Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: zooma on March 06, 2017, 09:00:02 pm
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A couple of years ago I bought a s/h TID tug to get me started at my new local model boat club and although it has performed well enough I was never too convinced about its accuracy and to be honest the build quality was rough and was best viewed from a distance.
However it did have a nice glass fibre hull so late last year I sent away for a 1/24 scale set of plans for the TID tug and set about tracing the outlines, making templates from old cereal packets and cutting the parts from 60 thou plastic card.
The hull was stripped and treated to a new plastic card deck, the superstructure was thrown away and I have now completed a new superstructure and built it as one of the early variants without an enclosed cabin.
For my first attempt at building from plan and at using plastic card I am quite happy with the way it has turned out as it is accurate to plan and now "looks right" but I am having some difficulty in finding out what colours were used on these early types during their WW2 service life.
Many of the grey painted TID models that I have seen have been sprayed with Halfords primer and simply varnished to give a mid grey finish and others have been painted in a very pale shade of grey - but some of the pictures of real TID tugs I have seen show the use of both light grey overall (like the light sky grey from Tamiya) and a slightly darker grey overall (like the slightly green tinted light sea grey from Tamiya) - and some have been camouflaged !
Some decks have been painted green, others brown and some are in the same grey as the superstructure.
Most wartime pictures of TID tugs are in black and white making it difficult to accurately identify the true painted colours and I know that wartime supplies of paint sometimes dictated the colours that were used ( and some were possibly re-painted whilst in service) - but all of the variants would appeal to me more than just leaving it in primer - even though it looks OKish and would save a lot of time !
If anyone can help me know what colours were used on the TID tugs that served during WW2 I would be very grateful to hear from you.
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Nothing really diffinitive on the colour scheme tbh have you seen this
http://www.medwaymaritimetrust.org.uk/tidtugs/pages/tidlist.html
Maybee Dodes or Shipmate 60 will come along and enlighten us
Dave
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Unlikely to have been green decks as the RN didn't use that colour for decks in WW2. There was also a shortage of green pigment in WW2 which is why the RN dropped using any green in their paints.
Maybe someone thought the decks were covered in semtex which could come in various colours.
Most likely going on what warships had is a medium to dark grey for the decks and a light grey for the weather works.
I'd love to see a photo of a camouflaged one.
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Thanks Dave,
I see some of the TID tugs went to the War Dept. (Army) and some to the US army too!
The picture of TID 20 at Sword beach is interesting - I wonder if the TIDs that went to the US service were in darker colours - like their PT boats perhaps ?
Maybe the slightly darker ( and with a hint of green) light sea grey paint was a possibility?
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Unlikely to have been green decks as the RN didn't use that colour for decks in WW2. There was also a shortage of green pigment in WW2 which is why the RN dropped using any green in their paints.
Maybe someone thought the decks were covered in semtex which could come in various colours.
Most likely going on what warships had is a medium to dark grey for the decks and a light grey for the weather works.
I'd love to see a photo of a camouflaged one.
There is a picture of an early camouflaged r/c model TID with open bridge like mine - if you type TID tugs on Google you can see it there.
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Yes but is there a photo of an actual TID tug in camouflage? The RN did actually set out in writing camo schemes for the larger ocean going tugs but nothing listed for a TID.
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During the War paint could be in short supply so there was not a "definitive" color.
The tugs were painted grey, whatever the nearest color to hand as tugs did not have the highest priority.
Bob
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http://www.medwaymaritimetrust.org.uk/pages/story01.htm
The link is to a page on the Medway Trust site that documents a TID in US Army service with some good pictures, unfortunately none in colour.
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Yes but is there a photo of an actual TID tug in camouflage? The RN did actually set out in writing camo schemes for the larger ocean going tugs but nothing listed for a TID.
I have only seen a camouflage scheme on this one TID model - it may have been a fanciful paint scheme that the builder added to "personalise" their model - but maybe they have seen a reference to one - perhaps when in tropical service?
It certainly looks different and if it were found to be "authentic" it would make a nice unusual TID colour scheme but I am thinking various (non camouflaged) shades of grey are the only variants that I am likely to find and guess those used by US Army are the most likely to throw up some interesting shades - if they kept them long enough to paint them !
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http://www.medwaymaritimetrust.org.uk/pages/story01.htm (http://www.medwaymaritimetrust.org.uk/pages/story01.htm)
The link is to a page on the Medway Trust site that documents a TID in US Army service with some good pictures, unfortunately none in colour.
Thanks for this link - a very interesting reference to an early "open cockpit" TID in US Army service with some good pictures showing some interesting detail - including the "tin-lid" cockpit cover with tubular support posts and the frame shape for the canvas screens.
As you say no colour references, but the pictures suggest that darker shades of grey may well have been used as well as the more familiar light grey shades. The pictures also show just how dirty these tugs would have been when in daily active service and this has given me some good ideas for "weathering" - once I have determined an authentic shade of grey paint to use.
I admit that a slightly darker grey (such as light sea grey) does appeal as it would make my TID just a little different from the other TID models I have seen - but I do not want to use it if it was never used in real life.
The chances are that it could have been used as it was an existing colour already in wartime use when a shortage of paint may have caused almost anything to be used if it was available - from any source!
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Chances are that the tug in question was Dark Admiralty Grey but in US service may have found patches of Olive Drab touch up. It's certain that being coal fired they would have very grimy!
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Chances are that the tug in question was Dark Admiralty Grey but in US service may have found patches of Olive Drab touch up. It's certain that being coal fired they would have very grimy!
That could make a camouflage look :)
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In home waters probably AP507A or its later equivalents (MS2 or G10, near enough Humbrol 27 or 112) all over with decks (unless laid with Semtex - colours included 'dirty tan', blue or green) the same AP507A.
In the Mediterranean and other sunny areas AP507C (later MS4A or G45, roughly Humbrol 28 or 147) with decks (if not Semtex) AP507A or later the even darker MS1 or G5.
It is also possible that an Admiralty Alternative scheme consisting of dark hull and light upperworks may have been used on occasion.
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Though, on second thoughts, were the TIDs anything to do with the Admiralty? Some were loaned to the RN, but they were built and operated by the Ministry of War Transport. So your guess is as good as mine.
Actually (just rambling here), maybe they were painted in MSS (Merchant Ship Sides) which was quite a bit lighter than AP507A and might account for why so many pictures of TIDs seem to be of a light hue.
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Jonty is right, the 507A, 507C colours were all Admiralty Grade paint and quite durable. In 1941, they introduced MSS (Merchant Ship Side) reflectance 14% and MSD (Merchant Ship Deck) for merchant ships. This paint was commercially available paint. MSD had a reflectance of 11%. Early 1943, they dropped MSS for Light MSS with a reflectance of 40%. As most photos of tugs around that time seem to be light grey. I’d say that is the TID colour.
[/size]Tugs were MOWT. [/font]
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Weird, the MSD didn't load.
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Thanks for all the advice - and the reasoning behind the advice as well.
Most TID tug pictures I have seen are a light grey colour and would fall in with your conclusions, so I guess the dark coloured TID tugs that we see pictured may have been over-painted at a later date?
The US Army ones (and some others) that I have seen also look very dark (even allowing for them all being very grubby!) so they must have been given a "local paint job" - or perhaps as already suggested - the shortage of paint may have caused some TID tugs to leave the ship yards without the correct light shade of grey that most of the fleet received.
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Perhaps the title should be changed to "50 Shades Of Grey" :-) Sorry, I couldn't resist... Seriously I love a TID tug...good luck with your build
Dale
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Thanks for all the advice - and the reasoning behind the advice as well.
Most TID tug pictures I have seen are a light grey colour and would fall in with your conclusions, so I guess the dark coloured TID tugs that we see pictured may have been over-painted at a later date?
/quote]
You might find the dark coloured photos were post war when the trend was black hulls. Those in the RMAS seem to have adopted the RNAS black & buff colours.
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TID 20 was pictured at Sword beach in June 1944 and was a very dark colour.
She was with the US Army at this time I believe.
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Worth looking carefully at the photos in the Medway Trust TID list. Admiralty ones flew the white ensign, but no indication about the others.
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Not sure if this helps or not but the US Coast Guard manned some vessels at D Day including landing craft. This colour photo from their website looks like there is a tug sitting in the UK beforehand coded 87 which is in standard US Navy Dark Blue Grey. The numbers could all just have been on there to help matters at D Day rather than being the normal number/pennant they carried.
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Thanks for posting that really helpful picture and for identifying the colour used - this does show that the US painted their tugs in a dark grey that may well be the dark colour I can see on the black and white pictures of some of the early TID tugs that were used by them.
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I'd say that is blue not grey. One trick though, we know that USN landing craft quite often used RN paint. {:-{
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Not sure if this helps or not but the US Coast Guard manned some vessels at D Day including landing craft. This colour photo from their website looks like there is a tug sitting in the UK beforehand coded 87 which is in standard US Navy Dark Blue Grey. The numbers could all just have been on there to help matters at D Day rather than being the normal number/pennant they carried.
Fairly certain that that is another Landing Craft Infantry (Large) ship not a tug. The dead giveaway is the large anchor on the stern which was for the LCI to pull it's self off the beach. The colour appears to be USN 20B Blue.
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Could they be either RN B20 or B30?
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Could they be either RN B20 or B30?
A closer match perhaps would be "Berwick Blue" or 507A. B30 is perhaps a little too green but B20 might be a match.
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I personally dont think we will ever find the definitive answer as the correct shade was never doccumented and lets face it we are talking war years here,Paint was in very short supply and more than likely if they were running short of one shade it was mixed in with another,in any case once the Tid had been steamed up the colour would have changed with all the soot...
This one is a bit like Whar does Tid actually stand for ...no real answer here either
Dace
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A closer match perhaps would be "Berwick Blue" or 507A. B30 is perhaps a little too green but B20 might be a match.
I would ignore that chart completely. We now know that 507B, 507A & G10 are one and the same colour with simply different levels of gloss. Also G45 and 507C are the same colour. Evidence is pointing to confirm that B5 & B15 are the same and B6 & B30 are the same. B55 by definition is a Blue with a reflectance of 55% not a green.
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Does anyone know for sure if the inside of the open cockpit of the early TID tugs was painted in the same colour as the main outside colour?
It was not unusual for MTB and MGB boats of the time to have a green interior cockpit colour - was this likely to be passed on to these open cockpit TID tugs?
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Zooma,
I live just a few miles from where these tugs was built in Thorn I with try and see what I can find out.
Regards Howard.
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Zooma,
I live just a few miles from where these tugs was built in Thorn I with try and see what I can find out.
Regards Howard.
Thanks Howard.
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Does anyone know for sure if the inside of the open cockpit of the early TID tugs was painted in the same colour as the main outside colour?
It was not unusual for MTB and MGB boats of the time to have a green interior cockpit colour - was this likely to be passed on to these open cockpit TID tugs?
A fleet order in 1943 stated that the horizontal and sloping surface inside the bridge of Coastal Forces craft were to be painted with the darkest colour in the camouflage screen. As most coastal craft after that date had B15 decks, I’d assume this is the colour used.
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B15 on the colour chart shown in this thread looks black.
I was aware that the inside of the coastal forces craft were often painted green but did not know that the horizontal surfaces were so dark but I would guess that this directive would have also applied to an open cockpit TID as well.
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As I said, that chart is a waste of time. B15 is a blue with a touch of grey with a reflectance of 15%. Have a look at BS381C 632 Dark Admiralty Grey. It also has a reflectance of 15% and will give you an idea of how dark it is.
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Just to really throw a spanner in the works here on couple of points about Grey paint
How on earth do you recreate a grey that might well have been lets say for arguments sake No1 and there is enough to do half the hull and they have in the yard a Grey No2 shade and they mix it up and create a grey that you will never match up.I will Guarantee that the majority of them were painted in this way...thus the variants of the grays....Not all of then would have been painted int he same shipyard and with so so many paint manufacterers out there NO actual 2 would be the same....We get this in the car industry all the time...you might well get a Light Admiralty Grey by say manufacterer X and one by by manufacterer X and I will Guarantee you one thing and this is fact they will be a difference.
There was NO industry standard in those days.
Dont believe me then simply go and buy a tin of Dulux lain white and then a Crown one and you will see a difference and they will both be a base white.
Lets face it everybody it is impossible to get a proper true represantation of a Grey tid....we can only guess what will be closest to it...Personally I would say that Any Grey automotive primer would be a pretty darned near match.
Now I am going to throw another spanner in the works .....what was the true color of the Celotex deck covering on the Deck in front of the Bridge and also at the stern and how do you do this to a true scale apperance,the half round timber foot holds are easy Celotex certaintly not
Dave
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You make a good point Dave, but the fact remains that although every TID was potentially a different colour shade to the next one there were some that were positively DARKER than others.
It is these darker early open cockpit yes that interests me at the moment as I have just completed my model of one and I am at the painting stage.
From what I can gather those early types used by the US Army were generally darker than most (but not all) others - and they more often than not used paint that was already in the UK - and almost anything (within reason) was used.
My guess is that this could have been just about anything from dark sea grey to light sea grey and almost anything in-between - possibly with a blue hue in most cases and possibly with a green hue in the case of light sea grey based mongrel mixes of paint.
This thread has helped me a lot and confused me a lot and it has sent me in several directions to find out more about the various colours of TID tugs. Now I am still confused - but a little wiser - and know enough now not to get too hung-up on actual shades as this did not happen in real wartime situations either!
On top of that, these coal burning vessels were often seen very dirty more often than they were seen squeaky clean (as they may have been after their war service had ben completed.)
Now I have decided to use a darker shade of grey - anything that looks right to my eye - and add some suitable weathering to make it look like it has seen some action.
I also have another s/h TID g/f hull that I may up make with another early type superstructure - and if I do I will paint it in another shade of dark grey - just to be different and to typify the colour variances that may have been seen on them during the early war years .
There are plenty of light grey coloured TID tug models about and I would like to make something a little different that could still be "correct" in so much that some were darker than most of the others!
Thanks for everyones input - it has all been read over and over and has caused me to think again (and agin) about these colour variations and helped me to make my mind up about how I am going to paint my own early open cockpit TID tug(s).
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SO what colour are you spraying the deck and the celotex covering how you done that
Dave
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SO what colour are you spraying the deck and the celotex covering how you done that
Dave
I will probably do what the ship yards did during the war - I will take a look to see what dark grey paints I have in my stock of various paints that I have acquired and mix something up that "looks right" - but they will all be shades of various greys used during the early wartime-period so they could even end up as being an "authentic" colour :)
The areas of the deck that would have been Celotex covered have been represented by a textured surface that I have achieved with a tiny burr, a Dremel and lots of time! The deck on my TID is made from plastic card so I was able to mark the areas where the covering started and stopped and made the textured surface areas in the right areas.
After painting and weathering I am hoping this will show the change in deck covering rather than just painting the deck the same all over.
As I said at the start of this thread I am new to making from plan - this is my first model - so I have a lot to learn but I am enjoying the experience and I will find out what works and what does not as I go along and use this experience to benefit my next model .
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I am just going to echo Stavros. The USN supplied it's ships, during WW 2, with the base paint, white, and the tinting formulas to make the appropriate colors, while at sea. As such, no two batches were exactly alike. This variation was also applied to yards and builders. In fact, many ships were delivered to the Navy and promptly repaint different colors and patterns. Another significant contributor to color/shade and reflectance variations was U/V degridation which happened exceedingly quickly. Much more so in the Pacific than the North Atlantic, but still a factor.
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Painting ships at sea must have been a bit hazardous at times - not too bad on the superstructure but painting the hull could have been "interesting".
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I am just going to echo Stavros. The USN supplied it's ships, during WW 2, with the base paint, white, and the tinting formulas to make the appropriate colors, while at sea. As such, no two batches were exactly alike. This variation was also applied to yards and builders. In fact, many ships were delivered to the Navy and promptly repaint different colors and patterns. Another significant contributor to color/shade and reflectance variations was U/V degridation which happened exceedingly quickly. Much more so in the Pacific than the North Atlantic, but still a factor.
it is interesting to know that the US Navy supplied their own paint - as well as using local paint when in the UK, as this adds yet another dimension in the colour variation debate.
I used to live close to RAF Chivenor in Devon and often saw the Hawks displaying freshly painted panels that stood out like a sore thumb when they were first wheeled out onto the apron, but within a few flights the colours had been blended together - partly by being blasted by the air during flight but also by fading in the daylight so I understand why the vessels at sea would suffer the same sort of colour degradation.
The TID tugs would also gain another form of colour degradation from the coal and soot that may not have been cleaned quite so often when in wartime service as they would have been when not in active service ( or later when in private ownership) perhaps.
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Just to really throw a spanner in the works here on couple of points about Grey paint
How on earth do you recreate a grey that might well have been lets say for arguments sake No1 and there is enough to do half the hull and they have in the yard a Grey No2 shade and they mix it up and create a grey that you will never match up.I will Guarantee that the majority of them were painted in this way...thus the variants of the grays....Not all of then would have been painted int he same shipyard and with so so many paint manufacterers out there NO actual 2 would be the same....We get this in the car industry all the time...you might well get a Light Admiralty Grey by say manufacterer X and one by by manufacterer X and I will Guarantee you one thing and this is fact they will be a difference.
There was NO industry standard in those days.
Dont believe me then simply go and buy a tin of Dulux lain white and then a Crown one and you will see a difference and they will both be a base white.
Lets face it everybody it is impossible to get a proper true represantation of a Grey tid....we can only guess what will be closest to it...Personally I would say that Any Grey automotive primer would be a pretty darned near match.
Now I am going to throw another spanner in the works .....what was the true color of the Celotex deck covering on the Deck in front of the Bridge and also at the stern and how do you do this to a true scale apperance,the half round timber foot holds are easy Celotex certaintly not
Dave
Actually the RN was quite organised and had paint companies making paint for them as well as the dockyards who mixed it up and delivered it out to the various bases, ports and ships. They even ran tests using spectrometers at one stage against manufactured paint to see how accurate the colour and reflectance was. They counted the Dockyards as manufacturers too. The RN used pre made enamel in WW1 and onwards. The RAN even had shipside paint made up by manufacturers in the 1920s for delivery to ships. Like the RN, Garden Island, Williamstown and the other yards made up paint for shipment to naval bases and even had a set amount of this paint laid down to be carried by each class of warship. The RN was quite regimented.
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I am just going to echo Stavros. The USN supplied it's ships, during WW 2, with the base paint, white, and the tinting formulas to make the appropriate colors, while at sea. As such, no two batches were exactly alike. This variation was also applied to yards and builders. In fact, many ships were delivered to the Navy and promptly repaint different colors and patterns. Another significant contributor to color/shade and reflectance variations was U/V degridation which happened exceedingly quickly. Much more so in the Pacific than the North Atlantic, but still a factor.
Given their industrial strength, I would have thought that the USN like the RN had paint companies mass producing paint for them.
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Did the RAF also had access to this same pool of paint manufacture for their craft - or did the RN keep their paint supply strictly for their own use?
It has been suggested that the US had access to paint made in the UK when they painted vessels such as the TID tugs that they used - even if they chose to paint them in a little darker shade. Presumably this was taken from the same source or perhaps paint was made available from the US and transported over?
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Possibly to try and bring the colour issue into perspective, from a modern point of view, which will show why although it says Red on the tin what you get is different.
To paint three Chieftain tanks we were issued three tins NATO green and one Matt black. Boss's tank first painted comes our brill, next one less paint so thinned with petrol (thinners were a fantasy beast), comes out a thinner looking colour but still looks ok, last tank paint nearly gone, so thinned with petrol again, very washy thin appearance but still ok. A few days in the field and the tanks with thinned down paint start to have the colours fade easily, while the unthinned still looks ok. A few days in the sun and all three look very different although all painted from same paint, same day. Further if the matt paints were not stirred for about 8 months!!! you ended up with glorious gloss, so really paint is so variable, 100% decisions just do not exist.
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Did the RAF also had access to this same pool of paint manufacture for their craft - or did the RN keep their paint supply strictly for their own use?
It has been suggested that the US had access to paint made in the UK when they painted vessels such as the TID tugs that they used - even if they chose to paint them in a little darker shade. Presumably this was taken from the same source or perhaps paint was made available from the US and transported over?
The RAF was more organised than the RN. The RN’s first Manual of Painting came out circa 1955. The RAF issued theirs in 1928, 1937, 1941, 1947 & 1960. The RAF one even included the size, colour and position of numbers. The RAF after 1928 used BS381 colours with superstructures and decks described as Battleship Grey or Light Battleship Grey.
During WW2, the RN also issued some AFOs covering how RAF launches were to be painted in their colours.
As for the USN, I consulted an oracle, John Snyder, whose reply was that he wasn’t sure if the USN used commercial paint companies to manufacture but they did have their own paint factories at Norfolk and Mare Island.
One thought, the US Army painted it amphibious vehicles in Olive Green. Could they have painted the tugs in that too? Also, did the USN have an dark olive green like the US Army’s colour?
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Possibly to try and bring the colour issue into perspective, from a modern point of view, which will show why although it says Red on the tin what you get is different.
To paint three Chieftain tanks we were issued three tins NATO green and one Matt black. Boss's tank first painted comes our brill, next one less paint so thinned with petrol (thinners were a fantasy beast), comes out a thinner looking colour but still looks ok, last tank paint nearly gone, so thinned with petrol again, very washy thin appearance but still ok. A few days in the field and the tanks with thinned down paint start to have the colours fade easily, while the unthinned still looks ok. A few days in the sun and all three look very different although all painted from same paint, same day. Further if the matt paints were not stirred for about 8 months!!! you ended up with glorious gloss, so really paint is so variable, 100% decisions just do not exist.
Sorry but they weren’t painted from the same paint if you constantly thinned it. If your logic is correct, a pint of beer which is undiluted is the same as one which is 90% water and 10% beer.
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The RAF was more organised than the RN. The RN’s first Manual of Painting came out circa 1955. The RAF issued theirs in 1928, 1937, 1941, 1947 & 1960. The RAF one even included the size, colour and position of numbers. The RAF after 1928 used BS381 colours with superstructures and decks described as Battleship Grey or Light Battleship Grey.
During WW2, the RN also issued some AFOs covering how RAF launches were to be painted in their colours.
As for the USN, I consulted an oracle, John Snyder, whose reply was that he wasn’t sure if the USN used commercial paint companies to manufacture but they did have their own paint factories at Norfolk and Mare Island.
One thought, the US Army painted it amphibious vehicles in Olive Green. Could they have painted the tugs in that too? Also, did the USN have an dark olive green like the US Army’s colour?
Further update, the USN started using commercial paint companies for supply from 1943.
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More from the US oracles, the Army did use USN colours not their land colours. So the tug is most likely USN 5N.
Colourcoats have that in their range. https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/products/us08-5-n-navy-blue
As for USN green/olive, only PT boats shipped to Europe wore that colour.
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Sadly, my reference books are packed away for a house move, but Mudway may be on point. The US Army actually has a LARGER fleet that the US Navy during WW 2. US paints were standardized and one would expect that their use would cross service lines.
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As my coffee awakens my brain this day, I recall that the US Maritime Commission, the agency responsible for the design and building of the US Merchant fleet during WW2, painted many, if not all, it's fleet in US Camo colors. I have an example of a V-4 tugboat that is in MS 22, which used Navy Blue 5-N for the vertical surfaces from boot top to main deck. The deck was Deck Grey ( 20) or Beck Blue (20-B)
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More from the US oracles, the Army did use USN colours not their land colours. So the tug is most likely USN 5N.
Colourcoats have that in their range. https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/products/us08-5-n-navy-blue (https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/products/us08-5-n-navy-blue)
As for USN green/olive, only PT boats shipped to Europe wore that colour.
"US08-5-N-navy blue" is a colour that would "tie in" with the very dark black and white pictures I have seen of the TID tugs in US Army service.
Now that I know the colour that was originally used on the full sized TID tugs when in US Army service so I will use this colour as a base but I will lighten it a little to allow for some "in service" fading - and then darken it in selected areas that were most likely to have been a bit "grubby" from coal and soot etc.
The tank painting experience detailed in this thread by Rob47 is worth considering as it was unlikely to be a unique example of what happens in real life, (and wartime supplies were often disrupted) so some thinning with the use of the "universal thinner" (petrol) is something that could have easily taken place in any of the armed services
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As my coffee awakens my brain this day, I recall that the US Maritime Commission, the agency responsible for the design and building of the US Merchant fleet during WW2, painted many, if not all, it's fleet in US Camo colors. I have an example of a V-4 tugboat that is in MS 22, which used Navy Blue 5-N for the vertical surfaces from boot top to main deck. The deck was Deck Grey ( 20) or Beck Blue (20-B)
Now a Camo painted TID really does appeal !
I am unlikely of find any pictures of an actual TID camouflage scheme but I guess a "typical" scheme could be found and used as a reference?
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Sorry but they weren’t painted from the same paint if you constantly thinned it. If your logic is correct, a pint of beer which is undiluted is the same as one which is 90% water and 10% beer.
seems you have not understood what I was trying to illustrate, that although at the start the paint was the same by various thinning sessions it was almost a different paint for each session, hence the varying shades, also if you scrounged some of same batch it would never match :D
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Paint it in grey or camo.
Its your model.
I would not think a rivet counter
will come along and say you are
wrong. No rivets anyway TID's were
welded :}
Ned
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Paint it in grey or camo.
Its your model.
I would not think a rivet counter
will come along and say you are
wrong. No rivets anyway TID's were
welded :}
Ned
Ha Ha - thanks Ned - that is exactly what I intend to do anyway but I wanted to know what the correct colours that were actually used and this well supported thread has provided me with lots of information and interesting comments.
The US Army painted some of the early open cockpit types in a darker colour and as I have made a model of one of these early variants and wanted something to look a little different from all of the other military TID tugs that I have seen (mostly painted in grey primer) I asked the question.
Now I have the information I wanted about the colours used and the amount of variation that existed I see no reason to have to settle for leaving a TID model in grey primer - so I won't be leaving any of my TID tug models in grey primer!
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How about being differant and doing it a gray colour that you like as on differant days and differant weather it will look different.
Regards Howard.
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A colour photo of some US tugs (no idea which) in WW2.
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How about being differant and doing it a gray colour that you like as on differant days and differant weather it will look different.
Regards Howard.
If I were to just paint it in a colour that I liked then light sea grey would be nice - but it has a greenish tinge to it and apparently this would never have been used due to a shortage of green pigment during the early war years.
I guess this restriction applied to British and US TID tugs ?
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Were all TID tugs painted black below the waterline?
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Zooma,
I dont think that photo is of a Tid look more like a Ryhope kind I may be wrong but that so called Tid looks like its round at the stern.
Regards Howard.
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Zooma,
I dont think that photo is of a Tid look more like a Ryhope kind I may be wrong but that so called Tid looks like its round at the stern.
Regards Howard.
I agree, but it is a very helpful photograph as it shows vessels of the period in typical colours - just what I was hoping to see - some pictures of TIDS would be even better - but colour pictures of wartime TID tugs are very rare.
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Sometime ago I asked an old friend of mine , now touching 90 about the wartime built emergency tugs colour, he said that they were all delivered painted grey like warships. Then the operating authority who actually worked them repainted them to their individual colours. All those delivered for CD tugs in dockyards were repainted black and buff immediately for instance. But there were some government units such as Coastal Shipping and Towing which used these vessels and I have not yet found out there colours and there was several other units like D606 etc which were grey and the Naval Armament Vessels and their tugs were grey all over with red funnel bands during the war. So good luck, paint it how you fancy it.
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Black and buff sounds like an interesting colour scheme - anyone have any pictures of these - or knows what scheme was used?
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Not too sure about the black and buff in wartime. Hannon’s book of 50 years of Naval Tugs has only shades of grey in wartime shots. Post war, the RN had instructions for their tugs to be black hulled with light grey superstructure and this would have included the Admiralty Yard Craft Service which operated tugs and other small craft. I didn’t think the black and buff scheme came back into use until the Port Auxiliary Service was formed from the old Admiralty Yard Craft Service in 1958.
Very hard finding photos of TIDs and the like let alone a photo date. This is a 2 colour one but when. Audrey is in shot, so sometime after 1962. The other shot is Cyclone in the black and grey scheme.
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Fruitless exercise as has been pointed out.
For what it is worth.
Years ago recall reading a book produced by Model and Alied Publications, I think, on painting of models.
Recall it saying, that the original colours even if available and verified could not be used, as the scale of the model, wear and tear, actual colours as in photos could not be replicated, also photos are notoriously unreliable even if in colour due to distance from the subject, lighting, existing conditions and so on.
For instance in black and white photos which are more readily available, 'actual' colours are varying shades of 'grey'
In essence the "colour" was at best an approximation and nothing else, namely, no right colour, no wrong colour.
Makes you wonder about judging models for accuracy????? %% %% %%
If I like a paint scheme that is what I paint, same as if I like a subject that is what I make. O0 O0 O0
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With reference to Admiralty Harbour tugs, CD tugs were always black hull and buff upper works with a blue funnel band with narrow with lines top and bottom off. I have a colour pic of the Devonport tugs lined up for the 1937 coronation revue. The ocean going tug picture is of one of the ocean tug towing group which was semi RFA and had black hulls and grey tops, they eventually were amalgamated with PAS into the RMAS in 1966. I tried to load the pic but it was too big, but here is TID 164 instead.
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Just remembered the old R class tugs were painted red when in the Med including wartime. Presume this colour was for salvage tugs which was their role then.
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With reference to Admiralty Harbour tugs, CD tugs were always black hull and buff upper works with a blue funnel band with narrow with lines top and bottom off. I have a colour pic of the Devonport tugs lined up for the 1937 coronation revue. The ocean going tug picture is of one of the ocean tug towing group which was semi RFA and had black hulls and grey tops, they eventually were amalgamated with PAS into the RMAS in 1966. I tried to load the pic but it was too big, but here is TID 164 instead.
Good colour picture of a TID Admiralty Harbour Tug - very rare and much appreciated.
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Found this picture on the net, it was taken after the war but nicely shows a typical cold move by CD tugs on the Forth.
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Found this picture on the net, it was taken after the war but nicely shows a typical cold move by CD tugs on the Forth.
Another nice colour picture of a TID tug in military service - it may well be just after the war, but I am guessing the black and buff colour scheme was as used in the war and had not been changed ?
Never seen so many "wartime" pictures of TID tugs - thanks to this colour thread !
Thanks everyone - very very pleased with the contributions so far!
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My guess is that pre-war tugs kept their black and buff for three reasons. One not worth repainting small yardcraft. Two, there would have been a fair bit of non admiralty black paint around to use up. Three, too busy to repaint small yard vessels in a new scheme when it is easier to touch up an existing scheme. If you look at the Empires or other war built tugs, they came out in grey. I can’t see a dockyard having time to repaint a tug black and buff when they had more pressing work on hand.
Whitesand Bay was taken by Roger Eastwood when he visited the UK from Australia in 1955. He took his camera everywhere with him including on board the RN ships he visited and used colour slide film. His son has been slowly scanning his father’s old photos. All are classics. I have it in 2600 x 1300 if you want a copy. Enjoy this shot at Chatham.
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With reference to WW2 tid colours, I did come across a pic on the net of a TID flying a white ensign all in grey. Not sure of the number but the RN kept one or two at Sheerness as inspection boats during the war. They also had some others for similar work but they are all listed in the book previously mentioned.
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The Medway Trust & TIDs was mentioned but I didn't go all the way through their website. I just did, some RN tugs in WW2 and, guess, what a US Army tug in France.
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I personally think it's safe to say that the US Army tugs, which were only on loan from the Admiralty were Grey (of some description) but there was some re-painting going on as evidenced by the side of the deck house. Of most interest is the "clutter" on deck US Army jerricans and what appears to be a German life raft leaning up against the funnel.
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Weathering would be fun with coal dust everywhere.
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Weathering would be fun with coal dust everywhere.
I am having a go at that - its a lot more difficult than I thought its would be - but practice makes perfect I guess.!
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Thanks to the excellent contributions on this thread I was encouraged to get on with my build and my early type open cockpit TID is now more or less complete (and weathered) and it had its first sail at the Southport Club on Sunday morning this week.
The model looks really good and the weathering (and rust) looked good enough to attract some favourable comments and with a little ballast adjustment the TID sits well in the water.
Now I know the model is working well enough I can finish off all of the small details such as the rigging, securing the lead ballast in the correct positions and make an accurate looking anchor winch.
I had hoped to find a commercially made 1/24 scale working windlass made from brass that would "look the part", but have drawn a blank, so I will make a "dummy" winch from plastic card and whatever gears I can find of the right sort of size that will look the part but will not function.
Thanks for all the help and advice - much appreciated!
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It would smashing to see some pictures. O0
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It would smashing to see some pictures. O0
I must find out how to get pictures taken on my iPhone onto this site - I guess that I am "digitally challenged " when compared with the younger generations so maybe I should ask my grandchildren how to do it 😱
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Just an update on my first “build from plan” model boat.
It is still in active service and has been sailed most weeks on our club lake and looks really nice on the water.
I have been running the TID on a 6 volt lead acid battery with a Buhler motor and it runs well and at what looks like a nice scale speed but I use this model in all weather conditions and so when it comes in for its first refit I will change it to 12 volts to help it make better headway in heavy weather.
The Tamiya paint has held up much better than expected and only needs some small touch ups where it has had some minor battle damage”.
I have still not made a scale windlass so this will be done during the refit and I think some more rust needs to be added as I hope to improve my weathering technique.
My TID tug has proven to be a very well used and reliable model that has never failed to perform in all weather conditions and still looks good.
I may well add a “tropical sun shade” type of cover as seen in one of the pictures that have been contributed to this very helpful thread as my TID is still the early open cockpit type and I think this would look good and a little “different”.
Many thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread as it proved to be amine of helpful information during my build.
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Hi all just back from my hols in darkest Devon. I cannot answer the first question except repeat an old friend of mine who was about in the last war in the Naval Armament Service. He told me all the war time built tugs were delivered in Naval Grey colour, the home fleet being then darker than the Med lighter grey. On delivery they would be immediately repainted in the colours of the service they were handed over too, not much help but as someone else has already said low priority so any grey to hand does.
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Photos of tugs during the war aren’t easy to find. A couple of Empires are attached. Empire Zona circa 1945 is a light grey. However, Empire Maisie circa 1943 is a dark grey.
My understanding is that TIDs mostly came under the Ministry of War Transport (MoWT) so would most likely have been painted in the Admiralty’s Merchant Ship series of paints. There were 3 of these Merchant Ship Side (MSS), Merchant Ship Deck (MSD) and Light Merchant Ship Side (Light MSS). I have only ever seen examples of MSD & MSS issued (see attached). Light MSS came about in 1943. However, I haven’t seen a formula for it or sample chip issued by the Admiralty.
An easy way if late in the war use a “real” RN light grey i.e. 507C/G45 Foreign Stations Grey which Sovereign Paints put out as Colourcoats NARN22. For the darker grey, you could use 507B/507A/G10 which is Colourcoats NARN21.
[/size]If it helps the attached photo should be a ship in Light MSS. The photos of Maisie and Zona are undated.
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Did this help or confuse?
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If you google TID tugs you will come across a whole host of photos, virtually everyone built with its history. Unfortunately, they are all black and white!!
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Thanks, the problem is also that most photos are either undated or obviously pot war.
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Here is one for you the Plymouth tugs parading for the Coronation review 1937.
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Post war of a TID at Pompy
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I think this is a wartime of empire Ned as RN manned!!
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I believe she became empire Ned when civilian manned but here she is obviously out of commission and under tow.
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Or was it Energetic at Chatham.
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Talking of RN civilian craft colours, all RNAD coasters where painted overall for wartime period only and most probably PSTOn coasters as well as they all came under PSTOn.
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Another old tug Crocodile.
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I know it is not a TID, but this is the RNAD Bedenham during the war at Bedenham and shows the Ammo coasters painted grey, instead of the peacetime black and Buff, but their tugs were always black and Buff. But we must remember some TIDs were not allocated by the Admiralty, but by a wartime civilian dept and those would be painted in the colours of those companies. Also there were other departments (civilian such as the offshore coasting and towing department which had tugs allocated but also took over private owned tugs and coasters with their crews and allocated them around the country as required. |There were a number of these operations only known by their agreement number, since lost to time and memory.
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I don’t think the Admiralty had anything to do with TIDs in the sense we are discussing. Their involvement was providing colours for Merchant Ships as requested and providing samples of these colours to ship owners so they could be painted uniformly. See attached.
My understanding is that TIDs were built for the Ministry of War Transport (MoWT). Presumably the TIDs came under their Ship Management Division which managed the ships owned, requisitioned or seized by the department through various ship owners. Civilian tug owners would not then have been involved with the authority to use their own colour schemes.
]If the Admiralty had any TIDs, they would have come under the Admiralty Yard Craft Service which was the civilian service which operated auxiliary vessels for the Admiralty. This eventually morphed into the now defunct Royal Maritime Auxiliary Service. As far as I can work out, the Yard Service dated back to at least 1906. Little info around for something so historic.
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Hi Mudway, I do not dispute anything you say, just that there were several government departments that operated various craft taken up from various private owners to use as required around the UK and overseas. The only problem is very little is now known about them, their official title etc, most civilian operated.(MOWT). As to TIDs a lot of them were not completed until near the end of the war in Europe and as such some went immediately to foreign ownership/civilian companies. But I have seen a few photo's which you most probably seen of new tids leaving build yards painted grey, though in B/W photos that can be open to question as you say. But what I say is if you build a model (any) paint it how you the maker wants it to, to please your own imagination no one can definitely stipulate any colour as the war as today has proved there may be a spec provided, but actual contract supply is another matter when money and resources are tight.