Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Mess Deck: General Section => Chit-Chat => Topic started by: carlmt on May 08, 2018, 06:46:41 PM

Title: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: carlmt on May 08, 2018, 06:46:41 PM
As the topic title suggests.........it would appear that the current incumbent has moved on to pastures new already! (or, at least, gone back to his previous title...).

That didn't last long did it??????

New editor is a Mr Martyn Chorlton.............anyone know him?

Not a name that rings any bells with me - sorry!

CT
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 08, 2018, 06:51:39 PM
All explained here Carl:

http://www.modelboats.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=135581&p=1

Martyn Chorlton has been editor of Military Modelling magazine which has now closed.

It's all a bit unfortunate in some respects as Graham Ashby had made a good start at Model Boats but illness and other issues have prompted the changes.

Colin
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Stavros on May 08, 2018, 09:34:37 PM
Fair comment Colin BUT my personal MAIN WORRY is That Martyn Chorlton has allready been involved in the demise of one Magazine I Personally dont think this is a very good move at all....Time will tell




Dave
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 08, 2018, 09:49:53 PM
Military Modelling was originally slated to be closed a couple of years back but the management was persuaded to keep it going and Martyn was given the job as a freelance editor. It's not his fault that the magazine has gone under.

The basic problem was that although there was a lively forum the magazine simply wasn't selling enough copies to stay financially viable. People were happy to participate in the free forum but didn't buy the magazine so the result was inevitable. People always want something for nothing unfortunately.

There is a basic assumption on the part of many people that stuff on the internet is generally free but that isn't actually the case. There are always costs and these come out in various ways. Sometimes they are covered by advertising, sometimes by the sale of your data or sometimes, as on Mayhem, by the owner subsidising the site.

People get cross about facilities being withdrawn but forget that you get what you pay for and if you pay for nothing then you cannot complain if a facility is withdrawn as the people who relied on Photobucket for third part hosting have painfully discovered.

Colin
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: unbuiltnautilus on May 08, 2018, 10:24:19 PM
I will have to confess to having stopped purchasing the boat mags about two years ago. Marine Modelling had become a shadow of its former self, while I was not getting anything new from Model Boats magazine, month to month.
One of our members brought the latest copy of Model Boats to our last meeting, blimey, what an engrossing read it has become, Dragonforce/Dragonflite development and design to production, interesting illustrations, articles etc. Whatever has happened, I hope it continues. Must get a subscription up :-))
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: phil_parker on May 16, 2018, 06:44:19 PM
Fair comment Colin BUT my personal MAIN WORRY is That Martyn Chorlton has allready been involved in the demise of one Magazine I Personally dont think this is a very good move at all....Time will tell
Dave
There are lots of reasons for a magazine to cease publication, many outside the editors control. As Colin has said, readers can simply drift away to the web or even away altogether. The publishers may simply decide that a title is no longer sufficiently profitable or fits their portfolio. Advertisers could close down and stop paying for the space on the page.

One less discussed aspect is that it is proving harder and harder to find people willing and able to actually write the articles. As an editor, I spend a lot of my time trying to persuade people to put finger to keyboard, even though they will be paid for their work. There are loads of people who have an idea what they would like to read, but will they write it? No chance. Even though word processors, digital cameras and e-mail make the process easier than it's ever been, it's all too much effort.

Ultimately though, and editor can only publish what they have. Model Railway magazines get around this by employing in-house staff. Model boat magazines don't sell enough to afford this luxury.

Graham did a superb job with Model Boats in his time at the helm. I can't see why Martyn shouldn't carry on his good work, but only if he has the material to work with. If not, the mag will close and with it will go the chance to engage people on the newstand. Forever.

Would this matter? I think it would. You might love Mayhem on the web, but if Martin decided to chuck it in, what would happen to the site? Is there anyone else willing to put as much time and money into it?

Model mags are like model shops. Use them or lose them.
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 16, 2018, 07:21:24 PM
Phil is quite right in the points he is making. If you want something out then you have to put the effort in. Forums are useful while they are operating but they are essentially ephemeral and can vanish at the touch of a button as has the Military Modelling forum with all the years of information it contained. The same applies to Mayhem, there is a huge resource of practical model boating information and advice on this site and it is 100% owned by Martin. If, forbid, he should fall under a bus or become incapacitated I don't think there is any plan in  place to ensure that the site will continue and so all of that would be lost - and indeed will be lost at some point in the future as things currently stand.

I have heard complaints that magazines 'cost too much' but probably from people who would think nothing of spending more than the cost of a single issue on a couple of pints down the pub and if you take out a subscription then the cost per issue reduces significantly.

You only have to look at websites like the Magazine Exchange to see that there is a constant demand for old magazines and their contents. As printed items they are still available, either as hard copy or because people may have saved particular articles so there is a continuing information resource that can never be matched by online forums.

People post build logs on forums but then the forum may fail or their images are blocked by Photobucket etc. so all the hard won information and expertise is lost. That doesn't happen with printed matter where the material is much more likely to remain in the public domain.

Food for thought.

Colin
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: roycv on May 16, 2018, 08:54:20 PM
Hi I would like to echo unbuilt the magazine really has moved on not just a cosmetic change but the article on Dragon Force yacht design was first rate.  Well done Graham a very good achievement in 6 months.  If we are moving on again so beit.  Saw John Cundell the other week and he was full of praise for the magazine under Graham.
Look forward to seeing what comes next!
regards Roy
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 16, 2018, 09:00:31 PM
Glad to hear that John is OK Roy. Has he moved home yet? He was talking of downsizing a little while back and Dave Wooley and I were involved in transferring his collection of model boating magazines to the Waterways Museum at Ellesmere port who offered to take them but who I suspect haven't done much with them to date.

Colin
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: roycv on May 16, 2018, 09:31:01 PM
Hi Colin myself and Malcolm collected some of his workshop equipment which he kindly donated to the club.  The move is imminent but he is not going far.
We had a club auction within the week and stuff has now gone to new homes and back into use again.
regards Roy
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on May 17, 2018, 01:12:09 AM

Hopefully he will take a leaf out of Scale Modeller International, which includes a boat segment, always has more pages than model boats, the so called No.1, now the only one, and ditch the ongoing padding articles. You now, "how to build etc etc part 23 etc etc" and irrelevant ancient information such as pulse radio sets.
He had instituted positive changes to Military Modelling.

Doesn't attract 'modern' modellers to our cause and is irrelevant and of no value to them.
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Stan on May 17, 2018, 10:26:12 AM
We may not know the new editor but I am sure we would all like to wish him well in his new position. Like all magazines it needs input from the model boat world to survive. I have to agree the quality of the publications  is now very good  so lets keep on renewing our subscriptions and make sure the magazine will be about for many years to come.

Stan.
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: phil_parker on May 17, 2018, 12:01:37 PM
Hopefully he will take a leaf out of Scale Modeller International, which includes a boat segment, always has more pages than model boats, the so called No.1, now the only one, and ditch the ongoing padding articles. You now, "how to build etc etc part 23 etc etc" and irrelevant ancient information such as pulse radio sets.
He had instituted positive changes to Military Modelling.
Doesn't attract 'modern' modellers to our cause and is irrelevant and of no value to them.
Personally, I find the vintage articles fascinating - and I bet they help shift copies from people who get all misty-eyed about old models. It helps that they are well written and photographed.

Presumably though, you'll be inundating the editor with articles to attract "modern modelers", whatever that means.
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: raflaunches on May 17, 2018, 12:47:03 PM
Well I’m looking forward to seeing the new editor’s work, I’ve enjoyed every editor’s contributions since I started in 2003 and it’s always exciting to see what new ideas they bring. I’m in the process of writing two build articles for the magazine, my article about the Mayhem at Wicksteed 2017 was my first attempt at writing and I don’t think I did a too bad a job of it- well there was very little editing!!!
Whilst I’m not particularly interested in the old radio gear and motors, etc, I know there is a big following in vintage and I have bought several ‘vintage’ boats because I like the look of them- I would not have ever known that they existed without reading about them in Model Boats.
I was a subscriber to Military Modelling and I enjoyed the magazine but like what’s been mentioned before it’s only as good as the articles being provided. Welcome aboard Martyn  :-))
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 17, 2018, 01:01:05 PM
A while back I edited some special issues of Model Boats on various themes. For budgetary reasons they needed to recycle historic material with which a lot of today's readers were likely to be unfamiliar with. They actually sold quite well and the archive material was very well received by newer readers as well as older ones on a nostalgia trip!

Publishers are in business to make a profit so their magazines will address the market as they see it to maximise sales. About four years ago a major national analysis of magazine purchasing habits indicated that the average age of a Model Boats magazine buyer was 65, possibly slightly more as purchases were often made by women on behalf of their husbands. This is probably not too far off the average age of Mayhem participation I suspect and certainly ties in with the people you see at the major shows.

At the moment this gives a reasonably solid readership and the magazine makes a profit although the situation is obviously one of managed decline as people grow old and there is a general move away from hard copy publications to web based information.

Efforts have indeed been made to identify an upcoming generation to take the place of the expiring greybeards but there truth seems to be that there is very little there on the model boating side from a commercial viewpoint. This of course is reflected by the chronic inability of clubs to attract youngsters into the hobby, very difficult when there are much more interesting things to capure their attention.

As Phil says, magazines can only publish the material that people are prepared to write and this imposes a degree of constraint on their content. In days gone by the MBBA in its various sections together with the RYA accounted for much of the material published. As MPBA Scale secretary back in the 80s I had a monthly MPBA Scale Section column for example and before that Dave Wooley had a regular column on Fast Electrics. All this has gone now as the associations show little interest in promoting themselves in the modelling press and seem content to just occupy their own little niches with the honorable exception of Roger Stollery who does make an effort on the yachting side and Craig Dickson on behalf of BMPRS.

Luckily the magazine does have a 'stable' of reliable and popular contributors supplemented by excellent pieces from occasional or one off contributors but this material does tend to revolve around the core model boating market and interests with a weighting towards working scale or semi scale models.

It is easy to say 'I'd like more of this or more of that' but from the editor's chair it isn't quite so simple. Remember that Model Boats, as are most similar niche magazines, is produced by a full time editor and a half time designer and that's it! No reporters or feature writers other than modellers who write articles for rather small sums of money.

Colin
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Peter Fitness on May 17, 2018, 11:17:11 PM
the average age of a Model Boats magazine buyer was 65
Colin


I always knew I was above average %)


Peter.
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: RAAArtyGunner on May 18, 2018, 12:31:12 AM



Ah the voice of experience thunders aloud. :-)) :-)) :-))
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Klunk on May 18, 2018, 01:27:01 AM
if it helps im 51!!!!
and I write articles for the club mag, plus i've had recipes published in books! also done magazine editing, run 2 forums, admin for 3 face book groups, plus being secretary of the local MBC, was a school guvner for 10 years, was on the LEA as well, also help out at Mayhem occasionally!
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: SteamboatPhil on May 18, 2018, 10:45:25 AM
Wow Klunk think what you could have achieved if you did joined up writing  {-) {-) {-) {-)
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: roycv on May 18, 2018, 11:17:17 AM
Ahhh! joined up writing, led to many a young lad's undoing.  Those little notes to young ladies, that naughty billet doux those unguarded moments put on paper.  Thank god for emails and word processors, where you can type it all out, read it, regret it and delete it.  Cursive script has a lot to answer for, mainly because it is in your handwriting!  Can't tell who typed this, I shall deny it.
X
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 18, 2018, 12:40:47 PM
Was that a kiss Roy.....?
Colin
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: roycv on May 18, 2018, 01:08:59 PM
I was trying to remain anonymous, now you've blown it!
Roy
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Colin Bishop on May 18, 2018, 01:21:52 PM
The kiss???
Colin
Title: Re: Another new editor for Model Boats magazine?
Post by: Tug Fanatic on May 18, 2018, 02:11:27 PM
Do you two need to get a room?
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Klunk on May 18, 2018, 05:46:48 PM
hhhmmmmm. i did write several poems that were published as well.
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: roycv on May 18, 2018, 05:55:09 PM
Perhaps I need a chat room, I feel so embarrassed, Aw shucks! (what sort of poetry Klunk?)
expectantly yours,
R
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Klunk on May 18, 2018, 06:05:36 PM
general stuff. it's in 2 books but under a pseudonym
.
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Pufango on November 04, 2018, 08:50:00 PM
I think Model Engineer magazine is going down hill big style.Hardly any of the content has anything to do with models anymore and the recent cover photos  ,well unless you know  the magazine you would have no idea what it was about! I know it's not a model boat item but they sometimes have build articles on live steam boat engines.I know i have an occasional column (The Wright Way ) focusing on the beginners engines etc. I do believe it’s up to the editor to provide a good magazine .They don’t do it for free!Just  wanted to get it off my chest.Best regards Tony Wright.
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 06, 2018, 03:53:36 AM
I don't read Model Engineer, it's way out of my league, bur my brother-in-law, George Punter, an English ex-pat now living in Bundaberg, Queensland, is a frequent contributor. One of his recent series was on the construction of a Saunderson and Mills vintage tractor. He earned enough money from the series of articles to fund a trip to the UK, complete with said tractor, which he entered in the Model Engineer exhibition winning one of the top awards. Sadly the MEE seems to have gone by the wayside after many, many years.


Peter.
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: phil_parker on November 06, 2018, 02:10:00 PM
Sadly the MEE seems to have gone by the wayside after many, many years.
Really? The London exhibition is terrific. A really wide variety of models and popular with visitors too. 

One issue for all the model engineering shows is getting people to enter things. I know from talking to organisers it's a struggle even to get people to display things, never mind enter the competitions. My guess is that the engineers want everything done for them by someone else. Hobby's don't work like that, either those involved do stuff or it dies. I have a feeling that model boating could be heading down this road...
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 06, 2018, 02:29:16 PM
A bit of confusion there I think. Peter is presumably referring to the original Model Engineer Exhibition (MEX) which sadly does indeed seem to be defunct having been last held at Brooklands in 2016. This is quite separate from the London Model Engineering Exhibition staged by Meridienne in January (who are of course also responsible for next Saturday's International Model Boat Show.
Colin
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: phil_parker on November 06, 2018, 03:44:43 PM
Thanks Colin. I had the wrong exhibition. The London one is still superb though, and I'm looking forward to the boats this weekend. Some late nights beating a new kit into shape for appearing on the KMBC stand.
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Subculture on November 06, 2018, 07:09:11 PM
The original Model Engineers Exhibition had an axe taken to it just before the millenium. As I recall they had two in one year- 1999, the first was in the traditional January at Olympia, and a second show in December at Alexandra Palace. After that it stopped, and resurfaced at Ascot, then Sandown a few years later, only now it was a much smaller show and only featured top end hardcore Model engineering, which was a huge mistake IMO.

The show that now takes place at Alexandra Palace started off in Picketts Lock, and although a decent enough show, it was considered very much the poor relation. I don't think it's ever matched the original ME show, but there we are- beggars can't be choosers, and at least we still have something.

http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/MEX_axed.html (http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/MEX_axed.html)
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 06, 2018, 07:47:00 PM
That's a fair report on the MEX.

I was first invited to act as a judge at the 1985 MEX at Wembley Conference Centre and continued to do so for 31 years missing just one. At what now appears to have been the final MEX in 2016 I was the last and sole Marine Competition Judge with some assistance from one of the engineering people.

Over that long period we saw some wonderful work from top class marine modellers and for much of the time I provided some or all of the Exhibition reports in Model Boats magazine. During the heyday of the exhibition the judges were treated very well by the organisers and one of the highlights was a slap up lunch in Alexandra Palace with a three course meal with wine in a wonderful dining room with frescoes on the wall. Truly memorable. Perhaps the nadir came at Sandown Park one year when a bunch of hungry judges were left with nothing to eat until one of the very embarrassed editors managed to produce some very ordinary sandwiches from a local convenience store. How are the mighty fallen!

In the latter days the judges were left to sort things out themselves under the leadership of Mike Law of the SMEE with virtually no support or interest from the sponsors but it became a labour of love and we were determined to keep up standards to the last which I think we did. The MEX judges were always 100% dedicated to maintaining the very highest standards and over those years there was virtually no criticism of the decisions made in the marine classes and the awards which I think is a very fine record. The MEX was always held to be the 'Gold Standard' of model making and model engineering competition and I have been very proud to have been a part of it.

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Subculture on November 06, 2018, 09:09:00 PM
You won't see it return. It takes little effort to drop a fire, but a huge amount to build it back up again.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 06, 2018, 09:45:57 PM
I don't expect to. It was on life support for years and a shadow of its old self. But the glory days were good times though.

Shows are disappearing at an alarming rate now though. There will be nothing left soon as the modelling community is no longer big enough to support events at the major venues.

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Subculture on November 06, 2018, 09:59:19 PM
My experience of many modelling arenas these days is that there are far too many individuals who find good reason to do nothing.

The days when large venues could be filled may be behind us, but participation in the hobby can still be encouraged.
Title: Re: .... new editor for Model Boats magazine
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 07, 2018, 05:52:03 AM
A bit of confusion there I think. Peter is presumably referring to the original Model Engineer Exhibition (MEX) which sadly does indeed seem to be defunct having been last held at Brooklands in 2016.
Colin


Correct Colin, my brother-in-law took his model tractor to Brooklands in 2016.


Peter.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Neil on November 07, 2018, 10:10:31 AM

I only ever went once, and that was purely because the local club had laid on a coach.


I found it both a wonderful experience in the main and also such a variety of "models" to view.


however, what put me off ever going again was the snobbery of those in the higher echelons of the modelling sphere.I found no one willing to chat about their beautiful model steam vehicles, and with their very well built ships seemed to to think that, by showing folders of their builds that all questions should have been answered.........some just don't or didn't realise that you just wanted to chat in general, rather than to probe their building techniques........


I feel that our hobby is for sharing with others, not keeping your knowledge to yourselves......….and this is why such forums as mayhem is a god send to all ship/boat modellers.


that one visit put me off travelling to far flung places to see shows, and TBH Blackpool and Elsmere port are/were the only two I would go too...….purely because of the elitism shown at MEX, all those years ago,


Sadly though it doesn't stop there. some years ago I went to the Southport lifeboat show at the new venue, to show ff the "new" Liverpool class lifeboat I had developed for Dave Metcalf. a chap came to look at the model, and asked all sorts of questions about it, and I happily answered his inquiries. I had seen that he had a beautiful  working model of a steam lifeboat that I had always fancied trying...…….I went over to him as he had the top off showing internals to another modeller. As I approached he quickly put the top on the boat, and when I asked if I could look at the internals he refused point blank.over the next 3 years he refused twice more, even though he wanted me to get a model of the Ann Letitia Russell at reduced price on mates rates...……


this is the sort of behaviour that does our modelling brethren no favours at all, and happily I am glad the way I am...….I am arrogant, bolshy and don't like idiots, but I am helpful and proud of it, and I like to think that anyone can come to me for help, and not be ignored. O0
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 07, 2018, 10:22:05 AM
Perhaps it's just you Neil... ;)
There are awkard people in all walks of life, not just at exhibitions.
You only went to the MEX once and made up your mind on that single visit. I have been going for 40 years or more and in my experience the top class modellers have been unfailingly polite, helpful and friendly and modest about theur achievements to boot. Yes there are the occasional prima donnas but they are far and few between and if they don't get th awards they think they deserve are rarely seen again.

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: roycv on November 07, 2018, 12:57:02 PM
Hello all, I feel compelled to respond as I have had two model yachts in the competitions at MEX.  I have two bronze medals for which I am very pleased.  I love talking about my models so usually end up with a sore throat.  My experience of MEX is that the builders were rarely present but could be found if present, by a steward.

However I was approached by someone at an outside event who quizzed me in detail about the construction of my yacht which was a static to working conversion, with follow up emails.  I was therefore very surprised to see a review of this yacht (kit) in the other model boat magazine by this person, who without seeing my yacht and having such long conversations would never have built the boat.

Likewise I did some free building to a model boat and donated £20s worth of bits for a schoolboy (parents present).  I took them all to a club visit and brought with me a RC boat to sail.  I think their consciences was salved by giving me a bottle of wine, unfortunately I knew much about wine at the time and judged it borderline cooking!

Never heard another word!

So I look at conversations with strangers in a slightly jaundiced way now, fortunately I have many friends who are welcome to chat for as long as they like.

Regards Roy


Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: phil_parker on November 07, 2018, 04:21:03 PM
I don't expect to. It was on life support for years and a shadow of its old self. But the glory days were good times though.

Shows are disappearing at an alarming rate now though. There will be nothing left soon as the modelling community is no longer big enough to support events at the major venues.

Colin
Not all modelling communities are shrinking too small to put on shows. Any weekend of the year, you'll find dozens of model railway shows. It might be that there are more railway modellers, almost certainly so, but also that within the hobby there are more people willing to go to the trouble of organising an event. I've spent a lot of time at ME shows and listened to several people bemoan the lack of them ,as well as criticizing the event they are at. I always suggest they put on their own "superior" event but they recoil in horror at the idea.

If people in a hobby are content to sit back and let someone else do all the work, the hobby is likely to die out.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 07, 2018, 05:40:46 PM
Phil,

I think you are being a bit unrealistic here. Model Railways are many, many times more popular than model boats and attract a wider age range from what I have seen at multi model shows. The railway hobby supports a far larger commercial sector too whereas model boat trading in the UK is almost a cottage industry with no really major players.

When I attend model boating shows such as Warwick or the joint model engineering shows I find I appear to be a fair bit younger than most of the people on the stands and visitor and I turned 70 this year. At this age you don't have the energy you had when you were younger or the physical strength or the willingness to drive long distances and the odds are that you have one or more chronic medical conditions to boot!
Furthermore, modelling may no longer be your main interest and there are other things you want to do while you still can, in the case of my wife and myself it has been travelling to tick things of our bucket lists. So in my case, whilst I am still very interested in building models I am no longer enthusiastic about continuing to be involved in the wider aspects of the hobby as I was when I was younger and spent most of my spare time organising regattas, serving on the MPBA, and promoting scale course designs as well as managing to actually build boats as well. Been there, done that and moved on.
I would never complain about events that continue to be put on as I am well aware of all the work that goes into a successful one and the people who are willing to do so are to be congratulated, likewise the clubs and their members who give their energy and time to supporting them. But as far as model boating is concerned, and I think to a lesser extent other branches of model making, the well is increasingly beginning to run dry as older people leave the hobby and are not replaced.
There is nothing to be done about this in the longer term except to support events that are still going and not to complain if the entry fees are put up to keep them viable. Even now the costs of entry are way below what you could expect to pay at other public attractions as anyone who has considered visiting a National Trust property recently will be well aware.

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: phil_parker on November 07, 2018, 06:14:38 PM
It's a vicious circle. Railways have always done a lot to promote the hobby and the result is an audience large enough to support a trade presence. OK, it's always been a more popular hobby compared to engineering and boat, but if you look back many years or so, not that much more.

I'm reminded of being involved with a large general show locally taking place over the August bank holiday. My role was with the railway exhibits but that meant going to meetings for the whole hobby section. The show was huge and attracted many families. Part of the hobby area, in a posh cattle shed included a model boat section complete with a pool make of hay bales and waterproof sheet. It worked well, but then the people running the boat section decided that providing a pool was too much work and that the main organisers (an events company) should provide it for them instead. Not unreasonably, the company decided that they didn't have the knowledge or manpower to lay on a pond, so the model boats became a small subsidiary of the engineering hall. With no pool, the same people decided they didn't want to turn up any more.
Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't want to simply roll over and say the hobby will be dead in a few years and there is nothing that can be done about it. Look abroad and you find a far more vibrant hobby with shows the size of which the UK modeller can only dream of attending. At least one of those (Modelspoor) is put on by a group of committed amateurs. They may have the advantage of the peculiar local idea that exhibition venues should be rented at a modest price to these sort of events, but someone still has to organize the thing.

To be honest, I can still build boats and sail them. If the hobby is dead in a couple of years, that won't stop me. With the shows all gone, there won't be time spent listening to "modellers" grumbling about the event they are visiting (one recently moaned about having to go to a show in the same way you would moan about root canal work) and how things aren't as good as they used to be, while refusing to part with any money to the trade but expecting sellers to still turn up at events.

Model boating is an attractive hobby to lots of people. There are still shows, and an excellent magazine on the news stands. There is trade, including RTR models to get people started. Look at the Ally Pally ME show - loads of families wandering around. At Warwick there is a popular junior section each day. We just need to capitalise on this. Support shows, support Model Boats and support the trade and who knows what might happen?


Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 07, 2018, 06:45:40 PM
Phil,
The hobby isn't going to die in a couple of years but we are in a period of managed decline purely due to the demographics. The number of shows is declining at a worrying rate because they are no longer financially viable. Venue costs are fixed or rising but trader participation and footfall is reducing. The recent Blackpool show was considered to be a success but still made a small loss.

In my view, over the last few years there have been too many shows when the sensible answer would have been to consolidate but each lot of organisers have insisted on their independence with the result that they have all become financially vulnerable.

It was obvious years ago that the two London shows. the MEX and the MEE could have merged to the benefit of both but now one is defunct and the other, despite what has been said on here and elsewhere, is declining. It could have been bolstered had it taken on board the  respected MEX gold standard competition.

Up North, we have Haydock and Blackpool close together geographically and timewise but still competing. Lots of people go to one or the other but not both.
Down South the wonderful Brighton multi modelling show has gone due to high venue costs. We still have Midhurst but that is more of a regional show although long may it prosper.

Beale Park near Reading has a fantastic venue but the owners tried to squeeze too much from participants and visitors and has died the death.
As far as model boating is concerned a successful show needs to have good trader representation, high footfall and ideally somewhere to float your boat. How many now achieve this?

Traders need to at least break even to make it worth attending and gate prices need to be pitched to attract footfall. Club stands should be free and actively encouraged. This traditional financial model appears to be breaking down, maybe due to high venue costs and declining footfall. There is no easy answer to this but it is interesting to note that Deans Marine and Mobile Marine Models are mutually supporting events on their own premises which appear to be quite successful in keeping costs down and promoting their products. In this sense they are responding to the realities of the situation.

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: phil_parker on November 07, 2018, 06:59:02 PM
Demographics aren't killing the hobby, there are still lots of people around as this graph from the ONS shows:
(http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160108132314/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/figure3s_tcm77-292369.png)It's not lack of bodies that is hurting the hobby, but lack of new bodies coming in to the hobby. If we want new people in the hobby, the hobby has to go and grab them. Other hobbies manage it - I'm reliably told that craft-based digital TV channels are the most profitable on TV so people will take part in craft based pastimes.

I give up. I'm obviously stupid in wanting our hobby to survive. I'll go back to making things for me and accept that it's all over for the rest of the UK (not Europe as mentioned earlier).
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 07, 2018, 07:15:49 PM
Yes, but the young males who used to be the mainstay of model boating are now into other leisure interests which offer more immediate gratification such as video games, apps and social media etc. Plus these days people do prefer to buy things rather than make them. Just the way it is. Youngsters these days aren't terribly interested in sticking things together anymore. Can you blame them?

Looking at the model railway displays I have seen in recent years it is clear that the participants buy their engines and rolling stock etc. They don't make them and there is a big industry geared up to giving them what they want. Their creative abilities appear to be confined to scenery rather than the models themselves.

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Liverbudgie on November 07, 2018, 08:25:49 PM
The Telford IPMS show is on this weekend as well, it will interesting to see what happens there. The age range is generally from around -5 to 90+, young persons are encouraged to build models as well, with the models, glues and paints being suppled by Airfix.

The entry cost this year are, I think £12 and parking is around £8 -£10 but, that doesn't put people off, far from it; a truly international affair.

LB

Do I need my shades BTW Mr M?
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: KitS on November 07, 2018, 08:48:24 PM
The Telford IPMS show, somewhat grandly entitled 'Scale Model World' these days, has been getting larger and larger ever since the event moved to Telford many years ago. I've been attending the annual 'IPMS Nationals', as it used to be called, since the mid '60s and it's grown steadily ever since those days.

Like all modelling hobbies the average age of IPMS modellers has steadily got older and older, but there are numbers of younger plastic modellers heavily into the hobby as well. Perhaps the fact that 'Airfix kits' as many people call them, are considerably cheaper to buy than model railway items, or model boats as well?
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 07, 2018, 08:54:30 PM
Yes, I would agree that plastic kits are more accessible and the range of subjects would seem to have more appeal to younger people than the sort of exhibits you will see at Warwick.
I did visit the show myself a couple of years ago and was impressed with the standards of painting and finish and in the imagination shown in the exhibits but it wasn't really my sort of modelling so perhaps that's where the problem lies! Us model boaters are too traditional!

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: raflaunches on November 07, 2018, 09:05:48 PM
A recent thing with Airfix type model kits is the way they fit and look- how many cut their teeth on Airfix kits which fitted terribly and detail was either non existent or incorrect? Airfix when they were bought by Hornby went through a massive shake up and actually purchased a LIDAR set and went out of their way to retool most of their model tools. Now they are considered one of the best model kit producers out there and seem to be getting stronger.
Now when I was a kid (not that long ago!) I was quite content at correcting and modifying kits to suit my tastes but I think that the Airfix of today have realised that A the modeller of today wants something they can build without any fit problems, B the correct shape and detail- the internet has helped massively in this way, and C something fairly cheap for the quality.
I build kits and I scratch build and I think it has to do with my interests and my willingness to get what I want even if I have to build it myself from nothing, my JEngO is amazed at my model making skills (I consider myself to be average-ish) and I thinks it due to schools not teaching basic woodwork. I wasn’t taught this at school- it had been cut from my school’s schedule a long time ago but all the equipment was still there including a furnace and forge! With this generation getting interested in engineering via apprenticeships this might now change and give us modellers some new youngsters to have a go.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Stan on November 07, 2018, 09:16:58 PM
Having been to Telford and local I P M S shows also model railways in the north footfall does not seemed to have dropped off. Admission charges seem not to be a problem. Both groups seem to spend lots of cash to enjoy there hobbies.The future for model boats is to incorporate other disciplines and rename the event to a model show. Sadly with out this change and the understanding that admission charges must cover the costs of hiring the venue. Sadly with out changes some shows may disappear.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Subculture on November 08, 2018, 09:49:38 AM
I've personally never gravitated towards shows that aim at a single sector of the hobby. I've been to one or two, but rarely felt compelled to return. I much prefer multi sector shows, as you get a cross-pollination of ideas which can inspire alternative ways of doing things. Model boating is rarely at the cutting edge, it's nearly always model aircraft that lead the technology, much as in 1:1 engineering.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Neil on November 08, 2018, 12:24:10 PM
Perhaps it's just you Neil... ;)

Colin





nope...…..not at all, Colin...……..I can get on with anyone who treats me with respect, and I will treat them with the same respect also…….what I do not like is the person who treats me with no respect or like an idiot, and then, like Stavros and a few others on here, I don't mince my words and give both barrels for that is all they deserve and understand.


only yesterday I had someone message me out of the blue on Facebook asking me if I would repair a model lifeboat for them because they knew nothing about model making......so, (obviously not from this site as we all have some general knowledge of the hobby) they were relying upon my  great expertise built up over 58 years to solve their problem for them...


I told them that a simple repair was not always simple and sometimes, because of the way it was constructed and painted in the past by someone else, might end up as more than just a simple repair, and I sadly didn't "do repairs", but if they wanted to go ahead I could pass them on to someone who might do it...…so could they send me photos of the model and the damage...…...you wanna know what they said.....




quote...."thank you, we will try to send you some photos in the next few weeks"...…….now that is why I get grumpy and behave like an old bar steward to people that don't show respect.....so, I'm not grumpy unless someone makes me grumpy, and then I speak my mind...…..and if they don't like me being grumpy and can't take the truth......then treat me with respect in the first place...…….


you, as a judge at the MEX would see one side of the coin with exhibitors, them knowing that they and their model needs to make a good impression whereas talking to some of the general public asking them what they might conceive as yet another inane question, is the other side.........and ignorance towards public viewers does exist amongst exhibitors, and even you cannot deny that.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: jaymac on November 08, 2018, 12:34:19 PM
and another one bites the dust
http://www.bristolmodelengineers.co.uk/Exhibition/exhib.htm (http://www.bristolmodelengineers.co.uk/Exhibition/exhib.htm)
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: TheLongBuild on November 08, 2018, 01:18:28 PM
and another one bites the dust
http://www.bristolmodelengineers.co.uk/Exhibition/exhib.htm (http://www.bristolmodelengineers.co.uk/Exhibition/exhib.htm)


But might be back in 2020
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 08, 2018, 05:07:05 PM
Neil,

I agree that you always get people like you describe and who assume that you are providing an (often free) public service and they get my goat as well. As part of my connection with Model Boats magazine and its Forum I get to deal with all sorts of direct enquiries from readers some of which are indeed terse and even rude. They tend to get short shrift in a polite sort of way, usually by being pointed in the direction of doing a bit of research for themselves instead of expecting us to provide free tutorials or instant answers. But in general enquirers are polite and appreciative of help given and advice on avenues to explore for themselves.

With regard to the MEX, except on judging day I always preferred to leave my badge off and just talk to people generally, not always revealing my position. Certainly on judging day we never got into conversation with the exhibitors while judging was taking place and any exibitors who were hovering around trying to overhear us were chased away sharpish. Once the awards had been made then no problem. In earlier days there was in fact a separate judging day at which neither the exhibitors nor the public were present but that got a bit expensive for the organisers. Most people are generally nice, some aren't. I'm just sorry that that one experience many years ago put you off for ever and that you have missed so much as a result.

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Neil on November 08, 2018, 05:20:17 PM
Neil,


They tend to get short shrift in a polite sort of way, usually by being pointed in the direction of doing a bit of research for themselves instead of expecting us to provide free tutorials or instant answers.


 I'm just sorry that that one experience many years ago put you off for ever and that you have missed so much as a result.

Colin



That's where you and I differ, Colin...………….you are far too polite, and i'm just a crusty old sod...…...always have been and probably always will be.....


it wasn't the actual exhibitors at the show either, as I can deal with ignorance in my own way, that put me off going again...…...I actually enjoyed the models themselves every one of them...…….it was just the long drag down there from Fleetwood in a coach with people from the club, that half of them I didn't like anyway......and then waiting for two idiots from the club that were an hour and a half late getting back to the coach...…….because they had gone to a restaurant for a meal before coming back to the coach for another 5 hour plus journey home..


if the exhibition was in Manchester, Liverpool or even at the NEC Birmingham, I probably would have gone more often as I did go to Ellesmere more often.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Colin Bishop on November 08, 2018, 05:25:50 PM
Neil,

Well, I don't blame you not wanting to come all that way under those circumstances. Blackpool is a bit far for me these days. I can do Warwick in a day though despite 20% of the M25 en route.


As for being a crusty old sod I do recall you once informing me that you could start a fight in an empty room but I'm told that advancing old age has mellowed you considerably  ok2

Colin
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Neil on November 08, 2018, 05:36:06 PM
Neil,
As for being a crusty old sod I do recall you once informing me that you could start a fight in an empty room but I'm told that advancing old age has mellowed you considerably  ok2

Colin



I put it down to listening to Classic FM  instead of AC/DC, lol.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Peter Fitness on November 08, 2018, 09:42:00 PM

I put it down to listening to Classic FM  instead of AC/DC, lol.


I'm shocked Neil  :o not listening to that great Aussie rock band, you must really be getting old {-)


PS, don't tell anyone, but I'm not a big fan either %)


Peter.
Title: Re: Model Boats magazine, other model magazines.... and shows!
Post by: Neil on November 08, 2018, 10:32:10 PM

I'm shocked Neil  :o not listening to that great Aussie rock band, you must really be getting old {-)


PS, don't tell anyone, but I'm not a big fan either %)


Peter.



I am a great fan of AC/DC Peter...….the first time I ever saw them was in 1977, Canberra High school was getting rid of their 6th form [year 11/12] in a rationalisation and asked Campbell high school which I  taught at to join forces to help pay for a fledgling Australian band to play at the last gig for the students before the years were closed.........the bill for their appearance was 500$AS


The band was AC/DC...… and of course it was the original line up...……..been a fan ever since and seen them including that early gig, 5 times...…..just can't afford a ticket these days...…..£500 quid a ticket seated...….how times have changed...……..but I think they beat any American heavy metal band, hands down.