Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Engineering Techniques and Materials. => Topic started by: Nemo on April 08, 2016, 03:00:30 PM

Title: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 08, 2016, 03:00:30 PM
Due to restricted bench space in my small workshop I have decided to swap my fixed vice with a removable type to allow me a flexible position when working on differing projects.
I was taken by this Stanley item in my local DIY store and purchased it as it seemed the perfect item for my needs, with a respectable name and reasonable price.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-183069-Multi-Angle-Hobby/dp/B001HBS0I0
However, I was shocked/surprised that, on unwrapping this apparently well made vice, the bench attaching screw was completely stripped, therefore unable to grip onto the edge of my bench. Similarly, the twin screws adjusting the vice 'gap' were extremely stiff in operation and not what one would expect from a new item. On return to the store, the assistant could hardly believe the faults!
I then checked the reviews on Amazon and found 22 similar complaints to my own, despite many 5* reviews, which leaves me completely puzzled about the Stanley quality control if any!. Alternative vices of a similar pattern do not appeal to me and I wondered what vice, if any, members could recommend for hobby use, with the option of being removable. So beware Stanley!
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 08, 2016, 04:01:46 PM
I have had several of the cheaper 'hobby vices' and found them unsatisfactory. At the moment I have A Proxxon FMZ which is a bit more expensive but is well made and probably worth the extra for something you make a lot of use of. Mine is has a bolt down base but there is a clamp on alternative.

Look around for the best price though.

Colin
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Mad_Mike on April 08, 2016, 05:04:34 PM
That's quite unfortunate as we've been given those at work as and there's at least 15 of us at they all work excellent can't fault them at all.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 08, 2016, 06:13:17 PM
That's the rub MadMike! Do I go the 'once bitten, twice shy', or do I take another chance on the Stanley as I like the look of it - but..........!! Another reviewer on another site did just that and got another, also faulty.  %)

Unless I can find another alternative I may just give it one more go. A pity, as Stanley does not seem to care much about the customer buying lottery! Next time I will unwrap it in the store and check it out and save myself another 20 mile round trip. >:-o

Colin, I like and  use Proxxon stuff and considered their vice , then found this review -

'Not good at all
The ball clamping mechanism does not hold the vice in position and it moves with little pressure. Stanley sells a little vice very similar to this one that actually works very well and cost much less.'


See what I mean?  %)
Bob.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: warspite on April 08, 2016, 06:15:09 PM
I have one of these can't remember how much but bought it from screwfix last year, actually think it was around the 25.00 mark, only just using it in anger now, well not actually, keeping the jaw pressure down to just tight enough to grip with this stuff at the moment. I think the Stanley name is just that - the quality has gone the way of most diy tools now - Chinese imitations and the quality is that of an imitation.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 08, 2016, 06:31:51 PM
Bob,

Yes, I saw that review too. All I can say is that my Proxxon clamps well enough although it hasn't had heavy use. The problem with just the one review is that you don't know how the guy was treating it or even if he is using it properly!

Colin
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Mad_Mike on April 08, 2016, 07:01:39 PM
I would try again but from another source. If youve seen bad reviews in the same place its bound to be a bad batch. We use our vices daily on the factory floor and they go through some hammer.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 08, 2016, 07:58:10 PM
Mike, thanks, I have decided to try a STANLEY again following your excellent review! :-))
I think reviews are a guide to judgement and no more, and I trust, as you say, they might have been a bad batch. I will advise how the next one turns out.
Thanks to all for comments.
Bob.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: essex2visuvesi on April 09, 2016, 09:08:55 AM
I bought one of these, it seems to be adequate for the tasks I have given it.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__57972__Heavy_Duty_Universal_Table_Vice_with_Drill_Clamp_UK_Warehouse_.html?strSearch=Vice
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on April 09, 2016, 10:48:49 AM

You will probably find that the Stanley is made in China.
There does not seem to be any testing or quality control these days.
It is left to the consumer, hence if defective, send it back and you get a new one, a lot cheaper than carrying out quality control etc.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 09, 2016, 06:40:43 PM
Nothing on it or packaging (which was the best bit about it!) to show where it was made.

Does not show much concern for the customer having 3 trips out to get what they want - if they're lucky!  %)
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 09, 2016, 06:45:07 PM
I found one in Homebase today and with consent of staff I opened it and checked it on the premises. It appears to be working OK, but time might tell!
What a pity the days have gone when we could rely on a name for quality. B----r the Chinese! >:-o
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: NFMike on April 09, 2016, 10:17:30 PM
What a pity the days have gone when we could rely on a name for quality. B----r the Chinese! >:-o
Don't see it's the Chinese' fault. It's consumers wanting stuff cheap and British companies wanting a tidy profit that has driven the cost of production so low that only the lowest price manufacturers can supply the stuff. Which means workers that cost a lot less than 7 an hour.

The Chinese are perfectly capable of producing good stuff - IF we are prepared to pay.
Policing the quality is needed too of course, but that is true whoever you buy from as 'business' people will always do the least they can get away with regardless of nationality.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: tigertiger on April 10, 2016, 02:05:43 AM
Off shoring everything is a bit like the Tragedy of the Commons.


If everyone does it, there is not real advantage, and all you have done is degraded the market.
If companies off shore, they can reduce costs. As a result they gain competitive advantage, increase profits and the consumer gets a bargain. Win win.


If all companies off shore, they have reduced cost to try and maintain competitiveness. Profit margins have not increased due to fierce competition, as prices are driven further down, and once margins have been cut back to the bone, quality goes down. The consumer does not win as they now have no job, or lower pay (in real terms/no pay rises year on year) and so they cannot spend as much and might not buy the product at all; and if they do the quality is lower than it used to be. The market can actually shrink and all companies in the sector are selling less.
Lose, lose, lose, lose,  lose, lose.  {:-{
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: warspite on April 10, 2016, 12:13:25 PM
essex2visuvesi, that vice is identical to the one I posted - granted in grey not green, and supplied with a circular adjustable clamp whereas mine wasn't  {:-{, its doing a grand job at the moment - 12.99 with screwfix at the moment - can't remember what I paid, next project to find out  {-),hmm theres a more heavy duty portable version for 25.00
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on April 10, 2016, 01:26:26 PM
Just be a ware that the Stanley, or other brands may not say made in China, even though they are.

Had a similar situation here, in that a reputable paint brush manufacture moved his operation to China.

All Chinese made brushes carried the Aussie trade brand.

When I contact them regarding a fault, it came about that all their brushes were made under Australian supervision and standards.
However they still made brushes in Australia, dearer, and these were marked made in Australia whereas all others were Chinese made and cheaper .

They did a six monthly visit to check on quality control etc, etc, but after my complaint said would need to see what had gone wrong and I received Australian made complimentary replacements.

Bottom line the brand means nil and could still be Chinese made.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: inertia on April 10, 2016, 01:51:53 PM
I, too, bought one of the yellow Stanley vices. I had to rip the elaborate cardboard packaging apart to get the thing out of it and then found that the top corner of the jaw had been damaged (dropped?) whilst being handled in the store. The handle was almost impossible to turn and so the sliding jaw was very reluctant to move at all. The replacement vice was undamaged but I had to take it apart, clean and grease it and reassemble it with copious sloshings of WD40, before the handle was free and the jaw slid easily. Now all that's been done it's actually a cracking little hobby vice; I must have one of the decent ones!
BTW I don't know where they are made but the big #1992 trimming knife blades we all seem to use are much better if they bear the Stanley logo than other much cheaper ones. They're also double the price (plobabry Blitish steel...). Stockpile them while you can!
DM
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: warspite on April 10, 2016, 02:16:01 PM
I've two packs of 'STANLEY' blades 11-921 but unsure where they were made - the other pack is 8-11-700 and it says on the case, made in Taiwan, and if you know your history, Taiwanese are the real Chinese (ROC), not the Peoples Repuplic of China (PRC), who the Tiawanese ran from to Formosa, it already being a state they controlled.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Norseman on April 10, 2016, 02:25:21 PM
http://www.toolstop.co.uk/how-to-choose-a-stanley-blade-a-toolstop-buying-guide-a1169


Article (2013?) mentions Stanley moving production to Sheffield and is a nice little guide to their blades.


Dave
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: inertia on April 10, 2016, 05:29:58 PM
Have some fun with this lot! http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-524300.html (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-524300.html)

BTW My Dad (who came from Doncaster) told me this story about the Japanese Sheffield when ah were joost a tiddler...

Thanks for that link, Dave - I'll have a shufti once I've got dinner in the oven.

Dave M

(Did they invent Formica in Formosa?)
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 10, 2016, 06:57:41 PM
Mayhemmers are persons of many vices. I had four at one time but now it's just two and the whisky, the latter of which I share with Dave (the vice not the whisky)

Colin
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 10, 2016, 10:32:43 PM
Have some fun with this lot! http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-524300.html (http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-524300.html)BTW My Dad (who came from Doncaster) told me this story about the Japanese Sheffield when ah were joost a tiddler...Thanks for that link, Dave - I'll have a shufti once I've got dinner in the oven.Dave M

(Did they invent Formica in Formosa?)

No Dave, you are thinking of Afromosia! ok2
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 10, 2016, 10:45:53 PM
Don't see it's the Chinese' fault. It's consumers wanting stuff cheap and British companies wanting a tidy profit that has driven the cost of production so low that only the lowest price manufacturers can supply the stuff. Which means workers that cost a lot less than 7 an hour.
The Chinese are perfectly capable of producing good stuff - IF we are prepared to pay.
Policing the quality is needed too of course, but that is true whoever you buy from as 'business' people will always do the least they can get away with regardless of nationality.

As other posters have commented - if the Chinese can get away with producing poor quality stuff  (or as they might call it -CLAP!)  and passing it off to us they will. That is why I see it as the fault of the Chinese! As a consumer (like Inertia) I want something that works, not a packaged piece of scrap metal (the Ch*nks know what they packing!) - and I am prepared to pay twice what I paid for this Chinese junk (pun intended! O0) to get what I want - wherever it is manufactured.
Are you listening Stanley??    >>:-(
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Colin Bishop on April 10, 2016, 10:55:23 PM
As I think has already been stated/implied, the Chinese will give you what you ask for. If you ask for cheap you will get cheap and the low quality that goes with it. They are quite capable of producing good stuff but that will cost more and you need a good quality control regime in place. I'm sure many of us can remember when 'made in Japan' was an indication of poor quality, you wouldn't say that now.

I think there are often unrealistic expectations of what you can get from places like China. If you cut costs to the bone then expect to get what you pay for and probably inconsistent quality. I don't think it is a question of the Chinese 'getting away with poor quality', they manufacture to the price point set by the customer.

Colin
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 10, 2016, 10:59:29 PM
Colin, some people may expect poor quality for cheapness, but no-one expects or will pay for a useless/broken item. There is a world of difference here! Basically the problem lies, in this case, with Stanley.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Norseman on April 10, 2016, 11:35:52 PM
If people want to knock anyone then let's drop nationalities altogether and focus on business. Businessmen will set the price they will pay and contract for exactly what. I have lots of Chinese stuff that works fine for day to day works ... Blue escs excepted. I'm in agreement with Father Ted


"The Chinese - A Great bunch of lads"!


Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: dreadnought72 on April 11, 2016, 12:00:04 AM
If all companies off shore...


Ah, now this is where my common sense utterly gets bamboozled by modern economics.


Back in the day, when I were a lad, the UK had a manufacturing industry. People were paid to make widgets, for example, and popped out to buy gizmos, doodahs, and whatjamacallits with their cash. Products were created, money flowed about, and all made sense.


These days, people work in service industries, selling each other stuff in the retail sector, running hotels and conference venues and offering financial products. We buy in all the widgets, gizmos, doodahs and whatjamacallits from somewhere else. But what with? Where is any money actually made? What is created? And they bang on about 'growth'.


I dunno.


Andy


Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: tigertiger on April 11, 2016, 01:58:52 AM
Ultimately, in China, you get what you pay for. There are no 'real' bargains. The thing that costs three times as much will outperform and outlast the cheaper one. Often the price difference is a factor of 3 or 4.


How does this help you the UK consumer, where companies pricing is based on more than just cost considerations. Buy the more expensive one. In UK the difference in price can be 50%, but even that is marked up from a base price. Sadly 'Made in England' does not guarantee quality any more.
If you really want to do your research search these two websites, and you will find the export prices for made in China products http://www.alibaba.com/  and http://www.madeinchina.com/
However, you will not be able to buy from here, unless you want to trade, as everything here is bulk order quantities. Sometimes quoted in tonnes.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: NFMike on April 11, 2016, 08:47:10 AM
Basically the problem lies, in this case, with Stanley.
So, are they still British? Or have they been bought by the Chinese?
If the former then this is not the Chinese' fault.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: essex2visuvesi on April 11, 2016, 11:23:02 AM
Ultimately, in China, you get what you pay for. There are no 'real' bargains. The thing that costs three times as much will outperform and outlast the cheaper one. Often the price difference is a factor of 3 or 4.


How does this help you the UK consumer, where companies pricing is based on more than just cost considerations. Buy the more expensive one. In UK the difference in price can be 50%, but even that is marked up from a base price. Sadly 'Made in England' does not guarantee quality any more.
If you really want to do your research search these two websites, and you will find the export prices for made in China products http://www.alibaba.com/ (http://www.alibaba.com/)  and http://www.madeinchina.com/ (http://www.madeinchina.com/)
However, you will not be able to buy from here, unless you want to trade, as everything here is bulk order quantities. Sometimes quoted in tonnes.


Alibaba has a retail site:
www.aliexpress.com
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on April 11, 2016, 12:13:56 PM
Essex,

Thank you, very interesting site.

Noted that most Chinese sites offer free postage.
In fact the Government probably picks up the tab.

Wanted to buy some articles from the US, cost $90.00, delivery was $110.00.

When I asked about alternate delivery systems, answer was nope we only use UPS.

Cancelled the order.

Not only are the Chinese "items" the same as and cheaper than the "others" but they can also be post free.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out who will still be in business in a years time.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: warspite on April 11, 2016, 06:52:35 PM
Granted we knock the Chinese (me included sometimes), but to be honest, they are good at making most things, either manufactured - say I phones for instance or the parts therin, or industrial motors (most 0.25kW to 45.0kW inclusive are Chinese manufacturers) made under strict guidelines, and rebadged to suit different suppliers - even seimens.

Uk manufactured items are dodgy sometimes as they try to compete in price, not all - just a few, the company I worked for prior to my latest job, made fans, where the competitions HEAVY DUTY CONSTRUCTION AT A PREMIUM PRICE - was our standard, so a client could buy a rivals for say 1000.00 and it would last a year maybe, then he would by another the following year and so on, justifying to the bean counter, "look I've bought a fan for 1000.00 in this years budget", the other manufacturer (us) would have cost 2500.00. Yet ours would last 4-5 years or longer, so do the math. We also made them to suit the application and adjusted them to suit the connection and situation, whereas they may have had to buy special tapers and other bits to make it fit. But I'm not bitter - much.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: tigertiger on April 12, 2016, 01:55:11 PM
Free postage.
This probably won't be postage from China. Just imagine Amazon with a Chinese owner.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: kees de mol on April 12, 2016, 06:46:37 PM

Alibaba has a retail site:
www.aliexpress.com (http://www.aliexpress.com)

That true. I bought lots of stuff there. little tools like files in all different sizes forms and type. Hobbyknifes, sandingsticks, paintbrushes. Lots and lots of smd-leds, resistors, wire and other electronic stuff, very nice tweezers (even with ceramic tips) and all for very low pricing. Some times I order and one week later it is delivered. When something goes wrong, you just contact the seller and you will get full refund or a new item. And the deliveringcosts are zero euro's . Most of the items are of good quality (not worse then when you buy it in a store (if offcourse you can find a store who sells the items))

Ohh, some times you really get Chinese quality :o . I once ordered 5 stainless steel ruller (15cm) for in total 2 euro. They look very good and they were cheap but after measuring the rulers turned out 15cm was 15,2 cm  >:-o I contact the seller and I got my whole 2 euro's back :-)) The rulers I still use offcourse
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on April 12, 2016, 10:53:33 PM
That true. I bought lots of stuff there. little tools like files in all different sizes forms and type. Hobbyknifes, sandingsticks, paintbrushes. Lots and lots of smd-leds, resistors, wire and other electronic stuff, very nice tweezers (even with ceramic tips) and all for very low pricing. Some times I order and one week later it is delivered. When something goes wrong, you just contact the seller and you will get full refund or a new item. And the deliveringcosts are zero euro's . Most of the items are of good quality (not worse then when you buy it in a store (if offcourse you can find a store who sells the items))

Ohh, some times you really get Chinese quality :o . I once ordered 5 stainless steel ruller (15cm) for in total 2 euro. They look very good and they were cheap but after measuring the rulers turned out 15cm was 15,2 cm  >:-o I contact the seller and I got my whole 2 euro's back :-)) The rulers I still use offcourse

Kees,

Yes, agree, my Son buys from China all the tome as does my Daughter, jewelry.

Both say no arguments if you complain, they just send a replacement.



Much, much, better than buying from fleabay
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: essex2visuvesi on April 13, 2016, 08:34:08 AM
Another good site for bits and bobs
http://www.banggood.com/


same no quibble customer service
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: irishcarguy on April 14, 2016, 07:59:38 PM
I too have items that were made in China & I think we sometimes unfairly knock their products.  I have a Busy Bee store in the city & it sells mainly Chinese workshop equipment. I have to name a few items bought from them A Lathe & most of its tooling, also a milling machine & the tooling as well, several, vices, ( I have nearly all the tooling for the mill I think, LOL )a Makita scroll saw, Robi  bench grinder ( I already have industrial doubles in my main work shop for really heavy work. I have not had a spot of trouble with any of these tools. Their lathes & mills will match most from anywhere else & are in some cases much better than the competition, & are sitting on the floor ready to test. I have got over a hundred different tools from this store, 95% Chinese & have never had to return a single item. The range of accessories they have made for their lathes & milling machines is mind boggling & best of all nearly always in stock and @ very good prices. Before you buy any tools have a look at their web site & also Grizzly in the U.S. (same people as Busy Bee, brothers in fact )I would think they sell in Europe under a different name. When our dollar was on par I purchased from Grizzly as well & received the items in less than a week & undamaged. They quote the shipping costs also for each item. I get brochures from B/Bee & an Email from Grizzly when they are having a sale. I just bought a buffing machine from Busy Bee on Saturday , cleared a space on the bench,( not so easy, where was Neil when I needed him ) unpacked it, plugged it in & switched it on, it ran quiet & smooth, again no complaints.  Mick B. NOTE I AM A SUCKER FOR TOOLS.
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: essex2visuvesi on April 14, 2016, 08:16:43 PM
NOTE I AM A SUCKER FOR TOOLS.


(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--dyotcaP9nM/UQHBCam8dqI/AAAAAAAAAJo/TTU8waIfe5Q/s1600/drill.JPG)
Irishcarguy tests his latest purchase
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: Nemo on April 14, 2016, 11:07:53 PM
These are good too.  :-))  My Moron Lamp works fine -  in the daytime!  %%  My only question is - where are the Stanley Hobby Vices????
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: kees de mol on April 15, 2016, 12:09:09 AM
@Nemo

I really like these adverts. Very funny, I thought only the Brittisch had such a good taste of humour. :-))
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: inertia on April 15, 2016, 08:01:04 AM
@Nemo

I really like these adverts. Very funny, I thought only the Brittisch had such a good taste of humour. :-))

Kees
Try this. Rumour has it that the publication is American  http://www.madmagazine.com/ (http://www.madmagazine.com/)
DM
Title: Re: 'Hobby' Vice.
Post by: tsenecal on April 15, 2016, 06:07:10 PM
the "Hazard Fraught" tools is a spoof of a real "american" company


http://www.harborfreight.com/


and the spoof is incredibly accurate