Model Boat Mayhem
Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: Steve Dean on December 14, 2017, 08:36:51 pm
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This week our Club has been contacted by an organisation that's part of the County Council looking to visit our sailing facility with a group of children as part of their education. In principal we were delighted to help ....... HOWEVER, they are now asking us to provide proof that our members have been CRB checked, compliance with the Health & Safety at Work Act, proof of Public Liability Insurance, etc, etc, etc.
Surprise, surprise, we have written to them and politely declined to help.
I know of several Clubs that no longer have Junior membership because of the extent of this sort of thing. In fact in our Club we only accept Junior members if they are the offspring or relative of an Adult member.
AND ...... we all wonder why there are no youngsters in our hobby.
What a sorry mess humanity has got itself into!
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Tell them to plan a field trip to the pond, to let your club know.
All the regulations can then be applied to the city/county park.
If you all just happen to show up in the park at the same time it should all work out.
%)
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as a youth instructor I can tell you....these people are idiots!!
if they are asking for these items then they are too stupid to let near your club!
1) You as a club are not required to have CRB as it is their organisation that is attending you and it is them that are in charge
there for the responsibility falls on them to ensure appropriate behaviour and them who are in charge not you
2) As the organisers it is them who require the public liability insurance, NOT you they organise the trip they are responsible
idiots like this really get others a bad name
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It's like when people pull the supurious health and safety card, which usually translates means "we haven't done a proper risk assessment and don't want to be sued".
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It's like when people pull the supurious health and safety card, which usually translates means "we haven't done a proper risk assessment and don't want to be sued".
Yeah, they cant be bothered so expect others to do it for them <*< <*< <*<
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Umi doesn't understand how the British system works......lol.
There are employees of our councils who make it their duty to make life impossible, the letter of the law is all they understand. We call them jobsworths...... >:-o
I am all for ensuring our children are kept safe and from harm's way, but there must be some common sense involved.
My son has done a month in Tanzania through his school and an outside firm. It was to help those less fortunate than us....building schools, teaching English, build wells......etc etc. The amount of paperwork, disclaimers, permits and money very nearly put us off letting him go. Glad we did really as it was a fantastic experience for him, so much so he is now raising £5500 so he go and do the same thing but in Ecuador next year before he goes off to Uni.
Please world let common sense prevail...... :-))
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It is often the case that the people quoting the 'rules' don't understand the legislation supporting them. As Gingyer says, the responsibility for the kids lies with them just as it would if they were visiting anywhere else.
People simply don't think these days unfortunately.
Same with 'elf & n safety. People assume things without actually reading the requirements which is why playing conkers is deemed to be life threatening.
What we have lost over the last few decades is an understanding of common sense. And this has been compounded by the belief that if there is an accident that 'someone' must be responsible but never the victim. People need to learn and accept responsibility for their own actions.
Colin
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Our club has no problem with junior members.
Our Safeguarding policy document is issued to all new members and to every member when they renew annually....
Child and vulnerable adult protection policy.
Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club does not permit any junior member to attend the lake unless accompanied by their parent,guardian or responsible adult, or if other arrangements have been agreed with another adult, then a letter of permission must be lodged with the Secretary, who will report this to the committee for their approval. This arrangement is deemed a private childcare agreement and is therefore not the responsibility of Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club, or its officers. This also relates to any vulnerable adult.
No CBMBC member is allowed to approach any child, or vulnerable adult, without either the presence of or express permission of that child’s or vulnerable adult’s parent, guardian or responsible adult.
No photograph of any person under the age of 18, or vulnerable adult, may be taken without the permission of the parent,guardian or responsible adult, although general photographs that incidentally include such persons are permitted.
Any CBMBC member accused of inappropriate behaviour with a child or vulnerable adult will be immediately suspended from the club, the details referred to the relevant authority and that member will not be readmitted until said authority has investigated the matter. In the event of a conviction, the said member will be expelled from the club. Inappropriate behaviour is classified as:-
1)Physical harm of any kind.
2)Threatening behaviour.
3)Bullying.
4)Any form of discrimination due to Race, Cultural differences, Gender, Disability or sexuality.
The CBMBC Secretary is the Designated Person to whom any complaint should be directed.
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I am finding this topic very interesting, our club have two slowed down club 500 boats that we let
Children have a sail off. They sit on a seat with the tx neck strap placed over their heads and
the control in their laps, and instructed by a club member and parents there to observe
Their child sailing a boat. We do have club insurance wich the council insists on.
But the club members instructing the child are not CRB checked is it wise to continue letting
The youngsters enjoy having a sail or is it better to cease this activity for health and safety
Reasons. We do have a h&s officer but he is not always there.
John
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It's a dogs breakfast in Australia.......each State has adopted its own rules instead of our Prime Minister decreeing a National one set of rules for all
In Victoria...anyone & everyone having any dealings with children MUST have Working with Children Police Check & Accreditation
In NSW.....the vagaries of the Legislation are so %% ....maybe MUST......maybe NOT .... so only Lawyers will get rich <*<......but it is was so simple.........
As the Secretary of a Co-operative Steam Society [with children as customers of model steam trains] at the time of the introduction of the Legislation....I reviewed the documentation and erred on the side of sensibility
I submitted my details to the Government Office at 0800....by 1100 the same morning I had my Government Working with Children Police Check & Accreditation
It is a generational thing, a number of our older members were cynical of computers searching their records.......[but these same people are the ones that don't use the new fangeled computer thigies].....
Derek
Derek
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Just done a google check and where children are concerned you need a enhanced DBS check
Costing £69:86 CRB check is not good enough.
John
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We recently had our annual Night Sail at Black Park, a couple of hours sailing after dark.
This year the Park required a formal Risk Assessment from our Secretary.
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"Where did you buy that, mester?"
"How much did it cost?"
"Does the propelly go round?"
I just ignore them and they eventually go away. Usually works with their kids, too. >:-o
DM
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aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!
understanding of common sense
As I keep arguing with my boss -there is no such thing as "common sense"!!!!!!!!! It's a phrase which creeps-in more and more as an excuse but "common sense" doesn't mean much at all! Ask 10 different people, get 10 different answers, ask 20, get 20 differerent answers. It's when trending is done which says xx folk made xx the same mistakes again and again -a change is put in place to try to prevent occurences but everyone retaliates back "common sense" should have and "nanny state rules" etc..... I've done far too many HSE investigations over the years (I hate the patronisig mocking term "elfin safety") , and I cannot agree with "common sense should have..." arguments because it's just too subjective. Period. My mum, an OAP had to get CRB clearance to deliver library books in the community ...to OAP's. She didnt't like the implcation so discontinued ....and moved on and volunteered elsewhere.
'tis a shame you guys need CRB clearance or whatever though these days I'm not surprised. I think it's more important to get it and offer the experience and move on than argue about it, otherwise accept it, comply and or move on I think.
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Just done a google check and where children are concerned you need a enhanced DBS check
Costing £69:86 CRB check is not good enough.
John
I would check that again John.
Who needs the enhanced DBS check? Is it a person who is a non family member/guardian with sole supervision of the child? If so then as long as there is a supervising adult/parent/guardian present you probably do not need the DBS check.
This may help
Do you need a DBS check for a one-off school trip?
Many parents or guardians may only go on the odd school trip.There could be a rotation system in use between the parents, or they may only have time to do one occasionally.
In these circumstances it’s unlikely you’ll need a DBS check. This is because teachers will attend all your children’s school trips, and they’ll already be fully vetted. However, they should never leave you unaccompanied with the children, and will make sure they have you under their supervision at all times. These systems are put in place to protect you and the children, but also mean you won’t need to get a DBS check – making life a lot easier for you as an occasional volunteer.
Source https://www.ucheck.co.uk/dbs-checks-and-school-trips/ (https://www.ucheck.co.uk/dbs-checks-and-school-trips/)
AND
Working under Supervision
If you will have unsupervised contact with children for any period of time you will be required to have your name checked against the barred list to make sure you haven’t been banned from working with young people or children.
Schools are not allowed to check supervised volunteers against the barred list and there is no duty for an Enhanced DBS check to be obtained for them – although schools may choose to request one as they judge necessary.
Source http://brannel.com/pta-and-volunteering/ (http://brannel.com/pta-and-volunteering/)
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Lol. Here is a good one. Many moons ago when CRB checks came in i was a scout leader. We regularly went camping. I had all the relevant qualifications for leading a camp on scouts side plus CRB. One camp we jad a vouple of parents along to help out. One of their sons was injured(fell off a log) and i had yo take him to hospital. The said parent came with me. All hispital checks done bandafe applied to relevant part of body and back to camp. When i got back the child asked if he could sleep in his dads tent that night. I had sit and explain to the pair of them that i could not allow that as the parent had signed the child into my care, and that he was not CRB checked, plus i could not allow it anyway under the POR (policy organisation and rules) of the scouts. Much as thought nothing was wrong with the request it wasnt going to happen. The parent said he understood, but then packed all their gear up and went home. Come monday evening im getting a phonecall from the District Commissioner as the parent had complained about my attitude. I was then pulled before an inquiry. I was exonerated BUT that put a serious dent in my scout leadership. Having follwed the rules to the letter, being exonerated i still had to retake several weekends of training to requalify just to lead a camp, as a punishment to show the parents the District took this seriously. Need to say i did not stay a leader for more than a year after that.
But on a serious note....when we do have a go boats, the parents must be with the child. We never touch the child, we hand them the tx after showing them and the parents what to do. We then monitor the parent and child. It is the parents responsibility to control the child. Once time is up we ask the parent to return the tx and also thank both of them for looking after the boat.
The main thing with children and vulnerable adults is DO NOT TOUCH THEM IN ANY WAY
a simple touch on the childs shoulder can by some parents be considered assault
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Every year I played Father Christmas at the local infants and primary schools.
A teacher brought the child to stand by me, another passed me the present and a third teacher took a photograph.
One year I was in the staff room putting on my costume and a school governor came in and asked for my CRB documents.
I have no idea who played Father Christmas that day, or ever since.
Since most child abuse occurs in the home, why doesn't grandad, or the stepfather need checking?
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Hi all, it would be interesting to know if the CRB rules have decreased the 'problem' or has it moved somewhere else?
Just over 20 years ago I was working as a Learning Support Assistant with 5 - 7 year olds. There was no guidance for how I should do this job on a one to one basis with the children.
First of all they see you as another grandad and want to climb all over you, which I could see was not a good idea. After a short time I came up with not sitting next to them but on a chair at 90 degrees behind them and this seemed to work.
At the start I was introduced to the whole school (195 I think) by the Head Mistress as someone they could talk to and be safe with. I was the only male member at the school, all the teachers being female from 20's to near retirement age.
For me it was nice that for a time I knew all the local children and their parents were happy about it, the pay was poor but the rewards were good.
There was no money to fund my time after 2 years so I retired again.
regards Roy
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I did Santa for 6 years at the mixed primary. I was a governor there at the time as well. Believe me I was terrified of the kids......but the mums petrified me. Kids sat on the arm of the chair..
..mums were trying to sit on my lap! After one incident where a polish lady sat in my lap it took 5 adults to get me out of the chair which had gone through the bottom! My wife, Who works at the school was crying with laughter!
Im sticking to dressing as a penguin....its safer
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On our trip boat on the canal, which only takes 12 passengers, we ask if any of the passengers would like to steer. If any child wants to then they are invited, with a parent, to come up and steer. No accompanying parent, no steer! Our skippers do not need a DBS check, but we are always mindful of the risks involved. I will always remember a statement made to me by my scout master when I was helping with our local scouts "We are scouts, not bloody babysitters!"
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There has always been a fatal flaw in the whole CRB / DBS process.
A person is checked against the various databases to check if they have any related convictions.
Organisations variously require you to repeat your CRB etc check between one and three years.
If a person CRB checked receives a relevant conviction, the day after a CRB / DBS check, the authorities feel no obligation to inform the relevant bodies who have required the check done. That person can carry on working with children and vulnerable adults until another check process is done.
Dumb, and dangerous IMHO.
Relevant bodies who have requested checks should be informed immediately following such a conviction.
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In referring to 'elf & safety I was was not denigrating the concept, just being ironic. It is of course essential when used in the appropriate context and having proper procedures has obviously saved countless lives in various situations.
But there can be a tendency to use it as an excuse for not making a decision or accepting responsibility in circumstances where no regulations or good practice requirements actually apply - hence conkers. People are ignorant of the law so they play safe which, to be fair, is to some extent understandable in today's litigious world where there is no such thing as an 'accident'.
A few years ago I tripped over a kerb in Chatham Dockyard and went flat on my face but no serious damage done. It was entirely my own fault, I wasn't looking where I was going. Nearby staff dusted me down and a lady came out to enquire after my welfare. She seemed very relieved when I said that it was my own silly fault and I had no intention of suing the dockyard.
Colin
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Wow ...... I only started this thread yesterday evening and I am stunned by the number of replies. Thank you all for your contributions.
Your responses just underpin the reason why I entitled this thread, 'Sad state of our society'.
As someone once said ....... "Stop the planet, I want to get off"
To lighten the mood ...... may I wish you all seasons greetings and may Santa bring you lots of modelling stuff.
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CRB/DBS's aren't really worth the paper they are wiped on, all it proves is you haven't been caught!!
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I have an enhanced DBS and believe me there is a lot of stuff on it.
Enhanced does just do convictions. If you have ever had dealings with the police in any official capacity it is on there. Im 50 and was surprised when i read mine about a raped i was witness to when i was 13!
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Ps most people dont get to see their DBS. They get a certificate saying they have an enhanced one. Also the shool had access to a Database to check if there were any problems after the start date.
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I have an enhanced DBS and believe me there is a lot of stuff on it.
Enhanced does just do convictions. If you have ever had dealings with the police in any official capacity it is on there. Im 50 and was surprised when i read mine about a raped i was witness to when i was 13!
yeah, but it was meant to send an alert to the organisation should you do anything wrong....
it has not done so, in cases I have been privy to there has been Racial Assault, serious assault conviction but these were not notified
yet a traffic conviction for speeding was...
the idea behind the system is good but not being properly utilised at the top in my opinion
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I volunteered a few years with Age Concern to teach Computing to the aged.That required a CRB check and I was often older than the learners.As for what the Powers know about you I came out the army '68 made some enquiries a couple of years later in the National front till a bunch of hells angels came round to encourage me to join I didn't But 8 years later when I went for my interview to become a special constable I got a We see you were once interested in the national front? no computor records then
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Our club has no problem with junior members.
Our Safeguarding policy document is issued to all new members and to every member when they renew annually....
Child and vulnerable adult protection policy.
Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club does not permit any junior member to attend the lake unless accompanied by their parent,guardian or responsible adult, or if other arrangements have been agreed with another adult, then a letter of permission must be lodged with the Secretary, who will report this to the committee for their approval. This arrangement is deemed a private childcare agreement and is therefore not the responsibility of Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club, or its officers. This also relates to any vulnerable adult.
No CBMBC member is allowed to approach any child, or vulnerable adult, without either the presence of or express permission of that child’s or vulnerable adult’s parent, guardian or responsible adult.
No photograph of any person under the age of 18, or vulnerable adult, may be taken without the permission of the parent,guardian or responsible adult, although general photographs that incidentally include such persons are permitted.
Any CBMBC member accused of inappropriate behaviour with a child or vulnerable adult will be immediately suspended from the club, the details referred to the relevant authority and that member will not be readmitted until said authority has investigated the matter. In the event of a conviction, the said member will be expelled from the club. Inappropriate behaviour is classified as:-
1)Physical harm of any kind.
2)Threatening behaviour.
3)Bullying.
4)Any form of discrimination due to Race, Cultural differences, Gender, Disability or sexuality.
The CBMBC Secretary is the Designated Person to whom any complaint should be directed.
Is your new pond exclusive to the club or is it a public pond ?.
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A warning to KLUNK ......... just over a year ago an individual wearing a penguin costume crept up behind me whilst I was doing the commentary at a well known exhibition. Traumatized to the core, I have nightmares and am now terrified of anything that is black & white!
As I'm a sensitive young thing I feel there is a case to answer. My legal team will be in touch!
However, if you let me sit on your knee and play with your woggle ....... then all is forgiven.
Happy Christmas Klunk.
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Please not the woggle fetish , I am trying therapy to put it all behind me.
Roy
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Is your new pond exclusive to the club or is it a public pond ?.
It is a public pond and as such is open to all.
You do need to be aware there is no access to one side of the lake, so if your model ends up stuck there you will need to be able to rescue it.
Come along on a Sunday morning as my guest and you can have access to all our facilities, including lots of free tea and coffee.
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It is a public pond and as such is open to all.
You do need to be aware there is no access to one side of the lake, so if your model ends up stuck there you will need to be able to rescue it.
Come along on a Sunday morning as my guest and you can have access to all our facilities, including lots of free tea and coffee.
Thanks, if in the area I certainly will, but my query is with this..
Child and vulnerable adult protection policy.
Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club does not permit any junior member to attend the lake unless accompanied by their parent,guardian or responsible adult, or if other arrangements have been agreed with another adult, then a letter of permission must be lodged with the Secretary, who will report this to the committee for their approval. This arrangement is deemed a private childcare agreement and is therefore not the responsibility of Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club, or its officers. This also relates to any vulnerable adult.
How can you inforce this rule as a public pond ?.
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Are you likely to have your Event in 2018 ?.
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A warning to KLUNK ......... just over a year ago an individual wearing a penguin costume crept up behind me whilst I was doing the commentary at a well known exhibition. Traumatized to the core, I have nightmares and am now terrified of anything that is black & white!
As I'm a sensitive young thing I feel there is a case to answer. My legal team will be in touch!
However, if you let me sit on your knee and play with your woggle ....... then all is forgiven.
Happy Christmas Klunk.
Come to Deans Marine open weekend on 2018 Steve. Im game with the Deans Queens next year. Ps it involves dressing up on Saturday night! And I will be camping again and you Nick ( raflaunches) has promised to stay over as well!
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What we have lost over the last few decades is an understanding of common sense.
Colin
It just goes to show that common sense is not very common these days :o
Peter.
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As far as I am aware you do not need a DBS check unless you have regular and repeated contact with the kids.
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Thanks, if in the area I certainly will, but my query is with this..
Child and vulnerable adult protection policy.
Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club does not permit any junior member to attend the lake unless accompanied by their parent,guardian or responsible adult, or if other arrangements have been agreed with another adult, then a letter of permission must be lodged with the Secretary, who will report this to the committee for their approval. This arrangement is deemed a private childcare agreement and is therefore not the responsibility of Colwyn Bay Model Boat Club, or its officers. This also relates to any vulnerable adult.
How can you inforce this rule as a public pond ?.
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Are you likely to have your Event in 2018 ?.
These rules are for our members attending the "club", members of the public using the same space are beyond our remit and responsibility. It is one part of our H&S statement, which also forbids members from entering the water. Youths jump in quite often in summer and the management of that is a council responsibility.
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Negotiations for an Events Licence is still ongoing and shows no sign of being signed off in 2018.
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A warning to KLUNK ......... just over a year ago an individual wearing a penguin costume crept up behind me whilst I was doing the commentary at a well known exhibition. Traumatized to the core, I have nightmares and am now terrified of anything that is black & white!
As I'm a sensitive young thing I feel there is a case to answer. My legal team will be in touch!
However, if you let me sit on your knee and play with your woggle ....... then all is forgiven.
Happy Christmas Klunk.
no woggle touching!
and a happy new year
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I have been interested to read the comments on the topic of working with children as it applies in the UK. I looked up the subject as it applies here in NSW and discovered the following - It is known as the Working With Children Check, and if you are a volunteer it's free. The check includes any workplace misdemeanours as well as any criminal history and, once issued, the clearance is good for 5 years, but is constantly monitored for possible infringements. I was interested to find that if you are a parent or close relative of a member of a sporting team and are coaching that team, the check is not required. Similarly, referees, linespersons etc do not need a check. However, as the check is free, if I was involved in an organisation which included contact with children, I would apply for the check, it would be better to be safe than sorry.
When I was involved with a local football club, both as a player and junior coach, such checks were unheard of - how times have changed.
Peter.
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Following the recent abuse enquiry ALL our Op-Shop (Charity Shop) and Church volunteers are required to have both "Working with Children" and "Police" checks whether they are likely to come in contact with children or vulnerable people or not.
Just to be on the safe side!