Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: Mark T on November 11, 2016, 03:01:06 pm
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Hi All
My first post in the steam section so here goes; Now that I'm nearing the end of my current build I am thinking about making my next build steam powered. I'm currently reading a couple of books namely 'scale model steam boats' by Phillip Williams and 'model marine steam' by Stan Bray. They are both very informative and easy to read and are helping me get a grounding before making the leap. I'm not entirely new to steam as I have worked on industrial steam mainly turbines and pipework so I understand the respect that it requires.
I'm thinking about building the Panart Anteo Harbour Tug which is 1:30 scale and it looks like a nice model with a double planked hull. I am also thinking about powering it with an Anton steam plant. Now I know that they are very expensive but having looked a a few options I really love the engineering that these motors have but I am obviously only basing this on what I've read and not actual experience.
So would a combination of this tug and a Anton Crystal 3.1 motor work well together? Can anyone forsee any fitting issues that would stop me in my tracks? Ideally I would like to buy all of my steam plant from the same manufacturer and although the lead times are quite long Anton can do this for me. I like the idea of being able to go to one supplier should any issues arise. If you could share your thoughts with me I would very much appreciate it. I do have a million other questions but this is my first step in getting this project moving.
Oh and one last thing - If I did buy from France would I need to get a British certification for the boiler?
Thanks Mark
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Bonjour Mark,
As a French steam passionate who buys for his collection, I have several Anton http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/ (http://www.anton-vapeur.fr/) and several JMC http://jmc.vapeur.free.fr/ (http://jmc.vapeur.free.fr/) steam plants. Both of them are reliable and just for me, as you talk about the Cristal : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f1uoF22NU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42f1uoF22NU) I would suggest you also to look at the JMC 3 cm3 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBwO-jLAfnI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBwO-jLAfnI) which is in my Lechalas : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46kYI-yJyB0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46kYI-yJyB0)
The two engines also exist in 4,5 cm3 for Anton and 5 cm3 for JMC (in my 1,32 m / 11 kilos Jacques tug ).
When I started in my passion, I had in mind 1 kilos = 1 cm3, and with experience, at our scale, it can be wrong, our steam plants are too powerful and our boats too fast. For example, I have a 16 kilos Fulgerul which is equipped with two 2 cm3 Quartz Anton : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jombigGCM8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jombigGCM8).
To my opinion, the impottant thing is to find the appropriate propeller and boiler to the engine, large enough, but not too much, to let the engine run gently and save steam for autonomy.
Besides this, a tug needs power and, if you build this 1,20 m / 27 kilos Anteo tug :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1B6etQ30b8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1B6etQ30b8) I fear 3 cm3 will not be enugh.
My 21 kilos / 1,20m tug JAN has a Stuart D10, but I navigate pulled by it at 1 bar ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l_-js-fX_I (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l_-js-fX_I)
There is an alternative quite less expensive in China but it is a 6,78 cm3 : http://www.microcosm-engine.com/ (http://www.microcosm-engine.com/) and the boiler sold with it is too small for me : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM)
In France, I confirm, we do not go to an official certification organism for our little boilers, it is not a problem, they are 1,5 mm copper thick and can run without problem at 10 bars (Anton and JMC test them at this pressure).
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Bonjour Mark,
In France, I confirm, we do not go to an official certification organism for our little boilers, it is not a problem, they are 1,5 mm copper thick and can run without problem at 10 bars (Anton and JMC test them at this pressure).
And there was me thinking we had to test our small boilers because of an EEC directive Vive la différence Balders
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Bonjour
Thanks very much for your input and also the attached links. That makes some very interesting watching however those models are bigger than the one I intend to build. Sorry thats my fault as I should have said about the size of the hull of the model that I am interested in building.
The model that I was thinking about is 0.890 meters in length which is a little bit smaller than the models in the links. However do you think that a 4.5 engine would be more suitable? It was Anton that recommended the 3.1 engine but I take your point about matching the correct boiler, engine, propeller size to get the best from the combination.
I'm very wary of buying Chinese motors. Now I know that they are a lot cheaper but in my experience of buying this kind of item is that they have no after sales back up. This would be very important for me and I would rather pay more to get good manufacturer guarantees. I guess if I had more experience in this area I may not be so bothered.
I don't mind not getting the correct certification with the boiler as from what I have read of this product it is top notch. So I guess with a bit of planning I could get it certified in the UK - well I like to think that I could?
Can you see any issues with fitting a steam plant in this particular hull? http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/info_1_743.html
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Bonjour Mark,
Sorry, I had in mind the Anteo I saw and should have asked you the size of yours.
Based on this new assumption, my owm opinion, and I would be happy if other members would confirm it is that a 3.1 cm3, coming from Anton is enough :-))
Yes, you will have room enough to install a steam plant in 90 cm. As another example, my 0,82 cm Otto Lauffer and Jan de Sterke tugs navigate quite well with 2 cm3 JMC steam pants : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGLRY3JCiiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGLRY3JCiiU)
Otto has an horizontal 80 x 120 mm boiler which gives it about 20 minutes of autonomy (2 bars), but Jan has a vertical smaller one, so I added it a servo pump because its original coupled one was not efficient enough : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs1c7Xqjo9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs1c7Xqjo9g)
About China, I took the risk and have had no problem with after sales, Jin sent me or free all the missing or broken parts, the only concerns are the duration of the travel and the fact that we talk together through Google translator so possibe misundertanding (I take pictures of what I ask). I think he knows he has to be perfect and all the friends who also buy him have no problem.
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Thanks Raphael; looking at your videos you really have some lovely boats :-))
I was a bit worried that a boat of that size would have been too small. I still think that the steam plant layout will need a lot of thought as like you model Otto Lauffer I was hoping to install a water tank. I believe that Anton make a simple lift pump that fits directly onto the crank shaft of the engine.
I need to do a lot more reading on this subject - oh and a lot of saving {-)
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Bonjour Mark,
Yes Anton makes little feed pumps, example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7LilKb7uw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw7LilKb7uw)
And personnaly speaking, I prefer to pick-up the water in the pond, no risk of leak or miss, no weight issue, just a filter to install just in case : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKRDUUG4dxI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKRDUUG4dxI)
The Anteo hull is deep and large, you can install a steam plant, the issue is its access ==> The important thing is to plan the deck of the ship before it is finished. I have been obliged to cut the one of my JAN because it was 10 cm wide and the boiler... 12. Same problem on my Saint-Charles (another kit) {:-{ ...
A friend always tells me "If you build a steam boat, build it arount its steam plant instead of trying to install one in your boat". I confirm, he is right and you are right to take time for thinking O0
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I think that the pump may have just been added to my want list. My wife is going to go mad <*< Oh well such is life %%
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I fully understand you because not only my wife lets me buy plenty of boats that literally invade our apartment https://goo.gl/photos/bfvaHWL84YnfmgSr6 and besides this, I tinker in the dining room on a garden table after having ruined the worktop of the kitchen with my saws and drills ... It is always a curiosity for my guests because I can not clean everything everyday.
I have no doubt, she loves me as much as I love her :-))
About your wish list, do not forget the double diaphragm gas regulator (much smoother than the single one), the RC safety gas valve and the most important... the whiste !
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Wow as much as my wife loves me; if I damaged the kitchen worktop even I know that I would be a dead man :embarrassed:
Thanks for the tips and yes my wish list has just got even bigger :-)) Could you recommend a whistle manufacturer?
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Bonjour Mark,
I do not know many manufacturers, I buy either Anton or JMC whistles as they use metric measures compliant with their plants :
Anton example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0WxFY4xzAM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0WxFY4xzAM)
JMC example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA-D4mQ3I9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA-D4mQ3I9g)
And I prefer JMC ones as they have a lower sound.
If you can adapt US measures by buildind an adaptor with different threads (example for boilers which have no room https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9zPSqf2rMw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9zPSqf2rMw)), I also bought two different Micrcosm ones !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNtaZcQYGeQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNtaZcQYGeQ)
Oups, I note that I also regularly invade the bathroom and the bathtube...
PS : A beautiful Topaz with an Anton Jade 3.1 steam plant and a JMC whistle :} : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kifkESTY9I4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kifkESTY9I4)
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Hi Raphael
Well after some really good communications with Anton I have placed an order for a Cristal 3.1 motor, boiler, insulation kit and oil/water separator. They have quite long lead times and he thinks that the motor will be ready early March 2017 with the boiler to follow shortly after. This works out great for me as I want to start building around that time after I have completely finished my current build.
I have explained to them that I build slowly and that I will order all of the other parts as and when I need them including the much needed whistle :-)) Thanks for your help and I have enjoyed watching your videos. No doubt when I start my build I will have many more questions for the forum
Mark
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Bonjour Mark,
Vey good choice indeed
Anton is one person, Fabrice BRETAGNE, he is appreciated all around the world, this is why he is so long. Do not forget the oiler, the RC steam valve, the gas tank, the gas regulator (double membrane is the best) and the safety RC cut gas valve. When yoi order the boiler, do not forget to mention that you will install these accessories and also ask as steam valve as I added one, otherwise, when you heat, you can not open the oiler.
On my side, I have, installed the RC gas valve and all the servos of my Cristal plant :
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMbS_AlcsmOwCWDZt6F8EF4yIJfbziyXr6Dv52y04Ts8GTu5lGhJ7qpnZJsJ8E2Ug?key=Tm5jT1Z5RjEzblRiVWRPelZBSGlBTzFnVzM3QW9n (https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMbS_AlcsmOwCWDZt6F8EF4yIJfbziyXr6Dv52y04Ts8GTu5lGhJ7qpnZJsJ8E2Ug?key=Tm5jT1Z5RjEzblRiVWRPelZBSGlBTzFnVzM3QW9n)
i just have to finalize all the electrical wiring for my usual bthtub initial test ok2
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Yes I spoke to Fabrice today and between his slight English and my slight French we managed to have a good conversation. He asked me to call back on Monday and speak to his wife as she speaks fluent English and will finalise the details of what I want.
When you say get a steam valve fitted to the boiler will she know what I mean or will I need to elaborate as I'm not sure what I'm asking for? As for all of the other bits I will get them as I go along mainly due to cost. I want the plant so that I can make sure it fits perfectly into the build.
Your build looks absolutely lovely :-))
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Bonjour Mark,
I know Fabrice and Christine well, so I have added pictures of all what I mention in the album whose link is in my previous message, I send them the link so that you can refer to the pictures to explain what you wish :-))
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Fantastic thanks Raphael :-)) I'll let you know how I get on but it should be straight forward.
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Mark......yes, Christine does speak fluent English ....however after the conversation, scribe a confirmation e-mail as a series of points and auto translate a copy to French....also ask that she acknowledges the points in the e-mail
This way should eliminate any <:( when you open the package due to a misunderstanding or translation
I have the T shirt :o...... and a JMC3H engine which had weigh shaft issues.......Derek
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Mark...I agree with Raphael that the boiler steam should be capable of being isolated within the boiler, however to perform a hydrostatic cold water or steam retest for your Club certification would be easier if isolation valves are fitted to every boiler port tapping
So having said this, I have three [3] fluid ports on my ACS boiler......1 x steam discharge, 1 x chosen as make up water inlet and 1 x chosen as water pressure signal for my gas pressure reducing valve
After spending a working lifetime of inspecting fluid systems for pressure integrity in Mercantile, Naval and industrial hydraulic system's, using appropriate isolation valving was a pre-requisite ....[it may seem odd, however establishing the source of fluid decay at 250 Bar is fare easier than at pressures of 2 to 5 Bar]
From this, I have installed isolation valves to each of the 3 tapping's
[Remember that the ANTON boiler will have M6 port tapping's, so any connection fitting must be metric and not any of the myriad of British ME/BA/BSF tapping's that do appear in British manufactured boilers]
Derek
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OK......to the PM sender...yes I am incorrect :embarrassed:......the boiler has 2 additional tapping's O0.....a water filling tapping port and the relief valve tapping port .............however these are sealed with an SAE or UNO style semi captive O-ring......however as such are still subjected to the pressure of the hydrostatic test .....Derek
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Hi Derek thanks for the advice I suddenly feel that I am the only person on Mayhem who does not know Fabrice and Christine {-) but I am looking forward to getting to know them.
I now have a far better understanding of what I require so thanks for that. When I call Christine I think I will ask if they can supply the boiler with an isolation valve for each outlet so that I have actually got them even if I relocate some of them to the pipework at a later date. Having thought this through I can imagine the bother of having to seal every outlet after moving the existing pipework etc out of the way for any test - no thanks {:-{ I'll fit the valves
I do have one question that I cannot seem to find an answer for; from what I can see I can fit a lift pump to fill a water tank which then fills the boiler to prolong sailing times. If I have understood this correctly how does low / no pressure water enter a high pressure boiler?
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Mark........yes the make up water check valve before the boiler is shown in image ....993.....here is a better view
Each water make up pump [which has the capability of exceeding the boiler pressure] has an integral suction and deliver valve which acts as a check valve. In addition to this I have installed an additional check valve on the discharge side of the pump spools
The check valves chosen are the Winfried Niggle "in line" soft ball style valves......they have proved to withstand 6 Bar test pressure
___________________________________________________________________________
Rückschlagventil-Inline 450 100
17.10 €
incl. MwSt
zzgl. Versand
Rückschlagventil-Inline 450 100
Material: Messing
Länge: 43 mm über alles
Durchmesser: SW 10 mm
Rohr-Anschluss: Beidseitige Verschraubungen mit Konuseinlötnippeln und Überwurfmuttern für 4mm Rohr.
Die Elastomere-Ventilkugel schliesst absolut dicht.
Für den Einbau von Speisepumpe zum Kessel
Durchflussrichtung eingraviert
________________________________________________________________
Derek
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Ahh now that makes sense :-)) Do you feed this water into a tank before the boiler or do you just feed the pump directly into the boiler? Nice pipework by the way especially the smart looking flanges.
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Mark......the only sailing water available to me is brackish [salt meets fresh] so I will need to build an on board tank
Having said this, many model steam builds on MBM draw water from under the vessel...[Jerry C's build thread] details this very well...he also sails on very clean [drinkable] fresh water
If you intend to sail on clean water, you could consider one of the DuBRO model aeroplane fuel filters ......will only keep floating leave & the like out
You need to remember not to restrict the pump suction line by design
Just one last point with the isolation valves [M6 to 3 or 4 mm tube] from ANTON......if you do order these, have them supplied as loose items. This then gives you the opportunity to install them with the necessary annealed copper or aluminium washers to attain the tube alignment you require as opposed to being preinstalled with French Loctite
This is only one scenario...yes have a French steam discharge valve for direct porting to the boiler, then have metric screwed close fitting 90 degree banjo fittings then install British [tube to tube] isolation valves. This may assist in the placement of components
You also mention earlier additional French gas or water components, again remember these fittings will have metric nuts & cones.......[a 3mm cone will accept 1/8" OD tubing, a 4mm cone will accept 5/32" OD tubing]
I am often scalded for going to extremes, however you also mention a French lubricator......there are alternatives which include quartz glass like lubricator bodies which provide a visual confirmation of steam oil to condensate level.......more expensive than a sealed brass body....however I suggest is cheap insurance for your valuable steam plant
Winfried Niggle [Germany] produces such a lubricator, Microcosm [China] produces a variant of quartz tube within a scalloped brass body...
I have chosen the Niggle lubricator [image below], simply as it was available and prior to the Microcosm production...next time around I see no reason not to use the Microcosm unit
Derek
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Bonjour,
Personally, most of my boats with coupled pumps take water in the pond like the tugs Moulay-Idris or Jan with RC car fuel filters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKRDUUG4dxI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKRDUUG4dxI) ==> never got any problem.
About glass lubricators, I also have several ones (JMC and Microcosm): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPt0ouL8kzc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPt0ouL8kzc) I have to confess that I find them less efficient than the full metal ones, they use less oil, perhaps because the glass cools less than the metal, so the steam has more difficulties to come back to water. For fun, see the size of the one I coupled to the D10 of Jan.
During my last tests, the lubricator Microcosm did not consume oil, I have enlarged its intake hole and have to make new tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO16806-3pM) I also find its disposition not the best because not on the flow of the steam.
It is a pity that there is no worldwide norm for measures, European are metrics, USA, GB or China imperial, so it is very difficult for buyers like me to mix the products.
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Bonjour Raphael
Your comments are every interesting.. I have chosen a lubricator with fixed orifice, although Winfried Niggle produces the same unit, however with a variable metering valve for oil flow
Here in Australia with higher ambient temperatures such condensation does not appear to be a problem
In a perfect world, I would like to think manufacture's would adopt German metric [to DIN] as the standard........as metric fittings can vary between Germany, France and Japan.... yes all metric 60 degree thread form....but <*< different diameters x pitches.....
Derek
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Thanks both for the advice. I decided quite early on to try and stick to one manufacturer. This is purely down to my inexperience in this area and I like to think that I can go back to one source should I have any issues. As I have found this is not the cheapest route but as I get more experience and confidence no doubt that will change.
I will order the valves as separate items as I take your point about component location. Just out of interest is there a preference to which size pipe is used 3 or 4mm?
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Bonjour,
Derek, you say that in your country, the temperature is higher, so you should have more condensation problems. I am not a specialist but I feel without any real measure that a metal lubricator exchanges better temperature with air than a glass one and colder the air is better the condensation is. Most of my lubricators are fixed, with a hole of about 0,3 - 0,4 mm, I think your choice is correct because the variable adjustment does not seem to change anything in my case. With my Microcosm lubricator, it seem that the steam does not go in it, this is why I have enlarged the diameter of the intake pipe with a small drill. If nothinh changes, I have a Stuart lubricator, I will manage to install it to see if there is a difference.For information, as you know it, Anton lubricators are only fix and metal.About measures, I think we dream...
Mark, you make the good choice, Anton is expensive but fullly reliable before ad after the purchase.
About pipes, for our models I mean, the rule I note is that the exhaust ones are commonly 1 mm larger than the inlet one (except on my Cristal plant grrrrr....).
Besides this, you have no choice because you have to respect the diameters of the Cristal machine pipes ==> I would recommend you to ask Anton which diameters he uses now. And of course, he will sell you compliant valves or other accessories with his products as soon as you accuratly tell him what you wish and where.
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Bonjour Raphael
You are certainly correct that Brass metal has an approx.~~ x 10 fold ability to transfer heat over Boro Glass, however we should not confuse this thread for Mark
He appears to have made his decisions and we wish him well in his purchases & build
Derek
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I phoned Christine today and had a chat about the first stage of my order. Although she understood the major components, when we started talking a specification we both got a bit lost in the translation %%
So I've sent her a translated email explaining how I intend to connect various items to the boiler such as a gas controller, whistle and water inlet for the pump and I have also asked the size of the pipe work that Fabrice uses so that I can order loose isolation valves. Hopefully I'll get a reply soon
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Derek / Raphael
Just to let you know that I have had my order confirmed which I'm really pleased about. Fabrice has advised me that the supply pipes are 3.5mm in diameter and the exhaust is slightly larger at 4mm. Also the boiler sizes are 6mm at the front of the boiler as he describes it and 8mm on the boiler body? Does this sound correct to you for my purpose as I have plenty of time to change the spec?
Thanks again Mark
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Mark......ANTON no longer displays boilers on his WEB site however the following would appear to apply..
3.5mm OD tubing will ~~ equate back down to 1/8" OD tube
4.0mm OD tubing will directly suit 5/32" nuts & cones
6.0mm as previously suggested will be an M6 screwed tapping for the steam discharge
M6 tapping's will probably be used for the water gauge and relief valve, however again I assume these are being supplied
8.0mm is assumed as the M8 screwed tapping for the water inlet
Fabrice will certainly have at his disposal electronic copies of his boiler construction and should make one available to you as your British Club Boiler Inspector may wish to view the construction detail
This latter point [Australian Boiler inspection] was a direct experience for me, however thankfully I was able to confirm construction detail for my Scottish ACS manufactured boiler
Derek
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Thanks Derek you have confirmed what I had thought. I will ask for the plans of the boiler as I really had not considered this and will hopefully make life a little easier later on :-))
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Bonjour Mark,
Generally speaking, in France, when we talk about 6 mm diameter, we mean 6x75 and 8 mm means 8x100. Warning, there are thin and large threads for every diameter so we have to be accurate because a 8x75 male is close but not usable in a 8x100 female !
I have never noticed 3,5 mm pipes but 3 mm for inlet pipes, I am surprized by this figure.
On my boilers, when I ordered them, I have asked 6x75 on the sides but 6x75 and 8x100 on the top, depending on on the accessories added (for example, most of my safety valves and filling caps are 8 x 100 when the steam or the whistle valves are 6 x 75.
When you buy a boiler, you have often only 3 accesses on the top and you are obliged to fill the boiler with the safety valve.
I am sure that french and english measures are not compatible even if they look close (close does not mean equal) ==> I would strongly suggest you to ask all the needed nuts and olives to Fabrice for all the fittings.
If he does not build any boiler currently, I know he knows someone who does, so you can also ask him for a quotation and you can ask your specifications, especially if you wish options like a check valve for a pump by example. This is my problem with my Microsocm boiler, no acces enough for a pump and imperial nuts...
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Hi Raphael
I've checked the sizes and you are quite right. Fabrice said that the M6 is 0.75 and the M8 is 1.00. I was intending on getting all of the fittings from Anton as the range is very good. I have confirmed that I require 4 - 6mm outlets for the boiler so hopefully all will be well. Luckily I'm in no rush to get all of the parts that I require for now I'm just getting the main parts
Mark
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Bonjour Mark,
To my OWN opinion, only 6 x 75 is not the good option fr the top of the boiler. When I asked boilers, I used to asl 2 6x75 for the steam and the whistle valves and 2 8 x 100 for the safety valve (check if 6x75 safety valves exists) and the filling plug which need place to accept a pipe.
I would have greatly appreciate that other members give also their opinions...
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Hi Raphael
You are quite correct - it's my fault for not explaining myself better :embarrassed: There are two 8mm ports on the top of the boiler and I have tried to attach a picture of it that Fabrice sent me. Hopefully it Will work but I'm doing this from my phone. If it doesn't I'll post it up on Friday when I get home
Mark
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Bonjour Mark,
Ah ! the language barrier ... "Tout est bien qui finit bien" :-))
Always at your disposal if you need further information.
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Bonjour Raphaël Merci beaucoup mon ami :-)
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A small thread resurrection here %%
Well having waited 7 months for my order from Anton to arrive - it's still not here so I have cancelled my order <:( . He is very busy manufacturing and also moving workshops at the same time which has delayed my order quite substantially. I will go back to Fabrice at some point in the future as his work is amazing but I am really missing building so I need a plan B
As I have said I want to build the Anteo tug which is 900mm long. I am now unsure which way to go with the steam plant. The options I'm thinking about are
1. A TRV1A engine and maybe speak to someone like Tony Green about the boiler side of things. I am unsure however of the actual size of this engine and whether it will be suitable. I don't want to fit an oscillating engine into this build
2. Buy the whole lot from Microcosm as I have now read so many good things about them
As always your thoughts would be very much appreciated as I've got to get building again soon
Mark
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Bonjour Mark,
A friend, Guy, has built an Anteo of 1,20 m and 27 kilos, equipped with a TVR1A : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1B6etQ30b8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1B6etQ30b8)
Please take in account that it is a 8 cm3 engine which needs a large boiler if you wish some autonomy.
I have a Microcosm plant in my tug "Vient de loin" which is similar in size to Anteo : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOgJV8Xc7qU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOgJV8Xc7qU)
the engine is only "6,78" cm3 but the boiler is very small and the autonomy is about 20 minutes with a gentle use of the boat and the whistle ==> I have bought an electric pump (Microcosm) but did not find yet where to install it ==> would strongly recommand you to take, if you choose it, the engine with its coupled water pump.
Otherwise, you can find french smaller machines with Anton (sorry for the current unpleasantness) or JMC manufacturers who makes a very nice 5 cm3 which is in my 11 kilos tug Jacques : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oppu7Mbj4X8 and even a 3 cm3 in my 11 kilos drifter Osprey : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlSgIe1JsHY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlSgIe1JsHY)
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Hi Raphael
Great to hear from you again :-) Your friends Anteo is lovely and the installation of his steam plant is amazing. The Anteo that I want to build is 890mm long so its quite a bit smaller than your friends. I was thinking about installing either a TVR1A and fitting a mechanical boiler feed pump as I understand that one of the members on this forum may possibly make them.
Or I was thinking of fitting this http://www.microcosm-engine.com/new-twocylinder-steam-engine-live-steam-with-steam-boiler-p-113.html#.WUQUUzPMyRs
Its a lovely engine and it can also be supplied with a mechanical boiler feed pump but I'm not sure of its to big for the model. I'm not talking about power but about physical size? What do you think?
Mark
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Bonjour Mark,
It is exactly the steam plant I have in my tug "Vient de lion", this is why I think that the same one with the coupled pump could just just go in 90 cm. Bad luck, I do not see the evolution of his engine on his site (I will ask him if he sells it, we are in touch).
The best would be to have everything on one platinum to introduce it easily in the boat example : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHN5lmppT0g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHN5lmppT0g)
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Yes this is what I was planning - to have the whole plant on one platform so that it can be removed for easy maintenance etc. I have emailed Jin at Microcosm to see what he thinks and I have also emailed Cornwall Model Boats which is where I would buy my kit form to see what they think also. Fingers crossed!
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Hi Tony,
Why not use Cheddar for the boiler side? Tim can certainly help with the specification/needs.
I've recently purchased one from him through Clevedon and it's absolutely spot on, even though it was to a modified design. Price and delivery were both very realistic.
As far as tugs are concerned I remember using a Cheddar boiler with a York engine years ago on a 36inch/19lb Saint class rescue tug with a 70mm prop. Plenty of power and plenty of steam, even for a heavyweight oscillator.
TonyH
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Hi Tony
Thanks for the advice. I've dropped Tim an email with my specifications so I'll see what he says. Just out of interest how long did it take for your boiler to arrive after you ordered it?
Mark
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Hi Mark,
Sent drawings to Cheddar via Gerry at Clevedon Steam at the end of November - Received boiler latter half of February, again via Gerry who supplied all the bits to go with it except for the separator which was an odd design I built to suit the boat.
I also made the bedplate because the boiler was horizontal and offset from the centre line by 5mm but the engine was on the centre line and angled down by a few degrees.
Tony
PS Apologies for renaming you - It's an age thing :embarrassed:
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Thanks Tony - three months for something bespoke is a very good lead time. I'm actually not looking for anything special but I'll see what Tim says when he comes back to me. Originally I wanted to buy the whole system from one supplier but over the months I've learned so much that this is not such an issue for me anymore. I just want to get it right so cheers again for the help :-))
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Hi Mark,
I've just discovered your thread. I think Anton would have been a good choice, too bad he can't deliver.
Since you'd like to buy all steam parts from one source, have you checked out Regner in Germany? http://www.regner-dampftechnik.de
They have a fery varied offer (steam locomotives, boilers, marine engines etc) and also very good after sales service.
Cheers,
Calin
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Bonjour,
A 92 cm Anteo with a Gage TVR1A : https://youtu.be/XrKd4jzpl30 :-))
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I would just like to thank everyone for their input on this thread. I have at last after speaking to many people placed an order with Nigel at Pendle steam. He is making me the boiler, seperator and gas tank. He was extremely helpful even to the point where he asked me how I was mounting the boiler. I said that I was mounting it on a plate so he's putting some small feet on it with a BA thread tapped in to make the job easier for me. I'm really looking forward to receiving my order in a few weeks. I'll get some photos up when it does.
I've also ordered a TVR1ABB motor and one of the members on this forum is making a boiler feed pump for me which really sealed the deal for me with taking this route. I've just got to be patient now!
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I would just like to thank everyone for their input on this thread. I have at last after speaking to many people placed an order with Nigel at Pendle steam. He is making me the boiler, seperator and gas tank. He was extremely helpful even to the point where he asked me how I was mounting the boiler. I said that I was mounting it on a plate so he's putting some small feet on it with a BA thread tapped in to make the job easier for me. I'm really looking forward to receiving my order in a few weeks. I'll get some photos up when it does.
Glad you got good service. I have to say that with all my dealings with suppliers none get near the personal service I received from Nigel TJ . I wanted a bespoke burner for my old Cheddar restoration and although not part of their range Nigel designed one and sent me drgs so I could check it was OK , then made it in double quick time and sent me a U-Tube video of the burner on test . All for a very reasonable price , I rate him highly.
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I am partial to the extremely easy to build and operate V twin #8 PM research (1/2 x 3/4 b+s). It puts out a good amount of power, subjectively more than the TVR, and in a compact size. This in conjunction with Pendle 3.5 or 4" boiler would make a great match.
Additionally the PMResearch engine is super easy to run with only single RC control arm. No hackworth issues...
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I am partial to the extremely easy to build and operate V twin #8 PM research (1/2 x 3/4 b+s). It puts out a good amount of power, subjectively more than the TVR, and in a compact size. This in conjunction with Pendle 3.5 or 4" boiler would make a great match.
Additionally the PMResearch engine is super easy to run with only single RC control arm. No hackworth issues...
Additionally it comes as a kit so you can have the fun of building it.
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Bonjour,
The PM Research is a 9,65 cm3, so it needs a lot of steam and, to my opinion, needs an additional coupled water pump to be installed in a 90 cm boat if a reasonable autonomy is expected.
Here is one exemple of a Graham installed on a removable platform : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrtFh6a15qU
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Here is one exemple of a Graham installed on a removable platform : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrtFh6a15qU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrtFh6a15qU)
Hello Raphaël,
That looks more like a PM Research #8 engine to me?
Kind regards,
Bob
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Bonjour Bob,
Yo are absolutely right, I wanted to illustrate the PMR discussion and confused with the Graha one also evoked, good observation, thank you for your appropriate remark :-))
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Hello again Raphaël,
I have been thinking about buying the PM Research #8 engine. I have reviewed quite a few of you videos and enjoy them very much. Do you have one of these engines? I imagine that with such a large bore and stroke, it must be quite steam thirsty and do you know what the maximum steam pressure one can run with this engine? I am thinking it must be quite low because of the type of seals used around the piston.
Kind regards,
Bob
Bonjour Bob,
Yo are absolutely right, I wanted to illustrate the PMR discussion and confused with the Graha one also evoked, good observation, thank you for your appropriate remark :-))
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diwGIN3AWtc&index=33&list=UUYQskpmHyALB5hsentYB_6g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diwGIN3AWtc&index=33&list=UUYQskpmHyALB5hsentYB_6g)
no problem running at 5-20 psi, although gauge shows 60 psi, main valve to engine only cracked open a bit...
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Bonjour Bob,
I have not had any opportunity to have one PMR but my friend Eric has two of them. This one runs perfectly well at about 35 psi (2,5 bars) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRs65FekEM the second one does not run... and we do not know why {:-{
And you are right again, 8 cm3 need steam... Useful if power is really needed, but, often, we put too much power in our hulls and have a speed not realistic at all. My largest ratio cm3 weight is 4 with my gunboat Fulgerul ( 2 x 2 cm3, 16 kilos) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRs65FekEM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckakDalgPfY
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Hi Raphaël,
Thanks for the videos. It was nice to see the #8 in live action as well as you twin screw model. I imagine the PM #8 could easily turn a 90mm prop. I am undecided if I should go with a 3" or 3 1/2" prop for my Lady Margaret. The larger prop would turn a little below the keel whereas the 3" would be more to scale. I can get a 3" high pitch prop which should work well from the Prop Shop but I am still undecided. I will not be using the PM #8 for my Lady Margaret but for some other project.
Regards,
Bob
Bonjour Bob,
I have not had any opportunity to have one PMR but my friend Eric has two of them. This one runs perfectly well at about 35 psi (2,5 bars) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRs65FekEM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRs65FekEM) the second one does not run... and we do not know why {:-{
And you are right again, 8 cm3 need steam... Useful if power is really needed, but, often, we put too much power in our hulls and have a speed not realistic at all. My largest ratio cm3 weight is 4 with my gunboat Fulgerul ( 2 x 2 cm3, 16 kilos) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRs65FekEM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsRs65FekEM) and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckakDalgPfY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckakDalgPfY)
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Bonjour Bob,
I always use as large as possible propellers to slow down my machines, 4 blades and Proopshop generally:
2" or 2,5" for my 2 cm3, 2,75" for my 3 cm3, and 3,5" for my 7,5 cm3.
Examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl2NCWmyXA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl2NCWmyXA)
And how do you find thess ones ok2 ?
3,5" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZMHShJZBPU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZMHShJZBPU)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/helice6-liva1_imagesia-com_1eb05_small.jpg)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/helice1-liva1_imagesia-com_1eb04_small.JPG)
4,5" (for my Stuart D10) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYZJDJPBVg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYZJDJPBVg)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/jan-helice2_imagesia-com_1eb09_small.JPG)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/jan-helice1_imagesia-com_1eb08_small.JPG)
An exception (90 mm) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIbGjiD36xU
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/tr3_imagesia-com_1eb0a_small.JPG)
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Hello Raphaël,
Thank you for those wonderful videos. They were most informant and educational. That 4.5" prop on your D10 is quite the "Big Boy". I see that the 90mm prop on your version of the "Lady Margaret" does turn below the keel. I think the larger propellers look better than the smaller ones plus give better performance particularly is savings of using less steam by running lower rpms.
Regards,
Bob
Bonjour Bob,
I always use as large as possible propellers to slow down my machines, 4 blades and Proopshop generally:
2" or 2,5" for my 2 cm3, 2,75" for my 3 cm3, and 3,5" for my 7,5 cm3.
Examples : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl2NCWmyXA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVl2NCWmyXA)
And how do you find thess ones ok2 ?
3,5" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZMHShJZBPU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZMHShJZBPU)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/helice6-liva1_imagesia-com_1eb05_small.jpg)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/helice1-liva1_imagesia-com_1eb04_small.JPG)
4,5" (for my Stuart D10) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYZJDJPBVg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utYZJDJPBVg)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/jan-helice2_imagesia-com_1eb09_small.JPG)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/jan-helice1_imagesia-com_1eb08_small.JPG)
An exception (90 mm) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIbGjiD36xU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIbGjiD36xU)
(http://pimg.imagesia.com/fichiers/1eb/tr3_imagesia-com_1eb0a_small.JPG)
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bonjour Bob,
I confirm, on several of my boats, associated to a reasonable pressure of 2 bars, in adddition to the look, I have measured a gain of about 30 % on the initial autonomy by installing larger propellers :-))