Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Tugs and Towing => Topic started by: zooma on June 04, 2017, 07:04:36 pm
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I have just finished my 1/24 scale TID tug - my first model built from plan, and my first using plastic card.
The model has turned out quite well for a first attempt and sails well, but I would like to find a realistic sound system to add to it.
As the TID has been a popular model to make I am hoping someone will have made a suitable sound unit for it.
Can anyone recommend a good unit that sounds authentic in a model of an early steam powered TID tug please ?
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TID Tugs didn't have a sound as such, only the occasional mechanical knock, as the steam exhaust was led through a condenser and the water collected in the hotwell tank,so that the boiler water could be re used and not exhausted to the atmosphere and wasted.
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TID's had triple expansion steam engines if that helps the search....
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Sorry Martin but TID s only had two cylinders not three.
Twin compound 220 hp. Some were coal fired while the later ones were oil fired. But still no steam exhaust noises.
TID Tugs are 70 ft long overall and powered by a compound engine by John Dickenson & Sons of Sunderland. Main dimensions are H.P. Bore 12” L.P. Bore 26½” by 18” stroke giving 220 I.H.P. Steam is supplied by a scotch boiler 9’ 6” long x 9’ in diameter at 140 P.S.I. and the units have a bollard pull of 2½ tons.
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Great detailed response cheers, on the to do list.
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I have just finished my 1/24 scale TID tug - my first model built from plan, and my first using plastic card.
The model has turned out quite well for a first attempt and sails well, but I would like to find a realistic sound system to add to it.
As the TID has been a popular model to make I am hoping someone will have made a suitable sound unit for it.
Can anyone recommend a good unit that sounds authentic in a model of an early steam powered TID tug please ?
I was looking at one of these for my new tug. It's similar to those sold by Model Sound only cheaper. You can use a TF card with MP3 files on it to play the sound an it just sits inside the hull. You charge it from the USB on your computer.
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Sorry Martin but TID s only had two cylinders not three.
Twin compound 220 hp. Some were coal fired while the later ones were oil fired. But still no steam exhaust noises.
Sorry, my mistake! The "3rd cylinder" is valve gear! :embarrassed:
(http://www.steamtugbrent.org/uploads/5/5/0/7/5507296/_3705132.jpg?630)
http://www.steamtugbrent.org/history-of-tid-class-tugs.html
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Yes Martin, a piston valve on the HP cyl and a slide valve on the LP matey.
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That's interesting can you explain why?
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A piston valve operates like a piston in a cylinder and handles the high pressure steam better than a slide valve which is basically just a flat metal plate that slides over the ports in the cylinder, the piston valve takes up more space than a slide valve so they were normally only used on the HP cyl.
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Cheers I understood how they worked was just interested as to the thinking behind the design.
Would make a really interesting build project I think.
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I was looking at one of these for my new tug. It's similar to those sold by Model Sound only cheaper. You can use a TF card with MP3 files on it to play the sound an it just sits inside the hull. You charge it from the USB on your computer.
Must be easy to download a silent steam engine
Sound %%
Ned
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Wor Lass ain't a TID steam engine then.
Regards Howard.
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Hello Zooma
I have a 24th scale TID, the can type MP3 players are fine and add some atmosphere. The Alan Bond sound units sold by Technobots are better though. Yes you would not hear much on the real thing but, they sound chuggy and tuggy and seem to work in models.
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Morning Zooma....I tend to agree with Mike........only an expert in TID construction viewing your model.....
'audibly chugging along' would know any different
Adding a suitable steam sound would bring life to the vessel :-))
Good luck....let us know with a video when completed
Derek
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O0
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Hello Zooma
I have a 24th scale TID, the can type MP3 players are fine and add some atmosphere. The Alan Bond sound units sold by Technobots are better though. Yes you would not hear much on the real thing but, they sound chuggy and tuggy and seem to work in models.
Thanks Mike,
I agree that some sort of steam engine sound would be better than no sound at all - and would add to the character of the TID as it chugs its way across the lake - but I will keep the volume down to remain authentic!
I had no idea that steam powered TID tugs were "silent" in operation - not at all what I expected to hear %)
Now I will find the Technobots site and get an Alan Bond unit on order.
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Must be easy to download a silent steam engine
Sound %%
Ned
Sounds like %) I already have an authentic sounding TID tug NED - but I hope to spoil it with a little (non authentic) chugging in the near future!
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Having been towed up the outer Thames estuary by a genuine TID, I can tell you the only noise heard was the screw wash and the rhythmic gentle thump of the boiler feed pump. Steam engines are by their nature quite, when I served in the St Margaret's, I used to go down into the engine room and talk to the engineer alongside the main engine on full power and we spoke normally if we were in the wardroom, the only noise was the low rumble from the main bearings. I think you guys get confused with diesel engines. In fact not long ago I saw a brilliant model of a Gravesend steam tug, I was confused because it had a noise maker which was a good reindetation of the old long stroke Bolinger marine disel engines.
David
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Personally speaking I think that it is a shame to spoil a good model tug by making it sound like a railway locomotive. Geo
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Won't t 'spoil it'!
Sound can always be turned off or down.
I love noisy model boats, even if is way out of proportion to reality, makes 'em come to life! O0
:-))
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Put a steam engine in it!
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Well that's a good idea steam up....but is also catch 22 as model [marine] steam engines are rather quiet also. {-)
Derek
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Exactly ok2
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Ah well each to his own, Bit I still don't like noisy steam tugs.😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇😇
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Technobots no longer have the steam sound unit in stock so I have ordered the combi type (that includes the steam sound) so when it arrives I will fit it and see what steam sound it makes.
If it does not sound "right" then I can change the sound to diesel and fit it into a different model.
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Hi zooma
This gent use to supply Technobots with sound units ,
http://www.forge-electronics.co.uk/index.php/boats
john
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Hi zooma
This gent use to supply Technobots with sound units ,
http://www.forge-electronics.co.uk/index.php/boats (http://www.forge-electronics.co.uk/index.php/boats)
john
Thanks John,
I have just visited this site and he does indeed make for Technobots (and other retailers) but sells nothing directly.
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My Combo Engine Sound Unit Mk2 arrived form Technobots came this morning - great "next day" delivery - so now I can have a play with it.
Although disappointed that I could not just buy the less expensive 'steam only" unit, this one does have some advantages in that I can use it for other things as well in the future (perhaps) and it allows me to test all of the 9 different sound voices too.
I also splashed out an additional fiver and bought the bigger 10W 75mm loudspeaker (as recommended for larger models) at the same time because I have always known that the biggest size speaker should give the best sound quality (assuming similar speaker quality comparisons etc), and the fact that I did not have anything else suitable laying around at the time also influenced my decision.
This is quite a lump but the weight of the speaker did not put me off buying it as I like the idea of having 'working ballast" - although I have already added a fair bit of lead to get the model to "sit" correctly on the waterline and I will make a wooden plate to mount it on and to act as a baffle to help get the best sound - and to secure it safely in the hull.
My thoughts have already drifted towards the ODIN that I am currently working on - maybe there is a suitable sound on this unit that will suit that tug as well................
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To hear what an actual steam engine sounds like (triple expansion in this case) look at this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFhsIOGghtM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFhsIOGghtM)
This is the Steam Tug Kerne and includes several engine room sections.
Jim
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Soooo quiet, just a little mechanical noise, so what does a steam tug sound like? <*<
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Naaa, that's not right! They obviously have not got the right type of sound unit in that Tug!
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Cheers I understood how they worked was just interested as to the thinking behind the design.
Would make a really interesting build project I think.
Since the HP works under "high" pressure steam, the piston valve presents far less drag on the valve gear than a slide valve in the same case.
The LP cylnder gerenerally works on very low pressure or a vaccuum so there is less pressure, and there fore drag, on the large flat sUrface (valve) pressed against a non moving surface, the port openings.. Hence less drag on the engine
John
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Thanks John that makes it clear ;)
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Naaa, that's not right! They obviously have not got the right type of sound unit in that Tug!
:-)) :-)) %) %) %) {-) {-) {-) 👍👍👍👍👍👍
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There is one sound for steam and the older diesel tugs that I have not come across yet, that is engine telegraph bells. Last boat I was on which had them where the MoD dog class tugs, lovely jingle and loud.
David
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Ha not so nice if you are having a doze by the controls and some rotten sod rings the bells of saint Mary's on it, on the Kent I had a chair by the throttle and as head astern lever, and used to put my feet up for a while if we were on a good run down River and Just possibly had a little nod, she has a very loud telegraph down below.😂😂😇😇😇😇😇😇😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳
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Hi Tug mad, yeah I know what you mean. When I was on the St Margaret's, the bells had been taken out so all you heard was the ratchets turning, that was because when we laid overnight on the cable end we had to use the engines gently to stop her yawing heavy on the cable ends which were only lashed with rope strands, as apart from the duty watch in the wheelhouse everyone else were sending up ZZZ's.
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My Technobots steam sound has now been installed and does give an "interesting" steam sound.
I installed it in my model and took it to the Southport Club last Sunday and received a lot of positive comments - along with requests for details of the supplier from those that would also like to buy one!
As I was unable to buy the (out of stock) dedicated steam unit I had to buy the Combo unit that included the steam sound along with 8 other petrol/diesel sounds - all of which we had some fun "testing" pond side.
I have also used one of the diesel sounds in my Robbe ODIN and that really does sound good!
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All of the sounds on the Technobots Combo unit can be adjusted in several ways and one of the adjustments is to specify the number of cylinders the engine has.
Having read all of the comments in this thread I can see that the TID steam engines had two cylinders so I will adjust the unit to see what the two cylinder sound is like, and (hopefully) get a sound as realistic as it can be.............and adjust the volume - so that it is really quiet - as advised ! :-))
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To hear what an actual steam engine sounds like (triple expansion in this case) look at this video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFhsIOGghtM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFhsIOGghtM)
This is the Steam Tug Kerne and includes several engine room sections.
Jim
What a cracking Video, many thanks for posting it.
Len.
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how much was the sound combi unit please.
Regards Howard.
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how much was the sound combi unit please.
Regards Howard.
£30.79 plus vat and postage.
HD speaker £5.70.
Connecting wire £0.36.
Good value for money IMHO.
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https://www.technobotsonline.com/combo-engine-sound-unit-mk2.html (https://www.technobotsonline.com/combo-engine-sound-unit-mk2.html)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsIhu18zT_E
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A fellow club member who took some time listening to my new sound unit felt that he had been "ripped-off" as he had recently bought a well known commercial sound system for his boat that not only cost "four times more" but also sounded like a cheap transistor radio with interference in comparison!
The "engine sound" on his unit was just a "noise" and his description of the sound being more like the sound made by a cheap transistor radio with interference was quite accurate!
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Thanks John,
I have just visited this site and he does indeed make for Technobots (and other retailers) but sells nothing directly.
Ah - the times, they are a changing!
I made my last delivery of sound units to Technobots a few weeks ago and I (as Forge Electronics) will be supplying sound units directly "real soon now" as Microsoft love to say! This marks an amicable agreement with Technobots who are rationalising their product range. Likewise, I decided to re-think my product range and in future will only be offering the Combo type (now the MK3) as it encompasses all three 'single voice' petrol, diesel and steam types - with the benefit that additional petrol/diesel sounds and many more user adjustments are available for a small extra cost.
http://www.forge-electronics.co.uk/index.php/boats/combo-mk3
The (brexit) fall in the pound/dollar has significantly increased the cost of the components and as a small (retirement hobby) cottage industry I now have to pay VAT on the components so the MK3 selling price (£30) is necessarily slightly higher than for the discontinued MK2 petrol/diesel/steam variants (£27) but rather cheaper than the discontinued MK2 combo (£37). First-Class-Signed-For postage in the UK will be £3.00, elsewhere at cost.
As the attached picture shows, I've taken this opportunity to re-package it into a smaller, lower profile, 3D printed case, but it remains functionally identical to the MK2.
I won't be setting up an e-shop, but I've been direct-selling my competition timers for model aircraft quite successfully by issuing PayPal invoices to customers requesting units by email.
As for the rest of the discussion, I'm the first to admit that my 'steam' sound is quite unsuitable for boats other than the Puffer types - originally it was only ever intended for a novelty paddle steamer a pal built in bath-toy hull - you can read about this on my 'workshop' page
http://www.forge-electronics.co.uk/index.php/workshop/sound-unit-history.
I've supplied a few prototype 'real steam' units http://www.forge-electronics.co.uk/index.php/boats/fe101 to some of our SRCMBC club members using a sound clip from a compound expansion engine in place of the Turbo Diesel shown in the photo, but I don't propose to continue with this particular approach.
Regards to all
Alan Bond
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Alan,
Any chance of a sound bite of the diesel engine?
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Out all day tomorrow, but thereafter once the temperature in my workshop drops below the surface temperature of Venus, I'll see about making a sound demo for you.
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Found this video of Kerne's steam engine similar in size to a TID
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG1GEFq5xro
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Found this video of Kerne's steam engine similar in size to a TID
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG1GEFq5xro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG1GEFq5xro)
How about offering this steam sound with your new sound unit Alan?
It would make a more realistic steam sound for those of us with steam tugs that are looking for something a little more "authentic" than the chugging sound you offer at the moment.
As an already happy owner of some of your combo units I would be more than happy to buy a couple more of your new combo units if they can include a more realistic steam sound - and I would be very pleased to have the chance too!
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Found this video of Kerne's steam engine similar in size to a TID
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG1GEFq5xro (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG1GEFq5xro)
Thats a real steam tug, i love it O0
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Great clip zooma - but you should understand that my unit 'synthesizes' engine sounds and doesn't play recordings of the real thing and that this hardware is quite unsuited to making anything but the chuffing type of sound in 'steam' mode. Sorry!
Again, as you've experimented with MK2 Combo units you will have seen that engine authenticity is similarly limited in the synthesized 'petrol' and 'diesel' sounds - but, unlike the 'steam' you clearly found these acceptable for your purposes. Think of it this way - in much the same way that a cartoon of the Prime Minister is recognisable as the Prime Minister, it is not as realistic as a photograph of the Prime Minister. However, one needs to pay considerably more to get 'real' sound, To be thoroughly pedantic I would suggest that even these units, whilst a huge improvement, aren't realistic. They work by looping a fixed audio sample of the engine at a throttle dependent playback speed - with the result that as the speed of the sound changes, so does the pitch - UK readers of a certain age will know what I mean if I dub it the Pinky & Perky effect. Over a narrow rev range some engine sounds are fairly amenable to this technique whereas many others can sound ridiculous. If you check out my website you will see I've been experimenting with such systems so I'm speaking from practical experience rather than expressing an opinion.
And what about the change of timbre and/or volume when an engine is put under load during acceleration? And what about . . . . . . . . where do we stop?
My message is that we need to find a compromise where our pockets and our expectations meet.
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Great clip zooma - but you should understand that my unit 'synthesizes' engine sounds and doesn't play recordings of the real thing and that this hardware is quite unsuited to making anything but the chuffing type of sound in 'steam' mode. Sorry!
Again, as you've experimented with MK2 Combo units you will have seen that engine authenticity is similarly limited in the synthesized 'petrol' and 'diesel' sounds - but, unlike the 'steam' you clearly found these acceptable for your purposes. Think of it this way - in much the same way that a cartoon of the Prime Minister is recognisable as the Prime Minister, it is not as realistic as a photograph of the Prime Minister. However, one needs to pay considerably more to get 'real' sound, To be thoroughly pedantic I would suggest that even these units, whilst a huge improvement, aren't realistic. They work by looping a fixed audio sample of the engine at a throttle dependent playback speed - with the result that as the speed of the sound changes, so does the pitch - UK readers of a certain age will know what I mean if I dub it the Pinky & Perky effect. Over a narrow rev range some engine sounds are fairly amenable to this technique whereas many others can sound ridiculous. If you check out my website you will see I've been experimenting with such systems so I'm speaking from practical experience rather than expressing an opinion.
And what about the change of timbre and/or volume when an engine is put under load during acceleration? And what about . . . . . . . . where do we stop?
My message is that we need to find a compromise where our pockets and our expectations meet.
Hi Alan,
Thanks for taking the time to reply with such detail.
I fully understand your reasoning and appreciate what you have already achieved .
Having said that, it would be superb if you were able to come up with a more convincing "steam" sound that those of us that sail models of steam powered originals (mostly tugs from what I have seen) could use and enjoy.
We are already "spoilt" with your range of adjustable sounds for petrol and diesel engines and just hope that you may be able to do something similar for us with a steam sound in the future.
Many thanks for your efforts to date - much appreciated :-))
Bob.
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Alan,
Any chance of a sound bite of the diesel engine?
Hi Tiny
Only graphics attachments are possible on here it seems, so on my website I've added some sound bytes for you to try.
http://www.forge-electronics.co.uk/index.php/boats/combo-mk3
I've made one example of each of the eight 'petrol'/'diesel' sounds plus the unpopular 'steam' - remember that the tickover and top speed can be set to suit your preferences and that for each voice there are four more cylinder count variants to try. If you are listening on a laptop, tablet or even worse a smartphone, expect to be disappointed as the punchy bass of a decent size speaker is required - unbelievably 'tinny' otherwise.
Best regards
Alan
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heres the one im going to be using for my TID:
https://www.technobotsonline.com/programmable-engine-sound-system-mk2.html
Heres a vid for it.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsIhu18zT_E
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I like harbor models sound bites, very realistic (as long as revs not too fast). Good company to deal with:
http://www.harbormodels.com/sounds.html (http://www.harbormodels.com/sounds.html)
Might be a bit expensive, but you do get control of idle and top end rpm sounds
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O0....their HAR605 and HAR606 sound pretty good :-)) ... [& yes expensive too :-X] .........
Reading their text suggests the 'control of idle and top end rpm sounds'....however a quick e-mail would be advisable
Derek
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After more research & talking to people, i've decided i'm going with the Beier Sound module USM-RC-2, lots of functions & highly customizable.. able to play upto 4 sounds simultaneously.
It's not the cheapest on the market but as the old saying goes, you get what you pay for!
https://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/produkte/usm-rc-2/usm-rc-2.php?sprache=gb (https://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/produkte/usm-rc-2/usm-rc-2.php?sprache=gb)
just a couple of sound clips from one of the presets it comes with for my TID tug..
https://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/service/soundbeispiele/Schiff%20-%20Binnenschiff.mp3 (https://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/service/soundbeispiele/Schiff%20-%20Binnenschiff.mp3)
https://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/service/soundbeispiele/Schiff%20-%20Dampfschiff.mp3 (https://www.beier-electronic.de/modellbau/service/soundbeispiele/Schiff%20-%20Dampfschiff.mp3)
:)
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Good choice.
they are expensive but if you mount them on a board and put plugs on the terminals, it east to swap between models. done that one mine.
Not sure if you know, but you can also wire the lights up to it and control them as well. they are not easy to program at first but soon get the hand off. If you have any issues setting them up. I can help out
Cheers
Tim
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Good choice.
they are expensive but if you mount them on a board and put plugs on the terminals, it east to swap between models. done that one mine.
Not sure if you know, but you can also wire the lights up to it and control them as well. they are not easy to program at first but soon get the hand off. If you have any issues setting them up. I can help out
Cheers
Tim
great stuff thanks :)