but not too much. The Action Electronics motor mixer helped the manoeuvrability with good sharp steering though perhaps a little violent with the reversing inside propeller. Problems with weed however. It's creeping up everywhere in the pond - I'll be having to use paddle steamers for the rest of the summer!
I haven't connected the anchor and stern door and pumps yet, but the sea trials give confidence that the boat is going to perform well on the water.
So a few more railings attached when I got home, but its the davits that are the big issue that I'm thinking about how I'm going to tackle.
No photos on the pond - but next time....
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You have made excellent progress Edmund. When I read your comments about C3PO's model I thought you were ages away from completion, but you have got her a good distance towards finishing by the look of things :-))
I can't wait to see her on the water (I am sure you can't wait either!)
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Been a long time again since I posted but railings are such a bore! Almost 10 metres in length of railings. I quickly decided against the individual stanchions as they weren't strong enough and went for the photo-etched Scalelink ones which are a little heavy in outline but are strong enough for the knocks and bumps of the pond.
Also as promised the working davits for the landing craft. As you can see the main davits are in position and cables will go through into the superstructure to a winch that will raise and lower them to the water line. A stop switch worked by one of the davits will prevent the winch over-winding in too much. I had hoped that the landing craft would be launched in sequence but that was too much electronics. I think we will have forward and then aft landing craft launching.
Photos this time were done with a flash. Hard shadows in the background. We need to get Intrepid out into the open air!
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Wow! I cannot wait to see this beautiful model sailing. She looks amazing Edmund. Do you use the same cables that raise and lower the craft to raise and lower the davits or are they separatly activated?????
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Copying the davits of the original ship, I realised that one can make them purely gravity activated. As the winch pays out the weight of the landing craft takes the davit to the outboard position. There is a lug on the davit that prevents it going beyond its outboard position. The landing craft has a sling that can't go through the pulley at the end of the davit.
When the landing craft is raised, the davit will stay in the outboard position by gravity until the sling reaches the pulley and then the davit is raised into the inboard position. As it reaches its final position the davit touches a micro switch that shuts off the winch.
One cable does the whole job, though that is of course doubled per landing craft. All the landing craft are going to be operated by one winch - they will all lower at the same time though only one micro switch will control all of them. I think I shall use elastic thread so there is no danger of over winding the winch and damaging the davits.
Lot of progress today, with all the davits in place, the air conditioning vents in place, and aerials. I'll try and get a couple of photographs up of the latest - it really is coming together. I just have the two landing craft in the stern to complete and some tidying up of the paint work, and the electronics and lighting wired up.
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And two photos of the davits. A landing craft temporarily hangs from one davit....
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That is an elegant way to do it and saves having lots of wiring and controls etc.
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Almost there, though there is more detailing that can be done, but the landing craft are all in the davits with a winch to operate them and the stern door is linked up to a servo. It does look so much better in day light!
To do: the switch for the pumps, the lighting to be completed, and the large landing craft for the stern dock. I also discovered that the davits have a tendency to go into the stowed position as they haul the landing craft up despite their weight so a spring will be needed on them to keep them out.
Sea trials and ballasting on Sunday. Hope for some good weather......
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hi Edmond, really hope the trials go well,
Dave :-))
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Likewise, shes going to look a bobby dazzler on the water :}
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Have you tried a lump of lead in the landing craft to negate the tendency for the davit to roll back?
Ned
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I did try lead but it didn't do the job. I have for the moment made little springs from piano wire which exert a little pressure on the davits. Two problems - one is the power of the spring is enough to push back the davits from the inboard position against the motor. The second that the main problem seems to be the thread used for the falls which is catching at certain points.
Here is a short video just taken. All works nicely until winding up where half way up alarming things happen as the davit flicks back out.... Click the link should work....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDp8HUsYTuI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Hm yes, a bit jerky. Are your pulleys free enough? Is there any gap between the pulleys and the inside of the davits where the string could temporarily jam? Is the angle of entry and exit through the pulley right or is it causing a drag as it passes through to cause the juddering?
Grr, you might have to go for separate davit actuation after all {:-{
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I've replaced the thread with a plastic thread and it now moves freely. It also doesn't seem to need the springs any more. However i need a better connection between the geared motor and the winch shaft as that is slipping now. Sea trials tomorrow if the weather is fine and we'll sort the mechanical details after that...
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Great to hear that the solution was that easy. I hope your trials go well tomorrow.
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Video of the new improved davits - much smoother. Click link to see....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-Vebcv3KoQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
No springs or weights, just cable like fishing line which runs smoothly through the ends of the davits.
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And a video of her sailing the Swannie Ponds this morning. A bit more ballast required, hence the large battery in the dock later on in the film, but around 3 and a half minutes in you can see the davits operating. Thanks to my wife who operated the paddle steamer camera ship!
Click on link to view:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhdYPyG50E0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Excellent videos Edmund :-))...the raising and lowering of the ships boats on the water don't display that little jerkiness seen in the first video
The vessel also confirms to be highly manoeuvrable ................. Derek
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Well here is a little addition to the fleet. Two landing craft for the Intrepid. Just 27cm long, and 7cm wide made of plywood balsa and plastic card, it was as much as I could do to squeeze rudder servo rudder, motor from cannibalised servo, battery pack and servo to operate bow door into each of them. They float a little deep.
So first attempt on the water and one of them was a bit sticky on the rudder. Each uses three channels from a six channel set so the idea is that you operate each of them with one hand and one stick, but they both look the same and I can't work our which one I'm controlling!!
So a very short video, and hopefully another one soon when I have it all worked out a little better! Click on the link to enjoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAROf-W0NRc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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They look quite good actually.
You could put a flag on each of them, say using the international flags for L and R, to assist with manoeuvres - just a thought. :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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Good stuff Edmond :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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Edmund may I complement you on a fantastic build, she looks the dogs doo daa,s can I ask you where you got the Wessex helicopter from as I have been looking for one in 1/96 scale and can only find them in 1/72 or 1/48 scale or is it scratch built?.
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Hi,
Thanks for the compliments!
Would that the Wessex were scratch built but that is way beyond my capabilities as a modeller! No, they are 1:100 scale Italeri models whijh I obtained on that well known auction site from a model shop in Germany - tom-modellbau.de . A quick search on Google revealed them on Ebay though I couldn't find them directly. They are quite expensive for one but the same postage is charged for any quantity which soon brings them below £10. They are diecast metal, though not too heavy, undercarriage is a rather delicate plastic as are the rotors. Nice models however! They say "Rescue" on them, which I just ignore.
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:-))Thanks for the info this intrepid is looking like a future project. I was considering one of the san antonio lpds but they are way to expensive to import from
the states.
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Intrepid and Fearless are a great subject to model. They always attract loads of interest at shows and when they are on the water. At 1:96 scale it is possible quite easily to make everything work. Thus davits, ballast tanks, anchor, lights, landing craft are all operational on this model. It would be possible to spin the blades of helicopters as well if you want. It's a large model but still carriable and it fits in an estate car!
Unfortunately I'm not sure how active Sirmar is now. I did communicate with Barry there but never managed to buy any fittings from him. Fortunately I had bought a hull and the majority of the fittings together on Ebay. Things that were not present I made myself or cast copies. It is not a craft that has huge amounts of complex fittings. In this Falklands form four sea cat launchers and 2 bofors are perhaps the most difficult parts if you had to make things and those parts are available elsewhere. Scalewarships website was a useful source of grills and vents and fore deck fittings.
I notice there is a guy in Gibraltar who makes a 1/72 hull for Intrepid/ Fearless. Now there would be a project - 8ft 6 inches in length......
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Hi Edmond,How did you go on with sinking the dock.
Regards Dave :-))
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2 litres of water is enough to trim the stern down from the forward ballast tank. My problem has been knowing whether the pumps are running or not as they operate silently. It takes around two minutes to trim the boat. Other issue has been getting enough power to the larger servos for rudder and stern door. The 5v supply does seem to work them, though it is fine for the smaller servos and relay box that operates the twin props with the rudders. I'm going to have a little rethink about how this all works.
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why not wire an LED to the upper works that then lets you know when they are operating, say disguised near the helicopter deck as nav lights for a chopper landing.
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Excellent idea! I'm going to be busy!
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I was going to suggest wiring something like a small radar array - if there is one - to rotate clockwise if it's filling and counter clockwise if it's evacuating.
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:-)) Many thanks for the link to the wessex :} have two on their way they are a rare item in 1/100 scale that's for sure.
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Sometimes a rotating object can be mistaken for one way when its actually rotating the other - whereas a green led and a red led or white for illumination or steady or flashing is more of a concrete indication unless they blow of course.
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I had a look at your videos and think the working landing craft are a good idea especially to help demonstrate the dock.
Is your Wife/Partner a model boater or just helping you film your hard work?
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>>:-(I dread the thought of my wife and myself sharing a modelling room each building our own boats <*< :embarrassed:, I bet it is a rare event, maybe ok sailing together lol.