Model Boat Mayhem

Mess Deck: General Section => Tugs and Towing => Topic started by: Smyster on February 06, 2018, 10:38:38 am

Title: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on February 06, 2018, 10:38:38 am

Hi All,
I'm based in Whitehaven, Cumbria so wondering if there's any clubs in my location, have previously built RC Cars both Tamiya and Nitro as well as tanks but these were always as kits and upgrades with assistance from the local club. Think great to join a forum instead of spending loads and getting it wrong with some professional advice.

I bought a Billings SMIT Nederland a couple of years ago off ebay for £80 part started which myself and my 8 year old son have decided to start and crack on with for the last month putting a bit of time in.First kit and a few lessons learned with regards to painting what not to use and things reacting DOH but nearly there, never built a wood building a tug should you use a geared motor seen 6:1 suggested? 2 came with the kit I've fitted but these go like the clappers and seem a bit noisy, RS-550SH Chinese motors running 6v ( Will get some internal pics just painting the hull). Thinking I'd best buy a Mtroniks speed controller something decent just testing with a Losi rc car one at the moment for getting rudders set up.

Kit was missing quite a few fittings such as the stanchions which I canít seem to find bought 1 pack of 10 then out of stock, part Number F627 if anyone knows of any,  missing venturi tubes but £56 to buy all 28 think will try and make my own. The becker rudders were also missing so just fitted standard ones as unable to source, So there's a bit about the model and where we are so look forward to getting advice and help along the way thanks.

Have a 1.72 Revell flower class corvette which I built a 15 years ago but also picked another hull up to RC it so next project already in the pipe line.
Title: Re: Hi All, New to the hobby, bit on our project
Post by: Martin [Admin] on February 06, 2018, 11:14:06 am
 
Greeting Smyster,

Welcome to the Mayhem!

Great looking Neddy..... is that you or the grandson?!   ok2
Title: Re: Hi All, New to the hobby, bit on our project
Post by: Smyster on February 06, 2018, 02:59:09 pm
Thanks Martin, its a dad and lad project with an impatient son who can't wait to get it into the water for its maiden run lol, few bathtub runs first, need to investigate ballast setting up and just waiting on a speed controller on ebay to see if I win, MTRONIKS viiper marine 25A one, don't want to run it out with the rc car one in the water. Also not sure to remove the motors which came with the boat and fit some geared ones.


Cheers

Title: Re: Hi All, New to the hobby, bit on our project
Post by: big_bri on February 06, 2018, 04:31:25 pm
Try Scoonies for your rudders, they had them in stock last year at haydock :-))
Title: Re: Hi All, New to the hobby, bit on our project
Post by: ballastanksian on February 06, 2018, 08:38:30 pm
Welcome to the Forum Team Smyster! I hope you both have lots of fun with your build. The stanchions might be available from a company like Cornwall Model Boats either as original Billings or from another manufacturer based upon dimentions and number of holes etc.

Have a good 'binge read' of the topics and build logs and you will find so much inspiration and wise advice.

Title: Re: Hi All, New to the hobby, bit on our project
Post by: Smyster on February 07, 2018, 09:10:04 am
Cheers Ballastanksian


Bought the last pack of 10 from cornwall model boats, missing a lot of deck fittings I've to source but would have been nice to complete that part.
Title: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 07, 2018, 09:33:26 am
Hi all


Previously posted an introduction in chit chat, wrong part doh.
Building a Smit Nederland pretty much done bar missing deck fittings, boat was an ebay part done purchase, I'm after advice the boat came with the motors pictured which I've fitted but after firing up you can get a good turn of speed which might not be suitable for this boat?, seems quiet noisey, do you need a geared motor, seen model slipway on there adziz tug recommend 6:1 ratio when trying to find info would it be similar for this boat.
Bidding on a MTRONIKS viper 25A speed controller to use, have a sealed 6v 7AH battery says initial current less than 2.1A to fit in the space pictured.
Stupid question are the props made water tight just by injecting grease into the shafts and tighten up the nuts enough so they spin freely, do you put a lock nut behind them.
By the way will be tidy in there when I finish and can solder lol,
Have a 2 Chanel futaba transmitter from a rc car for the time being and a 7 Chanel RC plane one can these be used, bought off ebay thinking it would be ok to switch the lights on and off and in time when I add a smoke generator.
Don't want to buy to much stuff that will be of no use in trial and error.


Advice appreciated for a newbie and thanks in advance
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Tug-Kenny on February 07, 2018, 10:26:21 am
Hi and welcome to the Forum.

The 550's are multi-pole motors and quite suitable for a tug.  They will have the gentle power (when run slowly via the speed controller) that will be ideal for your tug.  They will sound noisy on the bench but will perform at sea OK.

The props do need a locking nut and along with some oil will not leak enough to bother your voyage.   :-)

Hope this helps

ken

Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 07, 2018, 10:39:48 am
Hi Smyster,


Welcome to model boating and particularly the world of tugs :-)) .


It depends with your plane transmitter. If it is 35 meg then it cannot be used for any form of surface craft.


You will find that you will need more channels as you get more into tugging.  Bow thrusters, working winches etc %%
But maybe that's for the future :-))
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: JimG on February 07, 2018, 11:04:26 am
It might be worth checking out the prop shafts. The originals kits were plated brass and I found that prolonged running wore away the plating at the rear bearing and started to wear the shaft making it a very loose fit in the bearing. (Admittedly it had run in two 24 hour events run by the club)It might be an idea to replace them with new stainless steel shafts which should not wear.
Jim
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 07, 2018, 11:48:25 am
Hi Butts


BY 35 meg I take it that is the frequency, it is 35.170TF which I'm guessing the frequency you are talking about so no good then, will stick with the 2 Chanel one for the time being, it does still operate the lights when going in a foward/reverse motion so will do for the time being.
Jim shafts looked stainless that come with brass ends so that's a relief as gorilla glued them in now, will be a pain if I ever need to replace.
Just waiting on a syringe for my grease before refitting the props and role on bath test and look at ballast.


Cheers for clearing that up guys


Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 07, 2018, 12:06:44 pm
Hi again Steve,


Yes on both counts, don't go there.


As you say soldier on with the 2 channel for the moment.


Michael
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 08, 2018, 04:59:57 pm
Hi Michael, or any other members


What can you recommend if looking for a transmitter,is it just avoid 35mhz, looking at cornwall model boats site most seem to be for planes when you read the specs but nearly all on the 2.4ghz frequency. So is a plane one ie 4 channels ok thinking of running either motor off a separate speed controller seen an article on here from Dave Milbourne on different methods of control.  4 channel one with either stick controlling a motor, Or use a mixer?
More to it than I first thought and another member kindly rang me and explained a bit about current the pull etc


Is the 35mhz issue to do with how it transmits ie ok in the sky but no good in water, reason being I bought it thinking it would have had better range as it was for planes.


Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 08, 2018, 05:24:45 pm
Hi Steve,


The 35mhz issue is not to do with performance but that it is effectively illegal to use it for any kind of
surface craft.  It is purely dedicated to aircraft.


There are, as you say, many kinds of sets, but I would recommend if you are buying that you go for 2.4 ghz.
The difference is, no concerns about other boats in the pond/lake and no need for a peg system etc. Your set up is dedicated to you and
your boats.  Most sets allow for many boats to be bound to the transmitter so you only need the one.
At one time the go to inexpensive set was Planet, but unfortunately they are no longer made.  There are others to look out for though.
The spec for most transmitter is biased to planes or helicopters, but the 2.4s work well with boats.  Go for at least four channels, most fit that bill anyway.


For example, I use four channels for motors and steering - a tractor tug with 2 independent  schottel drives. I have three other channels for lights, and two working winches.


Michael
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 09, 2018, 10:12:45 am
Thanks very much for clearing that up Michael, some learning there didn't think there was that much to RC boating, more to it than I first thought.


Cheers Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 09, 2018, 04:02:22 pm
Not a problem, happy to help.


We're not exactly on your doorstep, but if you fancy seeing tugs put through their paces
consider a ride to Balne Moor MBC in the summer for one of our events (details on the website - link below).


You're welcome to a play with one of my tugs.


Michael
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 09, 2018, 09:02:58 pm
Thanks for the Invite Michael, we are over flamingo land a bit so over that way so will have a look on the website at dates thanks, would be very interesting to see, was thinking Id have the boat in the water this week but having a complete re think on the electrics side now to get things right, didn't think about it going up in flames lol


Cheers Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Fastfaz on February 09, 2018, 09:39:12 pm
Yo Steve,
     I can thoroughly recommend a trip to Balne moor nice people,great food and really friendly. You will learn more about towing in a day than you would trying on your own for a year! We travel over from Southport every time we can and if you need any advice or help these are the guys to speak to.
       Regards, Pete :-))
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: ballastanksian on February 09, 2018, 10:26:18 pm
And an eye opener and potential inspiration for your son as well  :-)) Seeing loads of Tugs saling is a grand sight.

Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 10, 2018, 09:45:14 am
Hey, Pete,
 
How you doing?  Are we going to see your Maltby sometime this season? :-))


Steve, try not to rush into things and make purchases carefully.


For instance I'm a big advocate of Action Electronics kit from Component Shop.  My tugs have
P94 controllers.  They are not cheap, but when you compare to buying two other brand of controller,
then the cost is reasonable.  You can set one up as a mixer for the moment and use your car 2 channel.
Later if you get further into the world of tugging it will convert to a twin controller and you can then enter the
dark art of tank steering.  That takes a bit of getting used to, but increases control no end.


The main thing is to enjoy!


Regards
Michael
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 10, 2018, 11:02:48 am
Hi Michael,


Thanks for that, just thought I have an 1:72  RC tiger Tank I built a few years ago which Id thought would be no good as with a tank it controls either motor for steering so would probably do the job, also had  another 3 channels for sound, fiiring airsoft BB and somke generator which has broke as would have liked to transfer to the tug. Just need to check if the transmitter has steering drag it out the loft this afternoon.


Had bought a Mtronics Marine 25A ESC and was going to purchase another for the other side, would you not recommend using these, will look at action electronics.


The info on the motors I found says they pull 8.4 Amp at max efficiency and has a stall current of 56.5 Amp,had bought a 6v battery to run it now going to change to a 12V battery, thinking a 20amp inline fuse on each speed controller. If the Mtroniks are no good will use that on another project I bought a Revell flower class corvette a few years ago to RC along with the 6v Battery. Have a full size static model I built 15years ago I was going to transfer onto the new hull.


Your right does start getting expensive, the bargain boat was missing quite a few fittings which I've ordered, made a lot of missing parts to cut costs but at £80 for the kit and another £100 on fittings not too bad a price compared to a new kit.


Cheers for the continued advice, club looks great with its own clubhouse, live in the lake district more water than most places and nearest club is Carlisle an hrs drive need to make contact with once they start up.
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 10, 2018, 04:54:20 pm
I would certainly fish out your tank, it might be just what you need.  I was just trying to demonstrate
what you could do with 2 channels.  The tank obviously has more so might be just the thing. I do not
know what system it contains, but it's worth a go.


The Mtronics is fine, you could certainly use two of those. A word of caution though, I'm not sure which model
controller it was, but our Chairman had a near thing with his boat when a Mtronics controller burst into
flames with the boat on the pond. Fortunately he got to it in time Possibly an isolated incident, but worth mentioning.


Ken has already told you the motors are OK.  You won't need great rpm, it is more of a matter of torque and relatively slow running.
Remember your batteries make excellent ballast in a tug.  I always run 12v.  Protecting the speed controllers with fuses is always sensible.


Regards
Michael





Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 10, 2018, 07:24:44 pm
Hi Michael


Apologies for what may seem like more daft questions, tank no go,


Cornwall model boats have a Saturn XR6 6Ch Combo 2.4GHz FHSS  for only £54 out of stock but same price else where which seems reasonable to start and could save buying a mixed at £25 ish if I can run either motor of either stick,

Action electronics have the P80 condor 20A at £34.50, would 2 of these suffice, a 25A Mtroniks one is £30 which I would need to buy another of (The one I have can be used in another project), I have been recommended the Action by somebody else I have spoken to. Do you need a separate BEC something else I have just come across. Or if you run a separate battery pack to the receiver this is not required.

Like you say can be expensive and try to get it right, what I have bought already could be used on my other project so wont be wasted but don't really want to start wasting any more, need to relist my plane transmitter on ebay.
say current on max operation 8.5 amp

Theres a diagram of my motors the RS-550SH if then Action controllers I've mentioned seem suitable

Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Fastfaz on February 10, 2018, 09:49:27 pm
Two part reply.
   Hi Mike yes the Pegasus will be at Ba!ne in April (we are away on the bikes March), I'll email you some pictures of the finished boat.
     Re Action parts. I had an issue with the bow thruster on my latest build the Pegasus the problem being I needed full power in both directions, after burning out an Electronics es c and trying various other dad's I rang Component shop for advice  I spoke to Kiej  and explained the problem ( the very high Rpm 550 motor was pulling 15 amps with no load sitting on the stand not in the water) He put me on the right track with a lower rpm motor and a P98 es c. Once my Spektrum DX6 transmitter was set correctly instant success. The Pegasus has twin Schottle drive with brushless motors combined with the bow thruster the maneuverability is amazing.
    I would definitely recommend that you consider using Action electrics and go down the route of tank steering, it takes time to master (I'm still learning) but you really will enjoy it.
       Good luck and I hope you get it sorted.
            Regards, Pete.
P.S. Mike day hi to Tess we hope to come over on the bikes March the 4th



Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 11, 2018, 10:34:02 am
Hi Pete,
Good to hear we'll see Pegasus on the pond soon. We'll be away as usual in March, but will be back
for the April tug tow.  I think I've told you before I too have gone down the road of schottel
drives on my latest build. As it is a tractor, no bow thruster! We'll see how that goes %% I doubt though that it will be ready for April. 
Tess says hi back.

Steve,
There are no daft questions, just things you do not yet know.  Equally, I do not claim to be an expert but
I've been building a long time!

I do not know the Saturn kit, but I've had a look at the listing on Cornwall MB's website. The spec looks similar to the Planet I mentioned before. It will lack the whistles and bells of more expensive systems,
but it will do the job. If it is like the Planet, it might have a more limited range, though I do not know that for sure.  However that generally is not a problem with a boat.  The yachting members of our club sail
on a bigger lake and can get to the edge of the range of such transmitters, but most people cannot see that far {-) .


Yes, the P80s will do the job, but personally I'd still go for the twin channel P94. It is only £10 more than
two P80s and does give you the mixer option.  I still maintain you're better to master tank steering,
but you'll have the option to use it as a mixer if you find tank too difficult.  It's your choice.

Yes, most, if not all, Action controllers are built without becs.  Again it is more money, but I use a
P102 board.  Not only does that give you bec at 5v, it also neatly deals with all the wiring and some of the required fusing. I know I sound like a salesman, but it all works so well.

Whilst we are talking about cost, what have you got on the end of your propshafts?

Regards
Michael
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Captain fizz on February 11, 2018, 11:32:14 am

Whilst we are talking about cost, what have you got on the end of your propshafts?

Regards
Michael




Motors.......... ok2
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 11, 2018, 11:56:57 am
Hi Michael


Thanks again, Ive two x 3 bladed 50mm props, left hand and right hand, billings own which I purchased from Cornwall model boats as missing from the kit £30, brass type material Part F654. On stainless props, with them stainless couplings on the motors mentioned and pictured. Again do you need a lock nut behind then as one dropped off when I was testing on the bench.


On cost thinking maybe more expensive to start with but cheaper in the long run over the years than changing round and if thats what works and lasts, saved money on the boat kit from new price.


I had not seen the P94 just looked at the speed controllers P80 and thought they would fit the bill, A lot neater having one unit


Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 11, 2018, 01:43:44 pm



Motors.......... ok2


OK, I left myself open to that one :}


 I ask, because props soon become expensive. Yours will be OK, but the time may come when you look
at 4 blade kort props. If you do, look at Protean Design. They are not cheap, but are a thing of beauty. They are though cheaper than the now defunct Prop Shop offerings were.
 
Yes you do need lock nuts, props are too expensive to loose.  One day someone will dredge our pond and make a killing on recovering lost props!

When viewed from the stern the port prop runs counter clockwise and the starboard clockwise.

Are you keeping the rudders as in your first photo?  As you know the Neddy has becker rudders. I'm not sure how well it will perform with rudders that far behind the korts.

Michael




Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Netleyned on February 11, 2018, 01:55:50 pm
Hope  stirrers ont other end %%
Ned
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 11, 2018, 02:21:29 pm
Hope  stirrers ont other end %%
Ned


Just so Ned :} or should we start with the battery?  %%
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 11, 2018, 03:22:56 pm
Hi Michael


Found some Becker rudders for £50 should be £70 they said RRP that was for the billings ones that should have been with the kit but missing, was pointed in the direction on here to Scoonies who have them, seem to be a stock issue, was going to try these first. There are some plastic ones on ebay from Austalia at £14 with postage when I was searching for becker rudders, would these make a big difference. Did not glue them in just used sealant round the nuts incase I had to replace.


Don't want to mention batteries as can just see the ££££s coming lol, guessing lipo the best but for the time being was just going to use sealed lead acid, just is the Ahr the highert he better within reason ie a 10 is better than 7 know you don't want to fry your electrics.


Thought bought a bargain boat for £80 and, this ain't going to cost a lot, how wrong was I, but got the bug now so best try and do it right, will be going down the Action electronics route.


Cheers Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Shipmate60 on February 11, 2018, 05:46:38 pm
For a tug Gell cells are fine.
No great current draw and good for ballast and wallet.


Bob
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Fastfaz on February 11, 2018, 06:11:24 pm
Hi Steve,
     Lipo's in a tug MMM! the people in the know (Balne Moor) use Sealed Lead Acid batteries and this is what I have been using for some years without problems.If you decide to use Lipo's have a good look on Google at the fire videos, the other issue I foresee is ballast Lipo's are very light SLA's are heavy. My Pegasus needs a full roll of 6 inch lead flashing and a 14AH SLA battery to get her down to the waterline consequently I made the ballast into a removable lead block this plus the battery are fitted in the hull at the waterside as you would not want to carry the tug ready to sail with everything in place.
     Hope this helps and if you need any advice please contact me.
           Cheers, Pete. :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 11, 2018, 06:29:31 pm
Pete has pretty much covered the arguments about batteries. I always use lead acid.
My biggest tug has a 12v 20ah and a 12v 10ah.  I need no other ballast and I can
assemble it on the water.  Yours is slightly smaller, but as Pete says you'd be surprised
how heavy they need to be achieve the correct waterline. We joke that my tugs are hernia and double hernia class :}  I can run all day though without exhausting them.




As to the beckers to be honest I would not bother.  When you really get the bug, for your next tug
go for steerable korts. Rudders on fixed korts are usually fixed to the back of the kort, becker or not.
What I was commenting on was that yours seem a little too far away.  If you can alter them, that's what
I'd do.
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 11, 2018, 07:51:08 pm
Thanks All


Was thinking that the battery would help towards the ballast and guessing it will need a bit more, unfortunately the rudders came fitted with the boat and hull already drilled but will look at re positioning them.


[size=78%]Thanks again for all the advice[/size]


Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: ballastanksian on February 11, 2018, 09:17:38 pm
You can get SLA batteries for quite reasonable prices from such places as 'Farmers suppliers' like Mole Valley Farmers, or Screwfix do them for under £15.00. They also do 40 AA batteries for a tenner. I know that this isn't the most environmentally friendly way to go but you can recycle them once dead.

Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Stavros on February 11, 2018, 09:26:08 pm
You would be far far better off in your back pocket by buying your batts from Componet shop trust me on this one




Dave
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 12, 2018, 09:55:19 am
Thanks All


Was thinking that the battery would help towards the ballast and guessing it will need a bit more, unfortunately the rudders came fitted with the boat and hull already drilled but will look at re positioning them.




Steve


You'll gather my concern is that you'll lose some of the kort effect with rudders less in contact.  Don't though spoil the boat trying to alter them.  It will give you the impetus to learn how to tank steer :-)) .  You need the rudders less if you can master the art.  A tug will spin in it's own length with opposing prop rotation applied.

Stavros is right, I've found Component Shop competitive on batteries.

Michael.
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 15, 2018, 03:32:43 pm
Thanks Michael


Been away for half term so just got back on line, save wasting money on rudders would the electrics we talked about allow tank steering, the  Saturn 6 channel transmitter and the Action P94 electronics, like before would like to make it as decent as possible and if that outweighs changing the rudders sounds good, or is there more electronics required




Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 16, 2018, 11:16:53 am
As we've discussed before, there are various ways to approach what you're
seeking to achieve, but my suggestion is a proven one which I know works well.

To start with go for a P102 which will give the means for you power distribution, bec
and fusing.  Then the P94.  That, as we've discussed, has two small switches within it to allow
a choice of tank steering or mixer. Personally I'd also put in a couple of P95 fuses to each
motor connection ( £5 each of a tenner for a double).
Whilst I've said before I don't know the Saturn system I'm sure it will
be fine.  The only other thing you'll need is a servo for the rudders.  Cornwall MBs
should be able to advise on compatible ones.

Batteries will complete the installation and you're good to go!

Have fun though, that is the most important thing :-))


Michael
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 16, 2018, 08:53:34 pm
Thanks for the help Michael


Got a way forward now and the ability to change steering techniques.


Thanks again for the help will have to post on its maiden voyage


Steve
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 17, 2018, 08:06:09 am


Thanks again for the help will have to post on its maiden voyage


Steve


Yes, do that Steve,  look forward to seeing it :-))
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Smyster on February 22, 2018, 12:19:56 pm
P94 and P107 power board ordered today and was told would land tomorrow, quick. Also ordered battery from the component shop as well, 12v 10ah to help towards ballast.
Looks like the new P107 board has the fuses and on/off switch now included, spent more than I first planned but all looks good to play around with different set ups.

Cheers All for the advice
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Butts on February 22, 2018, 03:24:42 pm
Excellent news :-))   

The delivery time promise does not surprise me, they're always very quick.

Must admit I'd not seen the P107 before, sounds good, you always learn something :} .

Keep us in touch with developments :-))
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Hande on February 24, 2018, 08:44:47 am
I am building my first tug, based on Billngs Neddie.
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,53761.0.html (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,53761.0.html)


I donít pretend I can give you advice, as I havenít sailed once, yet.
But oh, have I received advice on this forum!

If you are interested, section about electronics is about page three.
I went for action electronics, lead battery, Taranis openTx programmable radio, kort props.
escs are meant for cars (reverse, ABS), recommended by my hobby shop keeper, a serious boat modeller - reduced price helped %)


Having persistent problem with becker rudders. the sub-rudder turning pin doesnít work well. I may have trouble with them, later.

Went to the Haydock park convention last year and came home with the Action ĒNoisy thingĒ. anticipating a lot of fun with it :}


Iím looking forward to seeing pics of your build!


Hande
Title: Re: Advice on a newbie first tug build
Post by: Hande on February 24, 2018, 08:49:08 am
... plus motors are geared down 6:1
and I will go tank steering. Dry-tried it already and works nice.
cheers, Hande
Title: Newbie setting up tug electrics
Post by: Smyster on March 01, 2018, 02:17:15 pm
Hi All


Just after a bit of advice or thoughts before I ring the component shop about my Billings SMIT Nederland electrics
This is a first new build and it has not yet touched water

Ordered the following parts from the component shop a P107 power board, its a new one with built in BEC and on off switch, a P94 mixer speed controller and a 12v 10A SLA battery.

At first I had a faulty P94 which they replaced straight away very quickly as one side for the motor was not working now works, tested today when it landed and done what it should. The other issue is the power board/motors, the motors are just marked RS 550-SH and made in China and came with the boat.

As its a mixer unit when you steer puts the motors on so as to spin on the spot and in mode 3 for tugs, issue is when I do this there seems to be a bit of pulsing from the motors with blue flashing that can be seen in the rear of the motor. I then blew the 25A fuse on the power board and at that the micro switch stopped working small wisp of smoke, replaced the fuse with a 20a and the board is now permanently on shown by the 2 LED one for each group the switch now longer works, I did also put a 20a fuse on each of the motor +ve lines. Checked all wiring and correct.
Just wondering if anyone else has a similar set up and should the motors pulse and flash as described and is this likely to be the problem that has caused damage to the power board, motors not compatible.

Just out at the moment with wife and kids before 12hr nights so no chance to ring until tomorrow for an uninterrupted chat hopefully there back at school/work tomorrow lol.


Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Martin [Admin] on March 01, 2018, 02:52:06 pm
 
Topic renamed and posts merged   :-))
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on March 01, 2018, 03:45:45 pm
Hande


Excellent effort on you Neddy, great build thread, and real attention to detail, mines just hand painted and was a part started kit I bought off ebay, so somethings I couldn't alter, the electrics have cost a lot more than the boat, same as buying the missing fittings, I would be giving myself a 7/10 yours is a very neat job. An 8 year old just rushing to get on the water, fancy the Billings Fairmount Alpine to take my time on and build just worried about the frame on plank build.
I painted in the SMIT Finland scheme but son wanted to name Nederland as it has a flag lol. Can be changed at a later date,


Bought the P94 so I can try the tank steering, was bench running in mode 3 but now have the issue with damaging the power board, only thing left must be the motors as everything else purchased from the component shop.


KIt was missing the Becker Rudders, Pricey to replace and didn't realise you had to build them up after looking at your thread, didn't bother and thought I could control off the electronics.

Look forward to see the finished boat.


Steve
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on March 01, 2018, 03:55:29 pm
Hande


Excellent effort on you Neddy, great build thread, and real attention to detail, mines just hand painted and was a part started kit I bought off ebay, so somethings I couldn't alter, the electrics have cost a lot more than the boat, same as buying the missing fittings, I would be giving myself a 7/10 yours is a very neat job. An 8 year old just rushing to get on the water, fancy the Billings Fairmount Alpine to take my time on and build just worried about the frame on plank build.
I painted in the SMIT Finland scheme but son wanted to name Nederland as it has a flag lol. Can be changed at a later date,


Bought the P94 so I can try the tank steering, was bench running in mode 3 but now have the issue with damaging the power board, only thing left must be the motors as everything else purchased from the component shop.


KIt was missing the Becker Rudders, Pricey to replace and didn't realise you had to build them up after looking at your thread, didn't bother and thought I could control off the electronics.


Will have to check out the haydock convention as only a couple of hrs away, check my shifts.

Look forward to see the finished boat.


Steve
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Butts on March 01, 2018, 05:43:27 pm
I won't pretend I am knowledgeable about problems with the electronics and I think you are sensible talking to CS about your issues.
What I am more sure about is that it is not a compatibility problem with the motors.  I would be inclined to swap them though as they do sound to be suspect.  I did have a problem with pulsing 550s on one of my tugs and chose to replace them which cured the problem.  They are not expensive and to simply replace them will avoid any need to change couplings/mounts etc for different size motors.

Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Shipmate60 on March 01, 2018, 08:38:35 pm
The motors are a bit powerful on 12 volts (about 18000 rpm).
The battery seems rather large too.
These models if using the kit props only need 545 motors (about 5000 rpm).
This will reduce the power required and give her a slightly over scale speed.


Bob
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: oldiron on March 02, 2018, 03:33:47 am
As an assist, perhaps you'll find this thread of some assistance if you haven't already seen it:

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10387.0.html (http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,10387.0.html)

John
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Butts on March 02, 2018, 08:09:42 am
The motors are ab bit powerful on 12 volts (about 18000 rpm).
The battery seems rather large too.
These models if using the kit props only need 545 motors (about 5000 rpm).
This will reduce the power required and give her a slightly over scale speed.


Bob
I wouldn't disagree about the motors Bob, the advice to use the existing ones was based on trying to keep costs down.  Clearly it turns out there is a problem with the existing ones. I agree that a tug does not need high revving motors and the 545s do sound a sensible alternative.  I'm not sure about output shaft sizes etc?
As to the battery, if Steve has found room for it in the hull, it will provide much of the necessary ballast. I'm a big believer in using the batteries for that purpose and use very little other ballast.



Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on March 02, 2018, 02:20:44 pm
Cheers all, and Michael for keeping me right along the way lol.


Not sure why the board took the switch out on the Action P107 power board, should have just blown the 25A fuse, After digging out a couple of spare 20A fuses to use on the power board ran fine forward and reverse and turning port, turning starboard blew the 20A fuse twice, no more spares waiting for a delivery as cheaper than the little packs of 2 from the local garage. Starboard motor pulsed when turning on the mixer, Spoke to the Component shop and very helpful as usual so returning the board to be looked at and will source some motors from themselves, will look at the 545's thanks. The 550s do seem high revving on full throttle.
Was trying to keep the cost down but think the motors are inexpensive compared to the rest of the electrics so might as well change and see it through so hopefully get trouble free running. The electrics cost more but the 2 missing Becker rudders would have cost £50 that I dont have to buy now so saved on that.
Went for the big battery as Butts said to try and ballast the boat a bit and give a longer running time. As for the battery couldn't find any issues with mounting on the side, my old TL100R motorbikes battery was on the side, thought better to keep the center of gravity down. Hopefully some lead in the rear will balance it out when I get to ballast it, now need to buy some lead
After all this watch it sink or or capsize of its maiden voyage lol.
The link was helpful as going to have to look at waterproofing the large hatch area so something else to think on, and keep me busy


Was meant to be a cheap build as £80 ebay purchase for the part started kit but will be our work/play boat as some of the build finish wasn't brilliant on the deck that had already been constructed. A lot of fittings missing and changed for other parts so not a purists boat but 99% of people out there sailing wont know as my 8 year old son tells me. There's some fantastic neat Neddy builds on here got me rethinking and saving for another build.


Next look at will be in a few months on a deans marine ferry kit or the billing fairmount alpine which we really like the look of but plank on frame hull not sure on plastics construction over wood. Wifes gonna kill me.


Thanks Steve

Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Netleyned on March 02, 2018, 03:01:20 pm
Lead acid batteries are lighter at the top,
so when using it on it's side you will have to
either fit it off centre or add a bit of lead
alongside the top edge to compensate
the slight list with a central mount.
Ned
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on March 02, 2018, 07:37:59 pm
Cheers Ned


Didn't realise and already glued the compartment in, looks like its a bit of lead to balance out, now know for the other boat I'm building which i did notice it more on a revell flower corvette, never knew lights on top.


Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on March 05, 2018, 03:23:53 pm
Hi, All


Another question that google is not throwing much light on, any advice on sealing the hatch, had already been built to Billings plans and seeing I carried on with the build guessing I'm stuck with how it is. It is a large area does this model take on much water over the deck area, is it good enough as it is just screwed down maybe a thin bit of sealant ran along the inner deck edge to make a seal when screwed down. Have read about the lift out wheel house section warping so was thinking about braces on the underneath of that part.




Thanks Steve
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Butts on March 05, 2018, 04:10:11 pm
Smear Vaseline on the boat side of the hatch and then screw the hatch down.  Works fine on the hatches of my tugs.

An alternative to fastening down the hatch is to use small magnets as sold by Component Shop.  Screws work!

Some people raise the hatch off the deck, but I have not found it necessary.


Don't know the Neddie well enough to understand the second problem. Do you mean the superstructure or just the wheelhouse?  Did not think that was separate.

Michael
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: JimG on March 05, 2018, 06:52:38 pm
I split the large hatch in two. The front was made part of the deck and a coaming fitted that the superstructure fitted over. The rear hatch was made to screw down using 6 countersunk socket screws. As this would be rarely removed I used tape over the join and painted the tape the deck colour. Worked well until it poured during a 24 hour run and water got under the tape and lifted it. The rain was heavy enough that the water couldn't clear off the deck through the freeing ports and there was a few mm of standing water on the deck. The front coaming still kept the water out although the rear hatch did warp. After a 2 hour run when it came in to change the battery there was around two inches of water in the hull.
The deck had been covered with thin plasticard to cover up the open grained plywood provided. The original ply would have taken a lot of sealing and filler to get a smooth deck. I also made the superstructure from plasticard instead of the ply provided making the final finish easier.

Jim
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on March 05, 2018, 08:59:53 pm
Thanks All


Yes Michael meant the whole superstructure part you lift out, good tip on the vaseline will go down that route as already built now, if I was starting from scratch would have thought about something else like you mention Jim, not sure I want to chop it now its built but could be an option like you mention as will rarely need access like you say, on my next model which I will purchase new will spend a lot of time thinking it through and asking questions before jumping in, hopefully wont be long just to need to pick the model, have seen 2 need to make my mind up on but best get this on the water first.


Sorted me out again Cheers
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Smyster on May 10, 2018, 02:32:43 pm
Hi All


A little bit of time off as wife's had me decorating and other DIY tasks, built a bond so theres my testing ground  :D , also waiting for my power card to be returned from the component shop after blowing the on off switch, which landed last week.
Anyways the fault was traced to a faulty motor that was supplied with the kit so have replaced both of these with Mabuchi 555, my question is do I need to solder capacitors to the side of the cans from the pos side, seen pics of some boats with these on, if so what size do you guys use, many thanks


Steve
Title: Re: Symster's SMIT Nederland build
Post by: Butts on May 11, 2018, 10:40:10 am
Hi Steve,

Thought you'd gone quiet {-) .


The short answer is yes it is advisable to fit capacitors.  If you're using 2.4 ghz there is less likelihood of interference to your own boat.  You could though affect others on the pond using 27 or 40 mhz.

If you look on Component Shop they do RF kits for £1 each with instructions as to how to fit. Cornwall Model Boats also sell a similar kit.