Model Boat Mayhem
The Shipyard ( Dry Dock ): Builds & Questions => Steam => Topic started by: steam up on June 22, 2018, 08:54:30 pm
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A word of warning: A friend recently purchased a gas tank from a well established firm, It arrived with a test certificate which indicated a hydraulic test to 375 psi. Before instillation in his model launch we conducted a leak test. It failed dramatically not only was the gas valve failing to seat it had a major failure of the silver solder seam about half an inch long.
Clearly this tank can not have had even the most rudimentary visual examinations let alone the hydraulic claimed by the seller.
When challenged by my friend the seller claimed that the tank had been tested to 400 psi (not the difference from the certificate figure). It took a strong email from myself before the chap provided a refunded.
I suspect that these are Chinese manufactured with the retailer falsely producing test certificates implying that a hydraulic test has been undertaken.
Imagine the consequence of installing this tank in a boat and lighting up at the pond side!!!
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Steamup..........a number of years ago, I purchased a refillable gas tank which was manufactured by a well known British manufacturer
The fault noted on day 1 was that the needle valve spindle unscrewed completely from the valve body
The manufacturer offered to post over a miniature C-Clip [Cir-clip] which had been omitted during the assembly of the valve [by a sub-contract supplier]
I declined the kind offer and posted [at my cost back to the UK] as I assumed the tank would require a retest & recertification post repair
This was completed & the Manufacturer returned the tank with a new certificate & a few fittings ...
We understand the UK recently revised certification for miniature pressure containers......there is a lengthy thread either here or on PD's on the subject......
You may well find that any valves as attached to the pressure vessel are not an element of the certification...[I will re-reread these]
I understand this may not answer either of the points you raise, however some of your colleague members will be best to clarify this for you
Derek
PS.....here is Section 7 from the UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volume 3
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The Mayhem time limit beat me Startup <*< .........
Here is Section 8 of your same UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volume 3 ......
This section would have failed a test for a tank under the Safeguard Test
Derek
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Steamup .....this is a very serious issue....
1. You could consider asking our WEB owner Martin, if he considers it appropriate for you to name [in this thread]
the manufacturer involved
2. Offering any member considering the purchase of a gas tank, to contact you via PM for your comment of manufacturer etc
If I were considering such a purchase, I would certainly be most appreciative of any good/bad experiences of others...etc
Derek
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Derek, your to be commended in your knowledge of regulation i will give you that.
But, cum-on - OP no names or facts your not helping anyone just getting something out there that could cause good traders damage or at least caution when trying to make a sale.
I might be wrong but i seem to remember there is history with you and a steam supplier, i might not have framed that accurately enough for discussion and happy to be proven wrong.
Really guys, and you wonder why no more model shops .. there is so much blatant contempt, it's pabulum ....
My thoughts only .. lol
Regards,
Kim
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Steamup .....this is a very serious issue....
1. You could consider asking our WEB owner Martin, if he considers it appropriate for you to name [in this thread]
the manufacturer involved
2. Offering any member considering the purchase of a gas tank, to contact you via PM for your comment of manufacturer etc
Yes, option 2! .... UK Law, Defamation Act 2013..... 'n all that! {:-{ :police:
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Martin ,are you knowingly condoning potential defamation.
I do worry Martin, it would be lovely to float through life with some 'wishy washy' guidelines and all in the best interest & good intentions but i worry for you.
This is the age of information and a flippant remark now could see you in court,,, not a threat an observation with good intention .... hell look at a good club insurance policy for confirmation.
Regards,
Kim
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"i seem to remember there is history with you and a steam supplier, i might not have framed that accurately"
Kim........I do not understand your comment as above......[I do receive Christmas e-mails from quite a number of model steam manufacturers]
I think we all understand that Brand copy Engineering exists in most facets of engineering, however Brand copy Certification for any products such as a pressure Vessel is Criminal
This is why you folk in UK have the UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volumes 1, 2 & 3
From this, I do not understand or see the need to why you 'muddied the waters' here......I do naturally accept the direction from Martin as below
Derek
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Living in the land of 'knock offs' we have adopted the following strategy for items where quality/safety is important.
Buy from approved manufacturers, or suppliers who buy from approved manufacturers.
Buy from flagship stores when available. The price is slightly higher, but you get after sales service, and spares support in most cases.
If you are buying from China, avoid buying from an import agent (especially if based in China), do a search for the manufacturer, you can often buy direct from the factory via the manufacturers own online shop. Or you can email them and ask them who the EU sales agent is, if they have one. You can email in English keeping emails in short simple sentences (simple present tense and don't use modal verbs) and translation is easier and less ambigous for them.
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Thanks for the information on the valve I was aware of this regarding its its relationship to the hydraulic test. The real issue was the failed silver solder and the fraudulent test certificate.
I need to emphasis that this came from a long established source which made it all the more shocking.
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Mark, thanks for posting your experience with this gas tank.
I don't understand the comments about Legal action if the supplier in questions name was posted, surely if the item was in default the supplier has no redress to the truth and it allows potential buyers who can't make the items themselves to avoid buying from this supplier.
George.
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George I would be more than happy to provide the name of the supplier however I understand the nervousness of those who run such forums. I will be confronting this individual in a very public manner at the next engineering show he attends
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PS.....here is Section 7 from the UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volume 3
As a hydraulic control systems engineer with many years experience I don't understand the logic of that test procedure.
If the tank is tested 'without fittings' it surely must have some blanks in place where the fittings would have been, otherwise it won't be able to maintain the test pressure. Those blanks will of necessity become part of the test, so why not do it with the fittings in place anyway? {:-{
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My only regret in this affair is that I failed to video the test. <*<
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KitS....if you have any concern with your UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Volumes 1, 2 & 3 , all I could suggest is for you to voice this concern at your Model Boating Club, & request that this concern together with supporting detail and qualification be presented to the Authority
Conversely, your same Model Boating Club registered Boiler Inspector may be able to resolve or answer your question
Derek
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I'm not concerned as such as I haven't the faintest idea about steam power, but it just seems odd.
We always pressure tested our systems with the whole thing assembled as one piece, even that was a ring main 500 ft long, which enabled any leaks or pressure losses to be checked only once. Hydraulic practice at the time was 1.5 times the working pressure, so a 3000 psi system would be tested to 4500 psi, and held for 20 mins or so. That gave us time to do a visual check on all the bits and pieces in one go, with enough guys on the job of course.
I appreciate that we're talking about much smaller assemblies in the model scene and leaks can be observed fairly quickly, but I don't see the logic of testing just the boiler, and then maybe having to re-test it with all the fittings in place.
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Doesn't it say 'inspected' with fittings removed before testing?
Just my observation ok2
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Normally pressure test equipment you have manafactured, with your name on it, any orafice blanked off with correct pressure tested blanks and plugs. The buyer should make sure any other parts fitted to it are pressure tested by the original manacturer........ .......anywho, if the tank has a split, due to? Is it poor quality control of has it been dropped, used as a football? I would hesitate in throwing insults at the guy in public. Ask politely for a refund/explanation......no joy then take it further............there could be a genuine reason.
Just my opinion.
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The seam was not completed and had paint applied over the finished tank..The issue is that when this was explained to him his response was that HE had carried out a hydraulic test to 400psi ( not the 375) indicated on the certificate this was clearly a lie. The gas was screaming out of the tank no way had this undergone a test
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Nearly had a heart attack when I read this in case it was one of mine - I have always tested mine to over 400psi but please do remember that the regulations quoted regarding hydraulic test do not apply to commercially made tanks, only to home made items. Thankfully not one of mine, but in rare circumstances it can happen that a SS joint will pass hydraulic and later leak. The flux can run in to a joint and can set like glass, temporarily sealing the joint which will leak later. I very much doubt this is the case here but it can happen.
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That I am sure would have been a possible explanation if we had been talking about a pin hole side fault.This tank had a visable half inch gap in the seam the gas was pouring out.
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Maybe members would like to see a close up image of the tank if possible
CheersJohn
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steam up,
not knowing how your friend received the boiler, could any of the damage have been caused in shipping?
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As stated, there could be several reasons for the problem.
The main question is, was it resolved? The answer to that is yes.
The supplier is also aware that he now possibly has a QC problem, which could be supply side or in house; or a shipping/packaging problem. I am almost certain that this is being looked into. People who supply such equipment do care about safety, they are probably more aware of the risks than the average person.
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What follows is not a rant, but personal observations on a general habit of dealing with customer problems, having dealt with things from both sides.
These are purely my personal views, and nothing to do with Mayhem.
There is sometimes the tendency to see customer service problems as being the result of a supplier side crook, or crass idiot. That is very unusual, but it sometimes happens. Sometimes small suppliers let us down, because they have bitten off more than they can chew; but they do not aim to rip us off. Sometimes suppliers seem reluctant to give a refund (sometimes because of experience with customer induced damage-esp electronics), that goes with the territory, but they usually come around.
All suppliers have problems on occasions. Some deal with them better than others. However, taking punitive measures usually does more harm than good. I have heard of some people flaming suppliers widely on the internet and harassing the supplier and their family on social media. Many people would see this as unreasonable behaviour. It also makes suppliers (normal humans) reluctant to go out of the way to help resolve the issue. Suppliers who otherwise have had a good record lose potential customers (punishment), find it harder to make a living (punishment), and maybe stop what they are doing (punishment). The upshot of it is, other modelers are also punished, as with smaller turnover the range of goods and services is reduced, and when the supplier is gone, they are gone and their goods and services too.
Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions. There are some problems that people should be made aware of. Personally I see nothing wrong with going on line and telling about a supplier problem, if it is a reasonable complaint aired reasonably. Sometimes suppliers go out of their way to fix things, and the customer who flamed them neglects to go back to the sites where the flaming was done and tell the world that the problem was happily resolved. Damage has now been done, and often no effort has been made to undo it. In the worst cases where customers have been unreasonable in their flaming, they are even less likely to go back and sort things out; either because they worked themselves up into such a frenzy that they cannot see straight, or they now feel foolish.
Just my 2c
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In my response to the original posting, I confirmed that I experienced a defect issue with my UK purchased gas tank......it was rectified amicably with the Principal of the sales supplier by direct contact, [I also understood that the defect with my gas tank would not have created a non acceptance under the Standard] so there was no question accepting the validity of the Test Certificate as originally provided and as such did not require telling the world on any WEB site
Reading the subsequent postings by Steamup, it would appear that a refund has been made.....and this may be acceptable
The issue also suggested was one of fraudulent certification .......which is not acceptable
I concur with the comment from Nigel [Pendlesteam] in that Commercially produced gas tanks [in accordance with UK Boiler Test Code 2018 - Chapter 3 - Section 2.4] are exempt from this initial certification test [but are required for testing at each 5 yearly period]
This is one anomaly which has many Boiler Inspectors questioning the intent of this specific point. A number of commercial manufacturer's submit test examples of their product to the Authority.......in this case, if the quality of the hard soldering is deemed as acceptable by review and of Drawings, design and certification of Material Standards, together both visual and NDT x-ray of the joints etc, then this manufacturer is issued with a Class Certificate for the production of these specific pressure vessels
Pendlesteam are a registered commercial enterprise and market their products in accordance with the Regulation. However the proprietor in this case also advertises that both his steam boiler and gas tanks are supplied with a Certificate in accordance with the relevant Standard
From a customers perspective the issue of the Certification is a must.....so in this case I am sure Nigel would not have needed concern as his gas tank products are tested in accordance with the Standard
So this still asks the begging question, was the gas tank as originally found to be defective ...the subject of fraudulent certification? .......
Test Certificates where correctly provided are Legal Tender in a Court of Law.....so are we sweeping this under the carpet? :o
Derek
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That is a well reasoned response and I feel a fair one.For what it is worth , I would personally never use this supplier again, I wish I had taken a photo or video of the fault, the suppliers initial response was very poor /arrogant It took a very strongly worded email pointing out that in my view this tank had not been test by him and that he had fraudulently signed a test certificate before he came around and provided a refund. Issue now resolved but as the caption for this threat says buyer beware.
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Just my 2c here too.........
For me personally I find a suppliers after care just as important as the initial buying process. There are very few places now where we can buy steam parts and I have no doubt that time will reduce this even further which is a shame.
I'm a firm believer in that things will and do go wrong, and for me personally its how the issue is resolved rather than the original issue.
I've personally seen pipework pass hydraulic tests only to fail quite shorty after due to a defective weld, even after x-ray inspection.
As for the legal side of this I have no doubt than unless someone is actually hurt our legal system would have no interest in this issue what so ever. I'm not saying this is right its just the way it is in the UK. For the record I too would be very disappointed and would want the supplier to fix the issue but would I flame them - no
Personally I would explore every avenue before mentioning it on a forum so that the supplier has every opportunity to correct any problems. I'm sorry if other members of this forum think that I'm far too laid back but this has served me well throughout my life.
Like I say just my thoughts and I'm sorry that the OP has had issues with a suppled gas tank that should have worked correctly from the off.
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While we are on the subject of "Caveat Emptor" it may be relevant to suggest a browse of the forum pages here.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1424509-John-Hemmens
seems the Americans have no inhibitions in airing their grievances.
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While we are on the subject of "Caveat Emptor" it may be relevant to suggest a browse of the forum pages here.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1424509-John-Hemmens (https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?1424509-John-Hemmens)
seems the Americans have no inhibitions in airing their grievances.
And look at the tone of the posting. They are neither ranting, flaming, nor making wild accusations. The posts are sticking to the basic facts of what has and has not happened.
No problems there.
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I hope that you are not implying a rant on my part.
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I hear no rantings here.....seriously impressed by all responses, very well reasoned. Mark, PM me if you need a gas tank that wont leak :-)
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I hear no rantings here.....seriously impressed by all responses, very well reasoned. Mark, PM me if you need a gas tank that wont leak :-)
Nigel. I remember the bespoke burner you made for me, fantastic. Even sent me an U tube clip showing the burner on full test
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Great customer service should be the expected norm sadly not always the case as this episode illustrates
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Bonjour,
In France, for ou baby model boats, we have no legacy constraint, this is why I have ordered this original gas tank which hopefully has no leak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDXPLvyf5i4&t=60s
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A very handsome tank indeed. :o
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Bonjour,
In France, for ou baby model boats, we have no legacy constraint, this is why I have ordered this original gas tank which hopefully has no leak:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDXPLvyf5i4&t=60s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDXPLvyf5i4&t=60s)
Hi Raphael.
The gas tank that you have is not a new consideration as it has been done before.
However I would advise you never to bring it to the U.K. and try to use it in a boat as you will be refused to use it.
The reason being that the end of the gas tank opposite the sight glass has been blown out under pressure during a hydraulic test and then flattened back out , not very successfully, no stays have been fitted.
It is clearly shown on your video which starts at 1 min into the show so you have to take it back to the start to see the damage.
I don't know what JMC hydraulic tested your tank to but for use in the U.K. it would need to be 400 p.s.i. ( 26.6 Bar )
For the large dia of your tank there would need to be stays fitted to stop the ends blowing. I am surprised that JMC has made the tank and delivered it to you with the damaged end to you however this may be acceptable in France but not in the U.K.as Nigel of " Pendle Steam" has said.
I would advise you that the pressure gauge fitted looks like a max of 6 Bar, if so be very careful on a very hot day as a full tank of gas exposed to the Sun will very quickly jump to 185 p.s.i. ( 12.33 Bar ) and blow your gauge.
If you don't believe me try filling your tank with gas and immerse it in a bowl of water at 20C and be very quick to remove it as the pressure will rise very fast and ruin your gauge.
I say this as I have done it and a new gauge was needed.
Regards
George.
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Unless I am mistaken our good friend Raphael is showing us a gas tank not common in the UK which feeds liquid gas out of the tank, feeding from the bottom of the tank. The liquid gas is then heated by the burner and vapourised, akin to the old parafin blowlamps. They give a far higher burn time and can be filled almost full. They dont use typically use prop/but mix which means the tank is subject to less initial pressure - or I could be completely wrong!
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Bonjour George,
JMC is a professional who tests his tanks up to 20 bars. The bulgy bottoms of the tank are not damaged at all, they are 2 mm thick (!) and especially formed on a mold with a 5 ton press. I trust them more than the ones made by Regner for example (I also have several ones, they are thinner)
The 190 g or 360 g gas bottles type "Butagaz" are 0,8 mm thick and resist up to 30 bars.
I am sorry if none of my boats may come in U.K, especially these ones : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAe7nawts1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAe7nawts1s) or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHG_VEPVVow (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHG_VEPVVow) and could you swear that none of English steam passionates use this ?
I have many tanks of this form, some have already climbed up to 10 bars in the sun or too close of the boiler and the only problem I had was a disruption of the gas regulator.
Besides this, to complete Pendlesteam information, my genetal problem is that I use the gaz in its "gas phase" so my tanks, filled with 70/30 butane/propane liquid gas become colder and colder and I lose the gas pressure. As soon as I can (room), I try to use large diameter tanks to overcome this problem without installing any heater system difficult to control.
It would be great if you could come to Atlantica steam event like Martin Baylis for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN4Y3gLdp-U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN4Y3gLdp-U) (Martin, this video is in English ok2 ) to meet other european steam passionates and share different experiences.
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I know a fellow steam lover who makes his own has tanks to a very similar design in the uk so not unique to France.
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Peter Arnot described a twin valved gas tank.One valve has an extension pipe going to the bottom of the tank the other supplies vapour only
The burner has a pre heating coil so you fire up on gas and then switch over to liquid once the burner has warmed up. I find it suffers less than other tanks from the cooling effect
The design appeared in his V4 or V2 build in one of the Model boat comics
I simply dont like the idea of a glass gauge glass on a gas tank is it to the UK recommendations Iv no idea as Im a little out of date. I appreciate that the poster resides and uses his kit in France and my likes or dislikes are of no consequence
Is there a copy of the new recommendations online just so I can get upto date or at least find out what has changed if anything
As to the leaking gas tank it makes me wonder if the new /old recommendations are of any use if manufacturers can fudge safety documentation it just seems to make the whole thing a toothless bit of bureaucracy
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I think the last sentence just about sums it up a typical document drawn up my a comity
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Do any of you gentlemen follow Keith Appleton's you channel?
A MODEL STEAM BOAT NAMED EDITH - PART #3 ( Boiler test )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbCps73R-d0
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Do any of you gentlemen follow Keith Appleton's you channel?
A MODEL STEAM BOAT NAMED EDITH - PART #3 ( Boiler test )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbCps73R-d0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbCps73R-d0)
I have been following him for a while now, very good.
Gerald.
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Bonjour Martin,
I do and, when I tried to give an opinion based on my experience which wass different of his one, I have had the impression that he did not appreciate them. So, I do not share with him anymore. For me, being a specialist should be accompanied by more humility, and I make it clear that this is my personal opinion.