Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Navy - Military - Battleships: => Topic started by: dlancast on October 07, 2017, 10:20:38 pm
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Ok Folks, here begins a brief build of Panart's kit Combat Place. This is a static display of an 18th century English ship of the Line combat station. A slice if you will of what such a combat station would have looked like with all accessaries, showing placement of two cannon below decks. Constructed mostly of wood, with brass and pewter castings. I am doing this as a gift for a dear friend who is a shut-in suffering from Parkinsons disease. He has a love for the old fighting ships of the line and I know he will find this model to be most fascinating to observe. The model will be approx. 10" square, by 5" high. Good size to see detail. Hope you enjoy the build as much as I know I will. Regards, Dennis
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I can say that we are all shipwrights. This model really makes me feel like one. The frame construction is very much like the real thing. Laser cut parts are very close fitting and surpizingly complex. Joints are held together not only with glue, but wood tenons. Dennis
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Looks like a very nice model, and a great subject. The only thing I can see that could be added is the rolled up hammocks and mattresses between the nets, at main deck level.
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I don't know about the matteress, but the roll-up hammocks will be there in between the netting. This is going to be fun as it evolves. Dennis
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I always love working with ships grating. The milling work is very precise. Their will be two lower grate sections and two upper eventually. Dennis
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More detail work. The decks are planked with 2x8mm limewood, with 0,5x2mm walnut strips laid in between planks to simulate caulking. I then filed plank butt joints with a triangle rasp and drilled 1mm holes on either side of butt, then I cut the tips of tooth picks off and plugged the holes, nipped off the excess and filed smooth. I then went on the back side and placed a dab of fast glue to secure the plugs. When the planking is varnished, those plugs should show nicely. Dennis
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Those cut aways are lovely. One of the compaines does a complete section through a man 'o war.
The posts at the back of the piece might have had their edges chamferred, which would add a little detail to an already packed piece.
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Very nice and a bit different to the usual builds. I'll follow along and enjoy.
Colin
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The posts at the back will be removed after interior turned, fluted posts are added.... lots more to do. Dennis
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BTW, how much did this cost?
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Kit is $209.00, not including shipping. Worth every penny in my books. I'm lovin this little build and I just might make it by Christmas. Dennis
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Yep, it certainly looks to be worth every penny, or cent in this case.
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Upon reviewing the plans some more, it appears that just about every detail is included in this model....every bucket, hamock, raming tool, cleaning tool... all will be constructed for the most part. Just tons of detail that is hard to grasp at first. I'd say some good research was done for this. I began to compare this with my English Frigate model and framing and layout looks like a match. Of course, I don't show but just the cannon with rigging on my Frigate model... but this sure looks like one took a big slice out of the ship to display what it might have looked like below decks at the fighting station. Oh well, I'm still plugging holes. I haven't found any cents or gold coins yet..... :} D.
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Deck planking on lower deck completed. Upper main deck planking started as is outer hull planking. Very fun kit to build.
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It's taking shape nicely Dennis. I love those knees holding the deck beams together :-))
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Yes, those knees are a nice touch. I did some research, looking for info on colors used. I'm going for the HMS Victory, second gun deck level. What I'm finding is that the gun carraiges were not painted red, as in the kit, they were yellow, the overhead ceiling was white, the vertical supports were black. Deck natural, inner ceiling looks like it might be yellow. The hull outside was black all the way to the cap rail with yellow banding along the gun ports, with red inside each port opening and inside hatch. Inner capstan supports where black, not red. So, I think I'm going to go with that. The kit is probably more like a frigate and not the Victory, but my friend favors the Victory, so I'll go with those colors. I'm welcome to any suggestions you folks might have on the coloring. Oh, I'm going to try to scratch build a couple of old ships laterns, not included in the kit, but did find a nice close to scale model lantern at a good price, made out of brass. Lets see what I can do by hand for the fun of it first. Cheers.... Dennis
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Just busy with the details, varnish, paint. She is coming along. Dennis
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Hatch rigging was robust. Dennis
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Cannon number one is finished, minus the rigging, thats next. Very pleased with the amount of detail from kit and metal work. Lots of fun to put together. Dennis
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Looking very good the detail is great :-))
Colin
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I was almost tempted to bore that cannon out and let one off! ;) .... tks sir, she is fun to build. Dennis
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Could be fun :-))
Colin
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Cannon number one is fully rigged and installed. Moving on to number two. Dennis
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Both cannons are rigged and installed. All cannon balls and racks installed. Dennis
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Looking really excellent Dennis. :-))
Love the detail. It goes to show just how complex all the wooden sections had to be shaped for their purpose. Shot garlands are a nice touch.
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Thank you Bob.... I'm weak on my terminology and my plans aren't helping with that. As I get into all of the support pieces, I'd appreciate some terminology help as to what they really are called. I'm building what I think is a "fuse" bucket at present. Its barrel shaped with holes drilled in the top lid and then short sections of rope coming out the top.... all to be painted red. There will be a series of hand tools that I have no clue... coming later. But it all makes for a nice kit package. Dennis
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Well, I did a bit of research on this "fuse container"... for what better label. I would like to know the correct terminology for this container. As I understand the way it went: after cleaning the barrel of the cannon, a fabric bag of gunpowder was gently rammed down the barrel to the end. There is an opening at the top of the barrel. A sharp object was inserted down that hole to open the bag. A slow burning fuse was then inserted in the hole to come in contact (non burning end) with the gun powder. The red bucket contains the fuses... right? I understand the fuse burned very, very slowly and may have been lit in the bucket prior to engaugement with the enemy. Would like to hear the true story on this. Thanks, Dennis
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These 'fuses' were known as slow matches and in use were held in the end a Linstock, a wooden rod. The tub holds spares in case one went out, they were treated cord which slowly smouldered instead of burning. The tub contains sand so if one of them falls into it there is nothing to burn.
Once the cannon is loaded a steel wire is used to pierce the cartridge (normally flannel as it burns cleanly.) A goose quill filled with fine gunpowder was placed in the hole into the powder inside, the gun captain blew on the slow match to get it glowing brightly then applied this to the end of the quill. This ignited the powder which burned down the quill and ignited the powder in the gun. The match was held in the linstock to allow the gun captain to light the fuse from the side to stay clear of the considerable recoil when the cannon fired.
The slow matches were replaced by a flintlock mechanism but a match tub and linstocks was still kept handy in case the flintlock failed in action.
Jim
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An excellent description Jim..
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So you would say the proper term is "Match Tub" for holding the spare "matches". I need to post list of the tools I will be building for this kit and maybe a few more. Here they are: 1. Sponge, 2. Wormer, 3. Ladle, 4. Rammer, 5. Scraper, 6. Handspike, 6. Cat or Searcher, 7. Gunner's Pick, 8. Bore Scraper-And-Spoon for mortar, 9. Gun Powder Container. 10, 11. Match Tub, 12. Tompion to close the muzzle. I found this list on the internet and closely matches what I have in the kit to build. As always, I'm open to suggestions and corrections. Thanks gentlemen. Dennis ;)
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Normal tools would be 1,2,3 and 4 each mounted on the end of a pole long enough to reach the end of the cannon bore. The worm was to remove any unburnt flannel from the cartridge. The sponge was to wet down the bore to make sure that no stray flames were present before adding the next powder charge. The ladle carried the powder charge down to the end of the bore. The rammer made sure that the powder charge, the ball and oakum packing was pushed fully into the barrel. An extra was the flexible sponge and rammer, a length of heavy cable with a sponge at one end and rammer at the other. This was to allow the crew to work inside the ships hull. The longer rods needed their user to lean out of the gun port.
The handspike no 5 was a long lever that allowed the gun carriage to be moved sideways or lift the rear of the barrel to allow the quoin to be moved in or out changing the angle of the barrel. Normally 2 per gun.
5,6,7 and 8 look more like tools for the servicing of the cannon not for firing so wouldn't be present on the gun deck, being kept in the gunners store.
The powder container was a closed container used by the powder monkey to carry the filled cartridges from the magazine to the cannon. A limited number of cartridges was kept near the cannon for safety.
There would only be one or two match tubs per deck as each would serve several guns. The cannon would normally have their muzzles closed with the tompion (or sometimes called a Tampon), a wooden plug to keep water out. These would only be removed before action. Most cannon were not kept loaded ready for use but loaded once ready for action. Any kept loaded had to have the ball and powder removed every few days or else the powder became damp and useless..
Jim
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Tks Jim, that info was most helpful. I will mention later how the kit requires placement of tools and we can go over that for accuracy... sounds like you know your stuff sir. Tampon huh... interesting. I wasn't going to say that, but certainly do understand how certain terminologies have transferred to other meanings in a very unique way.
Dennis ;)
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Table has been installed. Pinned to pivot on one end and hung to rope from overhead beam on the other. Barrell being "staved". Dennis
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This is looking a beautifully detailed model, appearing very much like the upper gun deck of HMS Victory.
Hopefully these videos help describe the various equipment on board, and how the ship was worked in action.
Official tour of HMS Victory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yWH_CxlMaQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yWH_CxlMaQ)
"Battle Stations" describing how the ship was fought.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2JqDFaH6vo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2JqDFaH6vo)
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Thank you Bob, enjoyed the video links. They had a hard life aboard those ships of the line. Yes, I'm trying to model this "fighting station" towards how the Victory would have looked. The friend I am building this model for as a gift wanted me to build him a model of the Victory. A rather daunting task and a project that could take a few years. I came across this cross section kit and decided that this would provide an unusual way of seeing the insides of a fighting ship, such as the Victory. I think he is going to be pleased as I am. Its not perfect, but close in some of the details. I'm in to the various tools and items one would find below decks around cannon. I still have alot to do yet. and will certainly share the details as we go along. I think I have enough time to finish her before Christmas. Thanks to all for the great inputs so far and I'm looking forward to more. :-)) Dennis
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A pity you are so far from Boston, where the USS Constitution is moored. Warship of similar era.
I always look forward to your posts.
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The only ship we have around here is the "Lady Washington"... small, but a very nice replica. Dennis
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Tompion (to close cannon) and sponge bucket made and installed. Dennis
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I can't help wondering where the tompion would have been stowed during battle stations.
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They may have been stowed down in the hold with the tables, benches and other furniture. Or just in a box out of the way on deck. It's not as if they would have been difficult to replace if lost.
One problem with this kit is it doesn't show an actual arrangement. If the cannon is run out of an open gunport ready for action then the table and benches would not be present. If you want to show the table and benches then the gunports should be closed and the cannon muzzles lashed tightly to the hull side to stop them moving.
Jim
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Yes, Jim... I agree comopletely. The kit shows a haphazard layout for the tools, some just laying on the deck, others, properly stored overhead in racks. Lack of research? Probably, or just get the components out to be visually seen. At least I will provide a "key" along with my gift so that my friend can at least idenify the different tools, etc. What I liked about this kit is the visual impact... Wow... look at all the stuff they used in and out of battle. Wait till I start hanging hammocs Thanks for your keen observation in any case. Dennis
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The overhead storage is for when the ship is no longer at action stations. When in action the tools will normally be held by the appropriate member of the gun crew. As you have no crew then you are forced to leave them on deck. However rather than a haphazard position try to position them in some order as they would be used. You can set up one gun at action stations and the other run in with port lid closed to show the crews living conditions.
Jim
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You are creating a Diorama and as Jim observed, the lack of figures will make for more consideration of layout and 'story telling'. The Tompion would be best put somewhere where a crewman or worse an officer %% would not trip over it, but will also be in the diorama. What scale is the model? There may be suitable figures if the model is in a standard scale (1:32nd, 1:48th etc).
All in all a lovely piece and one that will have so much detail for your friend to find. I hope he is pleased with it as you put a lot of effort in your work, and to hear that someone would query that becuase it isn't a full ship model would be sad.
As regards the crew's life aboard, it was hard and in action could be dangerous, but the Navy fed their men well if monotonously, and as Nelson is supposed to have said regarding food: 'What the eyes cannot see-the heart shan't grieve over'. Meat and fish was often salted and dried for the winter months when times were less plentiful, and I doubt that the sailor's families at home would have had half what they got as a daily ration, certainly not as much meat!
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Tks gentlemen, some good comments and suggestions. Actually, one of the cannon is run back some (probably not all the way) and I could insert the tompion into that one at least. As I begin to create the appropriate tools, I will be asking some suggestions and provide pictures so collectively, maybe we can come up with some good solutions other than what the kit is telling me to do. Best regards, Dennis
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Here are some drawings that will give an idea of tool placement that the kit is showing. The one drawing show various tools is from the internet. The model scale is 1:23. I like the idea of maybe adding figures for interest, but fear too much congestion if I do. Its cluttered enough as it is. I think that having a list or "key" will help in identification of each tool and maybe do a short ID on the tools use. Something for you guys to think about, so go to work! And thankyou! Dennis ;)
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Ha - lol, a bit cramped, just how cramped would be evident if the crew were there, and in the actual day was very cramped, you could cast in clear resin a figure holding a tool so as not to obscure the cannon - how effective is debatable, a photograph photo-shopped with text labels on each tool next to the diorama would help, especially when completed 1) does not mean you have to label items on the kit 2) several photos means the same picture can show different tools not shown on the first photo, also photos at different angles depict the tools when they get obscured.
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Good ideas especially if your friend wants to display it for others to see. Clear resin figures could be cast, but the moulding and casting would be quite costly especially for a one off model. And that is after sourcing or sculpting the figures %%
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Just some random thoughts.
It is a difficult one, but as suggested before, a lot of the gear would be stowed for action stations. I believe that the hammocks would be stowed up on the main deck, a bit like sandbags, to stop splinter and other debris flying across the deck.
Possibly the best, and most expensive, option would be to buy a second kit. Then do two scenes, one normal everyday meal time, and one battle stations.
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Interesting ideas for sure. As it is, the kit does make provision for rolled up hammocks to be inserted between the webbing attached to the deck rail stanchions to act as a small amount of shrapnel protection. One hammock will be strung "open" and one "close" hung from the overhead of the gundeck. As for another kit... I have been giving this idea alot of thought for some time now. The way the kit is designed, two kits could be joined back to back to make a full width deck, four to six kits join would yield a very large diarama and if I continued the idea further, I could add masts, more decks, rig her and have one very huge (maybe 8ft long) model! :o ... back to reality, two kits would be awesome and I'd like to do it. Since this is a gift, I could purchase two more and really do it up nice with these suggestions. Model would be 20" long, 10" wide and 5" high. Not bad at all. Dennis
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Gentlemen, I have another question for you. I am intreged about the idea of after I finish and release this model, that I purchase two more of the same with the idea of joining them back to back so to speak so that I can get a full deck width section plus four cannon. The question I have is that I have no way of knowing if the "inside" edge is truly at the centerline of the ship. The kit manuafacturer makes no mention that this model is a scale model of the HMS Victory. Only, that it represents a typcial cannon deck of a standard English ship of the line. If I just ignored the question of centerline and went ahead, built two models and jointed them. I am pretty certain that I would have one very interesting diorama with which I could do some interesting things that have already been mentioned. Model size would not be that huge: 20"x10"x5". I guess I have to answer the question, do I really want to invest over $400 US to have something that is unique just to me? I know for certain that I would sure love to give it a try and have the funds for it. I know there are many kits out there of entire ship hull slices, including one mast and all yards and rigging. There is even a bow section that again shows all deck level. But nothing this large or complete with detail. Please feel free to comment if you wish and help me decide. Best regards, Dennis
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I am pretty sure that you have more than a half deck. The hatches would have been along the centre line of the ship. You model looks like a section of the middle gun deck. If you wanted to expand on the model, you could plank the upper deck, and put cannon on there, but that would take a bit of research. The lower gun deck and orlop deck were much wider and housed the bigger guns.
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Looking back over your pictures I believe that Tigertiger is correct. The double row of black vertical columns with grating hatches above are equispaced about the centreline of the ship. ie: Your model shows more than half the width of the ship. The real centreline would bisect the grating hatches and upper planked area.
I am really enjoying this build, so beautifully detailed. On HMS Victory the long tools would normally be stowed above, but held by members of the gun crew in action. Difficult to show both states with the table and seats deployed in meal time positions. About the closest maybe to show one gun run out, and the other secured (as you have it) but with that gun port closed.
You have two pairs of hammocks. Suggest the ones from over the "in action" gun should be stowed in the hammock nets topsides, as they would be in action.
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Tiger and Bob, thank you so much for your suggestions. It would be possible to build the first kit as is for framing and then cut the frames on the second kit back on width to match the outside edge of the first kit... if that makes any sense from this old brain. I certainly agree that those grates would be on center line. Yes, I can stow those hammocks on the action cannon... all kinds of options for the new half for stowing the table, rolling a cannon back in , closing that hatch, stowing tools, etc. I'm working on a railing that goes on top, again on center-line and I've checked all the pictures I can find on-line and can't seem to find a match. As soon as I get it worked up, I'll post a picture and perhaps get it identified as to accuracy, placement, etc. Indeed, this is a fun project and I highly recommend for those inclined to build one. (no, I'm not a sales rep. :} ) cheers, Dennis
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Well folks, sometimes we need to get knocked down to our knees for a moment of humbleness in order to improve, in anything. I happened onto this web site: http://www.ianlawrencemodels.com/gundeckwip.html and I have to say that this master knows his stuff and if you can believe, with mirrors, has achieved what I have been thinking of doing at half the cost and effort. You really need to step through his build log to get the full effect of what he has done with this kit. And, indeed, I will take some of his ideas and methods, though probably not use the mirrors, as I'm still convinced that I would like to build the full width and do it that way. The rest is amazing as you will see. I found it interesting that he did not include the railing I am working on now, nor did he add the, what I will call, catheads. Its all been done before folks.. always.. nothing new under the sun and always, always something new to learn. Regards, Dennis :((
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Dennis......
The enamelled and buffed cannon barrels surface finish appears very unique/authentic/lifelike %)......
It may be a dust collector, however the use of oiled/waxed wooden surfaces also adds the perception of crispness and reality too......something that cannot be achieved with any semi gloss or matt polyurethanes no matter how thinned
Derek
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Yes, Derek, he did a beautiful job on that cannon. I've just about finished up the railing, just have to add some varnish and glue her into place. I think it might be cool to add a few coiled lines to those belaying pins for effect. Hammocks next. Dennis
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The guns may not be 'in action' just training, so having one operating and one closed up may be normal.
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Unfortunately training involved the full gun deck. The log entries were always exercised the guns, always plural. Part of the training was clearing away all unnecessary objects into the hold to give a clear gundeck. The object was to have all of the guns on one side of the hull ready at the same time for a full broadside. (only manageable for a few broadsides as the loading speed of crews varied especially as they tired.) There was only enough crew to fully man either the port or starboard guns although both sides may Have been loaded ready for firing. The guns on the unused side would not be run out and the port lids may be closed.The only time one gun crew would have been exercised would be if they were doing a poor job but the whole gun deck would be cleared for action.
Jim
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There is a good reason to have both sides built. I could show one side "loaded and ready" with tools at the ready (unless I could show crew) and the other side with cannons rolled back and tools stowed, table down. Mom now wants a new sink, so I might not be able to do this for a while :(( Dennis
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Having the gratings as whole pieces will make your build even easier because you can just cut this part of the deck off. Maybe you coud leave one grating out and replace it with a mast or capstan! Ooh the possibilities %%
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Yes, the separation would be just at the side of those gratings for the addition of the "other side". Oh boy, don't think I haven't thought of those possibilities, stepping a mast, showing it up to the main truck, installing chainplatess bewteen those two cannon ports, installing main standing rigging with ratlines, whip and served proper ship board fashion. I've built plenty of old ships of the line and have a copy of Lee's Masting and Rigging. It would add height to the model and I could add the main lower yard. Yikes... might as well just build the entire ship!! O0 Dennis
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First hammock installed, folded. Rail is in with added rope on belaying pins. Shot inside show aft cannon block and tackle, disconnected when not in use. Dennis
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Well, 8 days in the hospital set me back a bit, but now home and back to the build. Upper railing is in. Had to stich on the webbing, then make a number of hammocks, folded them and inserted between the rails, as they used the hammocks as shrapnel protection to a degree. On to the "tools", etc. Dennis
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That is looking neat Dennis. Sorry to hear that you have been in Hospital. I recall you saying that you had to go in for a check or similar, but not for that long :(( I hope you are recovering well, the modelling should be theraputic.
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Feeling better, but slow recovery. Good thing is I can still model. Takes my mind off of things. Ok, tools are made. This kit did not provide all the tools that were used, but this will be enough. More would just make it cluttered I think. Four for each cannon will be mounted overhead in a rack, some will be on deck. Dennis
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Enough to explain the method of serving cannon Dennis.
Looking good.
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Gentlemen, the Combat Station model is completed. I hope to get a case for it tomorrow. Its been a fun build. Haven't made my mind up if I want to get two more kits and make a full width model. If I do, there are alot of changes I would like to make over what the kit provides. Too many models, too little time. Back to the Lexington.
Dennis
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Dennis,
Lovely piece of work, you must be really pleased with the end result.
Regards,
Rich
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Nice :-))
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Here she is secure in her case. I use LED puk lights for illumination. Elevated the model up some for better viewing. I need to find some black metal clips to secure the case top to base, as it is just resting there. I'm happy with the results. Cheers ;) Dennis
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