Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Model Boating => Topic started by: BFSMP on August 26, 2016, 12:22:06 am
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I cannot answer this question myself, as I have never built a model boat, other than airfix and revell plastic warships in my younger days, but I have made a few dolls houses over the years. And all from parts I have bought to adorn the scratch built carcasses.
However, I see an ever developing trend of people on different forums "scratch building" their model ships, but resorting to buying the services of people with 3D printers to produce exquisite fittings by robotic machines for their models, or going to the expense of buying a 3D printer themselves to produce their own fittings.
Now is this scratch building as some people state, and [as I feel, not] what category would it fall into in a club or show competition.
And does one get anywhere near the same enjoyment in letting a machine do the work for them, rather than their own fingers and dexterity.
Jim.
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Hullo Jim......without getting too far into the discussion subject, I see many of our 5" Gauge steam engine builders [having machined most components from bar stock & plate] ....one chap I know...[a retired coal miner] enrolled at a Technical College and mastered the art of vacuum casting miniature cast steel sections for his engine build prototypical of the original. Would this be considered scratch building?
Anyway these people now have the ability to adorn their machines with CNC produced wheel or bearing box covers [approx. 12mm square], however now emblazoned with the manufacturers logos......all in such detail...that prior to CNC/CNC printing was not possible...........
Such is the price or progress of technology O0.......there is no going backwards.....Derek
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there is no going backwards.....Derek
I think you have hit the nail squarely on the head, Derek.
Jim.
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Hi All
To me scratch building is a plan, timber, plywood, glue, few tools and yourself.
Also the help of forums and club members!!!
The workshop does not have to have all the gear money can buy.
I am not into show boats, I build boats to use.
Canabus
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there is every bit as much skill required to do the drawings to produce a part by 3d printer, its just a different skill.
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:o :o :o
Oops its back once again.
Is it or isn't it.
In fact like most words "scratch building" no longer has the original meaning.
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Surely scratch building means "making parts or fittings not available"
Irrespective of the method used to get the end result.
Years ago, would the humble table saw, or fret saw have been in the same category of the 3d printer today?
just different skill sets, using the latest technology.
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Looking at this issue from a different perspective, I pose the following -
There are two models being exhibited in a scale exhibition and they look identical.
All the fittings on one have been produced by 3D printer.
All the fittings on the other have been made by hand tooling wood/wire/brass etc.
The 64 million dollar question :-
Which one do you admire the most and if prizes are being awarded which one do the judges give the rosette to ?
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This is a subject which has been extensively discussed previously to no definitive conclusion except that:
A. Everyone has their own definition of what constitutes 'scratchbuilding'.
B. It doesn't matter anyway as scale modellers no longer tend to enter their models into competitions.
The answer to Mrlownotes question above is that it will depend on the specific rules applying to that particular competition. All competitions have their own set of rules and they often differ considerably in classes and detail. The MPBA rules were the closest to a 'national' standard see http://www.mpba.org.uk/scale.html but their scale competition is no longer well supported as it was in the past.
Colin
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It depends on what the judges (usually normal mortals not pulling a trolley full of reference works) know, see and are told.
One of my mates has a battleship that has, by its nature, a lot of repeat parts. He bought the necessary and learned to mould. He also, when showing, has a demo of the method alongside it. No questions, its scratch. Without that, anybodys guess.
It can be quite annoying for somebody who has genuinely built from plans and planks and bis of brass to be told authoritatively that his model is a kit, even if it came as an unintended compliment.
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Personally I am impressed when people set out to build something unique or out of the ordinary as opposed to the umpteen Bismarcks , Titanics, Corvettes and other common subjects which make up a good proportion of models seen at shows. These models may sometimes use commercial parts if they are true to scale but the overall result is something special.
However, as an example of what most people might consider to be 'pure' scratchbuilding, how about this bomb vessel I saw at the Society of Model Shipwrights exhibition last week - truly carpentry in miniature and exquisite modelmaking. There were other models to a similar standard and a report will appear in Model Boats in due course.
Colin
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When I was thinking about buying a digital SLR about 3 years ago I bought some magazines to research the subject and got disillusioned by the fact that virtually every picture in the mags had been Photoshopped.
This was because I'd previously used slide film and every shot stood or fell on the composition and exposure used at the time.
But I went ahead and bought a digital SLR and glad that I did. I learnt Lightroom (a simpler version of Photoshop) and am very pleased at some of the photos I've produced and it's great that you can remove the odd bit of litter, alter the exposure etc.
The photo has to be pretty good in the first place though as it's difficult to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
So, I've embraced the newer technology and I'm enjoying photography more because of it.
For me, as long as the main parts of the boat are built from scratch then I don't have a problem and that's what I'm going to do and fully intend to enjoy It!
I suppose if you're going to be really pedantic then even having plans/drawings to build from isn't really scratch built! :-)
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Don't forget you have to grow the tree too... ;)
Colin
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Nice one!
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I did not know plastic grows on trees.. ! %%
or do you need the build an oil rig and a refinery to get the plastic.. {-)
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For some people the "scratch built" is some kind of holier than thou one-up-manship used to elevate themselves over their peers.
Frankly, if I have a boat that is genuinely unique constructed and I can find an exact pre-made anchor or ventilator I would not bother making them from bits (although I could). In fact, I would go out of my way to add at least a few bought fittings just to avoid being tarred with that attitude.
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I think the term computer programmer and assembler rather than scratch builder applies.
Just my opinion
Sub.
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If you haven't seen this, here an example on this forum.
Scratch building yes/no. :-)) :-))
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=55230.new;topicseen#new
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I think the term computer programmer and assembler rather than scratch builder applies.
Just my opinion
Sub.
that, I agree with, sub.
no matter how good you are at drawing and designing by computer, which I am not in any way, it is the computer that is doing the "building". A quick way of building to get to water perhaps but I feel not scratch building
Jim.
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May be Not scratch building but I guess what is made is to a total scale required.
And in most cases great detail.
But It as far as I think defeats the object of building as much as you can.
Me as a starter and lost I will not have enough experience for a scratch build.
So For me built hull and superstructure to start the very first model.
Seen a few half built models for sale but again someone has spent a lot of time ::skill ::
patience :: and cash for me just to take credit for a completed model mainly completed by someone very experienced.
Apart from not having model skills I would most likely damage it or ruin the whole thing.
So 3d printing would be something I would consider for the above reasons.
That's now but may regret what I have written in a few years time. %)
Sonar
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If you build a model and enjoy sailing it
What the 'H' does it matter?
Scratch RTR kit or whatever enjoy
What you do.
Count rivets, get the right shade of grey
or other colours, but hell get it on the lake
and enjoy.
Otherwise put it in a glass case and look
at it and salivate over it.
Why build a magnificent model, fit it out with aload of expensive electronics
and be frightened of getting it wet?
Ned
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Looking back over the past decade that I've been making model boats I think that I could only say that I've achieved approx 85-90% scratch built ever! Apart from radio gear, on our first model the only items that were bought specifically were two portholes, two propellers, a flag and some vinyl tape for the waterline but this was due to me not knowing what was available.
I've used 3D printed items on my Majestic simply because they were the correct ones available in the scale I wanted.
I think that one of the last true 'scratch builders' was the late Brian King. From his books he made everything himself by lathe, casting or moulding.
I consider myself much like BobK, if there are fittings available I'm going to use them otherwise the project could take years unless you've got all the kit to make them.
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If you build a model and enjoy sailing it
What the 'H' does it matter?
Scratch RTR kit or whatever enjoy
What you do.
Ned
As a new to the modelling scene it the way my first one is going to be.
The second will be a little more of a challenge for me.
Hark at me I have nothing as yet and already planing a second
Got the model bug so it seems.. :-)) :}
Having in the past built a number of boats and a lot of refurbishing boats full size anything from 8 foot to 36 feet.
I know what goes where and what it is used for.
Not easy scaling down to a model I can tell you everything is a lot harder to think about.
But even so what I can not make I will buy for the first one.
Try harder for the second one but first something to float.
Sonar
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Let's face it, when building or refurbishing a full sized boat certain things are bought it from other manufacturers so what's the difference?
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Let's face it, when building or refurbishing a full sized boat certain things are bought it from other manufacturers so what's the difference?
I don't think that comment has any relevance to this discussion at all, especially when everything we use in our lives never stays pure. Even Concours de elegance restorations are never fully original, but what that has to do with scratch building a model using 3d produced parts, I have absolutely no idea.
Jim.
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Many years ago, I remember 2 gentlemen being snooty about a newcomers model. Why?, Because he had commercial radio gear, 'proper' modelers made their own. Times change and so must we, our boats are for enjoying, so we should do whatever it takes to enjoy our own without deriding others efforts.
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Many years ago, I remember 2 gentlemen being snooty about a newcomers model. Why?, Because he had commercial radio gear, 'proper' modelers made their own. Times change and so must we, our boats are for enjoying, so we should do whatever it takes to enjoy our own without deriding others efforts.
I haven't yet seen ANYONE deriding any other person's models during this discussion or in general, and all we are discussing in actual fact is whether one considers that using 3D printers to make fittings or even hulls etc are actually scratch building.
although myself I have my doubts, I have absolutely no objection at all in seeing models with crisp very detailed fittings that are hard to achieve by scratch and the fittings on the new Speedline Shannon model kit are just out of this world.
so to accuse people on here from deriding others efforts is wrong.
Jim.
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As I understand it, programming a 3D printer to print what you want takes a certain amount of skill, as does setting up a lathe or milling machine to cut a part, as does using an airbrush, etc. Etc.
If you need a skill to make a part, surely that is scratch building?
Yes you can buy off the shelf 3D printed , or lathe turned bits, which you haven't made yourself, not scratch building.
Just my take on things.
Chris
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As I understand it, programming a 3D printer to print what you want takes a certain amount of skill, as does setting up a lathe or milling machine to cut a part, as does using an airbrush, etc. Etc.
If you need a skill to make a part, surely that is scratch building?
Yes you can buy off the shelf 3D printed , or lathe turned bits, which you haven't made yourself, not scratch building.
Just my take on things.
Chris
yes, I understand your point Chris, and putting it that way, you have a VERY valid point, and I concede overwhelming to the point in question....I shall in future look upon 3D Printed parts as justifiable scratch building.
thank you.
Jim.
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But why would you need to 'justify' scratch building? To whom and what for?
Colin
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But why would you need to 'justify' scratch building? To whom and what for?
Colin
yes Colin, I think you do.
If you were entering a scratch built model into such as the Model Engineering Exhibition in London [ or where ever it is held now], You would have to justify to the judges that you had programmed the computer with your own drawings to produce your own certain 3d parts, that you had done all the donkey work in order for the machine [ and as Chris says, it could be a lathe or any tool to aid production]to produce those unique parts for your own unique model, as with those guidelines in the past of documented evidence to prove you had indeed scratch made those parts.....be they in wood, plastic or resin as in a printer.
Jim.
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My brother-in-law, George Punter, has sent a scratch built working model of a Saunderson and Mills tractor all the way from Australia to Brooklands, where this years MEX is being held. The head and arms of the driver figure were hand sculpted, then scanned and 3D printed, as the medium of the original sculpture (clay), was not robust enough. In the light of comments above, it will be interesting to see what the judges make of this. I assume that 3D printing will, in this case, be viewed in the same way as use of a lathe would be.
As a matter of interest, the tractor has been the subject of a series of articles in the magazine, Model Engineer, which some members may have seen. George and my sister are off to England soon to attend the MEX, among other things.
Peter.
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If we extend Peter's argument about the lathe. Do people consider there is a difference between hand turning and milling, Vs computer controlled lathes and milling machines. Personally I do see a difference, even if I program the machine/produce the CAD files; and that is not elitism or snobbery. If we stretch the example, is buying the CAD files, and loading them into the computer, the same as buying a plan.
I have seen prize wining scale models that were not scratch built. As someone else pointed out, producing some parts would be difficult/impossible to scratch build. To me scratch building entails a large amount of crafting by hand, but it is certainly not state of the art.
There is an argument that 3D printing deserves its own category(ies) in modelling/engineering competitions. Because it is a totally different set of skills that are required.
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Whatever the tools he used, including lathes, milling machines, laser engravers, CNC routers and 3D printing, if the builder created the part, it is scratch. If he bought it in, it isn't because somebody else did the scratch building. Most kits had their parts scratch built by somebody carefully filing away at lumps of brass at some stage, but not the eventual builder/owner.
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Jim,
I fully agree that if you are entering a serious competition then you need to be able to demonstrate to the judges the work and skills you have brought to your model but just how many people still enter proper competitions these days? At shows you will see many superb models but they rarely appear in what’s left of the major marine modelling competitions. I would reckon that less than 5% of scale model boaters enter competitions, hence my comment that a definition of scratch building is irrelevant to most people. Back in the 70s & 80s it was a different matter with events like the MPBA scale championship where you had to attend qualifying regattas to stand a chance of a place in the national final but that is all water under the bridge now – glory days indeed.
I have been a marine judge at the original MEX for 30 years now. When I started there were frequently 20 or more models in many of its 10 classes and we had a large judging panel which took a whole day prior to the exhibition opening to scrutinise the models. In recent years typical entries have been under 20 overall across all classes from perhaps 14 entrants with an average age over 70. To some extent this may reflect the general decline of the show but I think it is not untypical. Most modellers these days have no wish to enter competitions.
The MEX marine rules have not changed and pre date photo etching and moulding, let alone 3D printing! Entrants are simply asked to state which items on the model they have not made themselves. However, at this level it is expected that they will provide documentation on how they have researched and built their model so the information is usually there.
Judging categories for the MEX are:
Realism/Effect - (some models are intended to be ‘ornamental’ such as Admiralty Board Models)
Complexity – How much work was entailed in building the model.
Detail/Workmanship – The quality of craftsmanship
Finish – Quality of painting, absence of glue marks etc.
Documents and Presentation – Amount of research, how the model is displayed etc.
Judge’s Bonus – A bit extra for depicting an unusual prototype or anything else that makes the model stand out which is not covered in the other categories.
No attempt is made to try and define the value of particular techniques as this would be pretty much impossible. It is left to the judgement of the judges, after all that is what they are there for!
Colin
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I remember this debate was raised in the 1980's, when a few adventerous modellers started producng their own white metal and resin cast fittings.
This was the route I took as well. The argument was and is, if you produce the master pattern and then duplicate the parts cast in silicon rubber moulds....is it scratch building?
In a word yes...because you created the original pattern part. Therefore...if you create the 3d drawing and get it printed then the previous description still applies. That is, if it is not made a commercially available item.
Once the item is in the commercial domain, then it is no longer unique to the original one off model it was designed or made for. The terminology of semi kit was brought in to cover the grey cross over area between exact/scratch and kit constructions.
I see 3d printing as another useful tool for the model maker! Even though I don't have a clue how to use cad programs, I respect those that do and admire the work they produce with it. How can it be any different to using a lathe, band saw or any other type of tool we normally use?
It is called technological progress and we must accept it for what it is, another useful modelling tool.
Ian
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I don't think that comment has any relevance to this discussion at all, especially when everything we use in our lives never stays pure. Even Concours de elegance restorations are never fully original, but what that has to do with scratch building a model using 3d produced parts, I have absolutely no idea.
Jim.
I was replying to Sonar's post which in itself isn't really relevant to your question.
Most threads on all forums go off topic and have comments that may not be relevant to the OP, that's the nature of the beast. Without those contributions many threads would be very short lived.
Next time you post a question I'll make sure that I check that anything I say is completely relevant though I probably won't bother anyway.
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If you build a model and enjoy sailing it
What the 'H' does it matter?
Scratch RTR kit or whatever enjoy
What you do.
Count rivets, get the right shade of grey
or other colours, but hell get it on the lake
and enjoy.
Otherwise put it in a glass case and look
at it and salivate over it.
Why build a magnificent model, fit it out with aload of expensive electronics
and be frightened of getting it wet?
Ned
Exactly Ned. Does it matter a whit what terminology we use for a boat built by yourself from basic materials, whatever they are, wood, plastic, whatever. I always thought the term 'scratchbuilt' was a daft term, and anyway and who cares as long as you are proud of what you produced with your bare hands - warts and all. I have only been at this model boat making hobby for a few years, starting with absolutely no idea what to do and I am proud of what I now produce and sail, again - warts and all! Nine times out of ten I am asked 'Did you build it yourself?', the tenth one asks, 'Was it built from scratch?' Good luck to the 3D-ers - we are all in the same boat!
Bob.
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from the very beginning, especially without making use of or relying on any previous work for assistance:
"he built his own computer company from scratch"
I was interested what the dictionary said about scratch building , at the end of the day what ever floats your boat just enjoy .
David
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Surely if these "modern" ideas are not to be termed "scratch built" then anything with a fibreglass commercial hull is also not scratch built?
Where do you draw the line?
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If a model with a commercial GRP hull is entered into a 'scratch built' competition then it is unlikely to gain an award because the builder has bought in a large chunk of the model.
Drawing the line used to be relatively easy as 50 or so years ago the only options were to make everything yourself with basic materials or buy a complete kit. Since then, with the development of the commercial sector and new techniques such as cheap white metal moulding, photo etching and now of course 3D printing, the options have grown enormously so it is pretty much impossible to cover every eventuality in a set of competition rules.
For example, to obtain fittings from 3D printing you might take an original drawing, adapt it using CAD for 3D printing and set it up and print it on your own home assembled 3D printer. Or you might take your original drawing and have it adapted for3D printing by a bureau who will give you the file back to print out on your pre assembled 3D printer. Or you might adapt the drawing yourself and give the file to somebody else with a 3D printer to print out because you can't afford one. Then again you might make a prototype fitting of which you need lots yourself and have it 3D scanned to produce a file which you or someone else can print off.
Just how do you reflect all those options in terms of awarding points to a model?
Colin
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Hi All,
Just couldn't resist putting my oar in!!!.
In the beginning I built from kits and maybe made a few extra bits myself to make mine different or better, not scratch building.
As my skills and knowledge grew and my finances allowed, I built up a very nice workshop, with lots of lovely 'toys' as my wife calls them, to play with.
No matter what 'stuff' I had, I had to learn how to use them. Courses, help from some wonderful and skilled modellers, who are no longer with us, practice and hard work brought rewards and now I am happy to teach newcomers those hard won skills. Now a retired Engineering and Design and Technology teacher, I continue to learn and attempt to make things that will keep my brain sharp and my interest high.
I am a 'Scratch-builder' and proud of it, I enjoy finding subjects, boats usually, that no-one has done before, which often means that the parts needed cannot be bought, anywhere. As a result I have embraced all aspects of our wonderful hobby and learnt even more new skills as technology moves along. Long gone are the Casein and animal glues of my past and now we have Cyano-acrylates and so on, the wooden block planes along with their Record and Stanley newcomers now sit unused near the planer machine and the router. I've even built a Pole- lathe to turn wood and soft metals, but a shiney new Myford sits in its place.
I now make the patterns and cast in Resin the parts I need if more than a couple are needed, I will make a tool to turn handrail parts and I have taught myself how to etch parts as well. Still everything I do is original to me, I do the research, the drawings, the patterns and make the whole thing by dint of my own skill and work....That is Building from Scratch.
Also on my workbench is a Prusa i3 3D printer, which I researched how to make, bought all the bits for (and made some) and made myself. I had to buy a Drawing program and the Idiots guide on how to use it as well as the Slicer (G. Code programs) and I have spent the last 3 years on and off teaching myself how to use it, like I did with my Etching stuff and my Milling machine. When I actually manage to get a drawing right I produce some nice parts, which invariably become the masters for a resin mould. Now I think that is 'Building from Scratch as well'
None of this is any big deal, I do what I enjoy and so do hundreds of others out there, don't knock them, there are building from scratch as far as they can as well, besides its all fun, no matter how you do it, long may it all last.
Ron.
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I think perhaps that when someone does the work to produce a pattern, be it a mould for castings or a cad file for 3D printing or cnc, then the first item produced is 'scratchbuilt'. Subsequent items I'd personally class as 'production' and not scratch.
Just the way my mind works :-) . I think that as said by someone earlier the days of true scratchbuilding are probably gone anyway.
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We have, within the Display Team, a rather wonderful rendition of a World War One British Mark 1 tank. The model is entirely scratch built, from drawings produced using CAD, plus extensive measuring of the only Mark 1 at the Bovington Tank Museum. The project has been many years in build and uses entirely modern techniques. The entire model was designed first in Google Sketch up, now in a more sophisticated program whose name escapes me. The major hull parts were designed by the builder, then out sourced to a laser cutting firm. The inner core being ply, then clad with aluminium. Track parts were designed in house and a master 3D printed by Shapeways. This was then sent to a lost wax casting company where 180 plus copies were produced in metal. The track plates cut and pressed on a couple of metal forming tools using hand produced master parts. The detail parts were either 3D printed in the kitchen or the finer parts, once designed, outsourced again to Shapeways. The model is now mostly complete, and has been run at a number of shows ( I managed to inflict some serious damage on it at a show in May! ), should be at the Southern Model Show in early september.
My point being this, the model has been seen 'in build' at many shows over the last four years. The members all pitch in when anybody shows interest in the construction and the challenges encountered in the design of the model. Discussion with members of the public and fellow modellers alike lead me to the conclusion that despite the outsourcing of laser cutting etc, this is a true scratch build the modeller can be proud of, and represents a 21st century scratch build, as opposed to the more traditional, and immensely worthy scratch builds of previous years.
We must embrace the new while being grateful for what has gone before, on the shoulders of giants and all that....
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It would be utterly pointless to try and discourage technological developments which assist in building the model you want. All innovations should be embraced. The fact that they may drive a coach and horses through some traditional competition scoring systems is just collateral damage!
Competitions are still possible, they simply require the builder to state clearly exactly what they have done and that the judges are savvy enough to be able to evaluate these statements to make valid comparisons between models. A tall order maybe, but certainly not impossible but you do have to have confidence in the judgement of the judges!
Colin
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"and represents a 21st century scratch build, as opposed to the more traditional, and immensely worthy scratch builds of previous years. ".
Perhaps this the way forward with this; is the model scratch built using 20th century technology, no 3D printing or 21st 3D printing, laser cutting, cad lathing etc allowed?
:- Scratch built class 1 or 2
Just a thought
Chris
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This has been an excellent discussion, gentlemen, and I have learned much about scratch building and what goes into it, plus the pro's and cons of the topic.
it was all brought about by a prejudged concept that using 3D printers was, for want of a better word, "cheating", but now having listened to all the arguments for, and not so many, against 3D printed fittings I can see it is the way forward to get the best finish possible on a model.
I was incredibly impressed by the standard of fittings on the new Shannon lifeboat kit from Speedline models, and certainly look forward to seeing a finished model and kit. I better get saving.
Thank you all.
Jim
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After having read all the arguments for and against, all I can say is "Thank goodness I don't enter any competitions" %)
Peter.
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Nor does hardly anyone else Peter!
Colin
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All I can say is 'thank god I don't have to JUDGE any competitions!'
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"Competitions are still possible, they simply require the builder to state clearly exactly what they have done and that the judges are savvy enough to be able to evaluate these statements to make valid comparisons between models. A tall order maybe, but certainly not impossible but you do have to have confidence in the judgement of the judges!"
But modern technology allows the builder to take lots of photos showing progress so there shouldn't be any problem working out what came from where assuming they supply the details.
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Many years ago, I remember 2 gentlemen being snooty about a newcomers model. Why?, Because he had commercial radio gear, 'proper' modelers made their own. Times change and so must we, our boats are for enjoying, so we should do whatever it takes to enjoy our own without deriding others efforts.
I think the above comment is mainly right, to which I add that as materials and processes become available to us, they help move the goal posts of what Scratch building means. Once, all we could do was go out and carve a piece of round timber up. Then saws and wood processing systems made plywood and impregnated wood sheets available to us. Then plastic became available from a chemical proessing plant at which point various polimers such as the resins and sheet plastics, and of course their adhesives, became readily available. Now our input designing the item in a compatible file allows us to create digitally a form or collection of forms to be printed.
At the moment, we go to Shapeways because they have the accumen to purchase and operate the machines sophisticated enough to produce what we have designed in a reasonable quality, but I predict that in the next decade, we will be able to purchase second and third generation desk top printers in which we can print our own designs thus technically producing our own parts. We might not have a floor covered with shavings and primer dust, but we will still have created our own piece from our own research and creative effort.
In the end all I can say is enjoy your hobby how ever you excercise it and don't lose sleep over perameters.
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The problem the judges would have is to weigh the various applications of modern technology against more traditional practices as there are simply too many methods to be codified and set down in writing with appropriate points weightings. It's a bit of an apples and pears situation and requires something akin to artistic judgement rather than applying a fixed set of rules.
Colin
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The problem the judges would have is to weigh the various applications of modern technology against more traditional practices as there are simply too many methods to be codified and set down in writing with appropriate points weightings. It's a bit of an apples and pears situation and requires something akin to artistic judgement rather than applying a fixed set of rules.
Colin
Not only that, but the goalposts will keep moving. It is the nature of the beast, technology will progress, somebody will always be first with a new idea.
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And they will always discover a loophole in the rules which the compilers have missed.
Colin
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This is my scratchbuilt boat.
I made it out of bits and pieces
Some I made, some I bought and
some fell off the model next to mine
so I stuck them on mine.
If I dont win I'm going home and not
coming to any more shows <*<
Nef
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Trophies take too much polishing...
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Trophies take too much polishing...
.........although it is not unknown for people to actually buy trophies. {:-{
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Isn't 3D printing akin to the likes of using a bandsaw, power tools, dremel etc.
In other words another tool.
Therefore it is not scratch building.
As for competitions are they still relevant???
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As far as I, personally, am concerned, if I build a model from plans, and it's not a kit, it's scratch built <*< Simple. Others may have a different view %)
Peter.
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Isn't 3D printing akin to the likes of using a bandsaw, power tools, dremel etc.
In other words another tool.
Therefore it is not scratch building.
As for competitions are they still relevant???
There is a great deal of skill required to operate a 3D printer. Contrary to what the advertising would lead you to believe there is still quite a bit of tinkering required on all the current range of 3D printers if you want to get the best quality/most accurate prints.
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I scratchbuild 95% of my models, not only because I have the skills to do so, but it is the pleasure of knowing that whatever the problem to overcome you eventually master it and move on to the next problem.
What I would say is yes you can turn your own bearings, make your own props etc etc, but why? when the commercially available ones are as good as (maybe better!) what you could produce over a period of time, you can buy off the shelf in moments and save the work for other more intricate/delicate parts.
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.........although it is not unknown for people to actually buy trophies. {:-{
Which are probably made with the use of a 3D printer {-) {-)
John
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I scratchbuild 95% of my models, not only because I have the skills to do so, but it is the pleasure of knowing that whatever the problem to overcome you eventually master it and move on to the next problem.
What I would say is yes you can turn your own bearings, make your own props etc etc, but why? when the commercially available ones are as good as (maybe better!) what you could produce over a period of time, you can buy off the shelf in moments and save the work for other more intricate/delicate parts.
I think that if you can get the size of props you need for the right price then definitly go for the commercial route. I bought a ship with six props though and cannot get them left handed and the right number of blades in the right diameter in brass without spending a small fortune and so am making my own props from brass sheet and bosses (well I will do once I have finished another project)
As Essex says about printers, I recall early paper printers being the same and assume that one day the 3d variety will become self calibrating.
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If you do the cad drawings yourself, then print them, its scratchbuilding ...simples..
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Isn't 3D printing akin to the likes of using a bandsaw, power tools, dremel etc.
In other words another tool.
Therefore it is not scratch building.
You'd prefer it if we gnawed a boat out of wood with our teeth?
Scratch building is constructing a facsimile from not-a-kit.
If it involves the option of buying-in a number of detail parts produced by 3d printing, I'd be happy to call it scratch-built.
Andy
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Even the late Brian King embraced 'modern' technology in his scratch built models - I am sure I read in one of his books how he designed and had etched a brass filigree detail for one of his Victorian battleships - which obviously won some awards.....
As for 3D printing being or not being considered a part of scratch building, I would fall on the side of it BEING so. When designing our first kit, the Free Enterprise ferry, I took the early decision to embrace the 3D print concept for the majority of the fittings to enable some extremely fine detail to be produced at 1:96 - an example being this winch:
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/carlmtflo/Free%20Enterprise%20V/FEV%20241015-4_zpsojfcobb7.jpg)
And all this foredeck detail:
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/carlmtflo/Free%20Enterprise%20V/FEV%20241015-1_zpsfbrqwmna.jpg)
Now, some of this could be moulded and resin cast....but the winch most certainly cannot.
Is it scratch built? Not when it is used as a part of the kit, but when I produced the prototype model then, yes, I considered it to be scratch built. The design of the winch on the computer took me the best part of 50 hours. I, personally, don't have the skill to make something like this by hand, but I have the skill and thought processes to design it in the computer for the machine to print it out. Much like a skilled person on a lathe has to think through what he is doing to produce the individual parts and then assemble them.
Personally, I think 3D printing IS the future for the detail parts of our hobby. There will always be those with the skill to craft by hand but, unfortunately, their number is decreasing. The advantages of 3D printing over whitemetal casting include weight saving and increased possibility of detail. The disadvantage at the moment is cost - there is over £125 worth of 3D fittings in each of our FEV ferry kits...a quite considerable proportion of the kit cost.....but I feel this is justified by the better detail, accuracy and strength of the fittings.
Anyone fancy having a go at scratch building this?
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/carlmtflo/Free%20Enterprise%20V/160715-1_zpsbtojysa4.jpg)
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/carlmtflo/Free%20Enterprise%20V/160715-2_zpsjky0qcov.jpg)
(http://i513.photobucket.com/albums/t339/carlmtflo/Free%20Enterprise%20V/160715-3_zpsuk0eq0ag.jpg)
Every seat identical...........................
Pip pip!!!
Carl 8)