Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Technical, Techniques, Hints, and Tips => Painting, Finishing and Care. => Topic started by: FerryNostalgic on January 18, 2018, 12:32:39 PM

Title: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: FerryNostalgic on January 18, 2018, 12:32:39 PM
Hi All


I have just started painting the superstructure of my model and followed advice on this forum to use Halfords "Appliance White" gloss aerosol paint. Unfortunately, I am getting an "orange peel" effect to the finish (see photos). The paint was applied over perfectly smooth coats of high-build white primer. I am spraying at about 25-30 cm from the surface.




I would be grateful for any advice...


Thanks
JP
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: TailUK on January 18, 2018, 12:56:17 PM
Seen that happen when the can is held too far away or when the can is very cold.  Personally I avoid Appliance white as its a bit stark for my taste, you might be better with a car colour white.  A light rubdown and another try is probably called for but warm the can first.
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: FerryNostalgic on January 18, 2018, 01:37:13 PM
Thanks TailUK,
I did try warming the can first, but obviously not enough! The garage where I'm working is petty cold and so is the model...

Actually I agree about the white being too stark. Do you happen to know of any particular white car colours that are a bit softer?
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: TailUK on January 18, 2018, 01:45:36 PM
I've always liked Nissan Artic White for white projects.
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: inertia on January 18, 2018, 02:04:47 PM
I've always treated 15C as the minimum temperature for spraying. I also use Halfords rattle cans and can attest to the orange-peel probably resulting from too low a temperature and too much distance from the workpiece. I'd advise you to leave it to dry in a warm room until you can't smell even a trace of solvent with your nose smack up against it - then leave it another 48 hours. Rub down with 600 wet-or-dry then recoat it when it's warmer. BTW I also use Appliance Gloss White. Hope this helps.
Dave M
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: FerryNostalgic on January 18, 2018, 02:14:30 PM
@TailUK - Thanks for the advice. I will try Nissan Artcic White and compare it.Given a car colour code/name, I could get the paint colour made up and use my airbrush. I'm still very much a novice with it but I'm sure it will give me more control and better results than an aerosol...

@Inertia - Thanks for confirming the advice on temperature. Been spraying in my very cold garage. I will rub down and have another go in warmer conditions.
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: roycv on January 18, 2018, 02:21:59 PM
Hi warming up the model can help stop the orange peel effect, not always easy though.
Roy
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 18, 2018, 02:25:11 PM
Use a hair dryer to GENTLY warm the model and stand the paint can in warm water for a short while before using.

Colin
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Tug-Kenny on January 18, 2018, 03:57:34 PM

That's what I have been doing Colin.

It works a treat but the room must be warm after for at least the first few hours.

Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Brian60 on January 18, 2018, 05:05:32 PM
DON'T SPRAY THE CAR PAINT OVER THE APPLIANCE WHITE -- THEY ARE INCOMPATIBLE AND YOUR ORANGE PEELING NOW IS NOTHING TO WHAT IT WILL BECOME IF YOU PUT THE CAR PAINT OVER IT.
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Colin Bishop on January 18, 2018, 05:19:30 PM
I fear Brian is right! You may have to stick with appliance white after rubbing fown the existing finish, unless you strip it all off!

Colin
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: inertia on January 18, 2018, 05:38:24 PM
I've never had a compatibility problem when spraying Halfords colours on top of each other - even the Appliance White. If you use another brand then it's a different matter.
DM
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: cos918 on January 18, 2018, 06:36:03 PM
been there done that got the tee shirt.
Yes cold effect the paint . I have painted at 5 deg and got away with it . Trick there is soon as you have finished spraying out side move the model indoors straight away to a nice warm room .
Your main culprit is the primer , If you have built up thick layers of that primer . What I found was when you top coat in your final colour . it re softens the primer . Now if the primer  coat was just a dusting happy day ,thick layer and you get all sorts going on. I use appliance white all the time  . I find with any so called car make white has a yellow or blue to it .
If it was me I would give a light sand once the paint is rock hard. then lots of VERY VERY light coats eg one pass and see how that works .
I have painted over appliance white with other halfords paints no problems . If in doubt do a test .


john
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Stavros on January 18, 2018, 07:45:15 PM
Sorry to say this but the underlying primer has nothing at all to do with orange peel


Causes of Orange peel with Aerosols


Poor technique
Can held to far away from the work
Can NOT  shaken long enough
Aerosol to cold


How to cure the finish


Rub down with 800 wet dry wet with fairy liquid or equivellent
Respray again


Leave the can in the house to get to room temp for a couple of days.
Warm the aerea that you are painting
Spray the model approx 9ins away


I DO NOT RECCOMEND  putting ANY aerosol in a bucket of water at all as these are a pressurised container and in extreme conditions they WILL explode especially if the are warmed up and this is made worse by shaking.


Dave
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: mrzippy on January 18, 2018, 08:23:16 PM
Think there's been more replies while I've typed this but here goes - from bitter personal experience -
don't spray Halfraud's Primer back over Halfraud's Gloss - it will act like paint stripper !

Also a friend (30 years car paint spraying experience) restoring a valuable vintage motorbike petrol tank,
time constrants forced him to use Halford's aerosols when his compressor expired.
Primers ok, metallic silver gloss ok, lacquer all ok, the final coat of Halford's petrol resistant lacquer
applied according to instructions stripped everything off back down to the metal !

I use Halford's paint on my models - it's readily available, convenient to use etc,
and generally it's ok, but occasionally a new can acts like a Dry Powder Fire Extinguisher,
the paint shoots out dry and will not flow out to liquid ?

Paul

The price also amazes me, each time I buy a large can its gone up another quid !
 
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Klunk on January 19, 2018, 02:38:27 AM
B and M store gloss white, black and grey and matt of the same colours above plus laquer all 1.49 a can
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Klunk on January 19, 2018, 02:39:51 AM
Ps for red oxide hull colours and grey, black green or blue hull colours i use floor paint from wilco. 3 a small tin.
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: carlmt on January 19, 2018, 02:47:16 PM
That is rather unfortunate JP - sorry to see this mate.

Be aware though that, with the Appliance White, I have never managed to get a completely smooth, flat, gloss finish.  Close, yes...but not absolutely perfect.

The Norland is sprayed with this and has a slightly matt (only slightly mind) finish - which I personally prefer to the full-on gloss.

Over glossy can look wrong on a scale model...

PS - The window frames look damn good though!!!!
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: RST on January 19, 2018, 05:59:45 PM
Just wanted to say as soon as I saw the first post my immediate thought especially this time of year was temperature.  Having some auto spraying background I wouldn't rattle can anything near 15deg.  More like 20-25 (which seems to be what most suppliers I've found recommend).

Re: rubbing back -you might get on better with Scotchbrite pads and I've often used them wet, with a dab of natural soap.  They conform to curves and around fine detail much better than abrasive paper.  Check your local auto factor paint shops or industrial counters.  If you're careful this may even flatten back enough not to require a re-coat!

With regards to choice of paint I have no issues with Halfords paints -they've got a very good reputation for what they are though this past year I think the forumation has changed slightly.  I've switched to appliance white also though -but I'm using Rustoleum this time -I would have preferred Plasticote but couldn't find it anywhere.  Usual caveats / guidance apply on compatibility.

Hope this helps -it's looking good otherwise -white is one colour I hate doing!

Rich
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: FerryNostalgic on January 20, 2018, 10:23:09 AM
Thank you all so much for your advice. I'm bowled over by the responses  :-) :-) :-)

In future, I will test-spray a piece of plastic card before moving onto the model.

As you can see from my photos, the superstructure has loads of protruding window frames that are close together, which make sanding really difficult. Things went badly wrong when fitting these, so I had no option but to use a high-build primer to smooth out the imperfections, which worked really well. It's only when I sprayed over it with Halfords Appliance White that it all went seriously pear-shaped!

I've started rubbing it all back down again, but sanding around the window frames is really awkward and this has brought back all the imperfections. I have no option but to use some kind of high-build primer again but will test a small area first!

No more Halfords Appliance White (or any other aerosol finishing coats) for me. I will try to be brave and use my airbrush, after I have found a suitable shade of white. I will also wait for much warmer conditions before I spray!

Thank you all again!
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Brian60 on January 21, 2018, 09:23:21 AM
I said do not put Halfords car paints over appliance white for a good reason....

Appliance white is a enamel based paint for kitchen appliances, this is for the hard wearing properties of enamel paints.

Halfords car paint is a cellulose based acrylic paint - that's why it has the awful smell.

Anyone that knows paint will know that you can put enamel over cellulose, but you cannot do it the other way around, if you do, the top coat will craze and crinkle far worse than any orange peel affect.

So the  way forward is to stick to one paint system only, either car spray paints, plasticote paints, humbrol or whatever, do not intermix unless you have done a test panel first.

The one departure from this is halfords spray primers, as they are going on the substrate (the ship) first, there is not normally any reaction to other paints you put over the top. I use red oxide primer for below waterline, then mask that off and use Humbrol enamels above the waterline, although I am slowly coming round to using Vallejo acrylics, once dry they are purported to be waterproof, but I seal them under a clearcoat anyway.
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: cos918 on January 21, 2018, 06:27:09 PM
I said do not put Halfords car paints over appliance white for a good reason....

Appliance white is a enamel based paint for kitchen appliances, this is for the hard wearing properties of enamel paints.

Halfords car paint is a cellulose based acrylic paint - that's why it has the awful smell.

Anyone that knows paint will know that you can put enamel over cellulose, but you cannot do it the other way around, if you do, the top coat will craze and crinkle far worse than any orange peel affect.

So the  way forward is to stick to one paint system only, either car spray paints, plasticote paints, humbrol or whatever, do not intermix unless you have done a test panel first.

The one departure from this is halfords spray primers, as they are going on the substrate (the ship) first, there is not normally any reaction to other paints you put over the top. I use red oxide primer for below waterline, then mask that off and use Humbrol enamels above the waterline, although I am slowly coming round to using Vallejo acrylics, once dry they are purported to be waterproof, but I seal them under a clearcoat anyway.


Hello Brian
I think you must be mixing up paints Because ,Halfords gloss appliance white is acrylic based like there car paints .  I have used appliance white on Celestine then painted over with both halfords and hycoat car paint with no problems . If it was enamel based i would have had paint reactions all over Celestine .
Here is the speck sheet
http://www.halfords.com/motoring/paints-body-repair/car-spray-paints/halfords-gloss-white-spray-paint-500ml

john
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: Brian60 on January 23, 2018, 02:55:51 PM
As I see from the spec sheet. But I also see it is named gloss white, it is not named appliance white. The true appliance whitch they used to stock was totally incompatible with their car paint range.
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: inertia on January 23, 2018, 03:40:16 PM
http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/Fairey-Huntsman-31-PR814.html (http://www.slecuk.com/balsa-wood/Fairey-Huntsman-31-PR814.html)

I built this display model about 18 months ago for SLEC and this is what I used to paint it, in the following order.

Whole model - U-Pol white primer
Roof, hull sides and transom - Halfords Appliance Gloss White
Dark blue cabin sides - Halfords Ford Royal Blue
Boot topping stripe - Halfords Ford Olympic Blue
Hull below waterline - Halfords Rover Pageant Mid Blue

I'll be only too happy to submit photographs of the cans, if necessary.

The white was masked off only at the edges so it was definitely oversprayed with all of the blues. There was no incompatibility whatsoever.
I have found that Halfords White Primer is too soft, even when dry, so I use the U-Pol on the advice of Dave 'Stavros' Jones, who apparently knows a thing or two about car paints.
QED?

DM
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: cos918 on January 23, 2018, 03:54:50 PM
Have to agree on the white primer from halfords . even when set it is still soft .


john
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: RST on January 23, 2018, 09:38:23 PM
In my experience white primer from Halfords never used to be "soft" -until the last few cans I've had anyway.  In any case I can tell you most of Halfords rattle cans have been acrylic for a very long time.  proper paint (cely) was banned in Scotland a very long time before England -it's been a nightmare to get proper paint up here for a good while unless you were commercial.

FerryNostalgic

...Did you get any scotchbrite?  It's brilliant at cutting back round detail.  It may save you allot of hassle -particularly on leaving paint as-is.  It's as rough or delicate as you buy it and use-it.  It may save you allot of hassle!


Worth noting also humidity is a spray painting killer, possibly more with airbrush than rattle can.  You need a reasonably dry (and warm) environment) to spray.  I have a relatively cheap dehumidifier I use for drying clothes, my last one lasted 10 years constantly drying clothes and setting up rooms for spraying.  Can't complain and no complaints of orange peel -varnish clouding.


Hope this helps,


Rich


Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: FerryNostalgic on January 26, 2018, 03:17:57 PM
@RST


Thanks for your advice. I will get Scotchbrite but for this I just used a combination of 400 and 600 sandpaper and Modelcraft flexi-sanders to get around all the awkward bits. Unfortunately this model ship has protruding window frames which made it doubly difficult. I sanded down the orange-peel surface and re-coated with Optima High-Build Primer (from Euro Car Parts) which has given me a perfectly smooth finish and hidden the worst of the imperfections.


Now I just need to spray over it with white paint (but I won't be using Halfords Appliance White). I'm tempted to use my recently acquired airbrush but will bear in mind your note of caution regarding humidity. It's not particularly humid here in London right now, just a little cold. I just need to find the right shade of white. Time to speak to a car paint supplier...


JP
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: cos918 on January 26, 2018, 06:10:54 PM
As I see from the spec sheet. But I also see it is named gloss white, it is not named appliance white. The true appliance whitch they used to stock was totally incompatible with their car paint range.


Just got home from working away . Looked at the back of the can of Appliance white gloss and it say Acrylic


John
Title: Re: Orange Peel Effect using Halfords Appliance White Aerosol
Post by: cos918 on January 26, 2018, 06:15:43 PM
Hi JP
Before you decide on what white to do . It would be worth considering what type of paint you are going to use for the hull green/orange. This could have an effect on what paint you can use .
John