Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Stavros on July 12, 2016, 08:10:59 am
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Why is it new members ask for advise especially novices and then go the completely the opp direction and then wonder ..why did I waste my money!!!!!!!
Dave
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Good question.
I know that once people have a theory in their head about how something is, it's very, very hard to change it.
I'd guess this is related ... They actually already have an idea of how they think it should be done and are really asking for confirmation that they are right; so contrary views just don't fit.
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Plague
I've had that suspicion for a long time, too. The problem is that you can never tell when you try to help them that all they're looking for is the answer that they've already come to. There are several people on my little list who will never get any further advice from me, especially if it's a complicated issue or something to do with ACTion units. The other annoying ones are those who don't even acknowledge a reply, let alone say thanks.
My Forum time is given freely but that doesn't mean I'm happy to waste it.
Dave M
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Agreed with all of the above - I suspect that a great many who slept peacefully through technical lessons like maths, physics, chemistry, at school got their technical information later through movies. The Mythbusters got several seasons out of testing mistaken beliefs on how the physical world works.
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We have club members like this who ask advice then go their own way,it goes t---- up but then still pursue the same path.You cannot do anything with these folk,waste of time..
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Besides people having their own ideas stuck in their heads leading to dismissal of advice it should also be noted this is a forum where TRUSTING the advice given is taken at your own risk... not all advice on any forum is necessarily good or if it is, their is limited credibility in the poster of the advice to prove what your saying is true.
It doesn't matter how many years you been building, how long you been posting/trolling ( yes there are quite a few trolls here) on the forum or how old you are, the person asking things doesn't really care about you, so why should he/she care about your information?
Honestly i rarely take advice from a forum suggestion.... no matter how genuine the advice is until i have checked it several times against what i already know or other information available to prove what was said is true or i ring my old man who will give me the blunt bottom line.
Don't take it personally, my only advice if people are asking for help and you think its going to be a waste of your time then just simply don't post, or if you do post don't be annoyed when your information is dismisses.
Just because information you give is how you might or would do things does not mean its necessarily right or suitable for the job especially to someone with an idea in their head...
There are better ways to convince people your information is a better way to go by providing proof something i rarely seen done on a lot of posts, lots of text but no evidence to suggest otherwise.
( if i post and i need to prove what i'm saying i will post photos and other items to explain how, why, where, when of it all, and i think many know this)
You all know the old saying ''if you can't prove it, it never happened.''
Maybe use that as a guide next time you post a suggestion back it up with a photo/links/ build logs etc. maybe then you'll be less frustrated with your dismissed information as you just might convinced then!
When i post help i make it clear that i don't care if my information is ignored or dismissed at the end of the day its not my build/model/project i don't have to live with the mistakes made from failure to follow decent advice, i posted an answer to how i think it should be done or w/e but its my personal opinion, if they use it cookies for me if not when it goes wrong i will be the first to laugh.
The biggest problem with all forums is drama, conflicts and the need to go off topic rapidly, this clutters posts asking for help, multiple arguments over advice because people don't agree that's was the right way to do it etc etc etc etc etc......how do you think someone asking a question will see this? I know if i see such things i will instantly dismiss all the information from these posters then and in future regardless if they were right or not because the behavior to go with some arguments or disagreements can be seen as childish, and who wants advice from adults acting as children?
This forum has a few issues like that over the years,I get the occasional flare up on my own forum every now and again, fortunately now its clearing up which is why i don't mind posting here again after a few years absence.
Just my OPINION!, feel free to ignore it! {-)
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I for one would like to thank the many Mayhem members who have given me invaluable advice, much of it priceless, without which It may have taken years more to have reached the same level of skills. Where I can help others I try to do my best.
However: There are occasions when perhaps my inability to fully define the problem, and all the associated parts and stages of the build, that sometimes a genuine suggestion meant in good spirit may simply not be practical for that case.
I am still grateful that someone has taken the time and trouble to respond though.
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My preferred method for testing the mettle of a novice, is to ask them to post a photo.
If they can be bothered to work that out or ask for help to do that, then they are probably willing to listen.
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I've seen a new member here asking for advice on how to accomplish something and receiving a dozen replies - all good advice by the way!
Then a couple of days later using the same log in name, asking the same question on another forum and two facebook pages!
Like the old adage : You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink! comes to mind. I sometimes think how many times does one person need to hear something before the accept it.
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You are also forgetting that the answer that you give to someone's question may be shouted down as total rubbish on another forum. That might be the reason they ignore your sage advice.
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You are also forgetting that the answer that you give to someones question may be shouted down as total rubbish on another forum. That might be the reason they ignore your sage advice.
Good comment, also there may be several other ways to skin that cat.
Generally the tone of the reply will instil confidence in accepting the "advice".
Some teach to get all the advice you can, you know pros and cons, then make up your own mind.
It is then you who has erred and not the advice.
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As pointed out above, there may be a number of valid answers to a query in which case all you can say is that "it works for me'. Whether it will work for someone else will depend on the circumstances and their particular skill set.
I am more likely to respond if the enquirer is either asking something specific or has shown that they have already made some effort to resolve the issue themselves.
I am less enthusiastic towards somebody who has bought a model on EBay and comes onto the forum with wide open arms saying 'here I am, a complete novice - teach me!'
Colin
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I am less enthusiastic towards somebody who has bought a model on EBay and comes onto the forum with wide open arms saying 'here I am, a complete novice - teach me!'
Colin
I think that's how a lot of people get into the hobby.
They have a fantasy for years (or from childhood) about having a huge, all singing battleship but look at the price of kits and can't commit the money because of life situation.
They keep looking at the expensive catalogues but suddenly, something which looks close to their fantasy appears on Ebay at a bargain price so they buy it on impulse - it's only when it arrives that they realise that they don't have ANY of the skills required to build it and get it functional.
So they search the web and arrive in a forum like this with too many questions so they act like a bull in a china shop when receiving conflicting advice and contradictory solutions to their many build problems.
If they don't get 'help' they get fed up and the model goes in the loft or back on Ebay.
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I have also seen the situation where some one will ask me advice. their response is "that's not what the guy at the hobby shop said". they then do what the guy at the hobby shop told them to do, and it ends in disaster.
come to find out, the "expert" at the hobby shop is a person who "specializes" in drones, planes, or cars -- or worse -- trains, and has zero knowledge in boats or subs. he does, however, work at a hobby shop, which automatically makes him an expert at anything r/c related, and oddly enough, all of his advice results in him saying something like "i have exactly what you need right here in stock".
magnify this "expertise" by 2x when the discussion is about brushless motors or spektrum vs futaba radios.
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This is all pretty discouraging stuff. Perhaps I'll be a bit more careful about who I do reply to in future. {:-{
DM
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I have also seen the situation where some one will ask me advice. their response is "that's not what the guy at the hobby shop said". they then do what the guy at the hobby shop told them to do, and it ends in disaster.
come to find out, the "expert" at the hobby shop is a person who "specializes" in drones, planes, or cars -- or worse -- trains, and has zero knowledge in boats or subs. he does, however, work at a hobby shop, which automatically makes him an expert at anything r/c related, and oddly enough, all of his advice results in him saying something like "i have exactly what you need right here in stock".
magnify this "expertise" by 2x when the discussion is about brushless motors or spektrum vs futaba radios.
As a Hobby Shop person, I can confirm all of the above while also offering my spin on things..Spektrum vs Futaba, easy, Futaba all day long, Spektrum over hyped and over rated! Brushless motors...just got my first brushless set up in a model and I am proud to say that I ignored all advice given by ex-aero modellers, fellow members stuck in an opinion rut, and fans of Hobbyking, thought it through, got it working, very chuffed!
The problem being that 'experts' cannot be identified easily, we (the experts) should be able to take a simple test, which will earn us a hat with EXPERT written on it, everyone else can then be happy that they are getting the right advice from the right people.
Thank you for listening, its nice when that happens %)
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and another thing........
"Can you advise me on the best set up, motor wise, for my project?"
"What would that be then?"
"I would rather not say at the moment..."
This has happened, not once, not twice, but over a dozen times over the years...you're not Barnes Wallace and you aint making a bouncing bomb, spill it!!!!
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Just to put the other side of the coin!
Perhaps some contributors albeit well intentioned come across as opinionated or condecending.
Some of us know we're not experts even though I've been dabbling for the last 50 years on & off. So when you do get feed back/advise, it is gratefully recieved but perhaps not acknowledged because of the way it's put.
I've asked straight forward guestions from posters before, only to to have a so called expert butt in with a critical post that has nothing whatsover to do with the question originally asked.
Sorry guys if you're offended, but that's how it is for me. :((
Misog
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Oh yes, that would be me!
Its always nice to offer advice to people who appreciate the effort put in, but a minority can be more than a little difficult to help.
Over the years you have to develop a hide like a rhino, just to keep you the right side of sane, doesn't always help though!!
Keep the questions coming, there are some proper bright sparks here on the forum, just look out for their hats, that's how you can tell them apart.... :-))
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I am less enthusiastic towards somebody who has bought a model on EBay and comes onto the forum with wide open arms saying 'here I am, a complete novice - teach me!'
A rather strange remark from someone so highly regarded within model boating circles,very narrow minded, and a wee tad selfish in my opinion.
Especially as I bought an unbuilt model kit of a lifeboat from that auction site a little while ago,( via my knowledgeable friend Neil) and will be opening my arms to helpers when I need such.
Jim.
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With Neil as a mentor, you shouldn't need much help
from anyone else Jim :-))
Ned
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With Neil as a mentor, you shouldn't need much help
from anyone else Jim :-))
Ned
Sadly Ned, neil has virtually given up model making.
His ferry that he was building for his daughter lies half finished, due to his terrible arthritis, and quips that his daughter who is well on her way to being a deck officer with the merchant navy will probably become a captain before he finishes her model........a little fed up these days to say the least.
He has said he will let me use his workshop to build the lifeboat once he musters the enthusiasm, but, really has lost his Mo Jo at present.
Jim.
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Very sorry to hear that, Jim.
Please give him all my best wishes and
tell him the Calmac ferry needs finishing
before daughter gets her first command.
Ned
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Very sorry to hear that, Jim.
Please give him all my best wishes and
tell him the Calmac ferry needs finishing
before daughter gets her first command.
Ned
I'll do that Ned.
cheers,
Jim.
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Heart warming to find that i'm not the only one who finds it a little off puting when one receives, shall we say tounge in cheek replies.
Puts you off posting again!
Misog O0
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Just to put the other side of the coin!
Perhaps some contributors albeit well intentioned come across as opinionated or condecending.
Some of us know we're not experts even though I've been dabbling for the last 50 years on & off. So when you do get feed back/advise, it is gratefully recieved but perhaps not acknowledged because of the way it's put.
I've asked straight forward guestions from posters before, only to to have a so called expert butt in with a critical post that has nothing whatsover to do with the question originally asked.
Sorry guys if you're offended, but that's how it is for me. :((
Misog
Please excuse me if I'm considered a guilty party here, but I always try to read the original post and keep my reply relevant to the question which was asked. I have seen others use broad questions as an opportunity to wax lyrical and demonstrate everything they know - or think they know - about the subject without any regard to the question asked. There are also those who join in without having read anything but the immediately preceding post; I frequently see my own words quoted in such replies.
There used to be a wonderful guy who posted on here by the name of Pete Keirle (PMK). His forum avatar was a picture of a transmitter, underneath which was the phrase "Facts, not opinion". Pete died four years ago but I've tried to hold true to his maxim.
If my replies are now to be assessed by those asking the questions on such criteria as artistic interpretation, degree of condescension, incidence of being rubbished on another forum etc then I'll have to think seriously about whether or not to give a monkey's.
....and it's "tongue"...just like this one :P
DM
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Jim, perhaps I didn't express myself as well as I should have. The people who do annoy me a bit are those who expect forum members to spend their time giving advice when they themselves cannot be bothered to do a bit of elementary research first. This forum is a treasure house of information and the subject headings are clearly laid out so I would expect a newcomer to spend a bit of time looking around before simply jumping in with enquiries which are often easily answered, sometimes many times over. There is a tendency on the part of some people to treat internet forums as a bespoke solution service taking other people's time and trouble for granted. Personally I think this is lazy. Sometimes I will ask for help myself and am grateful for it but I do make every effort to solve the problem myself first.
Colin
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http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,55332.msg574112/topicseen.html#msg574112
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Please excuse me if I'm considered a guilty party here, but I always try to read the original post and keep my reply relevant to the question which was asked. I have seen others use broad questions as an opportunity to wax lyrical and demonstrate everything they know - or think they know - about the subject without any regard to the question asked. There are also those who join in without having read anything but the immediately preceding post; I frequently see my own words quoted in such replies.
There used to be a wonderful guy who posted on here by the name of Pete Keirle (PMK). His forum avatar was a picture of a transmitter, underneath which was the phrase "Facts, not opinion". Pete died four years ago but I've tried to hold true to his maxim.
O0 O0 :-)) :-))
If my replies are now to be assessed by those asking the questions on such criteria as artistic interpretation, degree of condescension, incidence of being rubbished on another forum etc then I'll have to think seriously about whether or not to give a monkey's.
....and it's "tongue"...just like this one :P
DM
Couldn't agree more O0 O0 O0
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Then there are others.......pontificating with opening remarks...."well in my opinion"...or "from my experience"
Yes these postings do appear on our MBM.... page after page in certain sections O0
I do feel sorry for persons who need the importance of their thoughts to be shown as pre-clipsing the subject >>:-(
Derek
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Then there are others.......pontificating with opening remarks...."well in my opinion"...or "from my experience"
Yes these postings do appear on our MBM.... page after page in certain sections O0
I do feel sorry for persons who need the importance of their thoughts to be shown as pre-clipsing the subject >>:-(
Derek
Derek
You just can't win, can you?
Both of these could be intended as qualifying remarks; the first intended to indicate that the writer doesn't have any direct experience of the problem but believes he might have something valid to add, while the second means that he has done something similar etc etc.
Leave either of them out and you're open to accusations of being arrogant i.e. "My way or the highway".
And WTH does "pre-clipsing" mean?
Like I said, my contributions are free and intended to assist other people but if they're not appreciated then I'll stop posting them. If anyone really does want my advice then please send me a PM.
Suit yourselves.
DM
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As Dave says, ' In/from my experience' can simply mean 'Works for me'.
Dave's contributions are always clear, helpful, relevant and to the point and backed up by real experience and not half baked opinion. Be grateful for them.
Colin
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There could also be the fact that the enquirer does not possess the "skills" to carry out a particular recommendation.
One example, the number who find "electricity" baffling. However this is no longer an issue, as we can now point them to the excellent article that spells it out simply.
With regards to looking it up, which I do, either on the forum or the web, it doesn't always work.
Example, I looked for the article on electrical referred to above but could not find it, fortunately I knew who authored it and found it that way.
I am often astounded by links that others put up in the forum and am at a loss as to how they are found. Obviously my searching skills need more work.
I used to work on the principle to never ask anyone to do what I couldn't do.
Over the years, with experience, I have learnt that, that is flawed logic. There are some who can't do it and others that can.
Which may translate to, works for me but does it work for him???
At the end of the day, let us not cut them off, even if they are lazy and that does certainly come across, this forum has good repute and needs all our support to carry it on.
So guys, keep it up I appreciate the commentary and advice.
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Changing the topic slightly, if i may, i have never understood the non-members who send an email in to Martin, asking for advice about something or other. If they can send an email, they must have access to a computer, therefore why not register on the forum and post the question that way? >>:-(
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Dave, I'm in the mood to cut through this. You know you are an expert, we know you are an expert. If you stop posting we will all badger you until you start again. If someone hacks you off and does something daft you will know they have learned an important lesson when they put it right.
Pre- clipsing means to swipe an idiot on the ear before the rest of us get a chance😂
No offence meant Derek.
Chas
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Definition of the word 'expert':
'Ex' equals past it...
'Spurt' equals a drip under pressure...
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Yup, that's me too :}
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Come on Guys.....DM knows only too well my words were not for him .....and whilst I am not involved with the Black Arts, I read with interest every word he posts in these [his] helpful answers
Just for interest, I have looked the last ten [10] subject post threads from DM....and guess what?.....he did not use either of the terms that I mentioned
So from this, I am sorry Colin that you presumed my remarks were intended for DM..........
Remember Convict stock from OZ have tough skin, not thick skin
Derek
Oh...BTW..... "pre-clipsing" is a newish word for people who are abnormally interested in 'TWIT type or twitter postings'...I do not subscribe to such faceless media............
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I wasn't referring to you Derek, just commenting generally. But never assume that people always understand what you mean unless you are explicit. That is how many misunderstandings arise on forums.
Colin
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I am one to research the heck out of something, look at what others have done, and
then come up with some course of action or solution. A lot of times things work well.
However, one of my mentors had a phrase he used a lot. It was,
"You can't do that..."
What he really meant was, yes, builder one did it that way, real ones might do it another...
But "you" don't have those motors, you don't have his gears, so you are grabbing at straws.
"You" can copy what he did in some fashion, but... "You can't do 'THAT'."
So while good advice is abundant, it isn't always because your advice is being ignored.
It might be that someone doesn't have access to the same resources you have, and
is working with the resources that are available.
ok2
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That is true to an extent. The type of problem originally referred to was not where resources were lacking, but where a choice of parts had been made and the poster was looking for someone to affirm that, for instance, putting a large prop on a small high revving motor would work in a tug. Very often they are unable to accept that while unconventional ideas might occasionally work because of a fluke, conventional ideas only became conventional because they were found to work reliably.
And, of course, there are some who are utterly convinced that the rest of the world has been doing it wrong all along, especially people who have been doing it wring successfully for many years.
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I was determined not to get embroiled in an argument, but Stavros asked the question and I answered.
I don't know why for the hell of me, DM thinks I'm picking him out because I've never even crossed swords with him.
And I don't want to be the one that stopped him posting.
PM me if you want DM, I'd love to know why I'm The devil in disguise?
Big ego's on here!
Misog
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Having been model boating since 1982 and with the Display Team since just before it formed in 1986 and having been in retail, selling model boat related stuff for almost thirty years, I hope I can bring some knowledge to the party.
This is also a long time to be dealing with enquiries from modellers of all capabilities,. Most well intentioned and answered with honest answers, based on the above (earned) knowledge base..the problem comes with those, as described in the first post, who don't seem to appreciate that someone has to take time out to explain, in great detail sometimes, the way to solve a problem, with no 'cheers, thanks for that..' at the end. This can bring out the worst in people, ( not me, you have yet to see my worst :-)) ) so just try to understand our feelings too, we are, after all only human!
And if in the process of the above posts, I have offended anybody, don't forget, this is Model Boat Mayhem, not Model boat Po Faced, develop a sense of humour, its only little boats :-)