Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: crabbersnipe on November 03, 2016, 04:57:41 pm
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I thought I'd try my hand at my own full framed and planked model for a change, rather than procure a GRP hull off the shelf.
Have full a full frames and sheer line drawings for a Leander class GP frigate, and am considering one of the first batch of narrow-beam and gun Leanders, probably in their mid 70's guise.
Am still considering the name of the exact vessel, as I am hesitating between a Variable Depth Sonar ship or not - no two Leanders were alike. I have decided that my model will have a rounded stem, as again, some of the later variants had a straight stem - I would be indebted to anyone who could provide me with a list of ships that fall in either category, as this is only partially documented.
As I have a good set of photographs of HMS Argonaut, I will temporarily dub this build as this vessel, but I may still change the name as I go along.
The photographs show the first set of frames, as well as a copy of the ship's plan. I am working off the Jecobin drawings, which are really good.
The frames are cut from 2 mm plywood, but it is clear that the main frames will need to be thicker and am doubling them up so as to get to 3 and 4 mm thickness. I am using the thinner ones a in-between supports along the hull.
As this model may become R/C, I have also been cutting out the insides of the frames to allow for motors and batteries.
This is a bit of a quantum leap in terms of my skills, never having tried a fully planked hull, and especially not one with as may convex and concave lines as a Leander but hey ho, can only fail once :-) . Once planked I intend to cover everything with GRP, which will be another first.
The goal is to have the hull finished towards the end of winter.
Will keep you posted, and will no doubt be asking you forum members for tonnes of advice between now and then !
Eric
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a flat and true building board, extend all frames and profiles to a common line, build using the up side down method..
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/qnPYOL.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/ipqnPYOLj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/538/k57vyO.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/eyk57vyOj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/911/rceQny.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/pbrceQnyj)
this was for a mold plug but the method is the same for a framed hull, just add some pre-cut sections at deck line on the frames..
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Thanks and impressive looking model. Is she a battleship of the QE class ?
Question: how will you be removing the model from the building board once the hull has been fully planked ? With a hacksaw ?
cheers
E
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Hi.
Looking at that profile is it really a Leander class of the 1960s era? or heavily disguissed?
Rich
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Yes......the images from tghsmith with the tumble home %) .....may be the one eight-ship Leander class of Light Cruisers operational from 1933 ....
Eric indicated a Leander Frigate which are a later build Class from the 60's to the 90's ............... Derek
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More likely even older Derek.
The hull plug is not named.
Just shown as an example
of plank on frame.
Not neccessarily a Leander at all.
Ned
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More likely even older Derek.
The hull plug is not named.
Just shown as an example
of plank on frame.
Not neccessarily a Leander at all.
Ned
Is it not the USS MINNEAPOLIS
http://temposenzatempo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/12/the-navy-band-of-uss-minneapolis.html
john
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quick drawing of a sample frame for a planked or sheeted hull(photos were for a plug hull for a mold, same idea) once the hull is planked it can be "cut away" at the dotted lines.. a razor saw or japaneese type pull saw make this fast work.. I "spot weld" the frame bases to the building board with a hot glue gun, fast, easy and with a little heat (heat gun or wife's hair dryer) and a scraper the board is ready for the next hull..when marking out frames make allowances for hull and deck material thickness.. the baseline and the centerline must be dead square..
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/924/sKQyBz.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/posKQyBzj)
more frames are better than thicker frames (vesuvius)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/717/dsc02330y.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/jxdsc02330yj)
the common baseline handles an uneven deck line..
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/922/Oo2CgF.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmOo2CgFj)
and yes, tumblehome is fun...
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/845/elig.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nheligj)
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Hi Eric
May I suggest you read through some of the articles which are in the Master Build section of this forum. Amongst them, you will find, several articles dedicated to helping with plank on frame using a building board. Although the articles aren't directly linked to building a warship style of hull - the method can be transferred straight over.
There are several thoughts around using building boards - for some reason - some folk like to build a hull, keel down on the building board - supported with blocks (like building a life-sized vessel). Using this particular method, we normally have to install the main deck, as well as all of the frames, to make sure the framework stays rigid whilst building it.
The other method is, obviously, where we build the hull upside down on the building board which has (in my eyes) several advantages.. The main one is - it holds the frames all rigid and in line without the need of fitting a deck - so, we can basically plank it straight away. The golden rule really for this is - do not remove the hull from the building board, until it is finished as far as it has been fibre glassed or whatever, smoothed and painted. Even with the building board - you can mark off the waterline, using the building board as a baseline - because under normal circumstances the waterline will be parallel to the building board.
I know one of the things you are concerned about is fastening the frames to the building board. There are several methods to this as well. My chosen method is to use one inch square planed blocks of wood, which will go across the full length of the building board - to which the frame is located and then the block is located and screwed to the building board in the correct position.
There are also those who like to use a commercially available steel square strap, the type which is used when you use 2 pieces of wood joined together at 90 degrees, you see them in hardware shops.
I tend to avoid gluing frames to the building board - as when we are pinning and securing planks the frames, if you hit them too hard, they can break away. You have then to somehow secure them and hope they are in line.
I have put several links on for you - one of them is HMS York; which I built several years ago.
What I suggest is have a look to see how I have located it on the building board and also how I only needed 5 mm thick plywood for the frames. This was extremely good quality plywood - it was expensive - nearly £30 a sheet measuring 4ft x 1ft - but to me worth it - cos it is guaranteed not to have any voids in the centre - and also, the faces of the material are pure and honest birch - very little splitting when cutting it.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15073.0.html
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,7947.0.html
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13888.0.html
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,33734.0.html
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,354.50.html
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Years long ago, I remember when walking through the last Leander class accommodation, there used to be on several of them models of their namesakes pre WW1. I do not know which warehouse they where sent to when the vessels were scrapped, but they were very impressive in detailed, about 4 to 5 feet in length. But that hull/plug looks really impressive, look forward to seeing the finished model.
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Thanks for alL the photographs, tips and hints from all of you - very useful and this will come in handy as I progress.
Am trying to upload some snapshots of where I currently stand with the Argonaut, but she is indeed the 1960s Leander class frigate.
I will be building her in her original gun configuration, prior to the Exocet conversion.
Have decided on a keel-up, upside-down approach, with the frames fixed to a square block of wood at a sufficient height to allow for the raised forecastle and giving me the sheer I need.
Have been taking photographs during my build using my mobile phone, and despite having compressed & zipped them to more manageable proportions they still seem to exceed the 300K limit for posting on the forum ? Does anyone know how to resolve this ?
Bluebird, I clearly stand to learn an awful lot from your model of HMS York, and would be very obliged if you could elaborate a little more once I hit the glass fibre stage - noticed you have also covered your planked hull, this will be another first for me...but first, trying to complete my planking.
Cheers & thanks again to all.
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Some snapshots
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And a few more
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Managed to resize - hope you will enjoy
E
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Last batch for today
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Bit of an update, latest work - some spots will require quite a bit of putty as can be seen.
Also did some partial sanding on the bow section.
Eric
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Beautiful hull lines crabber :-))......if you intend to glass the internals, best leave the external sanding until that is completed
The glass reinforcement provides great rigidity and near eliminates any spring in the planking whilst sanding
Derek
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Hi Derek,
Thanks for this and yes, a good idea - it might mean I'll have to remove the hull from its support and turn it over, in order to do the inside first. Am a little reluctant to undertake this, but there certainly is merit in your suggestion, it will undoubtedly strengthen things considerably.
As far as the outside is concerned, what would you suggest to be the next step - it is advisable to apply a primer coat first, before putting on the glass fibre, and is the sanded hull best left just a little rough ? Or is it better to sand things as smooth as possible ? Does it matter a great deal in terms of adhesion ?
Any advice from forum members is welcome in this respect, I expect the planked hull to be finished towards the end of next week and have never undertaken any glass coating before. Would hate this to ruin my gracious hull forms :-)
Thanks
E
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Hullo again Eric ....a few observations %)
1. Planking is ~~ 3mm thick?
2. We see Z-Epoxy packaging , but are you using a polyurethane glue for the planking?
3. I am unsure of the wood specie you are using for the planking
The close spacing between your hull frames shows a very uniform fairing....this will minimise the amount of sanding to achieve flatness or smoothness of the hull surface :-))
So whilst I built a number of cedar planked hulls of similar length, I will stand aside here as we have many members with far more experience with glass fibre mat/tissue and resin coatings who will be able to offer comment....[there will also be a number of threads in our MBM archives]
I look forward to seeing your hull progress
Derek
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Hi Derek,
Most grateful for your help and advice, I stand to learn a lot still, this is only my first ever attempt.
In reply to your questions:
- planks are only 1 mm in thickness (although have been using 4mm, 6 mm and 10 mm widths for some sections)
- the strips are all obechi, very easy to work with
- the Z-epoxy tube in the background was used for my attempt at glass coating the funnel, but in terms of glue being used it is ordinary white wood glue (not sure if I picked the waterproof variant, come to think of it now !!)
Hadn't thought of cedar, suppose that works equally well ?
Must confess I am enjoying this whole planking exercise, am already thinking of another hull once this one is completed.
The main thing is to try and stick to maximally two planks every night, so as not to rush it. Need to tweak some of the frames quite considerably in certain spots (file/ sand down some, add a strip to others) - one of the lessons learned is to draft up a proper sheer line and set of 'corrected' drawings, once this hull is completed.
A commercially available GRP hull will probably save time and expense but the satisfaction obtained by building everything from scratch is quite pleasing.
Thanks again
E
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hi there Eric
Here is my suggestion of the way I normally do fibreglassing on a hull - this been covered many times as a topic on different methods of doing stuff.
Your hull is 1:96 scale I notice, which in my calculations works out at a model of 46 inches in length - I had a rough count and I think you may have about 31 frames - this should give you a frame spacing of roughly about 1.5 inches to 1.75 between centres of frames. This is quite close and I wouldn't think you would require any reinforcement in the internal of the hull, due to the spacing - the structure should be quite strong.
My method of fibreglassing the hull:
First of all, I give the whole of the hull a light sanding - filling in any gaps with spare pieces of timber and sanding rough edges off. I fill all large gaps with car body filler/P38 from the care autoshop. Sand the hull smoothly, but, do not worry too much about humps and bumps in the hull as yet. Give the hull a full coating of polyester resin with hardener mixed. No matting is used as yet. Work the resin into all of the joints and into all of the planking. Allow this to harden off; this procedure bonds the planks together and begins to seal the hull. Find the most coarse wet n dry you can find - normally I buy a number 60 sheet of wet n dry.
Give the whole of the hull a good rub down and you will remove a good bit of the resin you have put on.
When you have finished rubbing down you can fill all the humps and bumps again with car body filler. When you sand down this time, ensure you use sanding blocks - don't use your hands to hold the paper - wrap the paper around sanding block and sand the hull using this method.
When this is all done and the hull is nice and smooth - but not too smooth - I use fibre glass tissue matting; not the woven roven but fibre glass tissue matting - where the bond in the matting will dissolve when you use polyester resin with it. The bonding in the matting WILL NOT dissolve if you use epoxy resin. You have a chance of ending up with a mess.
Now, cut the matting into say 4 pieces - 2 per side - put them to one side - ensuring you know where they fit on the hull - because some places you are going to have to cut Vs into the matting to get it to fold nicely around the hull shape.
Coat the hull with fibre glass resin and hardener mixed and allow to go tacky.
Put another coating of resin on - say - starting at the bow and apply your first bit of matting and stapple the resin through the matting using a stiff brush or a small ring roller. This procedure is continued all the way around the hull. Apply resin, then apply matting on the top working the resin through. When this has all set - give the hull a further 2 coatings of polyester resin.
It will look like a ploughed field, but, this is where time and patience sets in. You start off with your coarse wet n dry, smoothing the hull and working your way through the various grades of wet n dry until you end up using the smooth wet n dry. All the time looking out for little hollows which can be filled with car body filler.
Finally, spray it with an undercoat, allow it to dry for at least 48 hours - and then a final rub down with the finest of fine wet n dry and this should reveal any small blemishes left in the hull. Air pockets which you may get, can be pricked out with a scalpel blade and can be filled in with car body filler. I suggest you read through the links that I have put on earlier on and this will give you pictures as well as written blurb :-)
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Hi Bluebird,
A million thanks and could not have hoped for any better instructions than these - appreciate your step-by-step narrative and the pitfalls to avoid....
Interesting to read about the glass tissue matting as opposed to the woven variants, as well as learning the difference between epoxy and polyester resins. It has arguably saved my hull !
I am quite keen to see how this will pan out, but judging from your explanations things should be ok as long as I take it gently and step by step.
Perhaps one last question, especially with winter at the doorstep: there appear to be a lot of 'warnings' about the ideal temperatures when letting the resin cure. As I am doing my modelbuilding in an unheated garage (suppose temperatures will fluctuate between 7 and 10° C), does this become an issue - or will such low temperatures merely prolong the drying process but not adversely affect the chemical reaction itself ?
Will not fail to let you know how I far, am hoping to complete the hull this weekend if not the next, and can then start looking into the fibreglassing process.
Thanks again, most appreciated your help with this
E
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http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,13888.msg133150.html#msg133150
:-))
john
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Cheers - sorry, got no further than your HMS YORK thread , now discovering the treasure cove in your other builds - just brilliant, thanks a million once more.
Just out of curiosity, and of little relevance to my current build, but reading through the HMS Exeter hull construction description couldn't help wondering - how did you achieve that crisp 'cut' in the typical cruiser knuckle in the bows - would this be achieved by means of some hard wood stringer-like insertion ? But how to avoid that being sanded and becoming rounded ?
Thanks
E
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A few more planks - almost there !
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Completed the hull planking, quite happy with things so far - need to do some finishing touches to the bow still (used some vertical strips that need sanding), and next step will be a rough sanding using 60 grade grit, before applying some resin into the joints.
After than some more sanding and applying filler where needed.
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Last batch
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Beautiful work, love to see a scratch built hull on the go! :-))
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Thanks Nick, some great curves in these hulls, planking was fun !
Have drawn some lessons for my next one hull:
- will need more stringers and had better put these in as soon as the frames are erected
- should have marked and drilled out the shaft alignments in the respective frames, prior to starting to plank
- with hindsight, don't think I really needed that balsa filler in the middle of the hull
- will opt for 3 mm plywood frames at every station (I have used various thicknesses, no need for that)
- there was no need to have the keelson jutting out of the frames as much as it did, and also, I could easily have added the sonar domes separately
Experience is a steep learning curve as they say....
E
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A question for the forum members - am still researching one or two things to complete my Leander hull: does anyone happen to know what the likely shape of the Sonar domes on a gun Leander looked like ? Some of the GRP hulls seem to indicate they were fairly narrow and long, whereas others seem to suggest their shape was far more rounded and circular ?[/size]Can't find any photographs on the net either, so will need to go with a sketch or anyone's best advise/ recollection.Thanks for any help that can be shed.E
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If she was fitted with Type 184 Sonar
She would have had a more rounded
Dome as the 184 transducer was made
up of a circle of transducer elements
called staves as in a barrel.
The other fit was Type 199 variable depth
sonar.
I would think 184 in the 70's.
Ned
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Thanks Ned, very useful - information is clealy quite patchy, so very much appreciate the help.
One last question then perhaps: it seems there were two domes jutting out of the keel, the other probably being a Type 162 Sonar - which one would be the smaller of the two and which one nearest to the bow ?
Hope you don't mind me asking, want to get this as right as I can.
E
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Found a link that shows Argo with
177/170 sonar in 1970.
Will give you details when I get
to a computer.
Ned
http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7176
you will have to register but it may be worth it for the info.
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Lovely hull E! Thinking about your question to Bluebird, I expect his crisp knuckles are due to lots of experience in hull making, but he may have PM'd you and told you how he really did it!
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aye, as me fathor would say, he is making a 'canny job' of the hull :-)
How I did the knuckle on HMS Exeter is a 'well known' secret and if I tell I will have to say don't tell anyone else :-)
First of all, the radius in the knuckle, I planked out with 1/16 square Obechi; this started from where the bridge is on the hull and ended up at the bow. I think it was about 20+ pieces per side; the top edge of the knuckle from the radius to the deck was done with 1/16 ply. When I sanded it, I made a sanding block up with a radius which was slightly smaller on one edge of the block - so - that when I wrapped the sandpaper around the block - Used double sided sticky tape - to actually stick the sandpaper to the block. This is how I formed the radius - then, when I fibreglassed the hull I left sanding and finishing the knuckle areas right to the end. Near enough the majority of the hull had been sanded.
Then when I plated it with plasticard, I found it was easier to preform the plates of plasticard around a curtain rail steel tube - from the curtain rail in other words - under the hot water tap. This aided the gluing of the plates into shape.
john
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Thanks for that John. The hint and tips book is filling up!
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Gave the hull a first coat of resin + hardener, worked especially into the joints and where the seams are slightly opened between the various planks.
Will rub this down once fully dried out and then proceed with filler and body primer - heading for a lot more sanding no doubt !
Glass matt have been ordered and are on their way, so no time to waste.
Am pondering whether to remove the sonar dome (that is part of my keel assembly) to facilitate the matting of the hull, and re-attach later & separately. Seem to think this protuberance will stand in the way of a neat glassfibre cover......
E
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Am pondering whether to remove the sonar dome (that is part of my keel assembly) to facilitate the matting of the hull, and re-attach later & separately. Seem to think this protuberance will stand in the way of a neat glassfibre cover......
YES
O0 O0 It will make life a lot easier
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Argonaut sailed through some cottage cheese today - applied the first coat of filler...snowwhite !
Then sanded most of it away again....
E
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It's a horrible task, 'long-boarding' a hull, but time and effort spent here pays huge dividends later on.
Just tell yourself there'll come a point when you're wet-and-dry sanding this hull, and as you find it smoother than the smoothest baby's smooth bum, you can call it a day. :-))
Andy
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Hi there
Yes its an extremely horrible if not boring task - sanding down/filling/sanding down again/filling but always remember this; patience is a virtue and the longer you spend perfecting the finish on this hull - the more rewarding this will be. If you rush it; leaving a few lumps/bumps you will regret it - because, as you are building your model - you will see these 'faults' which you have left through, shall we say, impatience - and you will be thinking to yourself - I wish I had spent more time - because these faults are spoiling the model. You will know where the imperfections are. I have the tee-shirt - as one would say - so take your time, be patient. The reward comes along when someone says to you - 'oh, that's a nice Deans fibre glass hull ' and you will have the pleasure of saying - sorry - that model is plank on frame/built by myself.
Last, but not least, I myself would remove that square block for the sonar - because you can guarantee - you will rap your knuckles on it when you are sanding :-)
Your hull is looking good. :-)) :-))
John
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Looking really nice. Looking forward to seeing this evolve. All so picking up lots of tips along the way. Thank you for taking the time to share :-)) :-)) :-))
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Thanks for your words of encouragement chaps, and especially all the good advise - have been doing some more sanding today and applied a second layer of filling, especially the stern and bow sections needs a little more pasting.
And yes, quickly deleting my stock of sanding paper - but am hearing that that is surely a good thing !
Will be doing another run down tomorrow morning and depending on how she looks might already glasscoat the stern and get used to my resin/hardeners, before doing the hull sides.
Moment of truth I think....
No point in posting pics at this stage, only more dust !
E
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Hoping to build one of these myself in a few years time - in the meantime I'll just be content to watch your build. Thank you for sharing this one Eric. :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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A bit more work done as follows:
- Finished my last sanding run and feel I can't significantly improve things any more.
- Dry-fitted the glass cloth cut to size (went for cloth i/o matting as nut trusting myself to deal with overlapping joints)
- Glasscoated the stern
- built the ship's stand
E
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Am intending to try and simulate the so-called 'starved dog' effect, showing the ship's side plates distorted by welding.
Early days still and will need to finish my glassfibre hull coating first, but this will be an extra layer by way of finish.
Been studying photographs of Leanders and laid out my findings on a sketch. Interestingly, it seems as if there are two sizes in these plates, and I reckon that scaled down I will need plates in 6 x 7 mm and 6 x 1mm, or thereabouts. For some reason beyond me it appears as of the broader plates are commonly found under the mainmast, whereas the rest of the hull seems to display the more square forms.
Am trying to figure out how best to simulate this, a first attempt was made using regular printer paper, held over a frame made up of sewing wire, and the whole structure being soaked in superglue. Not good enough, and will be trying rice paper next.
If anyone has any ideas I would be very glad to hear them. The trick will be to make this noticeable enough when seeing the hull from certain angles, whilst not making it too conspicuous either. Not sure if it will prove to be feasibly, but willing to make an effort.
E
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Again good progress Eric :-))..
With respect to the hull distortion, yes you are correct that the hull framing spacing is longer & higher amid ships than further toward the bow & stern as shown on your images.......
I did a refit of the 4.5" Vickers twin mount on HMAS Parramatta.......a different Class to the Leanders, however a very similar hull....Parramatta showed the same hull distortion although not as clear in the image below....[the 4.5's were an older vintage mount, but mechanically very reliable.....the only down side was that the gun mount sailors had to wear rain coats ....to counter the hydraulic oil leakage & spraying <*< when in action]
Having said this, it will be an absolute nightmare trying to simulate the hull plate distortion in 1:96 scale >>:-(
Derek
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You just have to remember that the filler and primer sanded away uncovers a masterpiece. I want to build a couple of models with Plank on frame hulls and everyone on here who has shared their work gives me more confidence.
Your hull is coming along gorgeous :-))
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Just a thought - the only way I could think of was to lay individual liness of a fine thread of sorts along each scribed line then when a layer of cloth is laid over and affixed with resin the raised lines would / could give the illusion of 'panelling' though several attempts to create the effect would have to be tested, like having a piece of brush hair under the cloth after not noticing it having being released when apply the first coat.
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Another (faster?) option ... the physical distortion of the plates is not much. It's 96 times less at your scale, and a pile of work with regards to manufacturing it. Could you simulate plate distortion with a very subtle use of paint: an 'L' of lighter grey and a "7' of darker grey per plate edge? Mask off triangles and be very gentle with an airbrush?
Andy
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Thanks Andy and Warspite for your respective suggestions - I can see that both ideas have considerable merits and but probably also a few drawbacks:
- painting might be an option but will be extremely cumbersome in terms of masking things off and using multiple different paint shades, and I wonder if it will yield the same 'dimpled' effect looking at it sideways as opposed to full frontal
- whereas applying fine wire will equally be quite an onerous job, and will need wire that does not unravel
I suspect I will need to do some more experimenting with shaping a thin material over a former of sorts, almost like baking waffles ! The indentations cannot be too deep as otherwise this will be overkill, and yet at the same time it should still show the paint reflection when viewing the model from an angle.
Guess I will be trying a finer grade of paper next, before considering either thin metal sheet or even ultra-thin plasticard. Need to get this right before trying on the hull itself, clearly - this is the sort of make-or-break-your-model-thing !
I am still hoping that using so-called rice paper will allow me to drench and subsequently mould a number of say 6 rows by 8 columns sections that I can then attach to the hull.
Not ruling out that the final conclusion may well be to let this idea rest rather than worth pursuing but willing to give it a go just for the challenge of it.
E
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:-) Somewhere in the depths of me mind :-) either in a model boat magazine; or on the web somewhere - there was a guy who built a model - I believe it was of a Royal Naval Supply Vessel an RFA - and he assimilated the distorted plating by:
First, gluing on tailors threads which replicated individual plates - then covering the whole of the hull with car body filler.
When that had hardened, sanded it back down until the threads just became visible and then with a scalpel blade, which has a large radius, scrape out between the threads areas to represent distorted plating. If I remember rightly, I am sure it took him well over 6 months. Thing is, what we all have to remember, at 1:96 scale, you are going to have to be pretty close to the model to see this detailing. You will only catch sight of it in certain light - is it really worth it?
It's not like replicating riveted plating on a ships hull, which stands out quite a bit more.
John
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Could you do this (pure theory) ... Get a domed grinding wheel (largest diameter possible) in a mini-drill and grind/sand out an indent where each plate is?
A few obstacles spring to mind, but it feels doable to me.
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We have clearly hit upon an interesting topic here, {-) and very refreshing to see how many ways and means that are being suggested !
I think trying out the various methods should yield the most appropriate solution, but at the same time I must confess I am beginning to wonder whether it is ultimately worth the hassle ! {:-{ Still, want to explore it further and see where it leads me.
Probably the only way to find out is to prepare a hull section, outline the required dimensions and try out the various methods described here, seal and paint as if it were the real model and then compare the various end results.
Will try and document this as much as possible, and hopefully photographs can show the sagging effect.
Thanks for all the ideas, will be trying them out one by one.
E
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using the filler option and make an indented stamp, while the filler is still moist impress the stamp to create indents, first inscribe the lines and imprint between them, once dry fill in the lines and gently sand to retain a smooth surface, the stamp can be made by rounding a piece of square section wood or balsa
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I was wondering if adding the framing to the prepared hull then cladding the whole in the plastic film that model aircraft makers use would work? Then carefully applying heat to make the film contract. This could be applied in strakes and can maybe be bought in grey?
My thoughts are based on the fact that like aircraft, you have odd shapes to cover and so the film would be designed for this.
I think it is called Solafilm, though I expect there are other makes about these days.
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What a great job you are doing, I am learning so much from your project! :-))
Regarding your earlier question regarding Sonar fit, the Type 162 consisted of three arrays, each a rectangular shape approximately 24inches x 6inches. They were flush with the hull and were roughly level with the aft end of the raised focsle (ish).
One was inset in the bottom of the flat bottom of the keel there, and the other two were just above on either side, about 12inches, facing down at roughly 45 degrees.
I seem to remember that they were not painted, and were fibreglass faced, so a creamy/green colour.
Keep up the good work.
Nige
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a thin layer of filler or many layers of filler/primer (maybe several different colors for sanding depth recognition) https://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-28594-12-Volt-Pen-Sander/dp/B000NDGUXU the sanding heads on something like this could be shaped as needed, draw out the "grid" on the hull and sand away..I have one of these sanders and it seems to work well for some things.. I make my own sandpaper pads, sandpaper + spray adhesive..
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Finally took the plunge last night and did my first ever fibreglassing job - something that I was looking at with quite some trepidation.
Worked in two phases (the stern area had already been done so I was only left with the hull itself) and used a slightly different technique for each:
- did the port side first: applied a layer of resin + hardener over the entire length of the hull, working from the keel down to the 'gunwhales', before laying on the cloth, and then worked more resin into the cloth once draped over the hull and then straightened things out.
- for the starboard side, I immediately laid the cloth onto the bare hull and only then worked the resin into the cloth, thus 'fixing' it in place, before continuing as before and 'pencilling' the folds out.
I used a broad paint brush that I can discard, 1/2' wide, which I felt was a good tool for the job.
I can see no difference in the end result, and not entirely sure which is ultimately the better method really - the first one gave me some stress in that clearly you have to be careful laying out a quite substantial surface of cloth without things folding up or causing wrinkles. Once in place however the second coat of resin is easier to apply without the cloth moving.
The latter method is easier to smooth out the cloth and avoid wrinkles, but at the same time there is more drag when applying the resin and you need to hold the cloth in place in the area you are working on.
Overall I am quite pleased, there are no air bubbles or folds so all in all things are quite smooth already. The only area where I was struggling was the section of the keel in between the prop shafts, where the cloth would not stay in place and follow the concave curve of the hull - I needed to make a slit with a cutter and re-cover a small section of this area.
Remarkably enough I was expecting this problem, but just not in this spot - the bow area with all of its curves and roundings went swimmingly well by contrast, which came as a bit of a surprise...
Will need to rework this keel section as I had to make a small incision with the cutter to ensure the cloth ended up laying against the hull but also created an uncovered section by doing so.
The other lesson learnt is to ensure there is sufficient 'overhang' when laying the cloth over the model, say at least 1' - my cloth was barely covering the hull in one spot, with very little excess to spare, and this caused the cloth to unravel when brushing the resin into place.
The entire process must have taken a good hour or two, preparations included - will be adding a second layer of resin+ hardenener tonight once everything has dried out and remove the excess cloth.
A few snapshots to show the process
E
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Hi Nige,
Thanks a million for the sonar info, this is really helpful. Let me make a sketch of the intel provided and if you don't mind will run this past you to see if I am getting this right.
I would also presume that the Type 162 set would be in front of the Type 177, which would sit approx. under the gun turret ?
Sadly enough pictures of Leanders in drydock are pretty rare and usually the sonar domes tend to be masked by the supporting blocks in the graving dock, so that is no help either.
Cheers, and thanks for your help again
E
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Little to report by way of progress - hardly had time to do work on Argonaut, partially caused by the cold temperatures in my garage. This caused the last resin layer to cure far slower than the two previous ones, and I ended up taking the model indoors (much to the wife's chagrin {-) when I described it as the next big thing in indoor decorating !!) to try and speed up the process.
After 4 days things appeared to have completely dried, so now need to go for the final sanding run and can then spray my first primer coat.
Hope to be able to do some more work this weekend.
E
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Liking this. Looking forward to the next chapter :-)) :-)) :-))
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With regard to the dented plating - many years ago I saw a nice model of an RN frigate at a model show near me and the guy who had done it said that he had used a framework of thread across the hull, and then covered it with a layer of cigarette papers. He then painted it and varnished it. It looked quite effective.
I would imagine it would also take less than six months to do.
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For what its worth your planking and hull are really looking excellent, first class! I'm not certain how to suggest simulating the plating effect other than to counsel you make up a flat plate off the ship and try some experiments as that way you may well find the right technique or decide not to go that route. - Keep up the good work Geoff
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Thanks for all the advises chaps, Argonaut had a few uneventful days of late but managed to put in some work this afternoon.
Gave the hull a final rubdown using 240 grade sanding paper, before spraying the first coat of putty primer.
Discover one area where the glass matting was coming loose - see picture hereunder - so that will call for some remedying action.
Putty primer is pretty unforgiving, there is no escaping any bump or blemish once the hull has a bit of colour ! All in all relatively happy but clearly some more sanding required in places.
Had some left in the can so used it on the baby Leander that I still had in the attic, half the scale at 1/192nd so another project once Argonaut is finished.
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Also started to do some experimenting on the best simulation of the dented plating, and for now the moment the first idea to validate is to check what type of material would be best suited to 'draped' over a grid of sewing thread glued onto the plasticard.
Started by weaving a grid in the very same dimensions as would be applicable on this scale, and opted for the thinnest sewing wire I could find, together with a thick, flat piece of plasticard to simulate the full.
Tried two material in 3 combinations;
- on the very left I tried cigarette paper, impregnated first with Liquid Cement and then drenched with superglue
- in the middle, used wrapping paper impregnated with ordinary white wood glue
- on the right, cigarette paper again and white glue
Once finished, sprayed everything with putty primer.
No sure if the photographs display the results accurately enough but do not feel that any of three methods is yielding the desired result just yet.
Will immediately rule out the use of wrapping paper, as this is prone to tearing when wet and also the structure remains too coarse.
The first method seems to be the best one for the time being, but in some places the foil did not 'fall' into the grid and thus remained too rigid, whereas in other places it quite nicely imitated the starved dog distortion generated by the welding heat.
I will be doing some further experimenting with filling up with putty as an alternative, watch this space.
The one impression that is already clear is that the time required to apply the weaved grid onto the hull will be quite time consuming !
E
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Hm, the one in the middle would look the best if the surface was smoother while as it stands, the right hand one seems most effective. regarding surface quality and style. My concern for the putty technique is that you have to retain the integrity of the straight frame edges as well as get every concave surface smooth. It sounds like a bind to me, but if the end result goes just right then it will be a spectacle :-))
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Progress is slow due to other commitments - been doing some more sanding and getting started on the stabilisers and bilge keels.
E
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hi there
the hull is beginning to look nice now - are you still thinking of assimilating the plating? Or are you going to leave that for when you make another hull?
John
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Hi John,
Not giving up on the idea just yet, but still experimenting with various method - so far the result obtained by stretching cigarette paper over a grid of sewing thread and drenched in superglue appears to be the most promising, but still not entirely happy (not least because of the small size of these foils) and trying out a few other things.
Worked on the bilge keels today and got three out of 4 in place. Thought I'd deviate from usual practice of using a strip of wood and opted for laminated plasticard. Not a good idea, was far too time-consuming and believe it is easier to glue a rectangular strip of wood, shaped to follow the curvature of the hull, in place and then move to give it its triangular cross-section shape. I have used shreds of glass to gradually carve things into the right shape.
Used brass pins as additional supports, drilled into the hull.
As it is the results are ok but have the impression is that it took me twice as long.
A few snapshots.
E
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Shaping thick plastic is a pig. If you do it mechanically you run the risk of melting it, and when you do it by hand it takes bloomin ages. The easiest way is a mixture of coarse abrasive paper stuck on a board/ piece of MDF and a sharp Stanley blade. Your work looks good though:O)
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@Crabbersnipe
Awesome build. Can you tell me how you cut out all your ribs and keel? They look extremely well cut out and accurate
:-))
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Only too right Ballastanksian with regards to your comment about shaping plasticard, if I'd known from the outset I would have stuck with wooden strips: far easier to sand and shape. Thinking that laminating plasticard would facilitate its shape turned out to be a time consuming and difficult job.
Nonetheless, when it came to making the second one I thought I needed to continue for consistency's sake so thought things would be easier by using a v-shaped gig, slotted out of a scrap of waste brass sheet, and gradually pull the plasticard back and forth. This was better, but the model will see me settle for wood again.
Second photograph shows the curvature of the bilge keel prior to fixing in place, the result of trial and error before getting it right.
E
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for your question regarding the frames and keel - not really a secret to be honest, all of the frames were cut by hand using a fret saw, and subsequently sand off the remaining excess on the disc grinder.
The inside section was also cut out by means of the fret saw and then sanded smooth using a Dremel hand drill.
The keel was constructed by laminating two strips of (pine) wood on top of each other, with the upper strip spaced out to allow for a slot between the frames.
Cheers
E
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Did some more work on the hull, first bit of work since the New Year - reverted to the trusted practice of using wood instead of plasticard and fashioned the two sonar domes and two stabiliser fins from a piece of scratch wood. Subsequently superglued it in place and when dry covered the lot in resin + hardener.
Next step is adding filler where necessary.
After that, only need to add the propellers and open up the anchor recesses and the hull shall be ready for turning.
E
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Some more photographs
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They should make her a stable model to sail even fixed. She's coming along great :-))
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Your test with sewing thread - what about reducing the thread thickness by unwinding the thread into its usual 3 parts, being thinner it will wont sit as proud, also you forgot that the threads overlapping also create lumpy areas which distorts the effect.
so what about that film for aircraft wings that when heated shrinks, if the horizontal threads are laid as a continuous run and the verticals are laid up to each horizontal, being cut with a very sharp blade so that it is a flush as the horizontal - you create an even mesh, (what about the plastic mesh used for gardening - just cut out the squares between the horizontal and vertical, it may be too thick in section though). when you affix the plastic sheet, glue in the centre of each square so that the film is stuck only in the centre - not sure what glue would be sufficiently strong enough, say about a quarter of the surface area of the square only, when heated and it shrinks it will naturally curve over the thread without looking raised artificially. unsure if this makes sense. then coat in a resin to seal the film. :P
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Decided it was time to open up the anchor recesses today - made a simple gig to transfer the drawing onto the concave hull shape and using a small needle to pinpoint the 4 corners.
Subsequently drilled everything out and removed the underlying balsa before filing the recess into proper shape.
Will be doing the other side tomorrow, and once the hull is turned over construct the inner recess and hawse pipe.
E
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One more - final result
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Thanks Warspite,
Aviation film is a brilliant idea, and one I will give a try. Am making progress with my experimenting, but still not quite what I want - and it has to be perfect or I'd rather not do this at all, for fear it will mar my model.
Have produced a guitar like master grid, using fine metal wire (0.3 mm) glued in place at the proper intervals. Have used this to try and stretch plasticard over it and put everything in the over, hoping the plastic would sag and sink into the squares - clearly not ! The sheet took every imaginary shape bar representing chequered plating !
Next came very thin paper foil, of the type usually found when unwrapping a new shirt (not sure what it is called, but it is quite malleable) - draping this over the grid and then coating in styrene glue yielded a perfect result, but the one thing I still need to figure out is to 'fix' the thus obtained effect - apart from trying to find sufficient stock of this paper '
I guess aviation film will be the thing, and your suggestion to use resin coated is probably the winning combination ! Thanks.
Getting there....
E
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Sorry but I had to laugh at how the plastic card behaved! I understand the frustration exactly!
Just as a thought have you tried just using a very thin grid of cotton thread and just spraying it multiple times as maybe the surface tension of the paint would cause it to pull towards the thread thus creating a dished effect.
I have seen ordinary plating represented with just shading - grey in a different colour and it worked very well.
Good luck
Cheers
Geoff
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Some unexpected scrap bit of info has come to light but one that has caused me some confusion in relation to the sonar domes - information on their exact shapes is extremely patchy, and I have based mine on word of mouth on the one hand, and looking at the Sirmar/Fleetscale hulls being available on the market on the other.
Picture of my rendering attached and 'best probable guesstimate only'.
Whilst trawling through the internet the other day however, I came across a picture showing the underside of HMS Cleopatra as marketed in the Atlantic resin kit range - the sonar shapes are markedly different though, with the front sonar being perfectly circular and the rear one not tear-dropped in shape but a lot 'fatter'.
Could anyone hazard a guess and advise me whichever interpretation is likely to be closest to reality ?
Thanks very much for anyone's ability to shed light.
E
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Waiting for the propellers to arrive and could do with a little distraction from the hull so started some work on the Limbo mortar, lovely shaped piece of kit it was - with a lot of fidgety details though ! Hoping to complete this weekend.
E
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Regarding the Sonar Domes, can you post a picture of them as shown on your plan-set? Which Ship specifically do they claim to show? Are the plans Jecobin? Can you confirm you are constructing Argonaut 'as built'?
I am loving this build!! Your hull work is quite inspirational/exceptional, and I am learning SOOOO much. Thanks for keeping us regularly updated on your progress :-))
Nige
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The round one depicts a 184 dome
Cleo did not have that fit.
Only the last four built had 184.
Ned
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Been doing some further work on the Limbo mortar and this is the result so far - only need to add the barrels, the breeches and the curved pipe work at the front.
Was very fortunate in having found a rather good drawing of the whole assembly on the net, as well as some very detailed photographs of the Limbo mortar aboard HMS Plymouth, also on the internet.
Am intending to complete the mortar well as soon as I turn over the hull, before moving onto the rest of the superstructure and fittings.
Cheers
E
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Thanks for the comments in relation to the sonar domes and their shape - I have so far based my model on three sources of information:
- the Jecobin plans (incidentally HMS Andromeda in its gun guise - only showing a side view however)
- photographs of the model of HMS Danae (built by David Brown and part of the Devonport Museum collection)
- sketches, drawings and comments from fellow modelbuilders
In as far as my research is correct, I think Argonaut was carrying the following sets:
- Type 177 search
- Type 162 bottom search
- Type 170 Limbo attack
The Type 162 was the decoy carried on the rear deck. I am therefore left to conclude that the first two are the ones protruding from the keel below the break in the forecastle, with the 162 being the smaller of the two ?
I have no idea what or where the 170 looks like or be situated.....
At least we can now rule out the circular shape of the Type 184, thanks for that.
E
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The first dome is the 170 attack
The second is the 177 search
The 162 transducers are flush with the hull
behind the three GRP windows.
Decoy is type 182.
I have just remembered the Sword, which was
a very thin transducer right forward, that was
lowered when calibrating the 170. This was
obviously a set distance ahead of the 170 so
the distance could be calibrated
Ned
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Erm....is there a reason for the 2 threads on this build ?
At first, I thought the 4 original pages had disappeared, until I checked the Warships section. :o
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,56343.0.html
Regards,
Ray.
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Sorry, my mistake, not sure what happened but tried to upload the pictures of the Limbo and was prompted for a new message subject
Hope it is not causing too much confusion
[/size][size=78%]E[/size]
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Nah! - it just threw me at first. Thought I'd lost all that great log of how you built the hull. {:-{
I'm sure one of the moderators will merge the 2 threads later on. :-)
Regards,
Ray.
Topics merged
by ken
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As good as finished my limbo mortar today - just one or two smaller items to be added still but quite pleased with the result so far.
E
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I love the model of the Limbo E. I imagine the angle pieces would have taken a few hours to cut and fit!
Nice detailing.
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The round one depicts a 184 dome
Cleo did not have that fit.
Only the last four built had 184.
Confused as HNS Bristol has a fin shaped retractable dome that crew tell me is 184, the 170 having been removed
Ned
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Just going on the premise that the 184 is
a barrel shaped transducer array.
The individual transducers are arranged
Like barrel staves. The 184 usually replaced
The 177 Search sonar, not the 170 attack.
Ned
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What diameter are the mortar barrels?
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Hi Ballastanksian,
The mortar barrels are 4 mm aluminium tube.
Cheers
E
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Did some further work on individualised items of kit and decided to tackle the twin 4.5' gun turret. Gave it some thought as to whether I'd go for a solid carve using balsa, but then decided against it and made the whole assembly out of plasticard sheet and rod, and brass for the elevating barrel mechanism.
Once the structure was completed added putty to the curved turret edges, to fill up the void between the round tube and flat plasticard.
Some snapshots attached.
E
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Some more pics of the gun turret
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I've always love the turrets used in the sixties and seventies despite being a bit boxy. I think it is the joy of seeing more than one gun on a warship!
Your turret is coming along great and can't wait to see her fettled and armed.
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Great watching your model of Argonaut taking shape and very inspirational. As a matter of interest, where on the internet did you manage to find the drawings of the Limbo mortar? I've come across quite a lot of photographs of them, but drawings seem to be scarce. Keep up the good work! Regards, Glyn
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Temperatures finally allowed a long-overdue return to the garage and managed to do some work on the hull again
Needed to cut our the second anchor recess, sanded the bilge keels and needed to do some more sanding of the hull.
More interestingly however, I did some experimenting with the dented plating and think I have found a way that - to my eyes at least - seems to reflect this quite accurately. Have used the stern as a guinea pig, and basically used a 0.003 thick sheet of brass plating, in which the plates were scribed using an old cutter. This assembly was then glued on top of the hull. I am curious to see what the reflection will be once the primer goes on, but the welding lines are clearly visible yet not too conspicuous. I also suspect that should they still be too noticeable it will be relatively easy to 'flatten' them by pushing them further inward.
Also, have substituted my second sonar dome, based on a drawing found for a type 177 sonar in the lowered position. I wasn't too happy with the previous rendering.
Finally, I have also cut out the variable depth sonar bay.
All in all a good evening's work I say %%
E
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brass sheet looks very good, have you tried lithoplate? might work as well but easier to form around curves, bigger sheets often at a near giveaway price.. check with older print places,,,I have some but shipping would be a killer....
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You are ticking the boxes with that idea. and the material, brass or aluminium has the benefit of not being absorbant and so prone to going muchy. The surface is good and just needs a good clean and prime for a good finish.
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Came across a fabulous Leander film on Youtube, so for all the fans among us have a look at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jH6GsaMCMk
Love that shot of that sharp crab-like turn to starboard !
E
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Thanks for the suggestion to use lithoplate - good idea, I have some old stock lying around but not sure about the thickness, fear it might be a little too much.
Also, I am mulling to replicate the plating above the waterline only, partly to avoid the hassle of the curved areas but also because information on the plating pattern below would be too patchy and can only be guesswork, which I don't like too much.
Intention is to insert the shafts and props now, give everything a coat of primer and see how the chequered plating looks.
Cheers
E
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Having walked under Juno in
a DED (Docking and essential Defects)
period, I would say the weathered hull
showing the frames didn't show much
below the waterline.
The Transom never got the hammer from the weather that the sides did.
Ned
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:-)) :-)) :} , I like that Ned, brilliant and totally justifying me cutting a few corners here !
Btw, you happy with my new sonar dome or did I get that totally wrong still ? I never got to see Juno's bottom {-) ....
E
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Did some more work over the WE, drilling out the rudders and propshafts, together with the A-bracket slots.
Think I have now also fully cracked the best way to replicate the starved dog plating on the ship's side, following my little experiment with the transom already covered with a scribed brass sheet.
Was quite happy with the result (albeit a little too pronounced) but quickly hit another hurdle when looking for more brass sheet to cover the ship's sides.
One: brass is bleeding expensive and two: it seems to be only available as coiled thin foil and to be ordered on line from Chinese manufacturers.
Being a little cautious following a previous on-line purchase but also baulking at the cost I needed to find a different solution.
Enter litho printing plate, of which I still had some stock lying and as kindly suggested by someone on this forum (see earlier posts).
Unfortunately this was marginally thicker than the brass sheet used for the stern plating, and the scribed lines were not visible on the reverse side.
In the end the solution was quite simple: the thickness notwithstanding, in the end the best result was ultimately obtained as follows:
- mark out the various plates and locations of the rectangular shapes, using a pencil
- scribing and indenting along the pencilled lines, using a semi-blunt scalpel (each groove being cut 4 times)
- finally, using a pizza slicer (it hasn't been spotted going awry from the kitchen utensils so need to complete the job before the dockyard policewoman gets a fit !) to 'push' the groove sufficiently deep so as to be visible on the reverse side
- also, I found it useful to use a pane of glass to keep the litho plate totally flat when making the initial indentations, but used a wooden board when rolling the pizza slicer.
Managed to put two parts in place and glued them to the starboard hull, using two-component epoxy glue. It is now possible to read some excerpts from a long-forgotten book print on my hull before the primer goes on.....
In the end I am quite satisfied how things look, the effect is pretty subdues yet visible against direct light. I only hope that when the paint gets sprayed on I do not lose the effect !
Finally, I will only be covering the hull above the water line in this fashion, partly to do away with the curves of the hull but also because this is arguable a less noticeable feature underwater.
Also (being quite noticeable when studying Leander photographs), given that there is a visible line half-way the hull denoting the slope of the deck below the surface deck, this also needed imitating; the middle horizontal groove was indented deeper than all the others, so as to give a faint raise denoting where this half-deck runs.
See photographs for results.
E
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Yup, that will work a treat E! I can't wait to see it painted up.
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Looking good, E. Seems like you've finally solved the 'starved dog plating effect' on model ships. Good old litho plate to the rescue! What kind of adhesive are you using to attach it to the hull? Looking forward to seeing the paint job now. Regards, Glyn :-))
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Time for a bit of an update, covered both sides of the hull with the dented plates, but made one little mistake which caused me having to remove the very last stretch.
I am using two-component epoxy glue, but in my haste I forgot to spread out the mixture, which caused a major accumulation in the middle of the last plate, and left me with what can best be described as a speed bump !
Was dreading the prospect of having to remove the entire section, but managed to do so without damaging the glass cloth or the wooden hull underneath. Pfew, tense little moment it certainly was.
Am also attaching a photograph which I hope will give an impression of the light reflection on the covered hull, hope it is visible.
E
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When it has paint on it, that will look great :-)) What make is the glue?
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:-)) I think you have achieved it. Very much looking forward to seeing it painted up.
Andy
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My next issue was a problem when adding the first layer of primer on top of the litho plate, which caused the remaining ink to interact with the primer - not ideal.....I was not expecting this, for I had attempted to clean and remove the remains of the printed text using white spirit and thinners, not to mention light sanding. Thought the primer was therefore going to have no problem whatsover but had a few nasty drips which needed further sanding....
With the sides covered and primered, and some more sanding, I judged the time was ripe for the long-awaited upturning of the hull, and removal (painstaking job that was !) of the support struts. She looks like some container vessel, and was facing an hour-long job removing the nut and bolt structure which - with hindsight - was a little too far-fetched !
A a final step I also cut out the balsa behind the anchor recesses, which will enable me to 'build' the anchor recess from within the hull.
Am looking forward to adding the deck, which will be a major step forward.
But before that indulgence, next job will be the prop shafts, rudders and anchor recesses as a matter of priority. Next the rounded deck edge and limbo well + VDS transom cut-out....
Plodding along in other words, but enjoying it to the brim ! :-))
E
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Last set of photographs for today
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Thanks for that question on the glue - see a photograph, I have been using various makes (believe this one is Bison-kit but same exists in different brands), it always comes in two adjacent tubes which ensure an equal dosage when pushing the components out. Just give a stir and ready to apply.
I must confess that as things progressed I started to wonder whether slow-curing superglue might not have been an equally good alternative, especially near the bow where the concave V-shape is quite pronounced and time was of the essence - the two component glue takes at least 15' to dry and holding things in place for that period is quite time consuming (could not apply clamps in places).
I will also be using this for the prop shafts, have found this to be the most effective glue for all metal/ wood combinations. Once fully dried, it gives a rock-hard bond, easy to work and sand.
Cheers
E
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I have never found superglue to be reliable enough time wise to do that sort of work with and would prefer the slowness of epoxy despite the issues you had with lack of clamping points. I have more often than not found any superglue really good at sticking to my finger, to the tool used to apply a part dipped in glue or anything but the blooming part to part!
Seeing Danielle's (Missy D) temparary cradle gave me the idea to create a one sided clamp with a number of screws that have round rubber ends that can be attached to the build board near to the area you are tryig to stick large panels or the like to, or even just a single screw to hold a small bit in place. It could bust be screwed into place on the board temporarily and made from bits of wood, nuts and studdung, Oh and the rubber ends.
I will try it when I start my cruiser.
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Progress is slow but managed to do some more work on the inside of the hull, started to build up the anchor recesses (difficult job that, too many warped angles in there !) and also removed some of the deck beams to allow work on the rudder posts and propeller shafts.
Unfortunately I had two or three frames blocking the alignment of the prop shafts, which are almost horizontal, so enter the trusted old Dremel to help with sanding away and making room. Bit of a tight squeeze but got the job done.
Also glued two blocks of wood to keep the rudders in place, added the beams to support the deck of the Limbo well, and glued a strip of square wood to the inside of the gunwhales to help with the rounded deck edge once the deck has been glued in place.
Also made two blocks of wood to sit within the V-shaped shaft supports where they penetrate the hull and help keeping them in place and perfectly aligned (made a gig to keep things at the correct distance, at either end of the shafts).
I am hoping to be able to fix the propeller shafts + supports in place tonight, am still mulling how best to do this: previously went down the Epoxy route, but am contemplating exploring a different technique using remnants of the fibre cloth and resin previously used for the hull.
Next will be two blocks of wood alongside the keelson where the display pedestal will be screwed in place, still need to look into the best possible way to do this.
Lastly, have also cut out the 4 deck panels, am using 1 mm airplane birch for this which I will cover with Evergreen plasticard. Will only glue this in place once I have completed all the inner works in the ship's hull, and then round off the deck edges.
Cheers
E
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Had some spare time this weekend and progress to show for it %% , laid the forecastle deck, rounded the deck edges and drilled out the hawsepipe (bit of a dog that was, especially given the rounded bull's eye at the bow).
Subsequently moved to fix the sloped deck containing the breakwaters in place and also rounded the deck edges.
Below the waterline there was some more sanding and also got round to gluing the rudder posts in place, and did the same with the propeller shafts and A-brackets (using a jig for perfect alignment). The remains of the epoxy were carefully removed and everything tidied and sanded. Everything was then given another coat of primer, and there are still some spots that were highlighted as needing more TLC still.
Then moved to prepare the main deck and cut out the recess allowing access to the hull where the superstructure will be removed.
Did the same thing with the VDS well and Limbo mortar pit, all ready to be glued in place as soon as I will have completed my propulsion and steering outfit.
The inner side of the hull was covered in another resin coat, thus giving extra strength and ensuring water tightness.
Also added additional deck stiffeners in place, between the bulkhead frames, to support the decks. In other places the deck beams were removed to give access to the machinery spaces.
Lastly, did some work on the chequered deck plating on the forecastle, using Evergreen strips glued in place and will be completing later this week. Width and length are fully conform, but the strips are a wee bit too thick, so the whole pattern will need a proper sanding to flatten things when all is in place.
Enjoy the pictures, could not resist dry-fitting the gun and limbo mortar for a bit of fun and a proper warship she is now becoming !
E
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Some more pictures
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could not resist dry-fitting the gun and limbo mortar for a bit of fun and a proper warship she is now becoming !
She certainly is coming together nicely - that 4.5" gun turret looks to be turning into a very good piece of modelling. :-))
Regards,
Ray.
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It is fun and enthusing to put the turrets/weapons on the model as you can imagine it finished.
Darn good progress :-))
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Thanks very much, at first the gun turret looked quite enormous on that slender hull and it will be interesting to see the hull 'shrink' proportionally as the other fittings and superstructure start being added....It certainly spurs one on {-) [/size]....
The other remarkable feature of the hull is its weight, feather-light compared to a completely-GRP hull and not quite expecting that - am still deciding whether to fully equip the model with running gear or leave it as 'fitted for but not yet with'....need to make that decision before fixing the larger deck panels in place...
E
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Looking good - you're making great progress! Just a couple of questions: Do you anticipate any problems with the rudder operation in the confined space created by the cut-out at the stern? Clearance looks a bit tight from the photographs. Also - and I'm probably preaching to the converted here, so apologies in advance - did you 'rough up' the side of the litho plate that was being glued to the hull? The reason I'm asking is that, being quite smooth, sometimes the adhesive doesn't key to it properly. The 'ripple' effect you've achieved really looks convincing, I must say. Regards, Glyn
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your comments about the lightness of the hull are quite apt, they are very light compared to a fibreglass one - some people find it difficult to believe, but not only that a plank on frame built hull is pretty strong as well.
If it were me, I would go for motorisation as fit out now; because later on in the day you will be sitting and say to yourself - I wish I had put motors in that model - put it in the lake to see how she sails.
John
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quick question, will you be "plating" around the stem or just doing the flat surfaces?
Bob
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I would definitly fit it out for sailing. It will add to your enjoyment of the hobby being able to pop it on the lake occasionally and see her in her natural element.
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Eric.....
The block on axis on the top of the 4.5" mount is an aerial connection point. The actual Gun Captains glass viewing block is on the STDB rear of the mount......the sides of this viewing box in real life were armour plated green tinted about 12" x 3" glass panes and the front pain about 14" x 8" and about <*< 2" thick
The Gun Captain actually sat in an uncomfortable >>:-(chair, so only with his head protruding high enough to gain an eye line view of the proceeding's O0
Will you be adding this to your mount?
I have attached an image of an RN Leander and also an image of HMAS Vampire 4.5's showing this
Derek
PS......there is also a Cow Bell steel open bottomed rectangular box mounted on the lower rear of the mount shell......this bell rings prior and when the mount is about to train or elevate......I have an image somewhere.....will try & find it for you
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H.M.A.S Vampire turret.
I have quite a few more photos of her but I do not know if they apply to a Leander.
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Oops!
In colour as well.
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Eric.....here is the link to the Cows Bell as fitted to Vickers twin 4.5" mounts...... Derek
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,47297.msg518344.html#msg518344
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Thanks everyone, for the respective contributions - feel like a kid in a candy store with all the photographs, hints & tips and advise provided.
Let me try and attempt to respond the various queries one by one:
- the rudder posts are indeed in a very VERY confined area and I must confess that I began to have some second thoughts about the wisdom of having that VDS well cutout at the stern, clearly wasn't thinking of how to connect the two rudders and attaching a 'yardarm' to take to the servos at a subsequent phase....
It will certainly be a tight fit and I am hopeful that I can find T-shaped servo brackets that will have sufficient room to rotate in these confines, I have also cut out a slot in the keelson below the VDS deck through which I can pass a pushbar between both rudders.
Photographs to follow once I have squared it, will need to be addressed quickly now for I cannot get my deck glued in place before finishing this section.
- as to the litho plates and preaching to the (un)initiated {:-{ {:-{ , I fear I fall into the category of the heretics so I'd better face up to it and come clean; I cleanly forgot about roughing up the back of the litho plate !! I can only hope everything will hold as is - did have one or two corners/ sides where there is a tiny little gap and where the glue does not seem to have held, but nothing I cannot fix with putty and superglue. A very good point and cursing myself for having rushed it ! <*< The overall look is quote good I think, the other doubt I am beginning to have is the visible difference between the parts below the waterline and everything above - hope the effect of the hull anti-fouling red, blanc boot topping and light weatherworks grey will blend everything harmoneously together.
- as to the plating around the stem, another good point - have given that some considerable thought, and same goes for the area around the anchor recesses, but on balance I decided against trying to have the plating done to this area. Two reasons really; looking at photographs, this area seems to be less prone to the dented plating effet and much smoother overall, and seems to have been welded using larger plates.
The other things is that, the stem being quite sharp, my fear is that by adding litho the looks of that chisel-sharp bow might be diminished. That said, once I will have given the hull a first spray, I am intending to add very fine welding lines (have begun begging my daughter for some strands of her long hair, under the pretence they will be immortalised by going into model !!) along some of these panels, again as can be seen in some photographs (see photographs attached, albeit of the stern area), to replicate the welding seams.
- as to the gun, many thanks indeed for the additional photographs and information regarding the cow's bell and gunner's armoured lookout position. The intention is very much to have these features added still, I had temporarily stalled my work on the gun whilst waiting for the barrels to arrive (so far the only concession to going 'commercial' as I do not have a lathe nor the required skills to 'turn' things) and with the temperatures back to acceptable levels in my workshed, to progress the hull.
A great deal of thanks as well for the dimensions of those armoured 'slits' in that conning position, that will come in handy. I also need to add the antenna still (although this appears to be lacking on some Leanders, bizarrely enough, but Argonaut certainly had the aerial) and add a few clips and hinges to the doors at the rear of the turret.
Thanks again guys, appreciate the interest and support.
E
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Thanks for the reply about plating the stem. I asked as you got me thinking could I do it on Bristol at 1/72, well yes of course, but having seen it in the flesh the stem is prominent on her. I also arrived at the same question you posed about the waterline, Bristol being bigger, broader means that the plat could be taken all the way around, guess that is what makes it so much fun (I think) :}
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Hi Rob,
Good luck with that plating exercise, would be good to hear your experiences and do let us have some snapshots of your model of Bristol. I have a set of fairly good photographs when she was alongside as the Dartmouth training ship, must have been her final commission I suppose.
Cheers
E
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Little progress over the WE, but took some time to lay some extra strips on my forecastle deck, very time consuming and mind-numbing exercise ! Quite pleased overall though, only need to rub down the strips and will have the desired result.
E
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Wow - mind-numbing and time-consuming it might be, but the end result is most impressive. I've read somewhere that on the full-size vessels the steel strips were individually welded to the deck. If that's the case then you're doing pretty much the same in miniature! What kind of adhesive are you using, as a matter of interest? Regards, Glyn
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Looking great so far, :-))
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The shiny areas around the strips and lack of brush marks suggest the use of Plastic weld (Dichloromethane.) I salute your efforts and time spent laying the strips E.
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Hi gents,
At long last some more progress, been travelling for work a little too much to my liking the last few weeks...so the shipyard has been lying idle for quite some time.
Anyway, with temperatures returning to acceptable levels managed to put in some more work in the garage this weekend, and quite pleased to have been able to iron out the problem with the rudder posts and steering compartment. Barely had enough room to sort this out and also allow for the VDS well cutout at the same time, literally had a fraction of a inch to spare, and barely that. Needed to give this quite some thought and was a fiddly job given the limited space available.
The rudder tubes were oiled using ball-bearing grease used for bicycles, hope this will be ok.
Had to remove parts of the some of the bulkheads to allow the rudder T-rig sufficient turning arcs, so mental note for next model: better think this true in advance rather than have to do these last-minute adjustments ! <*<
Have opted for a self-made pull-push rod, made up of two different diameters of brass wire, to connect the servo with the rudders. Both rudders were joined together with a brass rod, and I made a little jig to ensure both rudders were perfectly aligned when fixing this connecting rod in place. I can only pray this arrangement will prove to be entirely durable for there will not be any way of accessing this compartment once the deck is glued in place - fingers cross and may she sail into eternity in this fashion ! :police:
Next step was to start building the well and limbo compartments, have used 1 mm ply for this, for enhanced structural strength. This will next be covered with plasticard, for the bulkheads in the Limbo well at least, as this will allow me to add the detail to the plasticard before fitting in place.
Also drilled out the anchor tubes and marked the positions of the roller fairleads, capstans, anchor chain intakes, etc..
Last thing I did was to glue the chequered deckplates onto the forecastle deck, so not a bad day's work.
Hope you will enjoy the photographs.
E
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Second batch of photographs
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Third and last set
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Complex but attractive work you are doing there. I like your weights, the idea of having blunt weight or targetted weight in one unit is clever.
Did you make them or adapt some useful things?
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Thanks for the question regarding the weights, I am not sure what they are properly called, but there is a bit of a history here - my dad used to be a shipbuilder and this is one of those bits n bobs that we bequeathed to me, my suspicion is that they were used on drawing boards before the arrival of digital drawing, most likely to keep a curved ruler in place when drawing ship's lines....
Me for my part, I am quite pleased to be continuing the family shipbuilding traditions, albeit on a smaller scale !
They do come in handy I must say, and are great when having to keep things fixed in place.
Cheers
E
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They are steeped in nautical history. That is a good thing:O)
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:-)) {-) ....you can say that again....
Did not have too much time tonight but did not want to sit idle either so thought it a good idea to start work on the second breakwater - I am intending to use tinplate as easier to bend into shape, and rather than use the former trial-and-error method I thought I'd be better of making a 'negative'. Comes out a good piece of scrap balsa and a lot of dust, but have my template now after a good hour's work.
Will be wrapping the metal sheet around it, mark out the sides and cut out the correct shape.
A few snapshots
E
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Started to do some work on the superstructure, progress relatively slow but at least still progressing....hope to do more this WE.
Am using 1 mm plasticard sheet, and building it upside down making sure it fits the deck coaming I will put in place around the deck cut-out giving access to the battery space.
A few snapshots
E
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Did some more work on the superstructure and also added the anti-fouling red below the waterline.
E
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Tidy bit of internal strengthening on the superstructure Edmund. That styrene can tend to warp.
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Did some preparations on the bridge and window panes - as I feel that this is probably the very area where one's eyes will be drawn when looking at a model, and given the various angled surfaces making up Leander bridges, it is critical to get this part absolutely right.
Bizarrely enough I felt that there was something wrong with the proportions between the windows, front of the forward superstructure and the typical 'overhang' containing the windscreen wipers, as drawn in the ship's plans. In my view, most Leander model display an incorrect proportion between the height of the windows in comparison to the overhang directly above, giving a look of 'raised eyebrows', whereas looking at photographs seem to give a more 'frowned' look....
Consequently, in an effort to try and improve, I have redrawn the entire section, basing myself on ship-board photographs and working with dividers and maintaining relative proportions: I arrived at a +/- 10% difference between my sketches and the ship's drawings !
Still, thinking everything through this logic is also partially skewed: any shipboard photograph taken from the forecastle, will be too 'near' the bridge, causing some distortion and making everything look broader than necessary or actual reality.
Not sure if the photographs show this clearly enough, but having completed two separate drawing based on two different sets of photographs, and in turn comparing these against the ship's drawing, I still cannot help the feeling things are still not right, notwithstanding all the maths applied !
This being all about the correct looks, I may compromise and settle for an intermediate solution, and see what results this given on the model.
To be continued !
E
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If it is +/- 10 % then that has to be damn near to the desired dimentions taking build materials and finished into account as well.
If you have got the shape and angles modified from studying reference then I reckon you are there. We are all our worst critics and sometimes 'Perfect is the enemy of good enough', or in this case very near. A quote by Krunschev I beleive.
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Did some more work on the superstructure and used a scrap piece of balsa to assist with the curved front just below the bridge. Careful sanding to the required shape and than started to laminate using 1/2 mm styrene sheet, kept in place with superglue.
Still wasn't quite happy with the plans nor my own reworked drawings for the bridge windows, overhang and dimensions, so basically ended up remeasuring everything on my previous Leander and will take thing from there !
Also managed to make the superstructure making up the helicopter hangar with the aft Seacat director platform, so slowly making headway.....
To Ballastansian's point, quite agree you can't have enough cornerposts and stiffers inside styrene structures, but the end result is a very strong but also very light structure.
Enjoy the pics,
E
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Last two photographs - bridge front of my model of HMS Danae
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Nice work there Eric - your superstructure looks very well braced, should withstand a bit of rough handling.
Regards,
Ray.
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Thanks chaps, always encouraging to hear words of support and advise.
I am trying to consider my next step now, temporarily suspend work on the superstructure and try and get the remainder of the deck in place. That will allow a major quantum leap forward, as I can then also round off the deck edges along the remainder of the hull, following which I can paint the hull grey and add the boot topping. With that out of the way, the hull will formally be completed and can then focus entirely on the superstructure and all the detailing.
Taking that intention to the next phase, I really need to get round to detailing the Limbo and VDS wells, and also make provisions for the engine support plates, before fixing the decks in place.
So, in chronological order I see then next steps:
- pain insides of Limbo + VDS
- add as many details as possible whilst still bearing in mind I will risk damaging same when furthering the rest of the deck
- enjoy maximum access into the hull for as long as necessary and possible fitting the motors and servoes beforehand
- glue deck in place
- round off deck edges
- add styrene deck + bollards + fairleads
- add ship's name to stern sides
- add pennant number and draught marks
- sign off hull from builders
- keep call and carry on with the rest of the model (another year ?)
As a first practical step I have begun scouting for a can of the correct deck colour, and whilst I have found all the references in terms of correct colour & BS codes etc..., I appear to have hit a bump in the road in terms of finding a supplier capable of supplying the required colours ! I always used to buy my tins from White Ensign models but they no longer appear to be selling any paints (correct ?), does anyone know whether this is indeed the case and whether there are any other suppliers out there capable of delivering the usual small quantities needed for modelling purposes ?
Thanks for any help
E
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Found these and they are good, cans even have adjustable spray nozzle
http://www.cjaerosols.com/product/british-standard-colour-aerosol-spray-paint/bs-381c-light-weatherwork-grey-676-400ml-custom-filled-aerosol-spray-paint-can/
Bob
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White Ensign (The paints at least) were taken on by another company. I am now going to be wholly useless and admit not remembering who took them on >>:-(
Here we go. A quick look on t'internet found this link to Sovereign hobbies: https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/collections/white-ensign-models
I hope this helps.
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Thanks for that painting advice chaps, very very useful and getting me out of a pickle. Results will be shown as soon as the paint has dried !
Brilliant, upwards and onwards !
E
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Some more work today, visible progress is slow but did put in a lot of minor tasks which are all contributing:
- added putty to the various angles and joints along the superstructure
- cut out the first of the bridge windows and glued them into place, carefully getting the angles right
- laminated the bridge 'cap', using 3 parts of 1 mm ply glued together - this is still to be rounded off
- put the angled front panels to the superstructure front
- bent the first of the bridge wings in place using litho plate - first used a balsa former to get the shape correct, took me few attempts
- finally, constructed the funnel support structure, also by means of stretching a strip of litho plate over a balsa former
Finally, needed to deal with a rather hairy-looking spider in the workshop.... <*<
E
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Some further work on the bridge structure, and could not resist a mock-up using the parts already assembled ! %%
E
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Gents,
I was wondering if anyone on the forum might be able to help with some research and an area I am struggling to find good photographs of is the signalling deck, around the main mast and behind the bulwark containing the Aldis lights etc....
- it is unclear whether there is a passageway at the rear end, cutting through the bulwark in between the 2 main search:signalling light, and leading onto the funnel-carrying structure - does anybody know ?
- also, I could do with some photographs showing fittings & equipment on the inside of the bulwark, as well as the configuration of the area around the Aldis light - two appear to be on some form of raised platform, and there are also director sights just in front thereof: anyone with snapshots ?
Thanks a million for any help that could be supplied, most appreciated.
Meanwhile, I am steadily progressing the forward superstructure and will be posting photographs at the end of the weekend.
Cheers
E
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Try
https://www.facebook.com/groups/leander.class/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/leander.class/)
or
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Leander_class_frigates?uselang=en-gb (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Leander_class_frigates?uselang=en-gb)
or
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scratch-Built-Leander-Class-Frigate-Model-HMS-Cleopatra-By-Derek-Head-/301242004903 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Scratch-Built-Leander-Class-Frigate-Model-HMS-Cleopatra-By-Derek-Head-/301242004903)
or
https://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/leander%20class%20frigates./
C-3PO
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Finished the two masts and did some work on the emergency steering platform - have been experimenting with a composite construction using lithoplate and styrene, especially for curved angles. Still debating the pros and cons of each material, find styrene slightly easier to work with when cutting out spaces and to glue together with a simple brush stroke, but lithoplate is quite light and have the impression it creates a 'sharper' look. The main drawback I think is the need for superglue, always a little messier...so the verdict is still out, but intend to continue to use both as the building progresses.
Overall quite pleased with progress over the weekend, maanged to put in more work than I expected !
E
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Some more {-)
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I watched a video on Youtube of a Leander in service (Recruitment film I recall) and it reminded me of your model, so you are getting the right results.
I like the idea of Litho plate but am always worried about it pining off if accidently hit/ knocked with the resulting need to repair neatly. Perhaps this is the better option to trying to unbend thin brass or repair snapped plastic. All have their pros and cons. You can get Aluminium solders but beleive they are expensive due to Aluminium being tricksy to join.
Lovely work :-))
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Thanks Ballastanksian,
Interesting to read you comment about the Youtube film featuring Leanders - are you referring to the one called 'frigate - 1973' or another one still ? I'd be very interested to know.
Also, good point about the aluminium bonding material, I need to do some more experimenting with this material still.
Cheers
E
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It was 'Frigate' 1973 that I watched followed by one on the Cod wars that had a couple of Leanders in. It was a compilation of news reports from an Icelandic Gunboat.
I like the idea of Aluminium because of it's light weight. I have considered using small physical connectors in the form of aluminium wire rivets as well as glue. On the matter of soldering metals. I was taught by a friend to use small rods to actually hold pieces together before soldering to keep them in place providing they do not effect the look of the finished model/piece.
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Did some further work on my bridge structure, carved my balsa former for the port side bridge wing and also added the first of the bulwarks around the signal platform.
Did a lot of sanding around the bridge front, added a first layer of primer to highlight any remaining cracks and finally started work on the liferaft 'racks'.
Some photographs to show progress....
E
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I hate doing curvy bits on models and think your wings have come out good.
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Thanks, must confess litho plate is growing on me and excellent for these curved parts - whilst I did not particularly looked forward to this part of the build, in reality things were far more straightforward than I ever could have imagined - the balsa template allowed an accurate litho cut out, including the recess for the navigation lights in their correct position, which then only needed gluing in place and job done. Do not think it took me more than an hour all told.
The other lesson learned was to remove the remains of the ink left on the litho plate before fixing into place, have had some 'bleed' when spraying the primer on and that reacting with the printing inks.
Most time seems to be spent filling and then endlessly sanding the joint where the litho meets the styrene....so far quite happy. Am now looking to find a thin strip of veneer which I can use to imitate that mahogany on top of the bridge wing bulwarks - remember having used thin foils typically contained in cigar boxes in the olden days, but harder to come by and a little brittle...
E
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This won't come as a surprise but it is simply mind-boggling what degree of differences there are between individual Leanders, even in areas where one doesn't expect it - one would imagine that early on in their careers these ships would far more similar, before the modifications began, but it seems as if every yard did have some leeway with the MoD's specifications !
One or two examples to illustrate : there seem to be two types of RAS points on the bridge front, one being a quite simple 'triangular' construction made up of two parts, whereas other ships have a more 'Z' like contraption made up of 4 parts ! I guess the former was the original design, subsequently modified/ perfectioned (making abstraction of the Seawolf variants, which replaced port and starboard hoists with only one centrally located RAS hoist).
An other area is the life raft container position lining the superstructure sides, again there appear to be various configurations.
In the absence of any detailed snapshots for each of these areas, I fear I will inevitably have to make a calculated guesstimate on how Argonaut looked and base myself on what I happen to find for any given area on other Leanders....fun and games, clearly :-). Trawling the net can be hugely satisfying when you find that one, sufficiently detailed photograph depicting a section you have been scratching your head over....no doubt the day after having glued one's best guess in place on one's model and that turning to have been completely wrong...!!!
Perhaps I ought to compile all the accumulated knowledge into a book some day...
E
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Lovely work, every inch a Leander! Fantastic detail work, keeping me interested every step of the way. :-))
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This fact is more standard than the similarities between ships of a class E. I have read that yards were allowed to build roughly within the specifications set down by the Admiralty. Destroyers are a case in point where in the early days you could have destroyers with from two to four funnels. The Tribals of pre ww1 fame had anything from three to six funnels!
Add to this the wartime changes during refit or repair and you get a confusing mix of fits and styles.
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You could add to that the time frame as well, building HMS Bristol it is interesting to see how the ship has evolved over the years.
Bob
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Wanted to put in some extra work tonight and had a good two hours to fill - decided to have a go at the RAS derricks and whilst initially contemplated making these using styrene rod, I decided against it for fear of these bending over time and settled for brass rod instead.
My soldering skills not being quite impressive I thought I'd best use some kind of gig to hold things in place: made a rough sketch to get the angles and lengths correct, used some left-over plywood to make crude but efficient template, put everything into the slots, clamped everything using another piece of wood and then added the solder.
It seems as if one spends far more time cleaning the joints and removing the excess solder (first picture before cleaning, the lower one after filing) , but the result was quite strong and overall very pleased with how the two RAS points came out.
Finally put them in place against the front face of the bridge and the only thing left to do is to fix the eyelet at the extreme end, once the construction is further advanced.
The photographs in the background are of HMS Danae, one of the few Leanders with the simplified RAS derricks it seems.
Cheers
E
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I am learning that less flux and less solder will create a smaller and tidier join. Practice currently shows that too much of both is still creating lots of work %)
Your RAS derricks look good.
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Thanks Ballastansian, good advice and will definitely be trying that out - I guess I may need to look for a different soldering iron with a sharper tip, mine is V-shaped and some 2 mm wide, which is a little too crude for my purposes. I believe there are smaller versions specifically aimed at the electronics industry (working on microchip circuit boards etc...) which is probably what I need....
Next job will be the yardarms and would also like to have a stab at the handrails alongside the superstructure...I might start to like soldering after all...
E
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I get the gist that having two or three of different wattages is a common practice for the very point you make E. The lower watt ones can be very reasonably priced.
Ideally (and after a lottery win) one would have a soldering station with a mini moulding loft bench arrangement to jig up brass and metal parts held together for soldering in your workshop.
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A lottery win is everything we need ! Just imagine for a moment what it would buy, beginning with a very large, comfy, heated and fully equipped, spacious workshop ! ....
Will do a web prowl to see what I can find in terms of soldering irons, and if all else fails guess I will be paying far too much at my local hobby store, but am sure they will have something suitable !
Cheers
E
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Feeling very pleased, not to say relaxed and very zen ! Managed to put in no less than 10 hours work this weekend, and believe have a few things to show for it...at long last there is a marked difference compared to the previous general outlook - nothing to spur one on s seeing marked progress and the result of one's work !
So, in chronological order: finally completed the anti-fouling bottom hull section (need to re-do one particular stretch where there was still a tiny little blemish), so was subsequently also able to add the black boot topping - this immediately makes a very big difference I find, she slowly is becoming a proper warship, even if the grey is still to be sprayed .....
Something rarely seen on most models but I thought I'd have a go at it nonetheless: added the 4 cathodes and was particularly fortunate at having been given the exact dimensions by someone-in-the-know (thanks again Nigel). Two were sitting above the propeller shaft exists, on either beam, whereas the front ones are slightly more 'guesstimated', but believed to be near the front end of the bilge keels. So don't take my advice for these ones, but the fact is that the Leanders had 4 cathodes strips for sure. (And I believe is the case for most frigates and destroyers in HM's Navy). Still need to give them a coat of paint.
Something else which is very often lacking on most warship models are the diving lines - again photographs are patchy and there appear to be some variations amongst the various Leanders, but have added one line already using self-adhesive white tape. The only area where I was struggling with this were the curved ends of the bilge keels, where the tape could not be bent nor did it hold in place.
I will be adding the remained later, and again this is an area where some artistic freedom will used, especially in the rear section amongst the propellers and rudders, where the lines are somewhat zigzagging it appears.
It also appears that whilst most of the times these diving lines are white, ocassionally they are also black (as seen in a photograph of a dry-docked type 23)
Also sprayed the sonar domes, these appeared to be off-white in the 1970's before it became more commonplace to have them in the same anti-fouling red. Thought it also added a splash of contrast at the same time.
Then moved on to do some work on the forecastle: added the front bollards, anchor chain plates, hawsepipes, rear breakwater, spurn water, capstan plates, capstan operating wheel, emergency escape hatch....
All good progress, only need to add two rolling fairleads, anchor chain stopping points, fire hose reel connections, breakwater supports and all the various vents behind the breakwater and that will be the forecastle completed.
Since I needed to give the deck in the VDS and Limbo wells a splash of green before being able to fix my rear deck in place, I emptied the paint remaining in the airbrush jar and used it on the forecastle deck - an immediate changeover and wonderful look I thought...
Lastly, added some minor details to the bridge front and also fitted the skylight housings all round the superstructure.
All in all a very good weekend I say !
Enjoy the pics
E
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Last set of photographs
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Squires carry a range of soldering irons by Weller (15watts and up) and Antex (12 watts and up) Ther Wellers start at £21 and the Antex ones start at £17. They carry the bits and accessoires for both ranges.
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Interesting and thanks a million - will have a look, the cost is not too onerous...
E
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Especially if you already have a larger one already.
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Wanted to proceed with the rear deck which I still needed to glue in place but that meant that the Limbo was to be detailed first.
Started by making a detailed sketch of each of the 4 sides, using the plans but also adding various features by looking at the photographs I could lay my hands on. Believe the end-result is 90% correct, making allowances for the differences between individual vessels but also noting in the very early versions an accommodation-style ladder was in place before being replaced by more ordinary, bulkhead-fixed ladders or, in some case, discarding those altogether (front section of the Limbo well, leading onto the flight deck) .
The side panes were made of styrene sheet which were further detailed using photo-etched W/T door (Cammett's, no better than those !), brass wire, mesh sheet and once these were painted fixing them against the multiplex sides making up the well.
With that done, I proceeded to fix the rear most deck section in place, which will now allow me to finish the hull and concentrate on the various deck fittings and superstructure. Another year I reckon but making steady progress...
Also find it motivating and actually quite helpful to keep my focus, by setting one self interim targets for sub-components, before moving onto the next job - gives a sense of satisfaction and also avoids forgetting certain details which then gradually slip one's attention and end up never being fitted at all !
Finally also made the anchor chain plates leading onto the capstans, using litho plate - quite pleased with how these have come out.
Enjoy the photographs.
E
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Judging by what you have done so far, the mortar well is going to become a major feature of your model - looks great so far... :-)
Regards,
Ray.
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It looks just like the ones I have seen in the little films on Youtube :-)) And so much detail in such a small well.
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Progress has been slow but picking up the slack again - needed to do a major putty job on the port deck, where there was a clear knuckle where one wasn't supposed to be - sanding and resanding, and a lot of it as I had to lay it thick in places, but finally got it right again.
With that out of the way, I sprayed the deck green and am now readying everything for a first coast of gray, involved a lot of taping and masking as can be seen !
The goal is still to finish the hull entirely before the summer is out, and can then switch to the superstructure in the winter - hoping to complete the model in 2018 !
Will send some further photographs hopefully later today as the weather is ideal for a quick airbrush job.
E
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Had some trouble uploading photographs, hopefully it will work this time round
E
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2nd set
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Wowsers, that is a lot of Tamiya tape, but worth it if you then do not need to spend ages touching up seepage or worse paint pulled damage or even wiping and cleaning off gum from the tape.
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It is true that the asking job took ages, I reckon the better part of an hour at least !
But certainly well worth it, and would recommend it for it is easier to spend a little extra time upfront rather than having to redo thing afterwards....
Attached the end result once everything was removed and a shine grey hull appeared - quite like the contrast between the black boot topping the grey hull and the spring-green deck: need some getting used to !
This little love child has also been baptised now, Argonaut it is and added the name to the stern and painted it red.
There is one thing that did slightly intrigue me when using the airbrush the other day, when spraying the deck: after drying there was a fine coat of 'dust', which came off when wiping a finger over the painted surface, as if some of the paint droplets did not stick ??
Anyone any idea what is causing this ? Is this the result of a wrong thinner ?
E
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Re the dust, my bet would be it was just dried paint. If you are spraying in this weather the paint can dry before it hits the deck but as long as its just brushed off no harm done.
Keep up the good work
Cheers
Geoff
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My thoughts as I had a it a bit on M19 when I primed the hull the other week when we had a ration of Summer.
She looks great :-))
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testing to see if I can add to this post
E
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I take it there is no update available? or are you collating your photo's :-)) O0
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Had some trouble uploading the photographs, but here's the progress: did some work around the funnel, painted the superstructure, finished the gun turret, and various other bits and bobs. Back on track now and hopefully there won't be another 2 year break from this build !
E
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Something wrong with resizing the photographs it seems....but you get the general idea :-)
If ever anyone could share some more info on the layout of the signalling paltform behind the main mast, containing the optical directors and searchlights, I would be most grateful - it is virtually impossibe to find any photographs on the internet of this part of the ship bizarrely enough....
Thanks in advance,
E
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That Vickers 4.5" Twin Mounting looks the goods :-))
A few interesting points
1. The little rectangular armour float glass prism windows for the Gun Captain were tinted light green and were some 2" thick........
2. The Sailors in the lower magazine wore raincoats during gun exercises as the hydraulic systems were renown as leaky :-X
Derek
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Interesting snippets of info Derek, these are the sort of things you don't realise when building models !
Cheers
E