Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: John W E on October 13, 2016, 06:19:48 PM

Title: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: John W E on October 13, 2016, 06:19:48 PM
just after reading some of the topics and all of the whining going on about how much things cost and things not working properly when still in the experimenting stage and not speaking to suppliers before complaining on open forums - and then off they go over to Hong Kong and other countries looking for the cheapest deal that they can get - and when it all goes wrong - oh the moans :-)

The reason I am thinking this I have a friend, who has just spent, without batting an eyelid 8 grand on an  EWS engine plus another 6 grand on further electronics modifications digital I think - he isn't rich, he just enjoys his hobby - he says if he wants good reliable stuff he pays for it - like the rest of his friends  who do model rail hobby.   Its got me thinking hahah I think model boaters may fall into the category of being some of the tightest bunch :-)

John
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: C-3PO on October 13, 2016, 06:37:47 PM
- he isn't rich,
John

Really - 14k on a single model ! - Who are you kidding!

C-3PO
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Arrow5 on October 13, 2016, 06:51:00 PM
Yes, they squeak when they walk  O0  BTW way you have a PM, local knowledge request.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Crossie on October 13, 2016, 06:57:09 PM



 Wow! 14,000 for a couple of model items is serious money in my language whether train, plane or boat, his railway set-up must have cost many times that then, and even if it may be used for many years to come it is more than 10 years hobby spend to me and I consider myself pretty well off - no mortgage/HP/card debt etc.


 I think though that there is one fundamental difference between these two particular hobbies, where apart from radio, motors and so on just about anything e.g, fittings, props, shafts, rudders can be made to greater or lesser degrees of perfection by not all, but very many boat modellers, and I very much doubt that many railway enthusiasts have the engineering facilities to make train wheels, cylinders and linkages and all the very many turned items which apart from any sheet metal, constitute the locomotive or rolling stock. Similarly some branches of aeromodelling such as gas turbine/ turboprop models are solely for those with lots of cash(or credit!) and a mere handful of highly skilled machinists.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: John W E on October 13, 2016, 07:04:29 PM
 :-)  here's a pic of the engine - he also bought track and other bits and pieces to go with it - but, like I say, he isn't rich and doesn't whine on about stuff when it goes wrong and he doesn't go looking for the cheapest of stuff.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: malcolmfrary on October 13, 2016, 07:17:50 PM
The appropriate description having laid out 14K on a hobby is "not rich now".
I took up boats as a way of spending time without spending too much money that my family thought should go on stuff like food, clothes, mortgage.  But yes, cheapskates covers many of us, some by choice, some because that's the way that it is.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: NFMike on October 13, 2016, 07:20:37 PM
At smaller scales I think railway modellers can be just as tight as boat. But as with boats when the sizes get larger so do the prices.

That said the loco above looks like #1 which I'd expect to be maybe 1k-3 depending on make, so 8k does seem a lot if it's just an electric job.
OTOH if it has a real multi-cylinder i/c engine in it then I can well believe the tag.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: plastic on October 13, 2016, 07:22:31 PM
14k on a model strikes me as someone who knows nothing about anything - and is unbable to spot when people are taking the urine.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Netleyned on October 13, 2016, 07:24:55 PM
14K ?


Could have got a new one for that  O0


Ned
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: inertia on October 13, 2016, 07:30:34 PM
John
While I agree with you completely I have to remind you that it was in North Shields that I was challenged to haggle over the price of a 380 motor mount (list price 1.50).  Only a Sand-Dancer would think there was any mileage in trying that!
It's probably all down to age and disposable income i.e. too much of one and not enough of the other. My opinion of buying the cheapest possible items from suppliers halfway round the world is too well-known to bear repeating here.
Dave M
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: John W E on October 13, 2016, 07:31:32 PM
just been having a look round on the web to see how much the aircraft people spend on their models - cos - I know some their jet engines aren't cheap and when it all goes wrong for them - they end up putting their mess in a binbag and they do have something to whinge about but instead I got sidetracked - anybody fancy purchasing a jet engine - you want to see the model I am going to put this in - and will need a canny ACTion speed controller for this one Dave :-) and that wont come from Hong Kong hahaha




http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROLLS-ROYCE-PEGASUS-105-JET-TURBINE-ENGINE-HARRIER-/302104455254

Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: inertia on October 13, 2016, 08:02:41 PM
John
Get back on your medication...NOW!!!
DM
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Liverbudgie on October 13, 2016, 08:13:05 PM
To give a general answer the question I would have to say yes they are I'm afraid.

LB
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Nemo on October 13, 2016, 08:43:34 PM
John, I hope that if there was an emotican with a 'tongue in cheek' you would have used it! All I can say is - how can you compare your (non!) rich friend with a genuine modeller and typical member of Mayhem who only wishes value for his money and good service? 
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Crossie on October 13, 2016, 09:44:41 PM



 While reading through this thread I remembered that one of my now adult nephews was a model train hobbyist years ago- -may still be possibly- - though his setup was HO gauge,  so I've spent a little ''Googletime'' reading about N gauge which although a bigger scale is still only 32mm track, so not exactly large and the most expensive locomotive that I found listed anywhere was only a couple of c and definitely not k.  A lot less zeros after the . so there must be something really special about the loco pictured ,and how much track, a km maybe?
 14,000 would buy a lot of boats, hmmmm.... 3 Engle Type viic's , a couple of Deans Dreadnought, Zulu, Model Slipway Assurance , Trent lifeboat ooh and a few Coasters and stuff. Better leave a couple of grand to hire some builders, I won't have enough time %%
           
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Peter Fitness on October 13, 2016, 10:44:42 PM
John, what scale/gauge is that loco? It looks quite large from the photo.


Peter.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: NFMike on October 13, 2016, 10:47:41 PM
While reading through this thread I remembered that one of my now adult nephews was a model train hobbyist years ago- -may still be possibly- - though his setup was HO gauge,  so I've spent a little ''Googletime'' reading about N gauge which although a bigger scale is still only 32mm track, so not exactly large and the most expensive locomotive that I found listed anywhere was only a couple of c and definitely not k.  A lot less zeros after the . so there must be something really special about the loco pictured ,and how much track, a km maybe?
N gauge is smaller (about half) than H0 - 9mm track. 32mm track goes with Gauge 1 (aka #1) or G-scale depending on the prototype. There are plenty of LGB (G Scale) locos well into 4-figure money.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: ballastanksian on October 13, 2016, 10:48:59 PM
'N' gauge is about 9mm, I think you mean 'G' gauge which uses 32mm wide track.

I think, many hobbyists of all flavours are 'tight'. But this might be a response to it being funded by disposable income. As mentioned, may of us have a very finite budget and we must make it work as hard as possible.

I will not buy far east product as many of my friends have had fun with magic grey smoke and erratic behaviour from ESCs and receivers so, while I accept that many of the components that our indigenous companies use come from the Far east, I hope they test a batch of them first to make sure they are not faulty.

Having had experience with the larger gauges of live steam and similar locos at my old modelengineer club, the better ones will cost many thousands of pounds. I think that an IC engine for such a model especially a multi cylinder one would be a very costly asset.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Colin Bishop on October 13, 2016, 10:59:56 PM
I do get the impression that a number of people do chase the lowest prices even when they can afford better but a bargain is not always a bargain. I like to decide what I want and then get the best deal on that and am willing to pay a bit more to get exactly what I want or to support the UK retail trade.

As our wise sage Dave Milbourn never tires of reminding us, value for money doesn't always mean the cheapest price. I buy my petrol from my independent local village filling station. It costs me an extra 1p or so per litre over Tesco prices but I get a branded product and support a local business. If they closed then my nearest alternative is around 5 miles away.

Colin
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Crossie on October 13, 2016, 11:39:46 PM

N gauge is smaller (about half) than H0 - 9mm track. 32mm track goes with Gauge 1 (aka #1) or G-scale depending on the prototype. There are plenty of LGB (G Scale) locos well into 4-figure money.


 Thanks for putting me straight Plague! I certainly got my railway alphabet mixed up there and I'm lost as to why I thought N gauge , so time for a snack of Humble Pie. Personally I've only ever had two model trains, in the 1950's a Triang (00 possibly?) as a child and a 5" Simplex live steam that I built as an adult which only cost a few 100's to build though that was 20 odd years ago.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Chris57 on October 14, 2016, 12:26:16 AM
Is this question of  cheapskateness more a question of cost and available funds? Or perceptions?


By this I mean, if you have a smaller budget, would that point you towards model boats as being a potentially cheaper option when compared to planes , helecopters, cars or giros, which all can ( and therefore will) fall out of the sky with expensive consequences.?


I believe this is why the retail industry ( shops) more and more cater for the air side of the r/c hobby, because of the more lucrative repair and upgrade market associated with it. Boats, whilst sometimes expensive up front as a kit of bits, has less scope for repair and upgrades, so no on going cash cow for the shops.


So boaters are not seen to spend money every weekend in the model shop , and are thus perceived to be 'tight' and cheapskates . Whereas in fact we are merely being prudent. Build it once, build it right, don't drop it, ( the only way it can fall out of the sky) no more to spend.


This argument does accept there will be exceptions within the boating community, fast racers will get hurt at speed, steam propulsion is an expensive side of the hobby etc.


Just some late night rambling thoughts!


Chris
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: derekwarner on October 14, 2016, 02:45:27 AM
Now Plague says......."There are plenty of LGB...."

In OZ....we may or may not hold a plebiscite on same sex marriage  %)........there is certainly plenty of talk about LGB, however I suspect it may have a different meaning to that suggested here....the scale of model train's?  {-)

Mind you ...we had a National Census conducted a few weeks back....they could have saved $27M if they asked the same question then

However I do apologise to the Rule maker DM........if I am getting a little away from the question of...'are model makers tight a**ed individuals?' {-)

Derek
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Klunk on October 14, 2016, 06:20:43 AM
For those that remember, I was speaking to John of Model Power many years ago at Warwick. He said of all the shows HD did, boat shows were the worst. He said model cars and flyers along with the helicopter peeps just went yo his stall, asked for the volt and amp battery and the type they wanted and handed over the cash. At model boat shows they came  up, asked the same criteria, then asked for a discount!
Now remember,  all the other disciplines use their batteries heavily, where as boaters unless they were fast electric users, tend not to drain the batteries to much after a couple of hours sailing
So are model boaters tight......
You bet we are!


As a side note.......how many of you bought the blue 50 amp esc's about 8 years ago for 4.
Then got the 100 amp versions that contained magic smoke!
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Brian60 on October 14, 2016, 07:28:39 AM
I'm sorry but spending 14grand not on a hobby but just two pieces that go to make a hobby is definitely the province of somebody who has lots of cash. The average person couldn't afford to do it -- Hell I'd even blanch and think twice about spending that sort of money on a car!

It does open another question though, How much has the rest of his railway cost??? I'd hazard a guess at it being more than the cost of a semi detached home!
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Hellboy Paul on October 14, 2016, 07:38:42 AM
John, what scale/gauge is that loco? It looks quite large from the photo.


Looks like a 7 1/4" gauge class 66 loco, if it is the one I think it is it's a kit is produced by Abbots Model Engineering. The basic 4 motor kit starts at 4000 and goes up from there, so depending on what you want to add 14000 is not unreasonable....


Paul...
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: roycv on October 14, 2016, 08:59:14 AM
Hi all, an interesting debate.  I think a point for consideration is where we come from, technically that is. 
Many boaters make their models from a much lower start point, choosing a plan and assembling the where withall to create a model.  Model railway devotees  have the choice of buying an engine / carriage, etc  or admiring it from afar.

Take the point mentioned about batteries.  I remember some years ago asking if the (well known) trader had any bargains, he showed me some 9.6 volt 1.6Ahr batteries, nobody wanted at less than half the going rate.
I bought a pair and now I had a power supply I used the apporopriate motors and esc and battery charger (adjusted to suit) for this model. (Still going strong).  It saved some money to fund something else on the model.

I think a boater sees the component parts and decides what he/she wants to pay for and what he/she is capable of making, time = money.
Many of us are pleased that we can re cycle common and household items into parts of a model.

My current 'game' is to build a semiscale model only using accumulated items that are already in my workshop.   (See my Nordfjord else where on this site).  I have a second model also  nearly finished  and 'money neutral'.

I am also constructing a small model railway in the workshop but this is what I call 'self funding'  If I want a capitol item I sell something I am not using.  If my son sees a 'bargain' on ebay and wins it and sends it to me who am I to refuse?
It is difficult to construct an "OO" gauge loco from everyday items, if not impossible so you have to join that hobby with deeper pockets.
The ability to machine parts for oneself is a dieing art so we are dependent on others and there are now many kitchen industries to cater for this.

For example if you are building a large live steam loco then having the frames laser cut is a no-brainer, it is cheaper less effort and more accurate in a place where you need accuracy.

So I would say 'no' we are not cheapskates, just a bit more capable!

regards Roy
(also Secretary of a Model engineering society)


Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on October 14, 2016, 01:38:03 PM
YES....no...sometimes!

It is nice to see a railway modeller who isn't one.....surely an exception to the rule O0
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: plastic on October 14, 2016, 02:10:10 PM
I would guess that the RC cars & planes / drones are mainly bought by 'younger' enthusiasts who are probably less worldly wise and have a now, now, now - must buy/have compulsion.

Most boaters that I have met are more 'mature' and so are happy to wait things out and to look for a proper price rather than just throw money at things.

Also, I look at some battleships that are absolutely covered in fittings - guns, railings, bollards, hatches, lifeboats, radars, winches, cranes, aircraft,   etc. and then you see sellers wanting 5 each and upwards for those fittings and you quickly do the maths - it adds up to be crazy expensive to get the ship on the water unless you search out bargains or learn to make your own fittings.

Railway modellers seem to be different - almost everything in their layouts is off the shelf - they seem to just accept the constant emptying of their wallets.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Nemo on October 14, 2016, 03:45:10 PM
I completely agree Plastic. Spending cash like that for a train-set is not a hobby - period! >:-o More like Harry Enfield's character in a model shop.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: John W E on October 14, 2016, 04:19:18 PM
I completely agree Plastic. Spending cash like that for a train-set is not a hobby - period! >:-o More like Harry Enfield's character in a model shop.

so basically what you are saying is those folk who build these large scale models and literally spend thousands on the castings etc., are bonkers and its not really a hobby with them ... if you wish to go to the other end of the scale; in the modelling field - I have just been looking at Warhammer stuff and look at some of the prices of their kits/bits and pieces and that has a huge following by young kids up to adults.

The comment with regard to railway modellers seem to be different - mostly everything comes off the shelf - not correct, you need to look at the railway hobby - there are lots of things scratch built from plans - just look at the buildings etc. and model engines - if you think we have a bad case of rivet counters in the model boating fraternity - have a look at some of the YouTube videos about model rail layouts etc.

I sat and watched a bloke completely reconstruct a Dapol kit cos it wasn't quite in scale.
john
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: plastic on October 14, 2016, 04:45:07 PM
so basically what you are saying is those folk who build these large scale models and literally spend thousands on the castings etc., are bonkers and its not really a hobby with them ... if you wish to go to the other end of the scale; in the modelling field - I have just been looking at Warhammer stuff and look at some of the prices of their kits/bits and pieces and that has a huge following by young kids up to adults.

The comment with regard to railway modellers seem to be different - mostly everything comes off the shelf - not correct, you need to look at the railway hobby - there are lots of things scratch built from plans - just look at the buildings etc. and model engines - if you think we have a bad case of rivet counters in the model boating fraternity - have a look at some of the YouTube videos about model rail layouts etc.

I sat and watched a bloke completely reconstruct a Dapol kit cos it wasn't quite in scale.
john

I would disagree with you about railway modellers - if you go to any show or see layouts at club displays, I would estimate 95% of the bits you see are off the shelf. There is always a hard-core of modellers who build everything from scratch - but most railway stuff is off the shelf - although 'some assembly required' for the buildings and roling stock models.

The main part that the modellers 'build' is the base-board landscape - but most of these are 2-dimensional flat 'shunting yards'.
The most notable fashion that I have seen emerging with railways is 'how slow can you go!' - electronic speed controllers allowing them to take 2 hours to move 10 feet. Exactly following their timetables.....
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: John W E on October 14, 2016, 05:20:08 PM
have a look at this one - scratch built for Peter Waterman - I know he does have a healthy bank balance like :-) 

 when I have been to Model Engineering displays - some of the layouts have been built from plans etc. even down to the track - if you have a look at PECO website some of their stuff can be used for scratch building.  I think it gives you a better idea/assessment of what some people do with regard to scratch building :-)

John

https://blog.the-saleroom.com/coming-up-at-auction/model-railway-fans-chuffed-chance-buy-pete-waterman-collection/
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: plastic on October 14, 2016, 05:31:03 PM
have a look at this one - scratch built for Peter Waterman - I know he does have a healthy bank balance like :-) 

 when I have been to Model Engineering displays - some of the layouts have been built from plans etc. even down to the track - if you have a look at PECO website some of their stuff can be used for scratch building.  I think it gives you a better idea/assessment of what some people do with regard to scratch building :-)

John

https://blog.the-saleroom.com/coming-up-at-auction/model-railway-fans-chuffed-chance-buy-pete-waterman-collection/ (https://blog.the-saleroom.com/coming-up-at-auction/model-railway-fans-chuffed-chance-buy-pete-waterman-collection/)

Doesn't he normally work in 1:1 scale?
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: tica on October 14, 2016, 06:12:18 PM
For my part it's a Yes and a No

For my expendables boats (swap boats, jet boats and plastic fantastic) I will always use the cheap HK and EBAY items, this including the orange RX combined with a DX7 Spectrum TX.

So radio wise I'll use a quality brand, I have 3 Spektrum and 2 Graupner HoTT TX's. Unfortunately the Grupner RX is way to expensive compared to what the can provide 

In my Drumbeat of Devon I use a quality Leadgell cell and had 2 Graupner Navy R30 ESC that worked well (one did how ever release the magic grey smoke the second time I used it  <*< ) and they both burned out when she did the dive to the bottom last year  <:( They will be replaced by a dual ESC during this winter as a test.

I have experienced that some of the Grupner Navy ESC's are not the money worth, some of my usurers on my Danish forum have had problems with them as they did become very hot without load and burned out, I tested some of them and found that they actually had a idle load of 250mAh and that's expensive ESC's. 

So I use a bit of every thing and I'm prepared to pay good money for a superb model, but most of them are found out side Denmark and the pick up cost is ruining that.
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: inertia on October 14, 2016, 07:17:42 PM
Tica
As there is, to my knowledge, only one 'dual ESC' on the market (ACTion P94) I checked the price for posting one to Denmark. With insurance it's a little less than 10 Euro.
(Three hearty cheers for "Brexit" and the plummeting pound.)
PM me if you want further details.
DM
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: Nemo on October 14, 2016, 07:51:30 PM
so basically what you are saying is those folk who build these large scale models and literally spend thousands on the castings etc., are bonkers and its not really a hobby with them ... if you wish to go to the other end of the scale; in the modelling field - I have just been looking at Warhammer stuff and look at some of the prices of their kits/bits and pieces and that has a huge following by young kids up to adults.
The comment with regard to railway modellers seem to be different - mostly everything comes off the shelf - not correct, you need to look at the railway hobby - there are lots of things scratch built from plans - just look at the buildings etc. and model engines - if you think we have a bad case of rivet counters in the model boating fraternity - have a look at some of the YouTube videos about model rail layouts etc.
I sat and watched a bloke completely reconstruct a Dapol kit cos it wasn't quite in scale.john

I was not referring to railway modellers in general at all, but as the OP is about the purchase of a particular train, I was referring to the purchaser of an extremely expensive, ready-built locomotive (which I doubt most railway types would ever build) and others who buy them as, in my opinion hardly credible hobbyists. It may depend on your definition of a hobby, but at least us boaters (or the majority of us)who  build our vessels and use our hands and minds on the finished object have a true hobby, not the wherewithal to buy the completely finished object. If you consider buying an object and simply owning it is a 'hobby' then fair enough.  This is my humble opinion, and you're implying that I thought some 'bonkers' is, well, ................ bonkers! 
Title: Re: Are model boaters Cheapskaters
Post by: NFMike on October 14, 2016, 10:51:23 PM
The first definition of "hobby" I found is: an activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
(That matches what my understanding of the term has always been)


So buying expensive toys is just as valid a hobby as watching TV.
Is the man buying the expensive loco a modeller? I don't know - I don't class buying RTR things as modelling but he may also make small replicas of things in which case he is a modeller who also has another expensive hobby.