Model Boat Mayhem

The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam R&D: => Topic started by: Oliver_Gerrard on July 05, 2017, 05:54:38 pm

Title: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on July 05, 2017, 05:54:38 pm
Hello,

Apologies if this post in is the wrong section!

Thanks for taking the time to read this post, my name is Oliver Gerrard and I am making this post on behalf of my computer illiterate parents.

We have in our possession, a replica of the SL Branksome, the original of which I am sure you know resides on Lake Windermere.

The model was built by both my late grandad and late uncle, the former was a ships artificer in the Royal Navy and the latter was a Project Engineer on the Euro Fighter Typhoon. Both of these men were exceptionally skilled engineers in their respective fields. Sadly those skills were never passed on the rest of the family.

We are seeking a person, persons or society who can help us or be paid by us to complete this model and get her fit to sail as we do not have the acumen to do this ourselves - known issues with the model are the burner arrangement, regulator and the ships electrics plus whatever else you may uncover along the way though it is our understanding that there are not too many hurdles in the way of completion. The boiler has been pressure tested and we have the certificate to prove this, the engine has only run on compressed air though.

We strongly believe that the craftsmanship and hours already put into this model make her of museum quality and we have already approached the Steamboat Museum in Windermere to take her, sadly they have declined our offer and so we are also looking for somewhere we can house her on a loan basis too if anyone can help with that.

I welcome any of your thoughts and ideas and will try my hardest to reply to you all,

Regards

Oliver
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: chas on July 05, 2017, 07:03:53 pm
Wow. That is an exceptionally good piece of work.
 You could approach the Rochdale model engineering society, they are very well respected, and not far from Bolton, and like most modelers really nice people.
http://www.rsmee.com
The above web link is OK, watch out for a similar one that has been hacked.
Chas

Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: tony52 on July 06, 2017, 09:31:27 am
The Bolton Steam Museum could be worth contacting. The museum mainly displays the mill engines from the past, but they do have other small exhibits and a team of skilled steam engineers.

https://www.nmes.org/ (https://www.nmes.org/)



 
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: BFSMP on July 08, 2017, 07:07:46 pm



Hello,
We strongly believe that the craftsmanship and hours already put into this model make her of museum quality and we have already approached the Steamboat Museum in Windermere to take her, sadly they have declined our offer and so we are also looking for somewhere we can house her on a loan basis too if anyone can help with that.
Oliver
unfortunately the Windermere steam boat museum are having their own problems at present and have been for some time. It is also a sad case that most of these small museums don't have the staff to look after the large as life exhibits let alone models, as beautiful as yours is. in fact I think from memory they had a model of Branksome in the museum which was the original model built by a magnificent modeller called Keith Townsend if memory serves me. He then released a limited number of replica numbered kits of the same model. View here.
 
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23271/lot/22/?category=list (https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/23271/lot/22/?category=list)   

and that at 20 - 30 k was only number 07 of his limited number of kits. think what the museum has to insure his original for.

also NOW ADAYS,  in our "sue anyone mentality", small museums are somewhat loathed to take models on "long term loan" because of insurance pay-outs and law suits should someone's beloved  model be damaged or stolen from the museum. I know that Fleetwood museum, which is now run by a rust, is desperately short in funds, and don't take donations with great heart, and if they do, the models which take up space which sadly few give more than glancing looks these days, put them straight into storage in the damp cellars.

To be honest, working or not, it would be better sat on a nice sideboard, not near radiators in your own house just for you to look at with joy and nostalgia.

Jim.


just as an afterthought and having looked at the engines on both your model and the model at Bonhams, are you not sure that this model you own might be one of the limited number of kits Supplied by Keith Townsend..... those kits sold in the 1980's for [ at the time] an astronomical £2500.00 +  VAT
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on July 18, 2017, 07:40:12 pm
Hello!

I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to look at this posting and offering me suggestions of where to go with her completion!

I have made contact with the Bolton Steam Museum and we are in the process of arranging for some of their senior engineers to have a look at the engine and see what needs to be done with it. Sadly we are unable to locate the pressure test certificate for the boiler so we are looking at completing that process again.

The Rochdale model engineers have been contacted but I am still await a reply from them.

In reply to "BFSMP" but also for everyone else:

I have spoken to my father who has managed to find the original plans for this model, he says that the plans say on them:  "Windermere nautical trust limited 1978 production of one model per person, Windermere steamboat museum full size drawings" and it is with these drawing that the boat was made.

We are still desperately seeking a model boat builder who may be able to take a look at her and offer us some advice on completing her, so if you are that person or you know of that person please rely to this posting with your thoughts and ideas.

Thank you very much for your time and effort so far!

More updates to follow...

Oliver
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: steamboatmodel on July 19, 2017, 04:18:29 pm

Oliver you have a jewel there. I remember reading in Model Boats Magazine the descriptions of Keith Townsends builds. I remember that those who bought one of his models received a set of plans too. If you model was not built by Keith it was built too his plans (which were very expensive themselves) by someone who was very skilled. I hope you manage to get is squared away and Bristol fashion. I would love to see a video of it steaming.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: frazer heslop on July 20, 2017, 11:07:51 am
From memory, The model is to large to be a Townsend and Im sure he built a more realistic copy of a Sissons compound engine.Although the engine wasn't a true compound simply a DA twin
The trust at that time did sell drawings to build from and I believe this model has been built from them but beware they made a few errors .
You have a fine model that deserves to be put back into use. Im sorry I cannot help you as Iv to many of my own toys to build
Good luck with youre search it maybe worth trying to contact the likes of Kieth Appleton from his utube channel
cheers
frazer
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: flashtwo on September 19, 2017, 07:45:04 pm

Hi Oliver,


The engine looks like a Stuart D10 the same type as I have installed on my 2-metre  Edwardian Steam Launch and driving a 5inch 4-bladed prop!


Make sure you have a working steam safety valve and is set correctly.


Best regards


Ian Gerrard (St Helens branch)











Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: John R Haynes on October 07, 2017, 01:41:54 pm
All the Windermere plans were drawn by me many years ago when I had access to the boats when they were drydocked for the winter. No one else was permitted to access the boats .These took a few years in cold sheds and near freezing conditions  .I used to supply the Museum with sets of plans for a while but when I left the Lake District Keith came to see me and purchased the remaining plans and my copyright to protect his own business. What happened after that I do not know but on those plans was my copyright when I traded as Maritime Models in the late 70's/early 80's. Now and for decades since I have traded under my own name  www.johnrhaynes.com
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 07, 2017, 02:26:44 pm

Hi John,
If Keith bought the copyrights does that mean you can not sell any copies of them without his permission?
 I looked through your site and the only plans I seen listed were JRH867 Turbinia Plans (http://johnrhaynes.com/catalog/fitting-list/product/JRH867/?).
I did see page after page of some nice fittings, unfortunately not in any scale I model.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: John R Haynes on October 07, 2017, 03:57:03 pm
That's right , however Keith died years ago and I have no idea what happened to the plans or the copyright.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 07, 2017, 05:21:12 pm

That's right , however Keith died years ago and I have no idea what happened to the plans or the copyright.
That is a shame, and probably no way to do other ones of it.
Gerald.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: pendlesteam on October 08, 2017, 12:52:29 pm
Hi. I will gladly check the boiler and burner and fully test and certify it for you if it is to go to a museum - for free.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on January 29, 2019, 07:05:07 pm
Hi. I will gladly check the boiler and burner and fully test and certify it for you if it is to go to a museum - for free.
Almost 18 months since my initial posting and I'm back trying to get this model seaworthy (I'm in the RAF and have been away sometime).

Many thanks to pendlesteam for offering assistance in getting the boiler pressure tested, even more noble of him to offer assistance for free.

One step closer to completion.

I will endeavour to upload some hi resolution colour photos in the coming months for you all to peruse.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on July 27, 2019, 07:16:36 pm
Hello everyone, I have finally got around to uploading some proper pictures of our model of the Branksome. I am still in desperate need of anyone who can off help/advice in getting her completed. I will be uploading in the next couple of days, a complete list of everything that we know needs looking at.

Hope these give you all a better understanding of the craftsmanship and quality of the build!


Oliver


- The green curtain does not belong on the ship - it was added to show what it would look like whilst the correct curtain was on order - we have no idea what happened to it!
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on July 27, 2019, 07:23:50 pm
Here are all the updated pictures:


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1na1Ti6jb1UHYwLsi2oJwGhkv1kfyXrbH

Regards,

Oliver
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: rhavrane on July 27, 2019, 08:32:07 pm
Bonjour Oliver,
Beautiful steam launch indeed ! Just a concern, How do you plan to install a burner as it seems there is no room for it ?
Visual effect of the pictures ? Nigel (Pendlesteam) makes efficient vertical ones, but they need however some space :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nd5KxzVkQo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nd5KxzVkQo)
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on July 27, 2019, 10:26:56 pm
I have to confess, none of our family have any ideas - all we know is that yes, it was intended to have a burner. Any thoughts on what the best way of installing one would be?
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Liverbudgie2 on July 27, 2019, 11:33:27 pm
Branksome is now one of the major exhibits to be seen at the Windermere Jetty museum, she has been restored to a degree but, there no intention of putting her back in the water, at least in the foreseeable future.

All the copyrights to Keith Townsends drawing's now belong to his widow, Gill.

LB

Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: derekwarner on July 28, 2019, 06:53:06 am
Hullo Oliver....the Branksome is certainly an elegant vessel


Just viewing the images I question not only the gas burner issue, but that of condensation.....


Please correct me if I misunderstand,


1. the inlet steam from the boiler approaches the engine in an insulated tube....I have marked this in red arrows
2. the steam then completes a 360 degree loop via a R/C servo controlled steam regulator
3. the steam exiting the regulator passes through the steam oil lubricator the to both steam inlet ports on the engine
4. the exhaust line from the engine is marked in blue arrows..... I have no comment on the exhaust steam line



5. the area of concern is the physical mass of the steam regulator, and the condensing effect it will have on the inlet steam
6. you could consider the mass of the bronze block, and the volume of steam at x degrees C to raise the temperature of the block to that of the engines running temperature
7. an alternate trial will confirm that the regulator is controlling hot water and providing a useless feed for the engine, only requiring exhausting via the engine drain valves

My only advice is to join a locally based model boating Club with a steam membership....they don't bite and will offer sound advice on the complete steam build





Derek
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: derekwarner on July 29, 2019, 12:02:23 am
Back again Oliver ...


Your images suggest the oily exhaust steam exiting the engine is tubed directly to the top side of the boiler or mouth of the funnel to be drawn upwards with the boiler exhaust gas to atmosphere


This is common practice for stationary or land based models, however when used as such in a marine environment will result in tell tale oily rainbow spots and circles on the waterway which is naturally universally termed as pollution



To counter this in marine models, a small de-oiler tank [often called or mis-represented as a condenser] is used in the exhaust steam line between the engine and chimney. This collects the oil leaving clean steam to exit the chimney


Again, members of that 'as suggested' model boat club will be able to recommend a suitable de-oiler


Derek
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Charlie on July 29, 2019, 10:44:32 am
Hi Oliver,


To be honest, Steam Boats are quite a small niche in the hobby. I doubt you will find anyone on here who can actually do the work for you, which is what you appear to need. You could try joining this Facebook Group, which is dedicated to Steam Boat models, where you may have a better chance of getting the assistance you need.


https://www.facebook.com/Modelsteamboats/ (https://www.facebook.com/Modelsteamboats/)


https://www.facebook.com/groups/275916296256040/?source_id=431505110290349 (https://www.facebook.com/groups/275916296256040/?source_id=431505110290349)


Good luck!


Charlie
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Don Scott on January 16, 2021, 12:28:51 am
I am a new member as of today. I came across this thread recently and became intrigued because I acquired the John Haynes plans many years ago whilst on a visit to the museum at Windermere. Having seen the beautiful Keith Townsend model in its display case, I had every intention of building the model but never got around to it.


What puzzles me is that the Haynes plans show a model that is only 25 inches long, therefore Oliver’s grandfather/uncle must have scaled their model up considerably to end up with a beam of 13 inches (shown in the those wonderful photos). That would make it considerably bigger than the Townsend model which I believe is 50 inches long with a beam of 9 inches (approx) which gives it a scale of 1” = 12”. I don’t suppose this information is any further forward but perhaps more food for thought.


One Question for John Haynes...Did Keith Townsend build his model from your plans or did he have his own 50” version ?


Oliver, Sorry I can’t help with the build. I could not equal that quality and know very little about steam engines. The best I did in model boat building was a five feet Tyne tug called ‘Beamish’. I have also built two full size replica sailing boats, both of vintage U.S. design...the 1884 Melonseed and a 1915 Gil Smilh catboat called ‘Lorelei’. The latter was covered by a thread I ran on the Forum of Woodeboat.com.


I would be pleased to hear any more thoughts and information that might jog me into some action during these troubled time. Thank you for reading my post.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: John R Haynes on January 16, 2021, 10:28:07 am
since I am the only person to be permitted  to survey all these boats in and out of the water over a good few years  you can rest assured that my plans are accurate .
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Don Scott on January 16, 2021, 12:23:42 pm
John,


That is not a very kind welcome to someone who has just registered on this Forum.



I made no suggestion that your plans were inaccurate. Why would I do that? It did not even occur to me that anything might be wrong with them. All I did was to ask a few questions to clear my mind about the three models that were being discussed in the thread...


1. The Keith Townsend model. As far as I know, that one is at a scale of 1” = 12” so the model must be about L50” W9”. I asked
    you if he had built his from your plans
2. The model sold at auction by Bonhams described as 007 and seemingly the same dimensions as the Keith Townsend model.
    I can only assume that this model was built from one of the kit of parts produced by Mr. Townsend.
3. The model which is subject to this thread belonging to Oliver. It is suggested by him that this model was built using your plans.             
    By his description, they sound like those I purchased at the Windermere Museum many years ago. If you look at the group of
    detailed photos posted by Oliver, you will see one with a steel tape measure across the mid beam section showing 13”. That
    makes it obvious that this model is much larger than the original Townsend model.


In all three cases it would seem that, if the builders were using your plans (scale 1/2” = 12”) they must have scaled them up. That is all I was saying. If there is anything in my post, above, that suggests otherwise or any inaccuracies in your drawings then I apologise because was not my intention.


Having fallen on this thread by accident the other day, I went and searched for you plans, still rolled up in their card tube and in pristine condition and the seed was once planted in my mind to have a go. I did not think for one second that I might upset the man who made the project possible.
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on January 16, 2021, 12:35:37 pm
Good Morning Don Scott & John Haynes.

I have just spoken to my father who informs me that:

The plans came from Harold Underhill's, he apparently bought the rights to the model boat plans, scaled them down and sold them to my grandfather.

Mr Haynes, does this sound correct to you?


Regards,


Oliver
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: spearfish99 on January 16, 2021, 01:10:20 pm
In a recent tidy up of the 3rd bedroom pending redecoration  , I came across the set of plans that I bought many moons ago from the Museum.  These are for the Esperance steam yacht that for many years sat afloat along side the original Museum building.  On one visit to the museum, while looking at her from the jetty, one of the staff came along and opened her up for us and gave us a guided tour.


 I understand that the years haven't been kind to her and she isn't on display at the Jetty.    While I haven't had a chance to visit the new Jetty museum ( except for the steamer we were on last time calling there) , I have been in touch with Elaine Middleton who works "front of house" there.  Her father produced and sold the 575 yacht that many of us may remember. I sent her a kit for one of these following an appeal in "Model Boats" magazine as she wanted one as a momento of her father, to be sailed in the model boat pool in the forecourt of the museum.


While discussing the new Jetty museum with her, I mentioned that when our steamer called there, that their Osprey steamlaunch was in steam at the pier and that some years ago, my wife and I had subscribed to a fund when they were retubing the boiler. As a result we ended up with our names on a brass plaque that was installed on the wall of the old museum and an invite to a trip on one of the steam launches, which we took on our next visit. It was an memorable trip around the lake on a lovely sunny afternoon and included tea and cakes, with the tea made with boiling water from the "Windermere kettle" fitted to the launch. Be interesting to see when we get a chance to return whether the plaque found its way back into the new museum, though I doubt it!


Esperance - 1869 - Lakeland Arts (https://lakelandarts.org.uk/items/esperance-1869/)



 
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: John R Haynes on January 16, 2021, 03:37:28 pm
I've no idea if Underhill bought the copyright from Jill Townsend . Seems unlikely to me  but what do I know.  I still retain all my sketches  with dims for these vessels  that I took on site to take home and put them on my drawing board. All this was 40 odd years ago,
When copying on a plan printer  errors do occur . Its only recently when digital copying  can an accurate plan be produced
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Liverbudgie2 on January 16, 2021, 08:17:36 pm
To clarify matters a little.

Jill Townsend lives with me at present and we have, in my loft, all the remaining drawings, formers etc Keith used for building the models of the steam and motor lunches at the museum; she also retains the copyright.
The model of “Branksome” which was exhibited at the Model Engineering exhibition and won the gold medal, which later was on display at the museum, was built to a larger scale of 1/10 and powered by a Stuart Double 10 engine. The later models were built to a scale of 1/12, the engines in those where exact replicas as was possible of the actual engine in the boat. See my article in Model Boats.
As for which drawings Keith used to build the first model, we are unable to give a definitive answer on this because Jill is unable to remember however, it is possible though that he used John Haynes drawings to begin with and then scaled them up. He did though spend a lot of time measuring her up to ensure all was as correct as possible for that time. This was all done under the patronage of George Pattinson. Keith then went on to maintain the steam launches as well as drive them in the summer months. (Jill has now told me that he never used the drawing in the blue tubes)

All the models which were on display at the museum are owned by the Pattinson family and cannot be viewed.

Unfortunately, before he died Keith destroyed the former and associated drawings together information to prevent copying.
                                     
Apparently, Keith only purchased them to protect his own business from copying, though many people did of course use them to build their own one-off projects.
The models of Branksome or any other of his models were never sold as kit’s, they were supplied as complete working models, many of which now reside in private homes and museums around the World.

Harold Underhill never bought the rights to these drawings and as far as am aware never supplied copies either, if so, they were illegal copies; in any case I’m sure Harold Underhill had died my years before drawings of these vessels had become available.
The current staff at the museum now maintain and restore the boats, the last time I was there in the summer of 2019, the Esperance was under restoration and from what I could see they were making a fine job of it. I have also given my 575 to Elaine for re-building. Quite what the situation is now I have no idea, however, should we have a fair wind it might, hopefully be possible to have a regatta of some sort later in the summer.
In conclusion, we are willing to sell all the information drawings, formers etc, that we have, including all rights, to a suitable buyer the price of course, would be substantial.
Interested parties should PM me for further details.


LB
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Seacommander on January 17, 2021, 04:24:07 pm
As an aside,
I was a young lad, just leaving school and staring out, when Keith was building his fine models
His models and the museum all that time ago, where one of the biggest inspirations in my life time, and still are.
Great museum, wonderful boats and great part of the world. I took my young wife there 35 years ago and we still talk about it,
We also had tea and refreshments steaming on the lake, I think we went on the Swallow, and I'm sure it was Keith who was in command
One of our great memories, to all those involved , if you read this thanks for great time and memories, that's Englishness. You did a grand job !
I wish the new museum all the best and a most successful future, I should visit as soon as I can, I'll bring a steamer to sail as well
Cheers all
Mark   
Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Billr on May 10, 2021, 06:33:02 am
An unfinished boat is a sad thing and they made a good job of the woodwork so far it would be a shame not to complete it.
I saw Branksome in 1977 and bought plans from the museum and returned to NZ determined to build the model using the Stuart Turner Double 10 I had already built.
I scaled the plans up to be 1:7,  ie 2 metres long to best suit the engine size and to make the engineering easier.
I started in 1980 and soon had the hull in the water but I could not make the boiler and ancillary parts (all concealed of course) to operate well.
Life, family, career and kids all combined to put a hold on the project up to 2004 when I started another boiler but again it was plain it is very difficult to fit effective working engineering into the restrictive spaces available.   I did not want any burners etc visible and really wanted a 'real' back-head.

Then in 2012 I decided to make it electrically driven but leaving the steam engine in place and using my boiler fittings to make a dummy back-head for the side-fired boiler. (A battery replaced the boiler)
In 1977 I had taken a lot of photos of the real boat and used these to flesh out[/size] [/size]a lot of detail in addition to the basic layout shown on the plans. Consequently I have tried to reproduce the original boat as best i can.   I even made a replica prop and rudder. However even though it is a good copy of the images I found, the model goes a better in reverse than in forward and I wonder if the real boat did that?  Probably my copy is not that good!This is essentially an open boat so must have crew and passengers and I have 5 characters aboard. The 'Captain' at the helm, the 'man' at the throttle and Mrs Edna Howarth standing  in the bow wearing the widow's weeds she wore in a photo. Her friend is organising the morning tea on the forward dropleaf table. The fifth character is a dog.  Static characters at this scale look strange so Edna can turn, raise her parasol and wave while the dog wriggles.  In addition, by the magic of Bluetooth, she can talk to the spectators so I can engage kids and adults alike as well as greet tourists (when we had them) in 50 different languages - and the dog barks!   At present she also warns people to be careful to scan the Covid codes to avoid another lockdown!

The boat was finally launched late in 2014 and has been sailed most weekends since then.[/font]
At the lakeside I tell everyone the origin of the boat and what makes her special and I am surprised how many people have seen her in their travels.

The point of this long story is that a model like yours will be worth the effort if you stay faithful to the real boat and to operate as you intend to use her.  Making her into a working steamer is not easy and will demand skill to sail her reliably so what you do with the boat should take into account the intentions of the owner.  I am  not sorry I made my model electrically driven as it means I spend more time on the water showing her beautiful lines and timber and sharing her story and the story of times now gone and I can enjoy this beautiful boat all the more.  She is a boat that amply rewards the extra effort to present all the details of the real boat.Best wishes and good luckBill





Title: Re: SL Branksome - HELP!
Post by: Oliver_Gerrard on May 30, 2021, 09:10:52 pm

Good evening everyone,

This will most probably be my final update ever on my adventures with the Branksome, it has been a long time coming but I would like to share the great news with you that she is proudly on display in the Steam Boat Museum, Windermere.

She can be found alongside the Steam Launch Bat & Motor Vessel Canfly both of which were built by the legendary Keith Townsend. As a family, we are immensely proud to donate our model to the museum and the fact that she is now on display alongside Keith's work is a testament to the calibre of my grandfathers craftsmanship.

I have enjoyed reading all your comments on my original post and learning so much more about this wonderful ship.

Thank you to each and every one of you.

Good night.